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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 20 April 10 10:54 BST (UK)
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Welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt and it's something you can really get your teeth into.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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I’m looking to locate Birth/Baptism, Marriage and Death/Burial information for the following gentleman: George Rice Price Parry. He is my 4xGreat Grandfather and the proverbial pain in the neck. I’ve been looking for him for over two years and I’m out of ideas so I’m hoping someone can find him and I can finally put him to rest.
This is what I know about him; He was born in the Isle of Man sometime between 1805 and 1816, according to the census entries.
I have previously asked for help on the boards in locating his birth on the Isle of Man but no evidence has been found; River had a look for me and could only find evidence of PERRY’s being on the island. I contacted someone via the Manx Genealogy web site and he could find no trace of a baptism in 1816 for him. I contacted the Guild of One Name Studies and Barbara, who is looking at the Parry’s has not come across him, except for in the census records. Discussions are here: http://bit.ly/bAYk8H and here: http://bit.ly/cNZMP2
He worked as a Tailor and was “admitted” twice to the workhouse in Holywell. Discussion about why only George was in the Workhouse in 1861 and I can’t find the rest of the family here: http://bit.ly/9yomPS
Information from the archivist at Flintshire Record Office:
“He first appears on Wednesday 7th March 1860. His full name is given as "George Rice Price Parry", classed as an "old and infirm man" for dietary purposes...The cause of seeking relief is "bad eyes" and the parish responsible for his relief is Denbigh. His first meal on admittance was supper. He discharges himself on 16th April 1860... He is re-admitted on 16th January 1861. The details are the same though he is now written as "George R P Parry" and the cause of relief is described as "blindness". He discharges himself again on 22nd April 1861. Then he is re-admitted again onSaturday October 26th 1861. Again the details are the same though the cause of relief is "Bad Sight" ... This time he is admitted by order of the Overseer of Denbigh. He again discharges himself, on 14th November 1861. There are no other family members mentioned in all of this.”
George and Ann have 5 sons;
Thomas Rice Price Parry (1837-?1874):
GRO Ref: Birth 1837 Q4 Holywell,27 177 - Birth certificate of Thomas Rice Price Parry (03 October 1837) father is shown to be George Rice Price Parry, Tailor abode: New Road, Holywell. Image: http://bit.ly/aQg5QK
GRO Ref: Marriage 1861 Q2 Holywell,11b 467 – Married Ellen Hayes at Mold Parish Church on 29 June 1861 (from PR) Father was listed as George Parry. However I cannot remember if it said he was deceased or not.
Owen Rice Price Parry (1840-1843):GRO Ref: Birth 1840 Q2 Holywell,27 224; GRO Ref: Death 1842 Q1 Holywell,27 189
George Rice Price Parry (1842-?):GRO Ref: Birth 1842 Q4 Holywell,27 229
John Rice Price Parry (1846-?):GRO Ref: Birth 1846 Q3 Holywell,27 223 (as John Rice Parry)
Evan Rice Price Parry (1850-?):GRO Ref Birth: 1850 Q4 Holywell,27 211
GRO Ref Marriage: 1879 Q3 Chester,8a 548 to Margaret Ann Jones Discussion about Evan and Margaret going to Chester to marry here: http://bit.ly/c6Hg0E
Family legend has it that he “Went off to London to buy some fabric and never came back. Years later one of his grandchildren was serving military time in South Africa, he was injured and whilst at a field hospital in South Africa the nurse looking after him asked his name. He said he was a Parry, from a place in North Wales called Holywell. This nurse surprised the wounded soldier by saying she knew a Parry from Holywell, & offered to arrange a meet. However when the soldier went to meet the gent, he’d run off. The soldier was convinced it was his Grand Father who’d run off all those years ago.”
Now I’m not sure how true this tale is, but I think it’s likely to contain a grain of truth. The generations may have been mixed up a bit and it could be his son Thomas, but I have tracked George from Holywell in 1841, 1851 and 1861 to Bradford, Yorkshire in 1871.
