RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: suehogben on Thursday 29 April 10 14:06 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I'm trying to get any info that I can on my grandfather Harry Powis, which as a family we know very little about.
We know he was in the AIF, and returned to Australia 1920(we assume) Melbourne, he was listed as sailing on the Kingoma, but on the ? list, where it has date of return, there is no date, so maybe he didn't sail after all at that time?
He'd met and married my Grandmother Nellie Sowley (married name Furby) while back here in Weymouth, in the UK on leaves after being shot while in fighting Fromelle, they went on to have 2 more children ( they had an affair, and she already had a child by her first husband, Furby, so he sued them for a divorce)
I only have my Grandfathers war records to go on so far, he was 996 in the AIF, first of the 8th Batt, then briefly the 60th, then finished his time in the 59th Batt.
He was born England, Hackney(so he says) but as of yet have been unable to find him, or his family in any census!He was also a clerk. There is one Harry Powis born around that time, but he's not the right one, and he died 2 years
At the moment I'm trying to trace Harry after he returned to Australia in 1920, he married while back in England, and also had a family, but due to complicated circumstances, they never returned to Australia with him, and all contact was lost, my mother and her siblings grew up thinking he's died in the war.
I first find him in 1924 .
I've found my Harry in 1925 at 16 Laburnham St Melbourne living with Arthur and Issabelle Irwin (Arthur was also born in Hackney, and joined about the same time as Harry, so presumably they knew each other?)
1926 Arthur and Harry are still at no 16, but no Isabbelle
1927 Arthur and Henry are still at no 16, but Isabelle is at no 27
1928 Arthur is at 16 still, Harry and Isabelle are at no 27?
1931 Arthur is at no 16, Harry and Isabelle no 27!
I haven't found Harry again until 1935, where he's living now at 408 william street, and is there in 1936, haven't looked for Isabelle yet.
1937 Harry's moved to 432 Lonsdale st (again haven't looked for Isabelle)
Haven't found him between 1937 and 1943
1943-1954 he's now living at 317 Beaconsfield Parade.
So presumably Harry knew Arthur when he moved in to live with them? Not sure what to make of his move to no 27 where Isabelle moved to previously.
Would love to hear from anyone that knew of stories or knowledge of him, as i know absolutely nothing at all.
Though i have to say that the fact that he's moved in with another soldier that he'd served with makes me more confident that this Harry I'm following is in fact my Grandfather.
I have been told that there are further records for him, but am having major problems getting anything from them, this is an e-mail that i had from the dept of Veteran affairs; (Good service, they replied promptly every time)
Good afternoon, Ms Hogben
Our records indicate that an old client file for Harry Powis (S/Sgt, 59th Btn, 5th Div - service number: 996) does exist. You may obtain access to this file (under the Archives Act 1983 - as all the records on the file are >30 years old) by making application to the National Archives of Australia (NAA).
Their contact details are: National Archives of Australia, PO Box 7425, Canberra Mail Centre, ACT, 2610. Their phone and fax numbers are: 1300 886 881 and 1300886 882 respectively. Alternatively, you can email them at: ref[at]naa.gov.au
When you contact NAA, you will need to specify that the DVA WW1 client file is held in the Burwood repository in Melbourne. You will also need to provide the following information for the NAA staff to locate the file:
DVA FILE NUMBER: R98858
CONSIGNMENT NUMBER: B73/69
BOX NUMBER: 136
The service dossiers for WW1 veterans are also available from NAA, but you should note that these records are separate and distinct from any DVA files. To obtain a copy of the service dossier, an email should be sent to the NAA address as above, and specify that you would like a copy of the WW1 service dossier. Your grandfather's WW1 service number was 996.
National Archives should be able to advise you of any fees or charges that may apply to requests for access to information held by them.
I trust that this information will assist you with your research. If I can be of any further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards
Rhonda Blair
Senior Freedom of Information Officer
National FOI Processing Team
Department of Veterans' Affairs
P: 02 9213 7778 | F: 02 9213 7400
(Internal: x27778)
e-mail: Rhonda.Blair[at]dva.gov.au
Problem is I've contacted the NAA quite a few times, and am getting no joy(or replies).
I had one reply after a few weeks telling me about Harry's war records, which I had already said that I had, so I wrote back explaining this, and what I'm really afer (his care files) but have had no reply now since the 9th april. Is this normal?
Don't know how else to get hold of these records if they're not responding.
Any suggestions on a postcard please....
Sue hogben
-
Hi Sue,
In the weeks leading up to 25 April, each year, the National Archives of Australia have a huge workload trying to cope with increasing interest about WW1 and WW2 and archival records. Somewhere on one of the pages of their website I think I remember reading about a 30 day delay in some NON urgent matters but I could be wrong)...
