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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: little alison on Tuesday 11 May 10 11:27 BST (UK)
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I've posted about John Little from Dunbarton in that thread, but he was also in Dublin at some point and we have a photo from Stanleys of him and his wife Janet.
(any info on Stanleys ? - prob late 1800s)
He is in my uncle's memoirs as having moved to Dublin and "was able to start or acquire a firm making glass bottles, his principal customer being Guinness" (Fred Little)
.......anyone with any info, esp as to when?
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Post on Lanarkshire board-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455614.msg3169191.html#msg3169191
Post on Dumbartonshire board-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,455592.msg3169049.html#msg3169049
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not sure this this fits the timeframe you have, but Thom's 1894 directory of Dublin lists the following :
John Little, bottle manufacturer, Ringsend
Ringsend is to the east of Dublin city, on the coast.
not sure what you mean by the Stanley question - is this a photographer or family member ?
Shane
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Think I answered this in the wrong thread.
Stanley - the name of the photographer one the photo. ok?
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Think I answered this in the wrong thread.
Stanley - the name of the photographer one the photo. ok?
Is there any more than just Stanley ?
maybe part of an address, first name or name of studio...
Sometimes additional information can be found on the back of photo's or on the surround (under the frame).
Shane
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1911 census lists several Littles who were bottlemakers but differencet religions so perhaps not all connected - use advanced search option for Lit*(surname) Dublin (county) and bottle* (occupation).
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The only photographers that I see listed in Dublin at the moment with Stanley in the name is :
J.E. Stanley & Lauder Bros. photographers
22 Westmoreland St., Dublin
The first listing that I have for the combined business is in 1914, and they operated at least until 1927. Lauder brothers had several studios around Dublin since the 1870s, and in later years also operated under the business name of Lafayette.
In earlier listings (before about 1914) their businesses are listed under the name Lauder, Lauder bros or LaFeyette, with no mention of Stanley.
Shane
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Thankyou! We already knew about Lauders/Lafayette, we have a couple of later pictures by them.
This must put this photo rather earlier than I thought. No idea how long Stanleys went on after 1827?
I already was considering that maybe John Little (One) was in Dublin early on. We had thought he was in his 40s, which would make the photo date at least 1852. May not be right.
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that's 1927...
Shane
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Oh!
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Sorry. I wonder how long Stanleys went on being just Stanleys, then.
Think I ought to get this photo dated.
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Is there any other details anywhere on the photo other than just Stanley ?
I dont see any photographer business at the moment in Dublin just named Stanley, only the one as parter to Lauder brothers.
There's usually a more complete name, and address somewhere on the photo.. which would help the search
Shane
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No, it just says at the bottom left 'Stanleys' and at the right 'Dublin'. I have asked my sister if there is anything on the back, but she hasn't answered yet.
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I had a look at some other Thom's directories between the late 1840s and early 1900s for details of the Glass bottle connections, and the only mentions of John that I see are in 1904 and 1894. Note - only shop/business owners and prominent residents are listed in these directories. :
1914 - 83 Thorncastle Street, Ringsend
Hibernian Glass Bottle Works
E. & J. Burke & Co. Ltd, Wm. Hixon manager
1904 - 83 Thorncastle Street, Ringsend
Hibernian Glass Bottle Works
E. & J. Burke & Co. Ltd, Mr. Anthony Cassidy manager
John Little is listed in the index as Glass bottle manufacturer, Ringsend (not specifically mentioned at the address)
1894 - 83 Thorncastle Street, Ringsend
John Little, bottle manufacturer
Hibernian Glass Bottle Works
1884 - no 83 does not exist, and no mention of either the Hibernian Glass Bottle Works or John Little as a bottle maker.