In 1871 he is in a boarding house and lists himself as a widow. Anne is still at home in Holywell with a couple of the children, also listed as a widow. I believe they had a “poor man’s divorce”. Discussion about the Lodgings here: http://bit.ly/bfFQHt
George Rice Price Parry Evidence
1841 Wales Census [Ref: HO107 Piece 1413 Book 7 ED 11 Folio 20 Page 32]
Image: http://bit.ly/bmTukg
1851 Wales Census [Ref: HO107 Piece 2500 Folio 350 Page 2]
Image: http://bit.ly/99QBV0
1861 Wales Census [Ref: RG6 Piece 4297 Folio 27 Page 3]
Image: http://bit.ly/9Op5Xd
George: 1871 England Census [Ref: RG10 Piece 4461 Folio 68 Page 18]
Image: http://bit.ly/9s3qGT
Anne & Sons: 1871 Wales Census [Ref: RG10 Piece 5640 Folio 74 Page 34]
Image: http://bit.ly/aOebYi
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when exactly does GRPP disappear
realistically we are looking for a death for him prior to 1916 :)
so GRPP married Ann who? what was her name on her son Thomas birth certificate?
could they have had children before Thomas?
what do you know about Ann? how old was she when she died, where did she die and when?
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The last trace I have of him in in 1871 on the census in Bradford.
Sorry, Ann's maiden name was OWENS. I haven't found any trace of children prior to Thomas.
I've not been able to find Ann past the 1871 census either, when she was a Domestic Servant, Widow, Living on Rose Hill, Bagilt in Flintshire.
So I also haven't been able to pin down her death but it is likley that she died in / around the Holywell area.
Sorry thats not much use I know :-\
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There is a Geo Isaac Pary chr. 13 May 1810 at St Mathews, Douglas, Isle of Man to John Pary and Margt Clarke. (IGI C038041)
Whilst this doesn't have the right middle names and is from IGI, it could be worth trying to follow up.
Another thought is that the Rice part of the name could be a corruption of Rhys.
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would ANn be Ann Rice Price Parry or Ann Parry ? :-\
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Owen Rice Price Parry (1840-1843):GRO Ref: Birth 1840 Q2 Holywell,27 224; GRO Ref: Death 1842 Q1 Holywell,27 189
Deaths Mar 1843
PARRY Owen Rice Price Holywell 27 189
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Toni - it would be Ann Parry. The "Rice Price" part definitely comes from George's side of things.
ammonite - this one has been found previously (http://bit.ly/cNZMP2) and discounted because " .... is Pavey not Pary - and also I think he is buried Braddan 18100928" Thanks for looking though.
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Deaths Mar 1843
PARRY Owen Rice Price Holywell 27 189
Argh, typo... sorry but thank you for correcting.
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to save going through everything how old was Ann in 1871 ?
did she have amiddle name?
i am hoping if we can find her death it may help locate George even if they were separated
another thought did George make a will or did he die intestate?
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Don't know if it's any use but there's a will for
"Edward PRYCE otherwise Price Parry" of Flintshire
Dated: 27 October 1821
Mentioned on this site:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08hw/
(Hope that link works??)
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In 1871 Ann was 58 and gave her birthpalce as Colywn, Denbighshire.
I've not been able to find any wills for George Rice Price Parry, George Rice Parry, George Price Parry...or any other variation I could think of. I also had a quick look for any Rhys Parry varients on the database of National Library Wales hoping to find a link that way further back but to no avail :(
Lady Di - thanks... going off to look now
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There are a couple of things perhaps to explore on the IGI:
Anne Elizabeth Parry, daughter of George and Ann, baptised at Holywell 14 Jun 1845 but died 4 Sep 1845 - although seemingly no other children to this couple recorded in that batch.
A marriage - George Price and Ann Owens, 21 Jan 1838, St Chad, Shrewsbury.
and a baptism:
George Rice Price Owen, baptised 11 Sep 1812, St Matthew, Douglas, Isle of Man, son of John & Ann.
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Thanks for those. If the baptism is correct i wonder where the Parry came from?
The will looks promising, from what little i can read... states Edward Pryce Parry from Tryddyn near Mold.... which is where my family are from and have strong links to.
Im at work at the mo and the web filter has kicked in, ill be able to get back on at 2.30. Until then access is over my phone so please bear with me!
