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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (West Riding) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Catsclaws on Sunday 16 May 10 11:32 BST (UK)
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Please can any one help me with my Puzzle ?
I have a birth cert for my husbands Grandfather John Horace Grahame 1894
Parents are John Thompson Grahame Marine Engineer and Mary Jane Grahame ne Widdop .
He is born in Bradford.
I have 1901 census with Mary Jane Living alone with her 7 year old son Horace ( John )she is a draper at 46 Commercial rd Halifax , this states she is married
I also have 1911 census Mary Jane Grahame draper with son John Horace aged 17 at 46 Commercial Rd
she is still a draper . It states she has been married for 18 years and still is .
I have John Horace Grahame ( Son) wedding cert 1919 where it states the father to be John Grahame and a commercial Traveller but Deceased .
I have a 2nd Marriage cert of John Horace Grahame in Birmingham to Mary tunks stating that his father was John Grahame Commercial traveller ( Music)
I have The death cert of John Horace Grahame and also Mary Grahame .
But I cannot find any wedding cert between Mary Jane Widdop and John Grahame with or without an 'E'
I have bought 5 certs now
1886 Mary Widdop,1893 Mary Widdop,1881 Mary Widdop ,1898 Mary Widdop ,1888 John Grahame .
ALL are WRONG :(
I suspect my Mary Jane Widdop is the One Born in Northowram Halifax . But cant prove it till I get a marriage cert . I cant find out who my John Grahame is Either .
So you see I am very stuck . I have tried various Grahame spellings .
There is one avenue I haven't tried yet and that is looking for a marriage in other parts of the country .
Has any super sleuth out there got any ideas and can help stop me buying certs and knocking my head against a brick wall . i would be so grateful .
Regards Jean
I have however found John Grahame in Birmingham in 1901 living with a Rose Grahame and with a couple of kids . That stated he is a commercial traveller ( Draper ) and no possible wedding certificate for him and Rose . I have been down that path too .
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Hi catclaws,
In 1911 does she state how many children she had and does she give Northowram as place of birth?
Have you checked to see who she is buried with, looked for her obituary? You never know :)
There is a marriage in Halifax Sep 1/4 1881 for Mary Jane Widdop to either Matthew Scott or John Thomas Hawkridge ??? which may need further investigation. Is this the 1881 marriage cert. that you bought if so what details does it give?
Have you found her in 1881/91?
maidmarion :)
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Hi maid Marion
Yes that is one of the wedding certs that I have bought . It isnt him .
I have downloaded all the census for all the Mary Widdops born and living from 1861 onwards and by tracing each one of their lives eliminated most of them . For example Marry Widdpo of Ovendon was the 1881 Widdop so it wasnt she .
My Mary Jane said she was born in 1862 which was a bit of a fib and the nearest in age is brn 1859 in Northowram .
I suspect she was a little old nearing 30 when she got married and lied about her age . Hence she only had the one child in 1994 . This is shown to be so on the census too .
Also Northowram is on the Bradford side of Halifax. They must of moved to Bradford in that year 1893 before her child's birth and then moved back to Halifax because he was never at home ?
The Mary Widdop I think it has a father called William ( House Painter )and Moth Mary Jane Living in George street and she has a sister Martha and a brother John H and baby sister Eliza .
But I can only surmise until I see a wedding cert .
Also I cant find any trace of a death for John Grahame or even where she is interred . Im not very good at that :)
Many thanks for looking into this with me :) I have been at it over 2 years now :(
Scratching my head
Jean xx
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I cant see any sign of Mary Jane Widdop Northowram in 1881 but there is a Mary Widdop with a different Widdop family on Haly hill Its unlikely to be her because of the professions . But I cant be sure of anything :(
Tricky one isnt it ?
regards Jean
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Hi again Jean
There is a death on FreeBMD for a John T Graham in N. Bierley in the Sept quarter of 1913. 9b 11. He was 59 years old so born about 1854. Could this be him, if as his wife says he was still alive in 1911?
N. Bierley was in the West Ridng of Yorkshire.
Jan
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Hi Jean,
You mean this one......
1881 4, Ringstone, Halifax
Mary Jane Widdop H mar 52 housewife dom b.Southowram
Martha J. Widdop daur 24 asst " b.Halifax
Mary J. Widdop daur 26 manufacturing stationary asst b.Northowram
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If Mary was nearing 30 when she married then it is always possible that she was a widow and you need to be looking for a marriage to John Grahame in her first married name. That would not show on a birth certificate as it only shows maiden name. Just a thought to throw into the pot!
Andrea
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1891 Halifax Workhouse
Martha G Widdop 34 b.Halifax insane
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Hi Groom :)
Well I ruled him out because the family had been living in Halifax since at least 1901 so I cant see how he would have been registered dead in Bradford .
Hes also a little old . I get the feeling that he is younger thank Mary Jane .. because she lied about her age ?
I still think there is something odd about him being a commercial traveller .
in 1901 RG 13/2925 census there is a John Graham Commercial traveller Drapery living there with 2 children ..
Note he isn't at home in Halifax with Mary Jane and his son .
Then in the 1911 census he's not in Halifax or with Rose down in Birmingham ?
