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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: Kylie B on Monday 10 May 10 10:22 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find out more about the King family- who owned, then jointly owned with the Blackhalls, then lost to the crown due to lack of payments to the King- the estates of Barra Castle, near Old Meldrum.
It is my belief that my King family- advocates based in and around Edinburgh in the 1500's to 1600's- were descended from this family, so I am trying to find out more about the King family of Barra and their descendency.
Can anyone suggest any good resources on the net, or books that I might be able to access in australia??
Many thanks!
Kylie B
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You could try a search of google books.
Also look for the statistical account for the relative area (these are available online from the university of Edinburgh).
The former if it doesn't result in books you can read online may give you a few titles to look for in the library (appreciate that depending on where you are in Australia so the library may not be handy or particularly big).
I would expect that such information might also feature in a publication by the likes of The Spalding or Bannatyne clubs.
I may be able to check at the weekend if you don't find out what you need before then.
S_L
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Thanks S_L
I have been trawling through Google books, but so far not much luck- either with online access or books I can order via the local library.
I havnt heard of the Spalding or Bannatyne clubs- can you tell me more about them.
Thanks for any more advice or help- it is much appreciated
Kylie B
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The Spalding and Banatyne clubs are examples of societies which published historical, geographical and topographical information usually primary sources (i.e. original documents).
The national library of scotland has a list of the various clubs/societies publications here:
http://www.nls.uk/print/search/index.html
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You're in luck. :)
Castles of Aberdeenshire by Sir Andrew Leith Hay published at Aberdeen by D. Wyllie & son 1887 page 21
"The lands of Barra, or Barracht, belonged before the middle of the thirteenth century to the family of King, afterwards of Dudwick in Ellon. More than two centuries later , in 1476, James King, "in Barracht" and Alexander Seton "in Meldrum" are among the big lairds and quiet neighbours of Inverurie"
The book then continues with a one page potted summary of the King family as they are mentioned in various legal documents.
I strongly suspect the documents themselves are those which have been published by the Spalding club as part of a 4 volume work but note these are in the original latin.
Regarding a link between that King family and advocates by the name of King in Edinburgh...
The Blackhalls of that ilk and Barra, hereditary coroners and foresters of the Garioch. Alexander Morison published in Aberdeen printed for the New Spalding Club 1905
page 51
"Lastly there was a bond signed on Feb 8th, 1590-91 (Reg. Sec. Sig., 1590-91 p581-582) for Alexander Seton of Meldrum and others, including William Strachan, apparent of Tippertie, and for many other Setons, that William King of Barrach, James King burgess of Aberdeen; Alexander King, Advocate in Edinburgh, and Elizabeth Gray, relict of James King, portioner of Barra, should not be molested by the persons named."
This book makes further mention of the King family as they were the prior owners of land as you already know.
I'm not exactly sure if it fits or not but there's an entry in the Index to the register of Sasines for Aberdeen that mentions a Jean King who was the widow of an Alexander Blackhall so the two families may have been related by marriage.
There's also an interesting offshoot, in terms of later descendants, who fought alongside Charles the first in the English Civil War (amongst others).
S_L
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Thank you so much-0 so it would seem likely even that my Kings- who were advocates in Edinburgh, might well have been decended from the Kings of Barra.
I will try googling the sources you mentioned and see what I can find. It would seem my Alexander King- who was reported as 'of drydane' and advocate of edinburgh, and his brother (who was likewise reported but a commissioner) might have been sons of an Alexander King advocate in edinburgh, because I have found references to this Alexander King which are too far back to be mine (ie. circa 1550's). So perhaps Alexander King senior was from Barra?
Any ideas on where I might find out more to prove this connection??
Thanks again!
Kylie
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The protocol books of the earlier Alexander King were held by the City of Edinburgh (possibly now in the national archives of scotland):
VII. ALEXANDER KING'S Protocol Books, five volumes.
Vol. 1, from 5th April 1548 to 18th April 1550, 147 folios. The first
six folios are injured by damp.
