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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Huntingdonshire => Topic started by: faraci on Tuesday 20 April 10 20:50 BST (UK)
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Hi
I am trying to find out info on my gg grandmother Harriet Florence Baxter born c 1838 - 1842 in St Neots. Her father was John Oliver Baxter - an engineer (as per her marriage certificate) ? who her mother was. She has some family connection with Ann Baxter/Walton but I am not sure if this was her mother.
Family 'story' is that Harriet's parents were wealthy and disowned her when she married James Cooke in 1860 at St Saviours Church, Chelsea. She apparently eloped. James was a soldier.
Harriet and James had 8 children Florence Sarah, Elizabeth, John James,Emma Harriet, Harry Herbert, Clara, Edith Mary and Alice Annie.
Harriet was educated as she taught my grandmother at home when my g.mother couldn't go to school.
Can anyone provide any info as I am completely stuck!!
Thank you
Suzanne
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Hello Suzanne, & welcome to RootsChat
The 1841 census has living in Huntingdon Street, St. Neots
Ann Baxter age 32 plus Benjamin 13, William 10, Mary 8, David 8 & Harriett age 6. All born in Hunts.
HO107/454 Folio 19 Page 30
On to 1851 & at Lamas Court, St James Clerkenwell is Ann Baxter widow age 39; Laundress & son William age 19 & daughter Harriett age 14, all born St Neots Hunts.
HO107/1517 Folio 404 Page 31
Is this your Harriett ?
Regards John
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Hi John
Thanks for your reply.
I have this information, but I am not sure it is my Harriet. The names of her siblings ie Benjamin, William, Mary and David do not feature in the names of Harriet's own children. From 1860 onwards (Harriet's marriage and the only definite piece of information I have on her) her name is always given as Harriet Florence in all the censuses, whereas before 1860 it does not feature at all.
The family 'story' of her parents being wealthy and my impression that Harriet had had some education has confused my search. Ann Baxter is described as a laundress in all the censuses. In 1881 Ann (Walton - did she marry again) is living with Harriet and James Cooke in Worcester as is described as Mother in Law - former laundress.
I cannot find any info at all on John Oliver Baxter - Harriet's father.
Where did the name Florence come from. Florence was mainly a male name in the early 1800's and became popular as a first name after Florence Nightingale. Was it a maiden /surname carried forward
It was important to Harriet as she named her first daughter Florence Sarah (Sarah after her husband's mother). The naming of her second daughter Elizabeth (my g.grandmother) is also a mystery - who was she named after?
Regards
Suzanne
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I have St Neots baptisms at home, and if and when I ever get back thanks to volcanic ash, I'll see what I can find. Managed to get a Eurostar to Paris tomorrow, so should be home on Friday morning
David
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Thanks David
Good luck getting home
Suzanne
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Interestingly I have two contacts on Genes Reunited who share a relation of mine, & I have access to their trees; which have the Ann Baxter & children (as per 1841 census). Unfortunately there is no information there regarding Harriett's father. Her brother Benjamin born 1828 St Neots, married & Mary in 1850 & their first son was John (after Benjamin's father ?). There is a marriage index in St Neots RD vol 14 page 307 in Sept 1850 that has Benjamin Baxter & either Mary Paine or Mary Sumers. On the 1851 census Benjamin's wife Mary was born 1829 Yelling, Cambs. If you get his marriage cerificate it will give his father's name & then confirm (or not) this is your Harriett's family.
Regards John
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Hi John
Good thinking!!
I have just ordered the marriage certificate for Benjamin & Mary.
Thanks for your advice. Didn't think of doing it.
Regards
Suzanne
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In 1827 John Baxter married Ann Richards at St Neots, which fits with the census family that John found. Baptisms at St Neots of children of John and Ann were:
Benjamin 13 Sept 1829
John 13 Sept 1829 (privately on 2 Sept 1829)
William 31 Jan 1831
John is described as a labourer each time
Harriett Florence Baxter was baptised on 6 April 1856 at St Pancras (born 28 Aug 1838) dau of John and Ann, clerk, of St Stephen's Terrace. She may have decided herself to add her middle name, Florence, as 1856 would have been at the height of Florence Nightingale's popular fame.
I wonder of Harriett exaggerated her father's status - she wouldn't have been the first to have done this. He seems to have had career changes though, labourer - clerk - engineer!