If I were chasing a Dept of Vet Affairs file via email ... this is how I would word the request
(Salutations etc)
National Archives of Australia
Re DVA WW1 Client file at your respository Burwood, MELBOURNE, specifically
DVA FILE NUMBER: R98858
CONSIGNMENT NUMBER: B73/69
BOX NUMBER: 136
Detail : an old client file for Harry Powis (S/Sgt, 59th Btn, 5th Div - service number: 996)
I have been advised that as this file is more than thirty years old, I may obtain access to this file. This advice was provided by Senior Freedom of Information Officer National FOI Processing Team Department of Veterans' Affairs.
I seek access to this file. Please advise me by return email, How I obtain access.
(Felicitations)
Of course the wording is up to you, and its only my own opinion as to how to proceed. I'm not (and have never been) employed by either Vet Affairs or the Archives.
Cheers, JM
-
Hi there,
At first glance, TWO chaps named Harry Powis who served in the AIF in WW1.
AA http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=8023047&I=1&SE=1
BB http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=8023046&I=1&SE=1
Notice that there's ONLY One digit difference in their archived files. So, take care ;)
AA One was born Staffordshire, and when he enlisted he was aged 38 years, 8 months. His N of K was his wife, Olive, who lived in Victoria (Australia). He enlisted 14 March 1917. His service number was 6870. He was 5 ft 7 1/2 inches tall.
BB One was born Hackney, and when he enlisted he was aged 26 years 7 months, was 5 ft 7 inches tall. Next of K was his mother, in Essex. His service number was 996.
AA had dark brown hair, grey eyes and a scar on left wrist, 5 Vaccination scars on left arm
BB had "scanty" brown hair, grey eyes and a scar on left knee, 3 Vaccination scars on right arm
They had different CHEST measurements ;) ;D
Also, BB was in Auxiliary Hospital in England from Oct 1916 until March 1918 and
AA was a member of the Military Police in Melbourne Australia from March 1916 until embarking for Devonport England in May 1917.
"BB" received his discharge in Australia on 28 Sept 1920 at 3rd Military District arriving back on the "Kigoma" HE HAD MARRIED in England 17 Oct 1919 Nellie Louise FURBY.
"AA" received his discharge in Australia on 12 May 1919 at 3rd Military District arriving back on the "Port Napier"
Hope that helps ! Although it does not show which Harry was the one living in 1925 at 16 Laburnham St Melbourne living with Arthur and Issabelle Irwin
Cheers, JM
-
Hello Sue
We can see by the records on the NAA that your Harry Powis was the chap with the regimental number 996
Two deaths in Victoria
POWIS Harold died aged 75 in 1957 at Melbourne reg no 12614
Parents details unknown
Buried in the Melbourne Cemetery
Church of England - Monumental Compartment P Section 12 Grave 29
buried 10/10/1957
POWIS Harry died aged 71 in 1948 at Bleigh reg no 5176
Father Edward POWIS mother Mary Tucket
Jenn
-
There is a tree on Ancestry showing Harry.
Says father is Edward John POWIS b 1860
Mother not named.
Annie
-
I wonder if this was your Harry in 1891 Census
Name: Henry C Powis
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Alice M
born: Hackney, London, England
Civil parish: Bethnal Green
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Thomas Powis 33
Alice M D Powis 32
Thomas L Powis 6
Henry C Powis 4
Alfred F Powis 1
Cheers
Annie
-
1901 census
Same family but listed as POVIS
Annie
-
Hello there Annie
There is a copy of his marriage crtificate in his WW1 records and that has his father as Edward John Powis (deceased) metal buyer.
thanks Jenn
-
Thanks Jenn
Back to the drawing board then:D
Annie
-
Thank you for all your prompt and helpful replies....I've been searching for Harry for a long while, and gave up for a couple of years, just taking up the reins again this autumn....whereupon some kind soul pointed me in the direction of the Harry Powis in the electoral rolls.
I have both death certs for Harry Powis, and got really excited when I saw the one with his father as an Edward Powis, but as he's married, he's not my Harry, he is the other Harry that joined at the same time.
Luckily I know that Harry Powis 996 is definitely mine, as the marriage to my grandmother is in the war records, the other Harry married an Olive?(I think) and she's named on the death cert of the second Harry.
Also, because I've been following this Harry (who I' almost certain is mine ) up until 1954 via the electoral rolls, this sort of confirms he is mine.
Luckily there only seems to be only 2 Harry Powis's in the Melbourne area , and the other one's the married chap with wife Olive, I just need those records from the NAA to try and confirm an address that I'm following the right man....
Thanks for the info that they have a long turn around time for documents at this time of year, was just a bit surprised that I hadn't received any acknowledgement of my query, or estimates of how much it will cost, but I'll give that a bit longer then....I'm just so impatient, I feel that he's just within my grasp at last! Who knows, there might even be some more info there about his family back home. (Would I really be that lucky!)
I think that tree on Ancesty might be mine.
The tantalising thing is also, someone pointed me towards a posting about a family of Arthur and Issabelle Irwin, who Harry moves in with at one stage, but then oddly the wife moves out, followed next year by Harry, who moves into where she lives?