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Richard those look promising
the marriage and George bp. were they submitted or extracted records
if they were submitted you woudl think the person who submitted them had checked the original document but it may best to double check ;)
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All extracted records except the Shrewsbury marriage, which doesn't specify.
The baptism on the Isle of Man could conceivably tie in with the marriage of John Owen and Ann Parry on 27 Jan 1815 at Penllech, Caernarfonshire (another extracted record) - maybe having been born before his parents' marriage he took his mother's maiden name as his surname? Admittedly there's a fair bit of travelling involved in this theory, although we do know already that he travelled from the Isle of Man to Wales.
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Richard
Thanks for those, I've had a look on the LDS London site and they have the microfilms on site so I should be able to get a look at them fairly easily.
Unfortuantely the marriage in Penllech is recorded in the Bishop's Transcripts but will be worth looking at none the less.
Does anyone have any idea's how or why someone would travel from the Isle of Man to North Wales?
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will for
"Edward PRYCE otherwise Price Parry" of Flintshire
Dated: 27 October 1821
Hi Lady Di
I've had more of a look through and it mentions Edward Pryce Parry having estates in Flintshire and Denbighshire, which he appears to be leaving to his brother Peter Parry. He also mentions a sister Elizabeth, who is married to a John Davis Esquire of Llys, Flintshire and his late father Edward Parry.
.... so it doesn't look like he's mine after all.
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Does anyone have any idea's how or why someone would travel from the Isle of Man to North Wales?
I have wondered if my great granddad travelled over to the IOM during his stay in Bangor. His son died in Bangor in 1883 and he turned up there in 1892 ish. Someone mentioned the link to me and it did look feasible that he could quite easily of travelled over to the IOM for a visit.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/tourism/advboard/adv98.htm
See 'Reaching the Isle of Man and 'Excursions by Sea'
Hope it helps.
Ewan
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There is a Private Tree on Ancestry that mentions George Rice Price Parry, born 1816 edit! born 1805, Isle of Mann.
Annie
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Annie,
Thats me. I have 1805-1816 on the tree but the search only shows the first date.
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Blow!
I was hoping it was a lead ;D
Annie
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A marriage - George Price and Ann Owens, 21 Jan 1838, St Chad, Shrewsbury.
and a baptism:
George Rice Price Owen, baptised 11 Sep 1812, St Matthew, Douglas, Isle of Man, son of John & Ann.
i think we need to follow these through :)
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This is why ive had such problems trying to trace this gent. He drives me nuts!
Ive put a request on a Manx board for more info around the baptism of George Rice Price Owen. Ive not had much luck there though yet.
Here's the link http://www.isle-of-man.com/cgi-bin/interests/genealogy/bulletin/index.pl?rev=538309#Responses in case anyone would like to look.
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A marriage - George Price and Ann Owens, 21 Jan 1838, St Chad, Shrewsbury.
and a baptism:
George Rice Price Owen, baptised 11 Sep 1812, St Matthew, Douglas, Isle of Man, son of John & Ann.
i think we need to follow these through :)
Right I went to the London Family History Centre after work to have a quick look and
Baptism
George Rice Price OWEN son of John Owen and Ann Owen baptised on 11 September 1812 at St Matthew's Church, Douglas, IOM.
I had a look through a couple of years either side but didn't find any more OWEN children.
Marriage
Parish Church of Penllech, Caernarvonshire from BTs
John OWEN of the parish of Llangoglan, Bachelor and Anne PARRY of the parish of Penllech were married in Church by Banns with consents of Parents the twenty seventh Day of January in the year of our lord eighteen hundren and fifteen.
Both bride and groom marked with an "x" Witnesses were William Griffith and Hugh Roberts.
I had a look at the baptisms prior to and after marriage and the only child of this marriage I could find was;
10 November 1816 Griffith OWEN son of John and Anne, abode: Rhodfa'r dwfn, Occupation: Mariner
Marriage
The marriage between George Price and Ann Owens in Shrewsbury is user submitted. The Elder at the LDS Centre told me that as it only had a batch number it was practically impossible to trace the submitter details and verify the information....
however there is a GRO reference for the marriage 1838 Q1 Shrewsbury,18 180 so I'm not sure if this would be them or not.