Found a possibility for the Stanley photographer in the street listing in one edition of Thom's (1904) at the same address later listed as Stanley & Lauder :
E.J. Stanley photographer, 22 Westmoreland St
He may not have been in business under his his own name very long as an earlier directory (1894) shows the address as E. & J. Lauder (Lauder Bros) and the later listing in 1914 shown is as E.J. Stanley & Lauder Bros - it's not clear if they operated as partners or as separate businesses in the same address.
Shane
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Hm. John One dies in 1891 and is shown in Newton-le Willows before this.
John Two is in Lancashire 1871-1881 and emigrates to south Africa in 1896. He could have been in Dublin in 1894....but his son John (Three) was 25 that year and in Dublin....???
Now I'm even more puzzled about the photographer.
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If there turns out to be any further details on the photo (i.e, address or initials) it might be possible to confirm if the Stanley photographer I found is in fact the same one.
There could I suppose have been another Stanley photographer business at some stage in Dublin that didn't long enough to have been included in the trade directories, or newspaper advertisements I used to compile my list.
Shane
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I will remind my sister when she gets back from holiday about my query. Next week. Let you know. - Thanks for research.
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L.A.
Following in Shane's footprints the Irish Times contains the following for No.22 Westmoreland Street :
26-8-1881 Page 3 Police Intelligence R.E. Lauder (victim of theft)
17/12/1881 Page 3 Law Report Action against Mr Lauder for detention of a lady's bag
18-8-1882 Page 1 Advert. Edward Stanley Lauder (Jun.)
2-6-1887 Page 1 Marriage James Lauder
Regards Quaxer
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Hi Alison
I'm getting more confused again ;D
I thought we had John Two (born c. 1841) in Dublin, onto his second marriage to Isabella Barr, through the 1870s and potentially into the 1880s given some of the birth entries that have been found - including your grandfather Andrew in 1878 in Dublin.
Monica
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Earlier in this thread I suggested checking 1911 census-
1911 census lists several Littles who were bottlemakers but differencet religions so perhaps not all connected - use advanced search option for Lit*(surname) Dublin (county) and bottle* (occupation).
1911 Census- 14 Barrow St. (Pembroke West), Dublin:
Ritchie Little, 48, Church of Ireland, Scotland, bottle maker
wife Margaret Little, 43, R.C., Dublin City, married 22 years, 10 children/6 living
dau. Teresa Little, 17, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co.
son Richard Little, 12, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co., scholar
son Joseph Little, 10, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co., scholar
dau. Mary Little, 7, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co., scholar
son Samuel Little, 5, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co., scholar
dau. Grace Little, 2, Church of Ireland, Dublin Co.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000118463/
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Yes, that checks with my father's tree, except he has them in the wrong order. - John Two's grandchildren via his first wife, and her first son Richard. (Married a Margaret Tobin according to my dad).
Maybe they did all stay in Ireland until 1896, South Africa.
We don't know when they went there, though. John Two was born in Dumbarton in 1841. When he was ten they were in Glasgow (1851). In the 1861 census they were in Glasgow but John Two has left home. I have a date of 1866 for his first marriage, but it's just a note on Dad's tree.
I'm being very slow about this, but I get confused myself with the two Johns and Isabels! I have checked all this with my notes now, so I hope it's right. Please correct if you think I'm wrong!
If I could find the sisters, might even try for certificates, though it's expensive.
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Alison, remember we have John Two's first marriage to Margaret May in Glasgow in 1860 and their 1861 census entry lodging.
Their first born shows as Ritchie (who Aghadowey has found in the 1911 census) and from there children were born in Lanarkshire up to the end of 1868. The next child, Alexander, shows as born in Dublin in 1870, so Margaret and John Little look to have moved to Dublin between these two births.
Monica :)
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Yes, that's good. So he would have been in Dublin from 1868-70 until 1896. That clears my head a bit!
Means he must have married in Scotland, too, if the 1866 date is right. And married again in dublin?
