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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: br2az04 on Thursday 22 April 10 14:38 BST (UK)
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Two of my certificates came today. I ordered them on deadline day and i was in a bit of a rush so i am glad they are the right ones. Still waiting for quite a few so i can't wait until tomorrow or Saturday. ;D
It will give me something to do over the weekend!
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Hi
When did you order them?
I actually had a dream last night that my 5th April orders arrived but when I woke up no such luck.
Ben
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On the bank Holiday at about 10 minutes to 12.
I am waiting for another 32
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Still waiting for mine ordered on 4th April.
Once they have cleared those ordered prior to the price increase they will probably be sat twiddling their thumbs!
Selina
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The 2 certs ordered from GRO on 1 April arrived today. Dates produced 20 April.
The ones I ordered from Lancashire aren't coming from that office as now outside local area (as mentioned on other thread). I have had to re-order from GRO at new price.
The thing that annoys me is that I was only told this week but, when I look at the account I charged them to, the amount was refunded the same day. Had I known that on 5 April I could have re-ordered at £7.00 per cert.
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2 of my 3 arrived today :)
All ordered on the Bank Holiday Sunday
Quite a surprise on one of them
It is a marriage cert, and the groom is a widower, and fathers name isnt what i was expecting at all, and he is a Doctor......... lol after all the Ag Labs & Tailors that was quite a surprise!
I have certs number 1 & 3 - will have to wait & see how long number 2 takes to arrive!
Gaille
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some of you have been lucky, no sign of my 4 ordered on 4 April :(
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I had a refund come through today for one on which I used the checking service.
I am so going to miss that facility, when you have a common name in your tree it certainly made it easier.
Fingers crossed the other certs I ordered may be enroute :)
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I'm still waiting for quite a large number of certs; they were despatched on the 6th . . .
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I had a refund come through today for one on which I used the checking service.
I am so going to miss that facility, when you have a common name in your tree it certainly made it easier.
Fingers crossed the other certs I ordered may be enroute :)
No reason to miss it in in future they are going to obey the law and give a full refund if the checking does not match what was requested.
Cheers
Guy
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No reason to miss it in in future they are going to obey the law and give a full refund if the checking does not match what was requested.
Cheers
Guy
Well thats good news :)
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No reason to miss it in in future they are going to obey the law and give a full refund if the checking does not match what was requested.
Cheers
Guy
When is 'in future' Guy. Any idea how soon?
Susan
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Still no post yet >:(
Not sure if i want them all to come today or spread the excitement over today, Saturday and Monday ???
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I got one of four today. It is one I put an address to check against but its not the right one, so I now have the hassle of going through the complaints procedure ::)
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Hi
I recieved one of my 5th April order certs this morning. 23rd April. I am now just awaiting the other 3 but I am chuffed 1 has arrived. Has anyone else recieved any certs yet they ordered just before the rise?
Ben
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I ordered 6 on 4th April (all deaths); 3 arrived yesterday, 2 today and, fingers crossed, the last one will arrive tomorrow. I've now got another Inquest to look for......
Nanny Jan
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My remaining 3 may arrive tomorrow. ;)
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I am still waiting :'(
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Post came but no certifictates. :'(
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I received 5 death certificates this morning, now await 6 more birth/marriage.
I thought I ordered on the 4th April but on checking I see it was the 1st so has been even longer than I thought.
Bad luck Parmesan, what a nuisance!
Selina
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Its 15 days since ordering 2 certs at £9.25 a go.it looks like another case of LESS IS MORE.
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When is 'in future' Guy. Any idea how soon?
Susan
That means from now on.
The GRO have to work under regulations such as the Distance Selling Regulations 2000 and the Sale of Goods Act 1979
Section 13-(1) of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 states-
"Where there is a contract for the sale of goods by description, there is an implied condition that the goods will correspond to the description."
That means-
If you order a certificate giving a reference number and stating it is for Joe Bloggs born 31 February 1997 and the GRO send a certificate for James Bloggs 1997 or Joe Bloggs 1983 you have a right to reject those certificates as they are not fit for purpose.