Vol. 2, from 19th April 1550 to 23d September 1551, 167 folios.
Vol. 3, from 28th September 1551 to 4th January 1552, 143 folios.
Vol. 4, from 7th January 1552 to 1st June 1555, 236 folios.
Vol. 5, from 1st June 1555 to 5th June 1563, 218 folios.
although their purpose is strictly for legal records there's no reason not to believe that a clue might lie within them.
The list comes from the proceedings of the society of antiquaries of scotland, volume 5
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/PSAS_2002/pdf/vol_005/5_141_164.pdf
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also from the what happened to the descendants of the family of King of Barra, scroll down for James King
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/sweden/17-1.htm
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Thanks S_L
What are these Protocol books? Are they something that are avail online because I cannot get to the Scottish national archives. What are they likely to tell us about his family and connections?
Will check out the link and look for James. I have been trying to find out how William King- archibishop of Dublin is connected. Seems a brother- possibly of Alexander Snr's generation moved to Derry and that is his descent.
Ideally I am trying to find the connection of Alexander Senior of Edinburgh back to Barra, and forward to Alexander, and Adam King of Edinburgh and the elusive clues about them!!
Kylie B
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Protocol books (as far as I know) are the records of legal transactions. They'd have been produced by the advocate as a result of his work. Not availabl online that I know of unfortunately.
There is mention of Alexander King in connection with a James King being provided with a chaplainry in Glasgow. He might turn up in the Fasti* which may be online.
*Fasti Ecclesiasti Scoticanae (probably spelt wrongly as it's off the top of my head, this is one of the principal sources for information about clergy in Scotland but it probably depends on which church they belonged to).
Beyond the quote I mentioned earlier your best bet for making the connection between Alexander King senior and Barra would be to find a legal document that mentions him in connection with them.
I would have thought that making the connection between Alexander senior and Alexander junior would be more straightforward. Have you looked at Sasines for Edinburgh? Sasines are land/property transactions they normally give indications of familial connections e.g. there's definitely one which shows the connection Between Alexander King and his daughter Maria (Mary) who owned Mary King's close.
I've not come across mention of Adam yet but I haven't had a look at the Edinburgh records as yet.
S_L
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Hi S_L
THanks so very much for all this help.
I have not heard of Fasti so I will do a search and see what I can find there. My Alexander Jnr seems to have had a brother called James who was an advocate, so could well be that he also had an uncle called James...
And I have not heard of the Sasines- are they online? Again I will do a search and see what I can find.
I have the testament of Alexander Jnr which talks of heads of cattle and acres near Drydane, but there does not seem to be any mention of any family, other than naming his brother, James King advocate of Edinburgh, his executor. I wonder if the will of Alexander Snr would be any more helpful (but of course we would have to find it, and then interpret it and I had a terrible time reading Alexander Jnrs).
Kylie B
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Not sure whether its the whole thing or not but a copy of the fasti can be found at archive.org (as can the blackhall book that I mentioned earlier). The fasti ecclesiae scoticanae is specific to the Church of Scotland.
According to a protocol book that I've got a copy of they were essentially abstracts of legal deeds and transactions.
One of the King family of Barra was an advocate in Aberdeen, I can't be certain but I think his name was Andrew. He's listed in the Spalding club publication that lists Advocates in Aberdeen. It was only a one line entry but apparently he was thrown out after he slew a member of the Seton family. I believe that had a lot to do with the eventual transfer of land ownership.
Not certain if the Sasines themselves are online, I suspect that the indexes to them might be as they were printed some time ago and may turn up in either google books or archive.org.
Another source which might be helpful in providing clues is the catalogue of the national archives of scotland (www.nas.gov.uk). You occassionally get a summary of the item's content rather than a single line entry.