I was hoping that someone might see the message that I'd left on their posting re Harry, and get back to me, but maybe he was bad news in the family? and they want no contact....who knows....but Harry, and this Arthur Irwin probably knew each other in england, they joined up at the same time, and I think they sailed at the same time, came from the same area, and I believe they were at one time in the same batt.
The trying to sort out who he was and where he came from in England is even more perplexing...
I have an address given in 1914 as NOK, and just listed as Mrs Powis, no christian name, so presumably his fathers already died, it's given as 20 Vincents Road, Highams Park, Chingford, Essex..
I have found this address in the 1911 census, and there a Coats family living there ,oddly enough, there are Coates in the family going back on the maternal side (but slight spelling diference, coincidence?)
A lodger, Mary Beard, aged 57, widow, has no children actually listed, from Machester, but a quick check on Ancestry has found a Mary Beard, who has an adopted Harry, born about the right age (different surname)....trying to find her marriage to see what her maiden name was....could be Powis? If he was adopted, not sure how to persue that one either....
Also, an Emma Harris, housekeeper with 2 children, aged 59, looks like born in Essex, not got around to checking her out yet.
I keep coming back to the family tale that Harry Powis wasn't his real name, and the longer it's going on that I can't seem to find the right fit for him and his family, the more I'm convinced that maybe this bit was true after all.
Not sure how I can proceed with this then..
I've even wondered about going to a spirtualist meeting to see if he'd be around to give me a few pointers!...shows how desperate I am!!!
-
I shall ask one of our fellow RCERS who pops into the national library to see if there is perhaps a death notice for Harry Powis just to see who is mentioned etc . worth a go
thanks Jenn
-
Thank you Jenn.
Much appreciated.
Sue
-
POWIS Harry died aged 71 in 1948 at Bleigh reg no 5176
Father Edward POWIS mother Mary Tucket
This is the Harry POWIS that was married to Olive, they are buried together at the Preston Cemetery:
http://www.prestoncemetery.org/search/index.php
-
POWIS Harold died aged 75 in 1957 at Melbourne reg no 12614 Parents details unknown
Buried in the Melbourne Cemetery Church of England - Monumental Compartment P Section 12 Grave 29 buried 10/10/1957
This Harold POWIS is actually buried at Springvale Botanical Cemetery not Melbourne Cemetery.
No other person buried in the same grave.
-
POWIS Harold died aged 75 in 1957 at Melbourne reg no 12614 Parents details unknown
Buried in the Melbourne Cemetery Church of England - Monumental Compartment P Section 12 Grave 29 buried 10/10/1957
This Harold POWIS is actually buried at Springvale Botanical Cemetery not Melbourne Cemetery.
No other person buried in the same grave.
http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php
sincere apologies Sue
my mistake Merlin is right not the Melbourne cemetery
should have added the link in the detailing of his grave.
Merlin, did you contact the cemetery to see if anyone one else was buried with him?
Jenn
-
Hmm - well this still doesn't rule him out - and again, seems he has no family, only friends but not the Irwins!
Melbourne Sun-Pictorial, Thursday 10 October, 1957 (Death Notices)
POWIS - On October 8 at the Alfred Hospital, Harold Powis of 317 Beaconsfield Parade, St Kilda, the sincere friend of Eileen Hall, Myra Lynch and Marie McCahill, late 1st AIF. Remains at R Mackenzies' chapel for private burial.
No funeral notice and no other notices that I could see 9-11 October.
I wonder if Springvale would tell you who paid for the grave?
Electoral Roll for 1954 shows him at the above address listed as Harry POWIS, clerk
I can't identify any of the women on the electoral roll for 1954 - McCahill not there at all and the other two have too many possibles to identify.
There is still a Roderick Mackenzie Undertakers at 199 Clarendon St
South Melbourne - some undertakers have records that they will share.
Cheers, Judith
-
Thanks Jud for doing that lookup I am sure Sue will be please to read it.
I contacted Springvale and they say no oneelse is in the grave and the only other information was the funeral was arranged by an E. HULL
Now I am wondering if this is Eileen HALL?
trying to find out who these ladies were is not that easy however on th 1954 Electoral Roll
Eileen Margaret HALL is residing as the same address as Harry POWIs ie 317 Beaconsfield Parade
MCCAHILL Marie Therese aged 53 died in 1976 aged 53 at Elst reg no 16265
father Samuel ESTLER mother Eileen Lynch
HALL Eileen Margaret died aged 75 in 1968 at Prahnan reg no 4234
Father Lynch Daniel mother Margaret Mary Ryan
Jenn
-
There is a huge thread that has already given Sue all this information... so I hope we're not just going over the same territory ::)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08me/
-
Thanks for that Link Merlin
I have read through it all but by the looks of it Sue has received some or if not all this information from there
Kind thoughts Jenn
-
Thank you, thank you, so much for the death notice, I,m 99% certain thats my Harry, right address for the one I've been following in the rolls.