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Not sure about the details of the second marriage to Isabella Barr - likely in Dublin post 1870 from what we have seen of John Two's movements. I'm not good at searching on the Irish BMDs, but hopefully it will show there on the indexes :) Nothing shows on Scotlands People.
The first marriage we had from IGI, to Margaret May, on 31 DEC 1860 High Church, Glasgow.
Monica
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The Irish Civil BMD Index on familysearch is down for maintenance, and hopefully bug-fixing, at the moment, but I'll have a look for the Little/Barr marriage in the 1870s when it's back in action
Shane
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That would be great Shane :) Last child from first marriage to Margaret May shows as born in Dec 1870 in Dublin (IGI) and then from second marriage to Isabella Barr, first child from that marriage shows as born March 1872 (IGI). Quite a tight window there ::)
Monica
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found a possible marriage cross-match :
Name: John Little
Registration District: Dublin South
Event Type: Marriage
Year: 1871
Volume Number: 7 / Page Number: 676
Name: Isabella Barr
[same index details]
see the topic 2 Minute Introduction to Irish Records (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442233.0.html) for details on searching the index, ordering certs etc..
p.s. there's two possible deaths for Margaret in 1870 that could fit, one born c1832 the other born c1842
Shane
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Thank you again - this is beginning to fall into place.
I'm trying to get organised and put all the details onto Family Record Sheets, takes a while, but I am still a beginner here....
I'm realising that what I should have done (probably) in the first place was to put this in the Common Room, but it was my first post ever, and I didn't know then that it would span so many countries!
I have been sent an extract from the Earlestown Guardian about the death of John Little (One) but will have to OCR it, post later.
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The photo has now been dated - as about 1889. Much later than we thought, so it must be John Little's son John who went to South Africa
in about 1996. Pity.
However I have found notes of my uncle Fred's where he says that John (Two) was the one who went to Dublin and made bottles for Guinness. This makes more sense than his father being there.
I am also on the trail of my grandfather's sisters in Dublin.
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Let us know how you get on Alison :) Agree with the picture dating results/ opinions that you have been given in that it is most likely to be John Two, who you know was living in Dublin from 1870 to the point he left for SA.
Monica
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I had a concentrated search today for the three sisterswho went to South Africa., and I may - may - have some results.
first, I managed at last to find the birth record that was put on here for Grace Little, using the link that 'shanew' (I think) provided. Then I found other records for Jean and Agnes.
I am not dead sure of this. I have three records like this:
Jean Little 1883
Grace Little 1885
Agnes Little 1887
All in South Dublin
In the same age order as my father’s tree....
And starting three years after Mary Graham Little was born in 1880 to Isobel.
I think John Little Two married again.
I can't find any record of that, nor a death record for Isabel.
I think these three are my grandfather's halfsisters.
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re the photographer 'Stanley' :
I've gone though the earlier directories checking for a photographer named Stanley and found nothing as a surname, but this is Thom's 1894 :
45 Sackville Street Lower
Bolger and Co. wine and spirit merchants
Cusack, Robert J. merchant
Lauder, Ed. Stanley, photogr.
The usual listing format is surname, first name(s), occupation - so I believe the Stanley is his middle name i.e. Ed. Stanley Lauder. In a separate listing a photographer named Edmund S. Lauder is shown living in Dublin.
I wonder if the Stanley visible on the photograph is the middle name of one the Lauder Brothers ?
Various Lauder brothers were involved in the photographic business in Dublin, so maybe Edmund included his middle name to help differentiate between them.
Shane
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Interesting. Looking at the photo again, I notice that the bottom half of the word 'Dublin' is cut off. Maybe the photographer went under the name of 'Stanley' to distinguish himself, or maybe it did say 'Lauder' underneath? There would then have been room for an address in smaller letters beneath 'Dublin' ?
I'll check with my sister (who scanned it) to see if there is any more, but I doubt it. She knows I want all the details!