I don't know if there are records available for early advocates in Edinburgh. The society of advocates was created some time later.
S_L
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Thanks so much- will see what i can find
Kylie B
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Inverurie book
http://www.archive.org/details/inverurieearldom00daviuoft
page 103 is a brief, potted history of the KIng family. First mention I've seen of a Ross King.
No mention of a link but it might help when looking elsewhere and trying to make sense of it all.
S_L
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Thanks for this one.
It at least gives a direct lineage, although from reading it, I suspect my lot must be from perhaps a brother of William Snr, father of James, or of James.
I have Alexander Snr in Edinburgh as an advocate around the 1550's, so he could have been a brother of William King- served as the heir of James King in 1547, or perhaps a brother of William King- heir of James King in 1577.
So- lots more clues needed to piece them all together.
Also- have found a reference to a James King who was an advocate in Aberdeen- might be related to the Adam king of Aberdeen you found??
Kylie B
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I'll check again for the exact details for the advocate in Aberdeen. Not sure that the publication is available online or not.
S_L
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THanks!
I have been checking out a eerage of Scotland book that mentions the King family.
From what I can gather William King owned land near Aberdeen, and in Barra in the 1440's. His son James inherited and passed Barra to his son William in 1507.
William married Marjory Barclay. They had a son William who became heir in 1547. That William married Janet Grier and they had 2 sons- JOhn and James.
James inherited Barra in 1548 (this seems very close to his fathers inheritance only the year before....). James had 4 sons- William, James (advocate of Aberdeen), Alexander (advocate of Edinburgh, who was murdered by George and John Seton- and had 3 known sons- Alexander, Adam and James, all advocates), and finally David of Orkney.
So as far as I can tell, my Alexander was the grandson of Alexander killed by the Setons.....That Alexander married a Janet Douglas, and was also known as Alexander King of Burnhouse. HIs sons were Alexander, Adam and James. Alexander Jnr then had sons- Alexander of Drydane, Adam and James, and possibly a daughter Janet who married James Mossman. Alexander of Drydane then had at least one daughter, Margaret, whom I beleive married David Heriott the goldsmith....or perhaps I have one too many generations in there...
???
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which peerage book?
I came across your other thread about Dryden, if you still need the testament's transcribed then let me know. I'm no expert but I'm happy to have a go and do have a textbook that can help.
S_L
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Hi
It was The Scots Peerage Sir robert Douglas's Peerage of Scotland Published 1906.
Any idea how reliable these were/are?
I would love some help deciphering the testaments- thanks so much. I have been trying but really without much success. So I still dont know if there is anything in there that would be a clue or not. Will send you a personal message- thanks again!
Kylie B
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clearing up a couple of points.
I mentioned earlier :
"I strongly suspect the documents themselves are those which have been published by the Spalding club as part of a 4 volume work but note these are in the original latin."
The 4 volume work is the 'Antiquities of the shire of Aberdeen and Banff"
In "The Society of Advocates in Aberdeen" page 238
Kyng, Andrew 1568
Burgess of Aberdeen, Burgh agent *
Died Subsequent to October, 1617
* Cooper's "Cartularium Ecclesiae Sanct Nicholai," vol 2 p295
That Kyng's surroundings were not always of the most peaceful character is show in the following extract from the Kirk and Bridge Work Accounts - "1549, August 13th - Andro Meldrum wes sclane in Andro Kyng yard, and bureit in ye kirk."
That was the advocate and killing I referred to earlier BUT that isn't the same killing that's referred to in other works
New item
There are lists of burgesses of Aberdeen which include mention of an Alexander King e.g.
Alexander King, burgess
witness to a charter 16th May 1518
Alexander King, sergeant
witness to charter
31st Jan 1540
sadly no context with which to associate him with the Kings of Barra though there is mention later of a John King brother of General Sir James King, a Lt Col James King and oddly a Hans Jacob King
Regarding the reliability of the peerage work, I've no idea but like everything else it would be limited to what information was available/known to the author and how true that information actually was.