What a huge comfort that he didn't die friendless, strange though that they are all women? That was my biggest worry that he had died alone and friendless.
I too reckon that the person who arranged the funeral must be Eileen, and not a he. I'll get in touch with the funeral home to see if they have any more information.
Do you think she would have been a landlady?Or a lady friend?
Is there any way that I can check if Eileen Hall had family? Children that might just remember stories about Harry? Know what happened to his possessions, (not that I want them, just like to know if there were any items such as his medals) have photos?
Here in the UK, we can use censuses to sort of trace the families, not sure how it works in Australia.
I'm awaiting more info from the NAA, his care records for after 1920, so there may be more info on there.
I'll also try a posting in the womens surname to see if there's anyone researching them and their families who might have any sort of knowledge.
-
There are 2 trees on Ancestry with Arthur Henry Irwin and Izabelle Kiligian. Seem to come from London and children born Melbourne. Maybe worth a message to the tree owners ;)
Annie
-
re my post no 16
I feel that two of the women were mother and daughter,
Jenn
-
Good thinking, Jenn. I hadn't even noticed the Lynch surname which connects the three of them.
Electoral rolls show Eileen Margaret HALL at 317 Beaconsfield Pde in 1954 and 1949 also - can't see Harry there in 1949 but he is at 317 Beaconsfield Pde in 1943
Edit to add - a couple of long shots but worth a look in newspapers (not till next week for me though :( )
Eileen Margaret HALL at Springvale Botanical Cemetery, burial 30/11/1967
Location Details Joshua Jordan Lawn - Lawn Grave Row AW Grave 31
(I know the reg date jenn found is 1968 but perhaps................)
And this is almost certainly Marie
Cemetery Springvale Botanical Cemetery
Marie Therese MCCAHILL, buried 09/07/1976
Location Details Stewart Lawn - Lawn Grave Row O Grave 38
Can't see Myra Lynch at Springvale
Judith
-
We know he was in the AIF, and returned to Australia 1920(we assume) Melbourne, he was listed as sailing on the Kingoma, but on the ? list, where it has date of return, there is no date, so maybe he didn't sail after all at that time?
According to Harry's digitised WW1 record he sailed on the KIGOMA not KINGOMA He would be one of the unknown other ranks.
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23
Unknown 2 Nurses arrived Melbourne Jul 1920 KIGOMA P0rt B Fiche 935 Page 000
Unknown 2 Officers
Unknown 32 Children
Unknown 51 Women
Unknown 78 Other ranks
This request for information for Harry POWIS rings a bell...perhaps I contributed to a thread on another website.
Cheers
Cando
-
The old homes in Beaconsfield Parade, St Kilda West are quite substantial, well those that are left and I wonder if 317 was a boarding house.
Marriage
LYNCH Eileen Margaret
HALL Arthur Sinclair
1933 Reg#7441
As Eileen was born c1882 there would be no children from this marriage.
I cannot find this couple together on the electoral rolls. There is an Eileen Margaret LYNCH living at various addresses but no-one of the same surname at the same address. in 1949 there was an Eileen Margaret HALL living in Park Street, St Kilda West HD, no other HALL's at the address.
It would appear that Eileen possibly had two illegitimate children including Marie Therese
LYNCH Dorothy Kathleen
Father Unknown Mother Eileen LYNCH
At Carlton 1915 Reg#10290
LYNCH Marie Teresa
Father Unknown Mother Eileen LYNCH
At Carlton 1920 Reg#29088
Cando
-
How can i thank you folks enough for all this treasure trove of info?
I have a lot more to go on, if it weren't for the fact that Harry didn't return until 1920, I'd even be wondering if he was the Dad?
I'm guessing that neither of these women will still be alive now? Or if they are they are of a good age, but they might have families who have knowledge of their Mums and Grandmas past stories.
I had put a tentative reply to the Irwin post, and tried to contact them, but no reply so far, but am slightly worried about the part where Harry moves into where Isabelle lives, might be innocent, but don't know, and reluctant to push it in case it rattles some unwelcome skeletons.
I've written to the undertakers (couldn't find a web-site for them) hoping they might have more info.
Do you have access to wills in australia? Or because it's as late as 1950's does that exclude them from public viewing?
I've only ever looked for wills in the 1800's here in the UK, so don't know too much about them.
Will be trawling the electoral rolls now to trace these women if poss.
-
In 1943 Harry is living at 317 Beaconsfield Parade, along with Marie Theresa Lynch, who's listed as a guest house proprietress
-
Just a quick query, as i'm trying to track him, and finf any friends people around him, do the regions move?
in 1943 he's at no 317, which is in Melbourne Ports St Kilda West, but i can't find this district in 1942, St Kilda, but Beaconfields parade doesn't seem to exist, not that I can find anyway....