By the same token the GRO cannot charge extra to ensure the certificates they provide meet the requirements of the contract of sale as the law stipulates the legal price the certificate can be sold for.
If you write in and apply for a certificate to be sent unfolded and it arrives folded, there is a breach of contract and you can refuse the certificate or even ask for compensation.
The Statutory Instrument - The Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000 may be seen at.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si200023
The Sale of Goods Act 1979 may be downloaded at
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1979a
Cheers
Guy
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My 2nd of April order arrived yesterday on the 22nd, it was supposedly dispatched on the 12th.
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3 out of the 4 certificates ordered on the 4th (late at night) arrived today, original estimated dispatch date was the 12th.
Robert
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4 ordered on line on the 5th just before the price hike. 2 arrived today and considering the huge numbers they're dealing with the last month or so I don't reckon that's at all bad
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Just curious...are you all living in England?
I live in Nova Scotia, Canada and ordered two on the last day before the price changed. I knew I'd be waiting a while but if you guys are only just getting yours then mine probably won't come until next month. lol
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Sunshinejack,
Sorry, you're probably right. I'm not in England, but the delivery was in the UK so would have been the same time. That said, the airmail ones often don't take much longer, so cross fingers..
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18 came this morning so hopefully the rest will come on Monday ;D. Having a quick look i think one of them is not for the right one, i took a gamble but 1 out of 20 is not too bad.
I like it when i recognise the name and address of the informant, it confirnms you have the right one which can be difficult if you have a common surname in london.
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Sunshinejack,
Sorry, you're probably right. I'm not in England, but the delivery was in the UK so would have been the same time. That said, the airmail ones often don't take much longer, so cross fingers..
Well they don't usually take much longer when the planes are flying ;D ;D
But when there's any nearby erupting volcanoes and a total ban on planes flying (6 days) they do tend to take a little longer :P
Carol
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Certs ordered on April 1st arrived on the 21st.
Gillg
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Ordered 1 cert on the 31st Mar arrived yesterday. When I rung they said they had 50 thousand more than normal on the last day alone. I argued that as mine were ordered before the last date they shouldnt have been affected. I nearly screamed at them but thought what is the point
Guy are you saying that they have to carry out a checking service because the latest magazine I have read "Your Family Tree" suggests that no matter what they will not check anything as they are not required to by law.
I do agree the distance selling act and the sale of good act should be invoked here
ROb
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When I rung they said they had 50 thousand more than normal on the last day alone. I argued that as mine were ordered before the last date they shouldnt have been affected.
Sorry, but I don't understand your logic there. Over the last month they have been flooded with orders, think I read somewhere they have received a year's worth of orders in one month. And you don't think this should have delayed your order? ::)
It was obvious that this would happen with people trying to beat the price increase, so no one should be surprised that there are delays. Ringing up chasing certificates will only add to the delays by tying up staff time.
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On the previous thread about this,Dawn said that last March they sent out 200,000 certs,this March they'd had 500,000 orders.
They were bound to be getting behind well before the last days orders came in.....and then everything stopped for 4 days for the Easter shutdown,so that has to be added into the equation too.
Carol
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Four of mine have turned up today hurrah :) :)
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Guy are you saying that they have to carry out a checking service because the latest magazine I have read "Your Family Tree" suggests that no matter what they will not check anything as they are not required to by law.
I do agree the distance selling act and the sale of good act should be invoked here
ROb
Yes, they have to meet the requirements of law the same as everyone else (except the Inland Revenue) in the country.
If you as a company get an order for a green bicycle and you send a red bicycle the bike is not fit for purpose and your customer is entitled to an exchange or a refund.
In the same way if you order a birth certificate for Joe Bloggs whose father was Jack Bloggs the GRO have to supply that certificate or refund the money.
It makes no matter whether you call it a checking service or ensuring the goods fit the description.
If the goods or service are/is not what was ordered the customer is entitled to an exchange or a full refund.
A partial refund is unlawful and that is why the system has been changed.
I have no doubt the GRO may try to avoid their responsibilities as many companies do but under law they have to comply.