S_L
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Hi there
So if I am reading this right- then Andrew King killed Andrew Meldrum?
This was quite a clan fued the Kings had with the Meldrums and Setons wasnt it.....
Aberdeen is very close to Barra, so the connection of the Barra Kings to those of Aberdeen seems likely. I can only assume they then moved to Edinburgh because this was the bigger and more prosperous city?
Do you think the references you found to an Alexander King in Aberdeen in 1518 could have been Alexander King of Burnhouse, who was murdered by George and John Seton?? And supposed gradfather of Alexander of Drydane?
I think I read in another Peerage book about a brother John of the famous General JAmes King...but have not heard of LT Col James King- perhaps his nephew as I do not believe Gneral Jame sKing had any surviving children? Nd HAns Jacob King is an interesting one....General King seemed to have close ties to Sweden- perhaps a connection there?
More nd more questions!!
Kylie B
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"Andrew King killed Andrew Meldrum?"
Not 100% certain, it isn't explicitly written to say that.
I've not looked at the burgess records before so I'll check to see if there's further details.
I wondered the same thing about Hans Jacob.
S_L
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These clan murders have me stumped...
From reading the peerage books I have found, and cross referencing them, there are a few date differences, and a few spouse differences, but the men of the King clan seem to be reported consistently- and it would seem that in one generation, several Kings killed Alexander Seton of Meldrum, then 2 generations later, they killed another Alexander Seton of meldrum- called the young laird of Meldrum and presumably the grandson of the first.
Then we have George and John Meldrum killing Alexander King, son of James King of Barra....so clearly the families were not close. But I am intrigued that I cannot find more about the 'slayings'....were inter-clan feuds so common, that such murders were not documented? I have seen mention of different members of the 2 clans gaining dispensation from the King to avoid death themselves....would such proceedings be documented somewhere?
ANd then of course there is Andrew King of Aberdeen who was apparently thrown out as advocate after murdering someone else from the Seton family
Kylie B
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Regarding whether these incidents were documented. I'm sure they probably were but there's only so much that has survived. For example in the chartullarium book I quoted earlier there is a passage that explains that many earlier records were lost in a fire. Similarly I read recently of some scottish records which were transported to Paris and survived for a few centuries before being destroyed there.
Put simply, not everything survives.
S_L
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Ah yes....shame isnt it!
Now here is an intersting bit of info I found last night- Drydane (south of Edinburgh) was originally owned by George Seton, Laird of Meldrum. He sold the land to the Sinclairs, who must have then sold part of the lands to Alexander and Adam King and they then sold it to John Nicolson.
So it would seem the Kings bought land originally owned by their enemies, the Setons of Meldrum. Now thats a coincidence isnt it??
Have you been able to find any references that might give us a clue as to when Alexander King (son of James of Barra) was born, or when he married Janet Douglas??
I am trying to work out- based on the dates we have for Alexander and Adam of Drydane, and other family references from the Nat Archives, whether Alexander and Adam of Drydane were sons of Alexander Of Burnhouse (son of James), or in fact sons of Alexander of Drydane....getting complicated isnt it?!
I have Alexander King of Drydane dying in 1618.
Adam King dying 1620. Married Margaret Vaws/Vans in 1608
James King advoccate dying 1630, married Janet Douglas 1603
Then there is Marie King- daughter of Alexander King Advocate (but which one) marrying Thomas Nimok in 1616 and dying 1645
Margaret King, daughter of Alexander King advocate (again which one) marrying David heriott circa 1595
Janet King daughter of Elxander King Advocate (which on??) marrying James Mossman in 1570.....
!!!!
Kylie B
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Can anyone help find this article please?? I have been told about it- apparently it is about Adam King, brother of Alexander and son of James, but I cannot find it online, and my local lib says it is not a publication available here.