-
The death/funeral notice for Eileen Margaret Hall may very well confirm my thoughts that these three ladies were related.
Yes electoral divisions and boundaries are allways moving, as populations dictate the size of electorates.
Myra Lynch could be still alive... and of course she may be have married after Harry's death.
Jenn
-
Electoral roll listings are no guarantee that the person is living at the address at the date the election. People move, marry and died but their name is usually not removed from the roll until the fail to vote at an election however I am speaking of the years your are searching. These are the election rolls available online for the State of Victoria - online information is only available for the years with the* - 1920-22, 1924*, 1925-28, 1931*, 1932-35, 1936-37*, 1942-43*, 1949*, 1954* -
Your are searching by Division and sub division however the address on the image of the roll is the suburb. Beaconsfield Parade overlooks Port Philip Bay and extends from the suburb of Albert Park to St Kilda West. Enter the address and search here - the house is no longer there, replaced by a large block of flats/apartments. http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&tab=wl
Certificates would help you further you research if you are really keen to find out more about the LYNCH family.
Buried at the same location as Marie Therese McCAHILL
http://www.deceasedsearch.com/index.php
Springvale Botanical Cemetery
McCAHILL Michael
Religion - Roman Catholic
Funeral Director - Tobin Bros Frankston
Date of Service - 20 May 2003.
Date of Death 10 May 2003 Age 79 years Date of birth 13 Feb 1924
Burial - Stewart Lawn - Lawn Grave Row O Grave 38
I can find no ESTLER's on the Victorian indexes or on the National Archives website.
Wills in Victoria - you would need someone to search for a file number on the probate index, order it and then have someone view it for you.
Agents - http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide015/PROVguide015.jsp
http://www.access.prov.vic.gov.au/public/PROVguides/PROVguide068/PROVguide068.jsp
Cando
-
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/HeraldSun-AU/Obituaries.asp?Page=ArchiveSearch
The Herald Sun has a listing for Michael McCahill, you can order it online for about $5.00 or hope a fellow rcer can do a lookup
Jenn
-
These are Eileen Margaret LYNCH's brothers...same parents as noted on her death registration.
LYNCH Herbert John
Father Daniel Mother Margaret RYAN
At St Kilda 73 1961 Reg#20304
LYNCH Harold Joseph
Father Daniel Mother Margaret RYAN
At St Kilda 1971 Reg#6001
? The link with the LYNCH family? Did they meet in a boarding house?
I haven't found Harry again until 1935, where he's living now at 408 william street, and is there in 1936, haven't looked for Isabelle yet.
Australian Electoral Roll
1931
LYNCH Harold Joseph 408 William Street, Melbourne West, Labourer
LYNCH Margaret 408 William Street, Melbourne West HD
LYNCH Maria Murray 408 William Street, Melbourne West HD
[Maria Murray is a sister according to her death registration in 1968 aged66]
LYNCH Hebert John 213 Clarendon Street, South Melbourne Draper
LYNCH Elsie 213 Clarendon Street, South Melbourne HD
1936, 1937
LYNCH Herbert John 175 Lygon Street, Carlton Draper
LYNCH Elsie 175 Lygon Street, Carlton HD
1943
LYNCH Elsie 292 Victoria Street, North Melbourne HD
LYNCH Harold Joseph 294 Victoria Street, North Melbourne Florist
LYNCH Herbert John 292 Victoria Street, North Melbourne Draper
LYNCH Margaret 294 Victoria Street, North Melbourne Florist and HD
1954
LYNCH Elsie 286 Punt Road, South Yarra HD
LYNCH Herbert John 286 Punt Road, South Yarra No occupation
1949, 1954
LYNCH Harold Joseph 26 Edgevale Road, Kew Waterside worker
LYNCH Margarethe Margaret 26 Edgevale Road, Kew HD
Death certificates detail children of the marriage both living and deceased.
Cando
-
The LYNCH family are from NSW...
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/search.htm
Births to Daniel and Margaret at Gundagai. Eileen Margaret appears to be registered as Margaret E.
Herbert John LYNCH and Elsie married in NSW in 1913.
I am posting this information in the hope that you may find a descendant who may know the story of Harry POWIS.
My thoughts are that Harry and Harold Joseph met in a boarding house and the association with the family went from there.
Cheers
Cando
-
Couldn't resist going out on the hunt for these! Unfortunately it looks like no further useful information.
Melbourne Sun-Pictorial, 29 Nov, 1967
HALL- On Nov 28 at the Alfred Hospital, Eileen Margaret of 317 Beaconsfield Pde, St Kilda, mother of Marie (Mrs McCahill), nanna of Marie-Ann, sister of Harold Lynch
Funeral was a requiem mass at Sacred Heart church St Kilda, then to Springvale
Melbourne Sun-Pictorial, July 8 1976
MCCAHILL - Marie Therese, July 7, wife of Michael, mother of Marie-Anne, cousin of Mary Donaldson and family.
