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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: DHLB on Thursday 13 May 10 15:10 BST (UK)
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lily/Lilian/Lillian/Liliana Maud Semmons. Born 1877, I believe. But where and to who? If anyone knows, I'd be very grateful. She's probably the Lily Semmons in the 1891 census as a servant
Dianne
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Whereabouts was she born?
This seems to be the closest to 1877 with the middle name Maud:
Births Dec 1881
Edmonton
Lillie Maud Semmens
3a 257
There are several other Lil* Sem*ns.
Have a look here:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
You will need to order the certificate to find out her parent's names.
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Hi
Tottenham registers in Edmonton registration district so that Lily Maud Semmens would be this woman.
All Hallows, Tottenham 25th December 1900
Charles Samuel Catherall 23 Bachelor Labourer 112 Somerset? Road James Catherall Factory Operative?
Lilly Maud Semmens 19 Spinster 10? ? Place, Scotland? ? James Semmens Labourer
Both signed
Witnesses James Semmens, Rosina Catherall
1891 census RG12 1070 folio 51
4 Hope Place Tottenham
James Semmens 39 Head Married Brewer's Labourer Moulton Norfolk
Susan Semmens 37 Wife Married Pulham Norfolk
Lilla Semmens 9 Daughter Tottenham
William Semmens 6 Son Tottenham
Fredric Semmens 2 Son Tottenham
As there are several Lily Semmons it helps to start from the known i.e. who she married if she married so we can go from a known and proven event - otherwise we are speculating e.g.
1891 census RG12 473 folio 87
307 Southampton Street Camberwell, London
Lilly Lemmons or Semmons 14 General Servant St Margarets, Surrey
indexed as Semmons but could equally be Lemmons.
Regards
Valda
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Thanks very much! The one marrying CS Catherall is my girl! Looks as if I was given the wrong dob if she was 19 in 1900. It would help if the family had made a decision whether it was Semmons or Semmens, but what fun would it be if it was all straightfoward? :)
Dianne
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The family DO know the correct spelling of the name of their grandmother, thank you Diane.
It is Lilian Semmons (note one L in lilian). Her birth date was correct at 1881 as she was 19 when she married Charles Samuel Catherall in 1900, (the marriage ref is 3a,680)
However, in searching for our ancestors we often find the surnames are miss spelt by the clerks filling out the forms as they were often relayed verbally by the participants.
The original derivation for the name Catherall is in fact Catterall and is a place name in Cheshire from which the family may have originated and came to England during the Norman Invasions as the name is Scandinavian in origin. Katta raile, meaning cats tail.
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Hi
Welcome to Rootschat
The signature of the marriage entry of the Tottenham parish church register in 1900 is very clearly written as
Lilly Maud Semmens
The witness James also signs Semmens.
Her birth registration is of course a clerk writing the name but it appears from the evidence of their marriage both her parents were literate so would be able to spell out their surname.
Birth registration
Births Dec 1881
SEMMENS Lillie Maud Edmonton 3a 257
and death registration (which of course she wouldn't have registered)
Lilian M Catherall aged 67
1949
Ilford
Volume 5a
Page 519
Her parents marriage taken from the actual parish register
All Hallows, Tottenham 25th April 1880
William James Semmens 28 Bachelor Labourer Tottenham James Semmens Labourer
Susan Vincent 26 Spinster Tottenham John Vincent Labourer
Both signed (William James clearly as Semmens)
Witnesses Mark Semmens and Ann Semmens (clearly signed Semmens)
The 1901 census was copied by the census enumerator from the household schedule written by someone in the household
1901 census RG13 1248 folio 24
19 Hope Place Tottenham
James Semmens 47 Head Married Labourer at Gas Works Pulham Market Norfolk
Susan Semmens 45 Wife Married Pulham Market Norfolk
William Semmens 16 Son Hairdressers assistant Tottenham Middlesex
Frederick Semmens 12 Son Tottenham Middlesex
Kate Semmens 9 Daughter Tottenham Middlesex
Bertie Semmens 3 Son Tottenham Middlesex
The 1911 census only has the household schedule, so that will be the family's writing of their surname. The census index gives William James Semmens. You will have to look at the actual written household schedule to see whether the surname is indexed correctly.
http://www.1911census.co.uk/
The 1911 census index gives Lilian Maud Catherall living in the Romford area.
PH Reaney A Dictionary of British Surnames gives the derivation of Catterall as this
Robert de Caterell 1222 (Coroners Rolls Hampshire); John de Caterhale 1332 (Subsidy Rolls Lancashire); Lawrence Cattrall 1462 (The Calverley Chaters Yorkshire); Richard Caterall 1500 (Register of the Freemen of York). From Catterall (Lancs) and, apparently , also from a place in Hants with a second element - hill. William Katerel 1203 (Assize Rolls Staffordshire) suggests also a pet form of Caterin.
Ordinary people (nearly all the original Saxon population - except the Norman nobility and the wealthier classes which some of us do descend from) adopted fixed surnames by about 1400. One of the ways they chose a surname was from the place they lived at that time.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/get_started/surnames_01.shtml
Regards
Valda
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Thanks. In self defence I might mention that the earliest record I have of a Semmens it's spelled Symonds. As a family member, I wasn't casting doubts on anyone's intelligence or social status, merely making a light-hearted comment that records and family stories aren't always 100% accurate
dianne
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Excellent summary Valda. :) Sometimes people do intentionally alter their names, change spellings etc during their own lifetime for any number of reasons .... ;)
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Valda, thank you for your very comprehensive reply, some interesting information there.It is so very easy to go off in the wrong direction isn't it?
family members of course can use 'inside knowledge' and memories of conversations with our loved ones that help us on to the right path and of course possess the original certificates.