If by some miracle the SoG or the FFHS crawl out of the cosy bed they lie in with the GRO perhaps they will start standing up for family historians but until then it is up to the individual to insist on the law being properly applied.
Cheers
Guy
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Sunshinejack,
Sorry, you're probably right. I'm not in England, but the delivery was in the UK so would have been the same time. That said, the airmail ones often don't take much longer, so cross fingers..
Well they don't usually take much longer when the planes are flying ;D ;D
But when there's any nearby erupting volcanoes and a total ban on planes flying (6 days) they do tend to take a little longer :P
Carol
lol. I actually never thought of that. Brain dead today I think. Of course with the planes grounded the air mail will have been delayed on top of waiting for my spot in the many demands at GRO. Ah well, it will be worth the wait :)
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In the same way if you order a birth certificate for Joe Bloggs whose father was Jack Bloggs the GRO have to supply that certificate or refund the money.
I see your point, Guy, but is there still a means of specifying such a reference check with online ordering? If not, I suppose one would have to order by post or telephone.
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Sloe,
At the time of my posting for the cert I was told that I would have the cert within 7 working days which was 3 days longer than normal. The fact it took 3 weeks or 15 working days is my gripe. 2 days later when I ordered my next it only said there would be severe delays due to the increase in demand that they had received yet that cert arrived in 10 days from date of order. When I rang and complained they insisted they were working on a first come first serve basis but couldn't explain why one ordered after the first arrived first.
Ordering by telephone or online will not make a bit of difference they no longer offer a checking system. I await the first they send me that is wrong (as yet though that as not been the case because for those I am not sure I go direct to the local office)
Rob
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When I rang and complained they insisted they were working on a first come first serve basis but couldn't explain why one ordered after the first arrived first.
That will be because there are different sections - not sure exactly how they divide them, whether it's by district, year range or however. They don't have everyone working together each taking the next one off the pile :)
You will have got the second one first because there were fewer orders to be processed in its section. But I don't suppose they had the time or inclination to explain it to you in detail.
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And they separate them into Birth Marriages and Deaths,so one dept would probably have been less busy than the others.
That's why the send them all in different envelopes cos they're not all produced in the same part of the Southport office ;D
Carol
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That I can accept except both were marriages lol It doesn't matter now I have both certs but the fact that one was for a client and one was for me I was hoping the clients one would arrive before mine as it was ordered first.
Rob
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Unless its got lost, looks like marriages are the most delayed. I ordered 2xB, 3xD and 1xM on 5th just before 4pm (UK time). The birth certs turned up on 21st dated 19th, the death certs turned up 22nd dated 20th. No sign of the marriage yet and I did get some post today. Judging by some of the purchase dates quoted on this thread, they may not be doing them entirely in date order. ???
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I received 4 more today, all births. Just 2 marriages outstanding now.
All ordered 1st April.
Selina
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Unless its got lost, looks like marriages are the most delayed. I ordered 2xB, 3xD and 1xM on 5th just before 4pm (UK time). The birth certs turned up on 21st dated 19th, the death certs turned up 22nd dated 20th. No sign of the marriage yet and I did get some post today. Judging by some of the purchase dates quoted on this thread, they may not be doing them entirely in date order. ???
All three of mine were Marriage Certs...............
I number each order for my reference so I know when I ordered them................. numbers 1 & 3 arrived on thursday...... 2 posts later and number 2 hasn't arrived. (lol ans 1 guess which one i really really wanted!)
Gaille
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Hi
With the recent changes to the GRO certificate ordering service, obviously the price has gone up which is depressing in itself, but do I understand it correctly in that they no longer have a reference checking service?
Also if this is the case, does anyone know of any other services that may offer a checking service before issuing a certificate?
Fue
Moderator comment: topic merged to avoid the need to repeat information which has already been included
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Hi Fue
In a word 'No' with regard to certs from the GRO, they are under no legal obligation to provide such a service and have withdrawn it. Guy has suggested a way of getting money back on inaccurate certs but this hasn't been tested (to my knowledge- feel free to comment if anyone has made such a challenge)
You may have more success ordering certs from a local reg office where you are unsure of something.
Do you have something in mind?