I could be totally barking up the wrong tree . Thats why I needed some fresh pair of eyes and brains on the subject in case I have got into a rut :)
Regards Jean x
:)
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Hi Marion .. yes I think that could be Mary Jane's sister Martha . That is if I have the correct Mary Jane .
:-\
Lunatic eh :(
Regards Jean x
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I suspect This is Probably my John Grahame but there is no way of proving it .
1881 census RG11/4553
Boarder at 22 years old note his job is a Drapers assistant single born in Bradford .
I need the wedding cert really dont I :(
So frustrating
Regards jean
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Hi
Surely if he was a commercial traveller this may be an explanation to why he wasn't at home and why his death is registered elsewhere. Probably best to explore fact rather than fiction even if it seems far more interesting ;)
maidmarion :)
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Hi again Jean
There is a death on FreeBMD for a John T Graham in N. Bierley in the Sept quarter of 1913. 9b 11. He was 59 years old so born about 1854. Could this be him, if as his wife says he was still alive in 1911?
N. Bierley was in the West Ridng of Yorkshire.
Jan
I would send for the certificate, but if you don't want to spend the £9 you could look for the burial of this John T and obituary.
maidmarion :)
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I agree I tend to be a bit of a romantic and sometimes surmise things .
I am going to have to wait till next month to buy any more certs as I have bought 7 this month .Bit naughty really . I'm pretty sure that The Bierley death is the wrong Graham as he is a bit old :(
NO I think you are right I have to stick to the facts and so can only keep plodding on and look for a wedding certificate to give me his fathers name and his age and where he was born . I know nothing really .
Many thanks all . If you have any ideads then Im always monitoring this thread .
Best wishes and many thanks for your kindness all
Regards Jean x
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Hi Maid Marion .. I forgot to say yes to that 1881 census . That is the one I think it is .
But then I just have to stick to facts and all I can say is that she is the one that I have not eliminated from all the certificates I sent for .
Ever onward :)
Jean x
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As you already have some marriage certs for Mary Widdop it would be worth trying to trace those couples on later census to see if they stay together. If you can't as one of the men dies then you may have a scenario where she remarries to John Grahame.
Andrea
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Good Idea Andrea never thought about that one . I shall proceed :) At least its not the usual dead end :)
Jean x Thanks for that :)
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Hi Maid Marion
I am just going through the 1891 census looking at John T Graham I thought I would just sit and trawl .
I came across John Graham High Street North Bierley born 1859 Married to Anne Graham with Children Albert 2 and Reg 4 months .
This could be the John Graham listed as died in 1913 in Bierley . But I am dismayed .. look at his occupation :( Its a DRAPER TRAVELLER . Oh My Word :( !!
Jean :(
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Hi
Interesting :) 1901 shows this....
RG13/4146/19/30
15, Baxendall St,
Annie Graham wid 37 draper b.Wisbey
Reginal Graham son 10 b."
Mabel Ann Graham daur 7 b.Bowling
Annie Winifred Graham daur 5 b.Bradford
Elizabeth Kellett mother wid 77 depending on son and daur b.Horton, blind
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Marriage 1888 Bradford
John Graham to
Annie Kellett or Sophia Barraclough
Death reg Bradford
Jun 1/4 1897
John Graham 37yrs
MODIFIED Just confirming I posted this info because catclaws mentions him in a previous post, he is not the John T Graham found by Groom.
Quote "N. Bierley in the Sept quarter of 1913. 9b 11. He was 59 years old so born about 1854."
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Hi
Interesting :) 1901 shows this....
RG13/4146/19/30
15, Baxendall St,
Annie Graham wid 37 draper b.Wisbey
So that's not the John T Graham who died in 1913 ??? ???
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Oh Dear .. Well at least it eliminates him from our enquiries . Isnt it funny how many John Grahames are travelling draper salesmen :) .
Thanks so much for all your help . At least you keep my imagination in check . Perhaps this is why it has taken so long .
It looks like that John Graham was straight up front doesnt it . Poor chap didnt last long in industrial Bradford . But not many people did .
Many thanks again :)
Jean x
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I don't know if you are still following this but I have been trawling around and found this ..
1901 Census in Birmingham has a John Graham Commercial traveller wife Rose Grahame ne Fairbank . They have a couple of toddlers Eva and Henry
He is not on the 1901 Census with Mary Jane Grahame ne Widdop and her 7 year old son up in Yorkshire .. it has her as married not widowed .
1911 Census Rose Grahame has 4 children on dead . Eva is the eldest age 12 No sign of John Graham but again her it says she is married but not widowed .
Mary Jane Grahame is living in her draper shop with her 17 year old son John Horace No Sign of John Graham and it says she is Married not widowed . I see a pattern here .
Both women say they are married but there is no sign of wedding certs for either .
1918 Rose Fairbanks gets married using her maiden name . how odd ?
1919 John Horace Grahame Gets married and on his wedding cert it says that John Thompson Grahame ( Commercial Traveller ) father is deceased .
I wonder how many more families he has created ?
Any ideas ?
BTW I have 4 Mary Jane Widdop wedding certs now and not one married to John Grahame .
Regards Jean