It will be interesting to see if on Benjamin's marriage cert his father is described as John Oliver, or just plain John. I can't see a marriage in Hunts between a Baxter and an Oliver, nor can I see a baptism of a John Oliver Baxter in St Neots
Have you found Ann in 1861 and 1871? What are the references as I'm struggling? Virtually no sleep last night on the train may be a factor!
But "former laundress" in 1881 ties in with "laundress" in 1851
John - have you got the NBI to see if there are any John Baxter burials 1837-41 in St Neots? I've sent mine off to get the upgrade to NBI3
David
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Hi David
Pleased you got back to UK alright.
Thank you so much for all that information.
I have got to go out in a minute but I'll have a look at the info I've got for 1871/1881 and get back to you.
Thanks again
Suzanne
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If you'd like a copy of the baptism entry could you send me a personal message with your email address and I'll attach it.
It was the opposite direction - I was stuck in Derby wanting to get home to the south of France! Should have stayed, it was warmer there than it is here!
I've found Ann in 1881 - it's 1861 and 1871 where I can't find her
David
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Hi David
Harriet married James Cooke in 1860 and had a son Alfred Thomas Cooke born 1861 in Ledbury (he went on to be a riding master in the 17th Hussars and eventually lived at Fenchurch Street,London).
1861 Harriet is in Northampton as a lodger. Status - soldiers wife, but no mention of a baby.
The family then start to move around. The next 2 children are born in Dublin in 1864/66, followed by another child born in Dundalk Ireland 1868. A girl is then born in Shorncliffe Kent 1870. A boy in Colchester Essex in 1872. Then 3 more children are born in Webheath Worcestershire in 1874/76/78.
In 1871 the family are living at Kensington Palace New Barracks including Alfred Thomas (the first born).
I don't know where Ann Baxter was for these 20 years but she reappears as Ann Walton in 1881 and is living with the family in Worcester. She must have married again I think.
On ancestry.com in 1881 Harriet Florence Cooke has an alternate name attached to her record as Harriet Florence Walton. I don't know where this has come from!!!
Suzanne
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I've just looked at Free BMD. Alfred Thomas Cook was born in December 1861 in Ledbury.
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John - have you got the NBI to see if there are any John Baxter burials 1837-41 in St Neots?
Hello David, nice to hear that you got back eventually - I wasn't aware that you'd been away
Anyway, No the NBI doesn't have the burial of John Baxter at St Neots in that time frame.
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On ancestry.com in 1881 Harriet Florence Cooke has an alternate name attached to her record as Harriet Florence Walton. I don't know where this has come from!!!
Because her mother is shown as Walton, Ancestry assumes, erroneously, that Harriet's maiden name was Walton.
Hello David, nice to hear that you got back eventually - I wasn't aware that you'd been away
Took a surprise trip to Derby the day before UK airspace was closed. Took me 24 hours door to door to get back. At least Eurostar didn't use "volcanic ash in the chunnel" as the excuse for the 75 min delay! Good thing I had the will indexes as reading matter. Found lots that I want, including a Bolnhurst Sabey which might provide the link we're all looking for.
And now I'm going to turn into a pumpkin
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See http://genforum.genealogy.com/englandcountry/messages/141794.html re the Summers from Yelling
David
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I think I have found Ann Baxter on 1861/71 censuses.
She has married a Samuel Welton (possible date for marriage December 1858 at Pancras, London 1b 80).
Her birthplace is given as Mendingshire St Mots - Huntingdonshire St Neots. Samuel is a labourer (born in Bow 1823) and they are living with Joseph & Elizabeth Summers from Yelling and their children William age 4 and Elizabeth age 6 months in Islington.
In 1771 Samuel's name is given as Wilton, living with Ann who is given as a year older than him whereas in 1861 she is 11 years older!
Samuel dies December 1878 age 54 in Islington (1b 185).
? Ann dies March 1895 age 85 also in Islington (1b 283).
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Hello……
I am sorry but I think you will have to have another look for a marriage for Ann….. :-\
The details you have given for the marriage that took place DecQ 1858 - Pancras 1b 80 isn’t the correct marriage - that Samuel Wilton married Emily Harris at St Pancras Church 13th November 1858
Kind regards
Sheila.
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Thanks Sheila for that information.
I was just guessing (which you shouldn't do, I know) as the date and place fitted!!
I'll carry on looking.
Regards
Suzanne
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I received the marriage certificate for Benjamin Baxter and Mary Sumers this morning.
Date of marriage 8 July 1850 in the Parish church in St Neots.
It doesn't really shed any light.
Benjamin's father is John Baxter-labourer. Mary's father is William -labourer.