This is a great site.
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Valda,
On the freeBMD site there is a referencce of 3a,680 for the marriage of Charles Samuel Catherall and Lilian SemmOns, since these records are typwritten can we assume that they were transcribed wrongly then? as I would have to let the site know if that is the case?
I agree there are many different spellings of names which can make it difficult to trace distant ancestors and easily go off track into a totally different family.
Lilian was age 19 shen she married in 1900 and was therefore born in 1881(3a,257) and is clearly shown in the 1901 census as living with her husband Charles, then aged 23 at 112 Somerset road, Tottenham, one of the boarders listed was 'Lloyd Wallis' who was married to Charles Catheralls sister Rosina in 1902, (3a,228).(by way of further verification).
She died age 67
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On the freeBMD site there is a referencce of 3a,680 for the marriage of Charles Samuel Catherall and Lilian SemmOns, since these records are typwritten can we assume that they were transcribed wrongly then? as I would have to let the site know if that is the case?
I agree there are many different spellings of names which can make it difficult to trace distant ancestors and easily go off track into a totally different family.
This is quite obviously the correct family and surname and the slight spelling anomaly is pretty irrelevant.
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Hi
FreeBMD has the original pages of the GRO register that has been used for transcription so you can see for yourself. Click on the squiggle to the right of the red info button next to the index entry and that will take you to the original typed entry. There seems no issue with FreeBMD's transcription.
GRO marriage certificates are copies sent to the GRO by local registrars. With the early index volumes which might go as far as 1900 clerks were employed to handwrite the indexes. When these earlier handwritten volumes began to fall apart, temps were employed to type new indexes. Their work was not checked and the old indexes were thrown away.
Regards
Valda
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thank you Valda,
I had viewed the original index for Lilian on the BMdfree site and I am afraid even though typed the O and or E is obscure in the name semmons/semmens. So I guess this is where the problem lies.
your explanation of the GRO is helpful too.
Ruskie,
I take your point that it does not matter as we know this is the correct lilian S, but when looking for her parents/ancestors then I am afraid the spelling does matter as there are many different versions of the name lillie and semons/semmons/semens/semmens and so on and it is very easy to go off researching the wrong family.
That of course does matter to the family concerned.
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Lilian was age 19 shen she married in 1900 and was therefore born in 1891(3a,257) and is clearly shown in the 1901 census as living with her husband Charles, then aged 23 at 112 Somerset road, Tottenham, one of the boarders listed was 'Lloyd Wallis' who was married to Charles Catheralls sister Rosina in 1902, (3a,228).(by way of further verification).
She died age 67
If she was born in 1891 and married in 1900 that would make her only 9 when she married :o
I think you will find that the birth was in 1881 as found by Valda at reply #5 yesterday.
Carol
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Hi Carol. :)
If she was born in 1891 and married in 1900 that would make her only 9 when she married
It said she was 9 on the 1891 census reply 2 from Valda.
Did you just added some.
Looks like noted information has got a bit confussed, as we all do at times.
Sandy
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Sandy- Carol was quoting cath's earlier post (#9) which said Lillian was born 1891.
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Hi aghadowey.
I was trying to be diplomatic and changed my wording so it
did not say Cath as putting the in-correct info.
Sorry, it seems to be my day of being mis-understood.
Sandy
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Sandy it is lovely of you - always looking to pour oil on troubled waters and be diplomatic, as in this case!
Cath, what you should do - and are almost certainly doing - is not just to rely on spellings to confirm or rule out people as possible connections to your family but to seek other corroborating evidence. As we have seen your ancestors' records might not have been written by them and they might have had little influence over them - or indeed they might not have shared your insistence on a particular spelling - so you might accidentally overlook one of your genuine rellies without meaning to!
How lucky that the two of you appear to be researching the same family though - I hope you can help each other out and possibly leave clues for other researchers who come after you!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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carol8353,
thank you, that was a typo on my part, so thanks for pointing out, I have edited now to put 1881 as DOB.
Indeed, nine would have been a little young for marriage, even in those days :o ;D ::)
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Arranroots,
wise words,but you misunderstand me? I am not insisting on a spelling? just pointing out that clearly in the BMD for the marriage of Lilian Semmons to Charles Samuel Catherall it is spelt this way. I realise her birth cert may say otherwise from the census and other sources of information and will order online now I have the reference as without doubt this is the Lilian I am after and not the 'older servant girl' Lillie mentioned by another poster..
I will be happy to share the results when they are confirmed.
You have all been so very helpful and sorry for my typo mistake, as I was just confusing the issue, but it was unintentional.
Now I have found this site I hope to return and research my husbands tree when I get time.
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Thanks Arranroots.
I just wished I could have helped the actual topic with relevant info.
Sandy
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Hi. I've been researching the Semmons/Semmens/Symonds/Symons. Even Simmonis (I think they're still mine) back to around 1600. Or could be wishful thinking, but am wiling to share these dubious findngs
DHLB