Dawn
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Hi Dawnsh
Many thanks for your reply, I will have to look into the local reg office method.
Yes I have been trying to narrow down my grandfather's birth certificate. After at least two years of trying to ascertain in what parish he was born, I have recently established that it was Newport but there are two likely candidates:
Births Quarter - September 1901 Doh!! I mean Qtr - December 1901
Williams Arthur Newport 11a 299 Williams Arthur Pontypool 11a 165
&
Williams Arthur Newport 11a 195 Williams Arthur Pontypool 11a 181
(He was born Llantrissant, Usk)
These are the only names that do not have a middle name and as far as I know he never had a middle name.
His parents were George Williams and Haddy Williams nee Richards.
It is such a shame that the GRO no longer offer the checking service as at long last I would be able to find out. Now with the increased charges, getting extra certs just to eliminate them is out of the question :(
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You might find this thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,441803.0.html) of interest. Local Reg Offices do vary in terms of the services offered, but many are very helpful indeed. I always apply to the local office where possible, and only use the GRO as a last resort.
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Hi
Whilst the GRO now don't officially offer a checking system there are a couple of ways to perhaps get the correct certificate.
If you apply online and say that you have the GRO reference numbers then the only information you can enter is from the GRO index, ie quarter, year, Registration District, Vol & Page numbers but if you answer that you don't have the GRO references then it takes you to a page where you can supply further information such as for a historic birth, fathers name, mothers maiden name, place of birth and date of birth, enter 1st January and they will search specified year and the year either side.
The downside is that, when things are back to normal, it will take 15 working days instead of about 3 days.
The other option is to apply by post and simply write the 'checking' information. It will be interesting to see how the GRO handle these.
Andy
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For births and deaths I use nothing but the local offices and the Welsh are the best of all. I have rung them up prior to sending for a cert to confirm that they have the correct cert. I have not yet been told that they can't confirm this like the English offices do. It is in my opinion stupid because they save me the time of writing a cheque and them time in having to post the cheque back to me
ROb
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I have not yet been told that they can't confirm this like the English offices do.
To be fair, some of them are likely to be much busier than others, and one really can't generalise. I rang West Berks Register Office last month for a certificate, and they offered to check for it on the spot, calling me back to confirm a few minutes later - and checked some details with me to make sure it was the right one. Couldn't have been more helpful.
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Another 11 came to day. ;D
I have scanned them all in now i am adding them to A*******. I have about 100 certificates that i have collected, so it is taking ages to add them and add the residence of the informants but it makes my tree a lot fuller and you get a better sense of their lives.
The scary thing is realising how many certificates i need to get. I know some people say there is no need to get all of them but it is something i want to be able to pass on. Looking back before i started i cannot believe how little i knew about my family past my grandparents. Considering 3 of my 4 grandparents are alive and so is my great grandparent it is pretty shocking.
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If your relatives are still alive should you be posting their birth or marriage certs on Ancestry?
Something to think about.
Carol
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No way, i learnt my lesson before when my tree was public before i had any documents saved. People joined up with my tree and just added all the names including people that were totally unconnected with theis.
Really cheesed me of so now only people who i invite can see them.
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Yes because Ancestry hide living details and personally I dont care because you or I could get the same information for 9 quid a time.
Rob
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My last two arrived today. All eleven were the ones I wanted which is good.
Now I wish I had ordered more but have to draw the line somewhere I suppose.
Hopefully if more people keep adding postems to FreeBMD we may be able to acquire information that way.
Selina
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My last two arrived today. One died in August 1873 and one in May 1874. The latter one died of rheumatism, heart disease and dropsy. Ouch. :o
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One of my 'deaths' confirmed what I had always been told and I understand it clearer now. Another was not and I now think my father probably worried needlessly that he might have the same thing.
Selina
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I have just spoken to GRO about a delay of an order I placed in March. Due to the increase in charges for certificates there has been a rush on GRO to beat the price rise.
My order that was due out on 30th March did not leave until 9th April. So expect about 10 days delay. If you are like me overseas expect further delays due to volcano's and everything else.
Bob...