Herald-Sun, May 17, 1976
McCAHILL. - Michael, passed away peacefully May 10, 2003. He left his native Scotland so many years ago to make this country his home. Left to join his beloved Marie, loving father, grandfather, brother and brother-in-law - Marie-Anne, Allegra, Gabriella and Richard.
Funeral from Catholic church, Middle Park.
Eillen's brother Herbert is also at Springvale
Herbert John LYNCH buried 25/10/1961
Simmons Lawn - Lawn Grave Row CH Grave 53
AHA - Myra is also a sister!
Melbourne Sun-Pictorial, Oct 24, 1961
LYNCH - Oct 23 Herbert John of 317 Beaconsfield Pde St Kilda, husband of Else (sic), father of Don, brother of Minnie (Mrs Withers), Harold, Eileen (Mrs Hall) and Myra, uncle of Marie, Michael and Marie-Anne.
Funeral - Requiem Mass at Catholic Church St Kilda.
And Harold:
Harold Joseph LYNCH buried 16/03/1971
Simmons Lawn - Lawn Grave Row H Grave 23
I haven't looked for any more. My thoughts are that he boarded with them and thus became friends, agreeing with Cando
Judith
-
LYNCH - Oct 23 Herbert John of 317 Beaconsfield Pde St Kilda,
Judith
So he lived at the same address as well.
AHA - Myra is also a sister!
Judith
According to the NSW birth indexes I think this is
LYNCH Maria Murray 408 William Street, Melbourne West HD
[Maria Murray is a sister according to her death registration in 1968 aged 66]
Cando
1937 Harry's moved to 432 Lonsdale st
suehogben
You omitted his occupation - cook. Was this his occupation on his death certificate on the other linked thread :-\
I've found my Harry in 1925 at 16 Laburnham St Melbourne living with Arthur and Issabelle Irwin (Arthur was also born in Hackney, and joined about the same time as Harry, so presumably they knew each other?)
1926 Arthur and Harry are still at no 16, but no Isabbelle
1927 Arthur and Henry are still at no 16, but Isabelle is at no 27
1928 Arthur is at 16 still, Harry and Isabelle are at no 27?
1931 Arthur is at no 16, Harry and Isabelle no 27!
suehogben
...am slightly worried about the part where Harry moves into where Isabelle lives, might be innocent, but don't know, and reluctant to push it in case it rattles some unwelcome skeletons.
suehogben
I am unable to see the early electoral roll listing you have detailed on the thread. I understood that of the following Victorian electoral rolls available only the years marked with a* were online - 1924*, 1925-28, 1931* but you have recorded years 1925, 1926, 1928. I think the IRWIN's simply moved from 16 to 27 Laburnum Street, Brighton [not Laburnham Street, Melbourne] I would suggest that you are a bit more careful with names and addresses....I was searching for a Laburnham Street in the CBD of Melbourne.
Australian Electoral Rolls
1924
IRWIN Arthur Henry 52 Elgin Street, Hawthorn Clerk
IRWIN Izabelle 52 Elgin Street, Hawthorn HD
1931
IRWIN Arthur Henry 16 Laburnum Street, Brighton Clerk
IRWIN Izabelle 16 Laburnum Street, Brighton HD
1936, 1937
IRWIN Arthur Henry 27 Laburnum Street, Brighton Civil Servant
IRWIN Isabelle 27 Laburnum Street, Brighton HD
1942, 1949
IRWIN Arthur Henry 105 Robinson Road, Hawthorn Public Servant
IRWIN Izabelle 105 Robinson Road, Hawthorn HD
[Izabelle died in 1949]
1954
IRWIN Arthur Henry 105 Robinson Road, Hawthorn Public Servant
IRWIN Marie 105 Robinson Road, Hawthorn HD
I would suggest that Harry POWIS was simply a lodger.
Cando
-
Having read the thread properly this time I see Myra is at Springvale
Maria Murray LYNCH buried 03/09/1964 Joshua Jordan Lawn - Lawn Grave Row AW Grave 31
Will have a look for her death notice but won't be till next week.
I know some of this has been listed before but thought I'd put it all in.
Electoral rolls for Maria Murray LYNCH (all home duties):
1924 63 Sydney Rd South Brunswick
1931 408 William St Melbourne with a Margaret LYNCH and Harold Joseph LYNCH laborer
1936, 1937 at William St with Margaret -no Harold
1949, 1954 with Marie Therese (guest house proprieter, as has already been listed) at 317 Beaconsfield Pde
I think Cando is spot on with her proposition that he was a boarder. My great-uncle and aunt had a boarding house in High St Prahran and had some long-term boarders who were treated as family.
Judith
-
Hello Cando,
I did a search first using the asterixed dates, easier as I can search by name ,but then trawled through the unlisted ones, available on Ancestry, this was a case of searching each and every area! Took me days!!!.
From my search this is the info i have for the Irwins.
