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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Birtwhistle on Thursday 13 May 10 22:21 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am looking for my very elusive great grandfather who I believe was in Louvain sometime after its destruction in 1914, my grandmother's middle name was Louvain - does anybody know who were the first British troops to enter Louvain?
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Hi Birtwhistle
Welcome to Rootschat :)
The way to really get good info out of this site is to put all your cards on the table to start with
Let us into the secret of all you know about the chap.
Name, age, dob, regiment, address, parents, wife, children.
Such are the minds of those who inhabit this corner of the internet, that we get satisfaction out of trying to find the man in as many places as possible, be it in Army Records, Census Records, Church Records and so on :)
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See
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,456085.0/topicseen.html
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Private 60817 in Cheshire Regt
Arrived in France 12 Sep 1914
Discharged 2 Apr 1916 under KR 392 xxi
(the transcription of his MIC gives that a s his service number, I think it is not correct and probably should be perhaps 6087)
He must have been a regular to have been in France by Sept 1914
The Cheshire Regiment
1st Battalion
August 1914 : in Londonderry. Part of 15th Brigade in 5th Division
Landed at Le Havre 16 August 1914.
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And before you ask 392 xxi is
http://www.forrestdale.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/KingsRegs1912/para-21.html
"at the termination of his engagement"
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His service number is most likely 6087 and he was with 1st Battalion, Cheshire Regiment.
To find roughly when he enlisted, you will need to find surviving service records for other Cheshires.
Phil
I'm not paying attention Corisande :)
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Oddly someone I have been researching
6062 Private John Lynch of Cheshires enlisted January 14th 1899 and landed in France on the same day 12 Sept 1914
So if your man was 6087 he would have enlisted a week or so later
At this point I lose the plot, as you say in the other thread he was born 1890. You need Birth Cert. I cannot find a BC which is odd
But there is a marriage Mar 1906 (another in 1941)
BIRTWHISTLE Austin Glossop 7b 1120
and it is probably to either Mary Emily Griffiths or Mary Elizabeth Mellor
But no recorded death
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Birth
Sep 1878
Birdwhistle Austin Ashton 8d 545
The district Ashton is an alternative name for Ashton under Lyne and it spans the boundaries of the counties of Cheshire and Lancashire
Sub-districts : Ashton Town; Audenshaw; Denton; Dukinfield; Hartshead; Knott Lanes; Lees; Mossley; Mottram; Newton; Royton; Stalybridge; Stayley
Prior to 1884, Denton and Haughton were two neighbouring townships in the County Palatine of Lancaster but on Monday, 29 September 1884 the two independent boards were amalgamated under one authority, known as the Denton and Haughton Local Board. This arrangement lasted until 1894 when a Committee of Lancashire County Council decided that the two townships should be combined under one authority, known as Denton Urban District Council. The new council absorbed the township of Haughton but only retained the name of Haughton Green, which until 1894 was part of Haughton.
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And the second marriage may be
Marriages Mar 1908
BIRDWHISTLE Austin St Asaph 11b 438
The district St Asaph spans the boundaries of the counties of Denbighshire and Flintshire
And looking at the 1911 census, this marriage is probably to HUGHES , Sarah Ann
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And the Destruction of Louvain
http://www.firstworldwar.com/battles/louvain.htm
.. the Belgian city of Louvain was the subject of mass destruction by the German army over a period of five days from 25 August 1914. The city itself fell to the German First Army on 19 August 1914...
Occupied therefore by the Germans the city was relatively peaceful for six days until 25 August. On that date German units to the rear of the city were attacked by an initially successful Belgian force advancing from Antwerp.
Panicked, those German troops under fire withdrew to Louvain, which in itself caused confusion to German soldiers stationed in the city. Shots were heard amid fearful cries that the Allies were launching a major attack.
Once it became clear however that no such Allied attack was underway or even imminent, the city's German authorities determined to exact revenge upon Louvain's citizenry, whom they were convinced that contrived the confusion that day.
The German form of retaliation was savage. For five consecutive days the city was burnt and looted. Its library of ancient manuscripts was burnt and destroyed, as was Louvain's university (along with many other public buildings). The church of St. Pierre was similarly badly damaged by fire. Citizenry of Louvain were subject to mass shootings, regardless of age or gender.
And there is more here
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13749
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And, I think finally, you were looking for a relative.
Go to GenesReunited and there is someone with Austin Birdwhistle on her tree, she appears to be Chantel Birtwistle. I would suggest you contact her and see if you can sort out what happened.
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Info is being duplicated here
See my reply above re: other thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,456085.0/topicseen.html
I have asked the moderator to merge the 2 threads
Moderator comment: not possible with so much information on each thread - please cross-refer to prevent further duplication
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:) Thank you so much, my mother will be beside herself!
Neither of the mariages are to my great grandmother -
she was called Sarah Ann Hughes - my grandmother, Winifred was born in Flintshire, I have her birth certificate registered at St Asaph. There is a Sarah Ann Hughes who married at St Asaph in 1908 - but no spouse name. Are all marriages registered ? I wondered if this could be to him, if not they never got married - no wonder her family hated him. My poor grandmother never recovered him disappearing like he did, very sad. I have seen these other two marriages - and there is an Austin Birtwhistle living in Whistable in 1928 as a fruitier, in the phone book. I will keep looking. Can anyone tell my is the only way to find out who people married is to send off for the marriage certificate? I have never done this before!