Benjamin, Mary and William Day sign the register with an 'x' as their mark.
?Why does Mary have a different name from her father.
Any suggestions as to how I can progress?
Thank you
Suzanne
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Suzanne,
Well Benjamin's father is named John; OK it'd be nice if it said John Oliver - but that's not to say that it isn't Harriet's father. Look at it this way, if it wasn't John then I'd say there was an issue.
Where it tells you Mary's father's name does it just say William, or does it say William Sumers or William Day.
The Willliam Day you mention, was he a witness ie. ' in the presence of..' if so that does not necessarily mean it's her father - it could be Benjamin's best man; and what was the other witness's name please.
Regards John
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Hi John
In the Father's name and surname column it says William Day -labourer
The marriage is witnessed by William Day x his mark
and Louisa Garton
Regards
Suzanne
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Does anyone have access to the burial registers for Huntingdonshire?
As John Oliver Baxter does not feature on the 1841 census he may have died before this date. In 1851 Ann is described as a widow. There are 2 deaths for John Baxter on Free BMD March 1844 and March 1846 in Huntingdonshire. Perhaps his death record would verify his middle name.
Also the twins Mary & David born c1833 are not on the 1851 census. Have they also died?
Can anyone help?
Thank you
Suzanne
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John Baxter infant buried 26 Feb 1844 at Sawtry St Andrew
John Baxter age 56 buried 3 Mar 1846 at Alconbury Weston
No burials of a John Oliver Baxter anywhere on the NBI
No burials of a David* or Mary born c1833 before 1851 in Hunts
All negatives.. Sorry!
David
* In 1851 David Baxter 16 was living with his brother Benjamin 23 in St Neots. You added a correction to his birth year on Ancestry!
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?Why does Mary have a different name from her father.
The usual reason is that she was a widow. How was she described - widow or spinster?
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It looks as though Harriet added a middle name, Florence, when she was baptised/married, and may have aggrandised her father's occupation. I wonder if she might have invented a middle name Oliver for him too!
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Thinking a bit more about John Oliver Baxter, as one tends to do on a cold wet morning, middle names weren't common c1800, unless the individual was illegitimate when the putative father's surname was often added as a middle name as a none too subtle hint as to his identity. Which set me looking to see if there were any illegitimate John Baxters baptised in the right time frame in St Neots.
And sure enough the baptism transcript for St Neots has a John Baxter baptised on 15 Feb 1807 son of Mary Baxter with the annotation "B" (= bastard?). Proving that this is the John Baxter who married Ann Richards might be more difficult. But there are no burials of a John Baxter in St Neots 1807-27 which is a good start.
David
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Maybe!!
It's all a big mystery.
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Hi David
Thanks for that interesting information re: middle names and for finding John's date of birth.
I have found David (1833) on 1851 census. He is living with is brother Benjamin (his DOB is given as 1775 and age as 76 - whereas he is actually 16!). I cannot find him in 1861.
I have also found Mary in 1851. Her name is given as Mary Ann Bayts. She is living with the Todd family (butchers) in Holborn and is a servant. I am now trying to find out who she married.
Thanks for your help.
Kind regards
Suzanne
PS It's freezing here too. Hope it warms up soon!!
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Hi David
Re; David. I know! When I started looking for him I realised I had already found him. Have been a bit lax about keeping all my information together.
Re: Mary Summers. In 1841 she appears to be living with her brother Joseph age 10. She is 13. No parents mentioned. Her status is Spinster on her marriage certificate.
William Day appears on the same page.
You know the 'Summers family of Kent, Huntingdon and Islington' you emailed me. William Day is mentioned on that. He married Ann the widow of Thomas Summers in 1832. So perhaps he was a step uncle.
Also mentioned is that Joseph Summers age 61 married Marianne Hawkes in 1878 in Islington. On Harriet Florence's marriage certificate in 1860 there is a Mary Ann (looks like Fawkes) but it could be Hawkes who was a witness.
Regards
Suzanne
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Do you know what happened to girls/women who had illegitimate children at that time?
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I don't know where Ann Baxter was for these 20 years but she reappears as Ann Walton in 1881 and is living with the family in Worcester. She must have married again I think.
Yet your tree on Ancestry, which I've just found, shows her as living in Islington in 1861/71 with husband Samuel We/ilton. He appears to have died in 1878
In the same house in 1861 were a family of Summers from Yelling
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It's all a big mystery.
I don’t think that it’s a mystery! I think that one needs to look at the family very logically, without any preconceived thoughts.