1925 Arthur & Isabell at 16 Laburnam St
1926 Arthur only at 16 Laburnam St (with Harry) not found Isabelle
1927 Arthur only at 16 Laburnam St (with Harry ) not found Isabelle
1928 Isabelle at no 27 Laburnam St with Harry (Arthur still at no 16)
1931 Isabelle at no 27 Laburnam St with Harry (Arthur still listed as at no 16)
The next I find them is at 1936 when Arthur and Isabelle are both at no 27 Laburnam St, again in 1937, by now Harry has moved to 408 William street.
Tying the link in further with the Lynch family, in 1935 and 1936 Harry Powis is living at 408 William Street,
not found where he is in 1937 yet, nor in the dates leading up to 1935, (1932-1934).
1938 ?
1939 ?
1940 ? There doesn't seem to be a searchable list (on Ancestry anyway)
Not found him yet in the 1942 roll, still trawling.....
1943 and he's now at 317 Beaconsfield Parade with Marie Theresa Lynch as guesthouse proprietress.
So a lot more trawling to do, but certainly looks like there might well be a friendship with those of the Lynch family, more avenues to explore
-
Just to pick your brains a bit more....
Harry supposedly returned to Australia in 1920, but the first I can find him is in 1924 when he's living at Whitehorse road Indi Ringwood, c/o Mr William Ward Draper. I'm in the process of trawling through the 1921/22 polls , but not found him yet, I'm assuming that he would be in the Melbourne or surrounding areas.
When soldiers returned from the war ,what normally happened to them? If they didn't have families to come home to how did they start to rebuild a life? Find somewhere to live, work etc? Were they just left to fend for themselves, or were there resettlemeny type packages for them?Work would be important to him i would have thought, because at this early stage he had a wife and 3 children to support back here in England, and according to my aunty (as told to her by her Grandma) he used to send money back for them.
This was until he was informed that his wife had had another child by a married man, the enraged wife wrote and told Harry about this, and apparently all contact was lost after this, and the children all grew up thinking he was dead.
I don't know if anyone wrote to tell him that his wife had died from TB not long after this, so he might well think that he was still married, or maybe he divorced her, or just chose to forget this part of his life.
-
I am not an expert but I do feel electoral rolls were mainted for election purpose and it was not compulsory to vote in the 1920's.
So you may not find him on every roll.
a few good article about Soldier settlement
http://www.jcu.edu.au/aff/history/articles/keneley2.htm
Jenn
-
Sue, the person he is with in 1924 is William Ward DAVIDSON whose occupation is 'draper'.
The suburb he is living in is Ringwood. The name "Indi" is the electoral division of that Ringwood is in.
It's confusing because Australian electoral rolls are for both Federal ( whole of Australia) and State parliamentary elections. The divisions have different names depending on whether it's a State or a Federal election and then they just seem to change for reasons of populations changes etc as well. The use of electoral rolls for both types of election is also the reason for the dates not being consistent - they are updated on a continuous basis but only published just before an election, so not published every year.
Hope that helps. Judith
-
Hello,
Continuing my search for Harry Powis, i now have his records from the care ? NAA, and it only muddies the water even more.
I wasn't sure whether to start a new thread, or carry on with this one, as all the plot and explanations are here already.
On one of the forms, well twice actually, it gives his actual (supposed) date of birth as 30/01/1888, as of yet, still haven't found a Powis who fits this, certainly not a Harry.
But the odd thing is, on one of the forms, it gives date of death as 8/10/1957, which is good, as that means that the Harry who's records that i have the burial for is the correct one.
However, one part says age 69, which would be correct if he was born in 1888, but someones crossed that out and put 75????? So does that mean that he owned up to his right age on his death bed? Also, if I remember correctly, on his death cert was the age 75? Would it be that he was too old to join the army in 1914, and knocked a few years off his life to make him elliglble?
Another page has a written piece on the bottom as follows (have put ? when unsure of word) The a/n was not in receipt of a war pension at time of death, no claim? , has get (?) been lodged ? ? acceptance N.F.A. ???.
Not sure what that all means.
Started a new search for birth around 1882, but so far, still no matches......so very frustrating.
There's also a form there re telephone message, from a Mr McKenzie of 199 clarendon St, South Melbourne, stating 'states x/m dies at ? hospital 8/10/57 and requests a form 20 to be sent to him at the above address. ? add P.S (?)
What was a form 20? I've notice that going back through the posts that McKenzie was the undertaker. I did write to them, but not heard anything, I couldn't find a website for them, or an e-mail address.
Reference to his work before he joined up lists clerk, commission agent, commission work, self-employed, London, and reason for leaving is '? to Australia (presumably emigrating) Last employed says 19th Jan, but doesn't name a year sadly.
What was a commission agent? And why would they be self-employed?
But, at least I do have his proper disembarkation date now, 20/05/1920 ,
from Tilbury, on the Kigoma. Why so late, when the war finished in 1918, were they allowed to stay a while? He was demobbed later in 1920.