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Following in Shane's footsteps I notice the following from the Irish Times at No.45 Lower Sackville Street
4/2/1860 (advert) Lauder Bros. -Photographers
7/12/1863 (Birth) Mr. E.S.Lauder
8/2/1877 Page 1 (Marriage) Lizzie Rhoda Stanley (dau. of Edmond Stanley Lauder)
10/3/1892 Page 3 Edmond Stanley Lauder died 29/11/1891
A small book entitled " Photography in Dublin during the Victorian Era " by Edward Chandler (no ISBN) has the Lauder frade mark on Page 18 and on Page 19 states that the brothers Edmund and James Lauder had originally come from Scotland and in 1853 had set up a studio in Capel Street.
Some assistance I hope Regards Quaxer
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However I have found notes of my uncle Fred's where he says that John (Two) was the one who went to Dublin and made bottles for Guinness.
This may be of no interest to you whatsoever but for the sake of accuracy he would have been making bottles in which Guinness was sold but not making bottles for the Guinness company. They didn't bottle their stout. At that time the chief export bottler was E & J Burke and I see above that one of the census entries seems to provide the link between Burkes and your man.
Imber
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Thanks, Imber - this is definitely of interest. From the dates I think this must be John Three, John Two's son born 1868, since John his father left Dublin in 1896 for South Africa.
When this was first posted by ShaneW (on 11 May) I wasn't far enough on to be able to connect it at all with anything I had at the time. I've since found that my uncle's notes were not all accurate and in this case I think he has confused two Johns again.
John Two the father was probably selling bottles to publicans who then filled them with Guinness, from what I find online.
John Three could well have been bottling for Guinness and have been connected with the Hibernian Glass Bottle Works, which is now very helpful.
I have done a search for the Hibernian GBW in a Dublin newspaper available via the library and I found one mention in 1883, but nothing else until 1896 and later. (Possible that it was being planned then, 1883, but I would have to check back.)
I haven't found any connection of John Two to this works, but am still trying to find out if he was at the Ringsend Bottle Works or the Irish Glass Bottle works - connections to both, all works at Ringsend.
I now don't think he remarried (25 May), I think the difficulty was that he joined the Plymouth Brethren, and after that there are no more christening records. I'm now satisfied that the three sisters I was looking for were my grandfather's full sisters.
To go back to the last post, I will investigate E & J Burke and see if there are any helpful dates there re the works.
Thanks again - Alison
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Hello All,
I haven't followed this thread in detail, but I found it while searching for info on "J.E. Stanley Photographers".
In case it is useful, I have a photo in our family collection with a nice clear logo from that photographer on the back. The photo is circa 1925, give or take a few years.
You can find it on the Flickr here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnjt/5079686679/in/set-72157625122555252/
Short URL, just in case: http://bit.ly/aF0lpm
.JT.
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Thanks for the info. I think this photographer (or family of photographers) carried on their business for a very long while! I posted the photo on 18 May 2010 on the restore and dating thread (if you want to see) and was told it was about 1889, which told me it was my ggrandfather not his father.
I now know (for the people on this thread who gave me extra info) that this John Little was actually the owner of the Hibernian Glass Bottle Works - and went bankrupt in 1893, when the works were sold to Mr Burke. He was retained as manager but not surprisingly left for SA in 1896.
- Alison.
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Thanks for the info. I think this photographer (or family of photographers) carried on their business for a very long while! I posted the photo on 18 May 2010 on the restore and dating thread (if you want to see) and was told it was about 1889, which told me it was my ggrandfather not his father.
I now know (for the people on this thread who gave me extra info) that this John Little was actually the owner of the Hibernian Glass Bottle Works - and went bankrupt in 1893, when the works were sold to Mr Burke. He was retained as manager but not surprisingly left for SA in 1896.
- Alison.
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Sorry, mucked up that last reply! Meant to say thanks for that additional info about HBW, Burkes etc. Really interesting.
Imber
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I actually know quite a lot more, having managed to contact three different distant relatives with information recently! If interested let me know - Alison.