1827 Marriage John Baxter and Ann Richards at St Neots
1829 St Neots John & Ann baptised Benjamin & John
1831 St Neots John & Ann baptised William
1838 Harriet Florence b 1838, baptised 1856 St Pancras, parents John & Ann
1841 St Neots Ann 32, Benjamin 13; William 10, Mary 8, David 8, Harriet 6
1850 St Neots Benjamin marries – father John Baxter (not stated to be deceased, which doesn’t mean that he wasn’t dead).
1851 Clerkenwell, London Ann 39, William 19, Harriet 14. All b St Neots
1851 St Neots Benjamin 23 & brother David 16. both b St Neots
1860 Harriet marries – father John Oliver Baxter engineer (not stated to be deceased)
1861 Ann is Ann Welton living in Islington with some of her/her son Benjamin’s Summers relatives from Yelling.
1881 Harriet Florence Cooke 43 b St Neots with mother Ann Welton 70 b St Neots
It’s clear that all the above are the same family – the key person is Benjamin whose baptism links him to John and Ann; who is in the same household as Ann, David and Harriet in 1841, whose 1850 marriage names his father as John, and who appears in 1851 with his brother David.
Notwithstanding the lack of a baptism in St Neots, Harriet’s 1856 baptism names her parents as John and Ann and gives her birth date. Clerkenwell, where she was living in 1851, and St Pancras where she was baptised, are adjoining, so I don’t doubt that it’s the same Harriet. The only record of her father being John Oliver Baxter is on her marriage certificate. I think this is another of Harriet’s flights of fancy.
What needs to be found are John Baxter’s death/burial, which I don’t think was necessarily pre 1851 (he may have done a runner); Ann’s remarriage to Samuel Welton some time between 1851 and 1861, which I can’t find; then confirmation or otherwise that John Baxter baptised 1807 at St Neots is the right one (in the absence of any other John Baxter baptisms in St Neots I think he's the only game in town, although he could conceivably have been a lot older than Ann.
An Ann Richards was baptised at St Neots on 27 Dec 1807, daughter of William and Mary, victualler
David
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I have also found Mary in 1851. Her name is given as Mary Ann Bayts. She is living with the Todd family (butchers) in Holborn and is a servant. I am now trying to find out who she married.
In 1861 there’s an Emma Carter granddaughter age 7 living with the Weltons. Samuel Welton was only 35 so unlikely to have been the grandfather of a 7 year old, so presumably she was Ann’s granddaughter. There’s a marriage on 5 Feb 1854* between William Carter, carman, of 1 Crown Court, and Mary Ann Baxter of full age spinster of 24 Arthur St, father John Baxter, mason; and a baptism of Emma Harriet Carter at St Thomas Charterhouse on 14 Apr 1854, parents William and Mary Ann, of 1 Crown Court, labourer.
This looks like Mary born c1833
David
Edit * at St Matthew, Bethnal Green. Mary Ann signed by making her mark (x) which makes me question your grandmother's belief that they were an educated family.
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Hi David
Thank you so much for this information and for making logical sense of all the previous information.
Do you think this suggests that John Baxter was still alive in 1854?
Thanks again
Suzanne
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Well that's three marriages where, as the father, he's not said to be deceased. Whilst it's often the case that the vicar didn't ask if the father was dead, so no-one volunteered the information, for it to happen three times is stretching it. So I wouldn't rule out that he may still have been alive after 1851
Which is perhaps why we can't find a marriage between Samuel Welton and Ann Baxter - because she knew he was alive and didn't want to be a bigamist
David
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Hi David
Does it give the name of witnesses to Mary's marriage to William?
Looking at Harriet's marriage certificate it appears that she signed it herself, as there is no 'x' to mark her signature.
Another thing that is puzzling me is that Benjamin, John and David were baptised fairly soon after their births but Harriet was in her late teens before she was baptised in London.
Regards
Suzanne
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The witnesses were William Parry and John Samuel Ames.
The first three children, Benjamin, John and William were baptised; the last three Mary, David and Harriet weren't (at least, not as infants).
David
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I think I have found Ann Welton in 1891.
Now Ann George age 81 living at Dame Alice Almshouses in Bedford assisted by the Harpur Charity.
She died aged 87 in Bedford June 1891.
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That's an enormous assumption without a marriage between Ann Welton and a Mr George!
Particularly as there's an Ann George 71 b St Neots in Bedford in 1881 and William and Ann George aged 78 and 61, she born St Neots, in Bedford in 1871.
No chance!
David