I think it is highly unlikely that there were two people named George Rice Price being born / baptised on the Isle of Man during the timeframe my Mr Parry said he was. If they are the same person I know I'm never likely to find out why he went from Owen to Parry...... but it got me thinking that maybe he (a) stole the identity or (b) could have reverted to his Owen surname after 1871...as i still can't find any trace....
What do people think?
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If George was born 1812 and his parents married 1815, then he would be able to use either name (of course anyone can use any name they like so long as it isn't for fraudulent purposes), or what I'm trying to say is that he probably used his mother's maiden name as well as his father's name - hence you have OWEN and PARRY (probably used interchangably or even together).
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Interesting that John Owen was a mariner - makes someone flitting across the sea and along the north Welsh coast more plausible.
Might it be possible to find Griffith Owen anywhere in the censuses? Might give clues as to where his parents went.
Although the Shrewsbury marriage is a submitted entry on the IGI, it does specify which church in Shrewsbury (St Chad) - and it looks like the London Family History Centre has the relevant register on microfilm (No. 0918796, marriages 1822-1858). If you're in London might be easier to check that than pay the new fees for a certificate from the GRO!
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I think it is highly unlikely that there were two people named George Rice Price being born / baptised on the Isle of Man during the timeframe my Mr Parry said he was. If they are the same person I know I'm never likely to find out why he went from Owen to Parry...... but it got me thinking that maybe he (a) stole the identity or (b) could have reverted to his Owen surname after 1871...as
He could quite possibly changed his name, that is the problem I have at the moment in identifying a person, when for some reason they have added a couple of middle names to what they were baptised with. ::)
Richard's suggestion does look good.
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If Ann & John were not married when George was bp. and the vicar / curate etc. wrote George Rice Price the son of John Owen and Ann it could be assumed that they are married and Ann was an Owen, I have no clues as to why they were not married maybe Ann wasn’t old enough and her parents refused consent maybe John was already married ? anyhow for some reason in 1815 they became free to marry and did so, and George Rice Price would technically be a Parry and not an Owen and thus used this name?
Does that make sense?
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That Shrewsbury marriage looks less likely - I've just found a George and Ann Price living in the parish of St Chad Shrewsbury in 1851, both from Shropshire. Ref HO107/1992/614/31
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Might it be possible to find Griffith Owen anywhere in the censuses? Might give clues as to where his parents went.
I'll start looking for a Griffith Owen, see what that brings up. I also can't believe I didn't think to look to see if they had St. Chad's on microfilm... guess I'll be back there after work again tonight!
He could quite possibly changed his name, that is the problem I have at the moment in identifying a person, when for some reason they have added a couple of middle names to what they were baptised with. ::)
I had one of those as well, another Parry, called himself David HAYES Parry but was baptised David Parry; HAYES was his mother's maiden name....solved that one a bit quicker than this though!
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Going back to the Penllech marriage - where is the parish of Llangoglan? Sounds like Llangollen, although unlikely that a mariner would live that far inland?
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It will have been written how the vicar/curate thought it sounded, so i do think its Llangollen. Many of my English friends pronounce it Langollen now!
A quick google as brought up "Llangoglan Eistedfodd" on another chat board...due to works webfilter i cant look.
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I've had a reply from the Manx Board about the baptism entry for George Rice Price Owen
"Posted By: davidr
Date: Thursday, 22 April 2010, at 2:56 p.m.
In Response To: Re: George Rice Price Owen (carole davies)
Baptism. From the Manx Museum microfilm no. (106) 718. At St. Matthew's Church in Douglas in the ecclesiastical parish of Braddan.
GEORGE RICE PRICE OWEN
Son of John OWEN and Ann OWEN
baptized 11th Sept. 1812.
That's all there is.... The women usually have Alias or Otherwise written after there married name detailing their maiden name, but not in this case.