He also worked for a Mr W Dickinson Beechleigh Andisons creek Rd Ringwood on his return, albeit for a short period I think, then he asks for subsistance when the work finished. He also worked for a Mr Stevens ,dry acetalyn welding, White Horse Rd, Ringwood as a clerk in 1920..
Rather poignantly, there's a letter there from Harry himself, dated 1920, apparently he was refused subsistance because he had failed to attend an interview, and he claims that the PO didn't deliver his letter until after the time stated, and that he went and asked the PO why they delivered his letter late. He also states that he's supporting his wife and 2 children back in England. Lovely legible writing though, at least i have something tangible of his now, albeit a copy.......
I keep reading these files, but because a lot of it is in code, I don't quite understand them all, and the writings not too brill on some of it.
Any advice now, or ideas gladly received, I had hoped that when I had this further info,(all 48 pages of it!) that it would clear things up, bad it only seems to muddy the waters even further......was he born 1888 or 1882? Was he Harry or someone else?
-
How lovely for you to have something tangible like a letter, very poignant
A lot of men in WW1 did put their ages down by around the 5 year mark ( I know my grandfather did)
The funeral director may have very well written to fill in the necessary document to get assistance to cover the cost of the funeral perhaps
As WW1 did not finish untill Nov 1918 a good deal of Aussies did not return untill 1919 as they had to wait for ships to send them home.
I have noted from helping others in their research that the blokes who married overseas did not return immediately as they had to make the arrangements for their wives and any children t come to Australia
Jenn
-
Hi there,
"Commission Agent" ... there's several ways to consider this occupation, and here's my explanation, as one of my Grandfathers was a Commission Agent in NSW in the 1920's.
My explanation is based on oral history, so it may well be only one example of a Commission Agent. My Grandfather was self-employed, he could read and write and had good numeracy skills too. Thus his income was based on the commissions he earned by going door to door selling products. Some products were insurance policies, while other products were practical things, eg domestic items - can openers, knitting needles, cutlery, teapots etc; Grandfather walked his own neighbourhood BUT on occasions, if he had a "brand new product" he would pack up these new wares and put them into teachests and board a train and "tour" the rural districts. The products were "on consignment" to him for upto six months. At the end of the six months he had to either return the un-sold ones or buy them outright. The sold ones he paid for. His "Commission" was thus the gross profit !
I also know that a "Commission Agent" collected Rents, ie went door to door to the tenants and collected their weekly rents and received a Commission (a percentage of the gross financial returns) from the rents.
Most likely there were many other examples of Agency type work for which a self employed person was able to earn a Commission. Door to Door Sales still exist, and I realise that there were/still are laws relating to "Hawkers" which may well have been "Commission Agents" of a sort. ;)
Cheers,
JM
-
Thank you both for your replies.
So it is possible then that he lied about his age to join up? I don't suppose the army were too bothered then. Was there an upper age , above which men weren't allowed to enlist? and if he had lied about the year, do you think it would be possible that his actual date of birth could be right, otherwise it's a lot of untruths to remember each time you had to fill in a form .
His grave is paid for in perpetuity, so not sure how that works, I'm assuming that it means that someone funded it for him.
Thanks for the info on commission agents JM, isn't it odd how you get an idea fixed in your head, I was picturing chaps like the ones who work on the stock market for some reason!!! Not sure why, I was wondering how they would do their wheeling and dealing in those days with mobile phones and computers.......I had tried a search on the net, but couldn't seem to get an answer , but what you said makes more sense, even if it does deflate the image slightly.........
What I would give to be able to talk to any of my Gparents (or parents now) I so wish I'd started this sooner, but they were both reluctant to talk about actual family background, and things that I'd unearthed with both sides, I suppose I can see why now, but these days , these days people wouldn't even blink an eye.......in fact, would probably be blurting it all out on Jeremy Kyle show :)
-
:D
Chalkies ! The Chaps who used to work on the blackboards, and write up the trades that the BOYS on the Floor of the Sydney Stock Exchange made ;D ... Those Boys and chalkies used to meet on Friday evenings at the Hotel Australia. But that was in the late 1960's, early 1970's.
Cheers, JM
-
Hi, Was just wondering what the name of your grandfather who lived at my grandmothers house in Beaconsfield parade in st Kilda?
Kind regards,
Marie-Anne
-
Hi Marie-Anne,
He was Harry Powis, originally born in England, but left for Australia just before WWI I think. Joined teh AIF, was injured and ended up here in Weymouth to recover, then after meeting and marrying my grandmother and fathering 2 children, he returned to Australia, which is where I managed to find his trail. I think your grandmothers family befriended him and looked after him until he died. He's buried in Melbourne and I'm trying to work out a way to get any more info about him, his life or photos of where he lived, who with and his burial place.
I would so love it if you had any info at all. He has been such a hidden character in my research that anything would be great.
Thanks for getting in touch.
Sue