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My family is related to John Little.
My great grandfather was Joseph Mclaren who married Jane Little, daughter of John Little. My father John Mclaren grew up in Thorncastle street in Ringsend and his father was a glass bottle maker.
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Hello Carole.
It's a while since I have been on here but I do have some information, I think.
I see this is your first post. If I remember right you can't use personal messages yet (is that right anyone?)
I don't know how much you know about your relation (and mine)...I will put some basic info about
Jane here.Jane is sometimes called Jennie or Jeannie in records.
She's in Dublin in 1901 and 1911 ( http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ )
She's in censuses from 1851 - 1871 in Glasgow.
She married Joseph McLaren in 1868 in Glasgow, and is still there in 1871.
She was at John Little's funeral in 1889, but not her husband.
....I may have more about him, but it will be in files about other people and the bottleworks, possibly a map...
You may know all this already, of course. - Alison
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Alison
I believe Joseph Mclaren born in 1811 and died 1874. He had a son also called Joseph who was born in 1846 and married a Jane Little. They had several children, one of which is John born in 1871 and he was a bottle maker in Ringsend and went there with his brothers.
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Hi Carole
Jane/ Jenny/ Jeannie Little
Born 1846 in Glasgow, Lanarkshire. Her mother was Isabella Pirrie/Perry, and she may have died at Jane’s birth. She may have been a twin (not proved). Her father remarried in 1849.
Have you any record of when she died?
I have John, Joseph and Thomas as their children. also Christian.
In 1881 they were living at 3, Cambridge Terrace, Dublin - this is from her stepmother's death certificate.
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Alison
I believe Jane Little born in 1846 and died in 1918.
Children were Thomas, Christian Pearson Mclaren, Joseph and John.
John married Catherine Breslin and they had 3 children, Jean (Jennie) born 1900, Thomas born 1905 and my father John Joseph born in 1912. The family lived in Thorncastle street, Cambridge Road and Pembroke Cottages (this was before my father was born). Jean worked in the Jacobs factory.
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I was actually asking about Isabella, Jane's mother. Her father remarried 1849, but I have found no death.
Do you know who, or if, any of the men worked in the Hibernian Bottle Factory? - Alison
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Hi Carole,
I have just sent you a private message :)
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Alison
Some of my family in Ireland did a family tree and I have been looking at it, its a bit complicated but John Little married Janet Little born 1811 and her sister Christiana married Joseph Little and she too is born in 1811. I dont see any Isabella? John and Janet appear to have had 7 children.
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Jane's mother was Isabella Pirrie/Perry, and she may have died at Jane’s birth in 1846.
(John Jnr born 1841. - I am descended from him)
John Little Snr remarried to Janet Hamilton Ritchie in 1849.
So I am descended from Isabella, not Janet.
And Janet was born in 1827 - I have a lot about her and her family.
I think bits of that tree might have to be rethought - sorry.
I've had the same with a tree my father left. He got bits wrong, it happens.
- Alison
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I'm afraid the 1851 census of the Little family in Glasgow is misleading - John and Jane should have been recorded as stepchildren of Janet.......but note that John is recorded as born in Dumbarton, and the 1841 census there shows John as a baby - Jane born after the census.
I do have a full transcript of the marriage of Joseph and 'Jeannie' on 30th October 1868, showing both sets of parents, but I am not supposed to copy it here!
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Hi Alison
So we don't know who was the natural Mother?
Obviously I have been interested in John Mclaren born in 1871 as he is my grandfather and I understand he came down from Scotland but on the Irish census he was listed as English.
Thanks
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Now you've made me think. It hadn't occurred to me that Isabella might not be the mother.
However the marriage record of Joseph and Jane/Jeannie does give all parents.
If I could send you the marriage record it is the one thing giving the answer...but I would need an email a/d to send it......if you can give me this - via PM - I will send it.