I had a quick look at the card indexes to the newspapers of the time, there were only 2 Owen's mention between 1810 and 1830:
13 Dec 1821 Joseph Owen & Co., Corn Dealers, of Drinkwater's Warehouse, North Quay, Douglas.
and
28 Jan 1823 Richard Owen, Debtor. A prisoner in Castle Rushen (the Gaol) for debt 'has filed his petition'.
No sign of any marriage of any Owen's in any of the churches in Braddan (Braddan, St George's or St. Matthew's) between 1809 and 1812 either."
If the women normally have an alias after their name to indicate married name then this would suggest (to me at least) that George was born out of wedlock....or am I just hoping?
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A marriage - George Price and Ann Owens, 21 Jan 1838, St Chad, Shrewsbury.
I'm back at the Family History Centre and I've just checked out the marriage...the date is a bit off; its actually
08 February 1838
George PRICE, Full Age, Ba., Occupation: Wall (?) sinker, Abode: Castlefrigate, St. Margarets Parish, Father: William Price, Father's Occupation: Labourer
to
Ann OWENS, Full Age, Sp., Abode: High Street, Father: Owen Owens, Father's Occupation: Shoe Maker
Groom marked with an X and Bride signed.
Witness' were Richard Powell and James Webster
It looks like we're back to the drawing board with the marriage guys.
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Me again! Sorry ....
I've got a possible George Parry, Tailor lodging in a place called Volunteer Inn on London Road in Surrey in 1881.
Condtion is listed as Widow. Occupation as Tailor. Birthplace as being N.K but then this has been crossed out and N. Wales written.
The age is a bit difficult to make out, its been transcribed as 50, giving a date of birth around 1831 but looking at it I think it looks more like 60 - which would put date of birth back around 1821.... I know this is a long shot but could people take a look and see what you think.
The reference is RG11/783/99 Page 47
I'll post snapshots when I get home as I've not got there yet!
I'm also interested in finding out what this "Volunteer Inn" is all about.
Thanks
LazyLover
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the date of January fr the marriage could be when banns were read and then 3 successive sundays after enabling hte marriage to be on the feb 8th
now the 1881 census you foun dlooks promising especially if there are no other Georeg Parry's that macth in earlier census
the Volunteer Inn would presumably be an Inn where they offered lodgings
dont forget the census was 1 night in 10 years he may have just stopped for the night on his travels
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Shame about the marriage, although that was always a bit more of a long shot - worth eliminating though.
The 1881 census does look interesting - and is that birth place actually given as NK North Wales, Rhos? If that's Rhos on Sea (Llandrillo yn Rhos) in Denbighshire, it's pretty much the same place as Ann gave as her place of birth - indeed, Colwyn was once part of the parish of Rhos. Perhaps having been born on the Isle of Man he was brought up in Rhos? I also note from Genuki that there are no extracted entries on the IGI from this parish.
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Or, is it Rhes? Rhes-y-Cae, Flintshire is just south of Holywell and the 1851 census has a Peter Parry, Tailor aged 83 living there - HO107/2501/55/5.
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I also note from Genuki that there are no extracted entries on the IGI from this parish.
I'm going to have to get to Hawarden or Ruthin Record office if i want to look this up....or hope that someone on the other boards can look ;D
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The 1881 census does look interesting - and is that birth place actually given as NK North Wales, Rhos?
Here's the image of the 1881 census return from Surrey
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Here's this weeks Scavenger Hunt........... A very interesting one.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,452811.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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Paul kindly looked in the archieves back home for me with the hope of identifying Ann Owens;
the only one I could see around that time in Llandrillo yn Rhos.
March 16 1806 Anne Owen d/o Richard & Mary. Mynydd Mochdre.
Does anyone have any ideas how I would go about confirming if this was my Ann?
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You'll probably be hard pushed to confirm that one in the absence of her marriage certificate - and even if you do find that it'll probably be before civil registration and so won't actually confirm her father's name. The fact that none of the children we're aware of that Ann had with George Rice Price Parry were called either Richard or Mary doesn't look promising. You could try trawling through any Owen(s) wills from Llandrillo yn Rhos at the National Library of Wales website? On the slightly more favourable side, Mynydd Mochdre (which I assume is in the vicinity of Mynydd Lane running from Mochdre to Colwyn) appears to be fairly close to Colwyn, so is at least not out of the question.