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Hi
I ordered 3 certs on the 4th April
2 death certs were my gt gt grandparents and were dispatched 20th April Arrived 22nd April
1 marriage cert of my wife's grandparents has still not arrived on today the 27th
However my gt gt gradfather's death cert was worth it as it showed he had moved and become a colliery manager. He died about 5 years later but was buried with his wife where he used to live
I have since identified the mine where he was manager and found brief mentions in newspaper clippings
I tend not to order many death certs but it shows how it can give an extra lead
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I ordered seven certs on 23 March and six of them arrived on 23 April. I phoned them to query the missing one (the only marriage of the batch) and was told that the internal search system for marriages is still manual whereas births and deaths are electronic, so they take longer. This may help to explain some posters' queries above about marriages being delayed. (My missing cert has since arrived and thrown up some intriguing questions of parentage.)
I do also have two general questions about the service the GRO provides:
1. I take on board the explanation offered upthread for why each certificate is sent in a separate envelope, but this still seems daftly wasteful. I'm sure in the past I've ordered multiple certificates, including mixtures of Bs, Ms and Ds, and they've all arrived in the same envelope. It strikes me that if the system means they're mailed separately, then the system isn't fit for purpose and needs changing.
2. More importantly, why doesn't the GRO (E&W) offer a similar service to that of the GRO (S), of providing downloadable, uncertified, copies of the register for a modest fee? If you really need a legally admissible certified copy in Scotland you have to get one using a similar process to that in E&W, but if all you want is the information on a certificate for personal interest, you don't need this level of bombproofing. I'm 5/8 English, 1/4 Scottish and 1/8 Northern Irish, and moreover the records for my English ancestry are more complete than for my Scottish forebears, so I know a lot more about my direct ancestors and side branches in England than elsewhere. Yet I have a lot more BMD certificates for my Scottish relatives because I download them as I need them, as the cost is not too burdensome. At £7, never mind £9.25, per item in England, there's no way I'd do that. I'd imagine that plenty of other people are in the same boat. Therefore, I reckon the GRO would easily recoup its costs by offering 'uncertified certificates' for download at say £2 per item alongside the existing official service.
Does anyone know whether this has ever been mooted as a possibility by the GRO? The same goes for Northern Ireland, too.
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My last cert arrived yesterday a week later that the other two ordered the same day
Fosseway -I agree with your sentiments - I have never heard of this being a possibility.
If downloadable certs were cheaper, I could get a lot more death certs - particular those who died before a full life span
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I ordered seven certs on 23 March and six of them arrived on 23 April. I phoned them to query the missing one (the only marriage of the batch) and was told that the internal search system for marriages is still manual whereas births and deaths are electronic, so they take longer. This may help to explain some posters' queries above about marriages being delayed. (My missing cert has since arrived and thrown up some intriguing questions of parentage.)
As I have already explained.
I do also have two general questions about the service the GRO provides:
1. I take on board the explanation offered upthread for why each certificate is sent in a separate envelope, but this still seems daftly wasteful. I'm sure in the past I've ordered multiple certificates, including mixtures of Bs, Ms and Ds, and they've all arrived in the same envelope. It strikes me that if the system means they're mailed separately, then the system isn't fit for purpose and needs changing.
It is wasteful but at the same time it is very logical.
The GRO system is geared to produce the certificates in the shortest possible time.
This means that some certificates may be ready for dispatch before other certificates.
Imagine the complaints if they held back a number of certificates because one was delayed due to either having to be written by hand (due to the master being illegible) or due to having to go through a manual checking system.
2. More importantly, why doesn't the GRO (E&W) offer a similar service to that of the GRO (S), of providing downloadable, uncertified, copies of the register for a modest fee? If you really need a legally admissible certified copy in Scotland you have to get one using a similar process to that in E&W, but if all you want is the information on a certificate for personal interest, you don't need this level of bombproofing. I'm 5/8 English, 1/4 Scottish and 1/8 Northern Irish, and moreover the records for my English ancestry are more complete than for my Scottish forebears, so I know a lot more about my direct ancestors and side branches in England than elsewhere. Yet I have a lot more BMD certificates for my Scottish relatives because I download them as I need them, as the cost is not too burdensome. At £7, never mind £9.25, per item in England, there's no way I'd do that. I'd imagine that plenty of other people are in the same boat. Therefore, I reckon the GRO would easily recoup its costs by offering 'uncertified certificates' for download at say £2 per item alongside the existing official service.