DURKAN, John. “Adam King: A Church Papist”. Innes Review. Volume 52, Number 2 (2001)
Pages 195-199: article on Adam King
THanks very much!!
Kylie B
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blimey!
hope you can view this, let me know if you can't - will make a difference from reading books
https://aulib.abdn.ac.uk/F/NR872D5LSYR9XJI4X9TEED9RP3U51MINFDHNKPEY9AFAA5ERTA-19430?func=full-set-set&set_number=001872&set_entry=000028&format=999
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Wow! The references says it is the family papers of the King family of Barra and somewhere else.
I dont suppose there is any way of viewing these digitally?? It says there are 4 boxes...so a bit much to request a copy be posted out sadly.
How exciting though- any suggestions on how to get hold of this info/these docs??
Kylie B
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I wouldn't expect to find them available online.
The description mentions a list which will probably be a summary of the box contents. Depending on the reasons and time spent on creating it the detail may vary from something very informative to the likes of "box 2 - 4 bundles misc deeds".
That would be the starting point but that's only after you work out exactly what you want to find out from the papers and a rough idea of what time frame is relevant. The most recent papers may possibly be embargoed (e.g. 1935 papers not for public access until 2035) or their may be restrictions on who can view them. The catalogue entry doesn't suggest this but it's something you'd only find out by asking.
I might be able to go along, I worked there once in the distant past.
I would mail their address and ask whether it's possible to get a copy of the item list or not as a starting point.
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/historic/speclib_page.shtml
S_L
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THanks- will do and will let you know!
Kylie B
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In regards to William King, Bishop of Derry - Archbishop of Dublin and his relationship to the Kings of Barra, you can find a good amount of information in his autobiography:
"A great archbishop of Dublin, William King, D.D., 1650-1729" by William King
Here is the link at Google Books:
http://books.google.com/books?id=N0ANAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA89&dq=Archbishop+William+King+Derry&hl=en&ei=YYLiTKjuMYW8lQew2ojGAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Archbishop%20William%20King%20Derry&f=false
I, too am researching the Kings of Castle Barra. My ancestors are somehow related to William King, D.D. I have found that the King family lore states that the origins of the King surname originated from a man named MacEntore who upon saving the life of his sovereign Lord was granted lands in Northeast Scotland where Castle Barra was built. MacEntore took on the surname King thus beginning the hereditary lineage of the King family of that area. I have found numerous armorial bearings throughout Scotland, England and Ireland relating to the Kings of Barra. I would love to try and find more information on this MacEntore who I believed came from Barra, in the Hebrides (the obvious association of names).
MK
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Thanks MK
I will check it out.
I am really struggling with my King family- they appear to be connected to the family in Barra, but so far I cannot separate the 2 families in Edinburgh, let alone find the link back to aberdeen as yet.
Will keep working away- good luck with your search too!
Kylie B
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Hi, I've been researching my King family in Aberdeen. I have got to a Robert King b.1792-96. He was married to Mary Christie. I have quiet a lot of names, if I can be of any help let me know. :)
Nikki.
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Kylie B,
I have stumbled onto your comments through Google. I have joined RootsChat just to ask if you ever filled out the Kings of Barra family tree. I have a great interest in this era as I am descended from a branch of the Barra Kings that migrated to Ireland and hence to Australia. I am trying to find the King who migrated to Corrard Ireland.
I have found lots of info on the family around 1600, mainly because Sir James King, later Baron Eythin, was very famous and there are lots of references about his efforts in the Civil War.
Anyone who can link to Sir James King's mother can prove they are descended from Scottish Royalty and English Royalty and thence to most of the european thrones.
I have tried to use Private Messages but the icon for 'New Msg' does not appear.
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Hi Rex77
You need to have posted at least three times to activate the PM system.
If you reply to this is should allow you to use the PM system
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Thank you for your tip on Personal Messages.