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Sorry I was so excited I hadn't read all of them! You guys are amazing - how did you get all this information. Corisande, you find the proof he was married to my great grandmother - where did you find that. I have been looking for proof of that for ages! My grandmother thought he might be a bigamist and have two families, this may be the proof of it. One day he just went off with family number one! And all the army stuff is so helpful - do you know if they did get to Louvain - my grandmother said he'd been there and obviously it had been destroyed so very resonant reason for naming her that. Thanks so much !
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;D Thank you again, I have just read the other thread - so no bigamist but his wife died - sorry for posting two threads don't know what I am doing!! So what now - how do I find where he went afterwards, I am sure he never divorced my great grandmother - so how do you trace someone who disappears - I will get on the genereunited website. What should I do now??
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!
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what should I do now
1. Make sure you contact that person on GenesReunited. It is your best hope in my opinion
2. Buy the marriage cert Marriages Mar 1908 BIRDWHISTLE Austin St Asaph 11b 438
It will tell you more about the man. What is job was, where he was living, who his father was, perhaps his age. You can buy the cert online from the General Registrars Office using that reference
3. If I were you I would buy the other marriage cert Austin Birtwhistle March qtr 1906 Glossop 7b 1120 . He may or may not have been bigamous but this would help establish whether it is the same man. The probability is that it was to Mary Emily Griffiths who died aged 23 in June qrt. 1906 in Stockport registration district. See the other thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?action=post;msg=3177207;topic=456083.15;sesc=9ff8fb515c7edef00a8c432b3bb360e1) where mersey-view has eloquently deduced that the marriage was to Mary Emily Griffiths. You can use that lot to show that is it is the same man then he did not marry bigamously the second time in 1908. Again you would need the death cert to be certain.
4. I would buy the birth cert of Births Sep 1878 BIRDWHISTLE Austin, Ashton 8d 545. Seems to be the only man in the frame. It will give you his parents
5. And the 1941 Marriage of an Austen B is also worth getting, as there is a sporting chance that he is a son of your man Marriages Apr/Jun 1941 Austin Birtwhistle married Roe Nthmbld. S. ref10b 792.
I am a bit baffled by this one in as much as I cannot find another Austin B born in records. So either it is your man marrying again at the age of 63 (possible) or in is a completely different man whose middle name was Austin, and that was what he used in life.
6. You are trying to establish here if there is one or two Austin Birtwhistle/Birdwhistle born at about that time. Putting it all together, and allowing for the rareness of the name, my working hypothesis would be that there was one man, who married twice. First wife died. Then get the certs to either prove or disprove that hypothesis.
7. Look for other siblings, I assume that the " possible daughter registered in St Asaph district in Jan Q 1915 under the surname BIRTWHISTLE (mother HUGHES) who has middle initial L." found by Manchester-rambler on the other thread is your Grandmother. Look for other children of the marriage is you do not know of any. The three I see using a wildcard search in FreeBMD are perhaps someone else gere can add to that
- Winifred L Birtwhistle Birth: Jan/ Mar 1915 - St Asaph, Denbighshire, Flintshire
- Mary Ellen Birdwhistle Birth:Apr/Jun 1908 - St Asaph, Denbighshire, Flintshire (in 1911 census)
- Sarah Rossley Birtwhistle at Llandudno in 1910 (in BMD and 1911 census)
8. Again as a working hypothesis Edwin Austin B, born 1853, married 1873, is probably the father of your man. The birth cert of Austin would tell you, and if it is get those two certs too.
9. You could get the marriage cert of Winifred L, Birtwhistle who married Hughes Jul/Sep St.Asaph 11b 393. Personally I find it is always as well to check what you have been told!
10 You could find out exactly what he was doing by reading the War Diary of the 1st Battalion Cheshire regt, which will have a day by day account of battalion life from Aug 1914 when they mobilised, till April 1916 when he was discharged. It will not be likely to mention him by name, but will tell you to the yard where they were every day. You can read it free in National Archives at Kew, or pay someone to copy it for you.
In addition the person on GenesReunited may have trees that can help
And if you have never ordered certs before online, go to this link (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/) and use a credit card to buy, you get them a few weeks later.
Genealogy is not a cheap hobby, but you are well on the way to solving the family riddle
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Put that together to get what looks to be his life (you need the certs to prove it)
1878 Born St Asaph
1899 Joined Cheshire Regt
1906 married Mary Emily Griffiths who died a few months later
1908 Jan/Mar married Sarah Ann Hughes
1908 Mary Ellen born Apr/Jun ;) at St Asaph
1910 Sarah Rossley born at Llandduno
1911 in census living at 15 Oswald Road Llandudno Jct Conway
1914 landed in France with Cheshires
1915 Winifred L born at St Asaphs
1916 discharged from Cheshires at end of service contract. He will have signed up in 1899 for so many years service and so many years in reserves.
As I understand it he disappeared at this stage!
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Thank you again. My grandmother was Winifred, and she had a younger sister Lena, so I will
check the older sister, don't know if there was a lost child - but will work on with all these
things, I really appreciate your input Corisande - thank-you.
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Final question if anyone is out there - no death certificate?
What does that mean and where do I go now?
Thanks
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If he died in UK there will be a death cert, but the spelling may not be right. You need to check all 3 of England & Wales, Scotland, Ireland - to be sure
If none then either he changed his name, or emigrated.
If he emigrated you are off on a long journey. If he emigrated then most likely places would be Australia, Canada, US or NZ (obviously there are others)
You will find very helpful people on those boards here, who have the knowledge to check if he emigrated - its an easy name to check