Does anyone know whether this has ever been mooted as a possibility by the GRO? The same goes for Northern Ireland, too.
Yes, it has been mooted, not only by genealogists but by the GRO and by the Government but it cannot be provided.
The legislation that covers England & Wales prevents the registers being copied in such a way.
The Births and Deaths Registration Act, 1953 states-
"34(5) A certified copy of an entry in a register or in a certified copy of a register shall be deemed to be a true copy notwithstanding that it is made on a form different from that on which the original entry was made if any differences in the column headings under which the particulars appear in the original entry and the copy respectively are differences of form only and not of substance.
(6) The Registrar General shall cause any certified copy of an entry given in the General Register Office to be sealed or stamped with the seal of that Office ; and, subject to the foregoing provisions of this section, any certified copy of an entry purporting to be sealed or stamped with the said seal shall be received as evidence of the birth or death to which it relates without any further or other proof of the entry, and no certified copy purporting to have been given in the said Office shall be of any force or effect unless it is sealed or stamped as aforesaid."
It is however in theory possible to get a copy of register entry of birth, marriage or death for an event registered between 1836 and 1875 without being provided with a certified copy.
The exiting government did try to change the law with regards to the provision of certificates starting with a White Paper in 2000. Unfortunately the did not realise that they had to comply with legislation (or they did not understand the legislation) and were compelled to abandon their feeble attempt.
Since then they have been too embarrassed to try again.
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks for the clarification Guy
I don't think downloadable certs are likely to be at the top of the legislation list for a new govt
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It is wasteful but at the same time it is very logical.
The GRO system is geared to produce the certificates in the shortest possible time.
This means that some certificates may be ready for dispatch before other certificates.
Imagine the complaints if they held back a number of certificates because one was delayed due to either having to be written by hand (due to the master being illegible) or due to having to go through a manual checking system.
Fair enough, and it explains why my one marriage cert was separate from the six others as it arrived on a different day. But the other six arrived on the same day. By any standard of economy, logic and environmental sustainability, they should have gone in one envelope. As I mentioned before, they used to come together if ordered together unless there was a significant delay on one/several certs but not others.
The legislation that covers England & Wales prevents the registers being copied in such a way.
Thanks for the explanation. I must say I find the government's reasons flimsy in the extreme. They are in the position of being able to change the law if they wish -- why didn't they simply enact new legislation at the time it was discussed? I appreciate that thereafter it hasn't been a priority and is unlikely to be for the new government, which makes it all the more galling that proper action wasn't taken when the iron was hot, so to speak.
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I finally received my last 2 certs on Monday. I now have a very built up biography of my Snell ancestors from Marsh Baldon, Oxfordshire. Richard Snell died 28th August 1873 aged 85 of fracture of the hip and old age.
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Hi to all contributors.
Certs ordered through the GRO before the 6th April deadline were dated for despatch around the 12th April.
Allowing for the delays that we have all experienced, there are now very few certs overdue from that date. My modest selection of birth, marriage and death certs were all delivered by Tuesday and I was one of the last to order.
If you are based in the UK and still haven't received your certs please contact the GRO and make a complaint. I'm sure that they will be a percentage that have failed to be processed for a number of reasons including wrong reg district, volume & page number references. There may also be some outstanding where a reference check was requested. A small number may have got lost in the post.
If you are based abroad, please allow a few more days for the overseas mail backlog to be cleared caused by the Icelandic volcano erupting and causing havoc with UK airspace.
As has been stated before on similar topics of which there are a few, this topic has run its course and is now locked.
If you have any matters arising through your dealings with the GRO, other than the delays which some of you may still be experiencing, please start a new topic.
Thanks
Dawn
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Another certificate ordered from the GRO (one of three) has gone missing, and I've had to put in a complaint. They really must get their admin systems sorted out. :-\