RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: forthefamily on Sunday 18 April 10 01:28 BST (UK)
-
Hello,
I have tried looking for the Nocher family in the 1881 and 1891 Scotland census to no avail. They just don't want to be found.
Here are the details I have about them :
Hugh Nocher (age 23) and Helen McGee (age 22) were married on December 31, 1875 in Glasgow.
I have found the following children for them:
Edward - Nov. 2, 1876 Glasgow
Peter - Apr 2, 1878 Glasgow
Susan - Apr 12, 1879 Cambuslang
Mary Ann - Aug 24, 1880 Cambuslang
Bridget - Sep 20, 1883 Glasgow
Helen (Ellen) - Jul 14, 1886 Glasgow
Hugh Nocher died on January 11, 1887 in Glasgow at the age of 31.
The name Nocher has many and sundry variations - Knocher, Knocker, Nocker etc
I have found Helen calling herself Ellen and her children on Ancestry on the 1901 Scotland census living in Parkhead, Glasgow at 3 Ewing Place:
Ellen Nocker, head, widow, 47, born Ireland
Edward, son, single, 24, Gen’l Labourer (Steel Works), born Glasgow
Peter, son, single, 23, Gen’l Labourer (Tanyard), born Glasgow
Susan, daughter, single, 21, Coloured Weaver, born Cambuslang
Mary, daughter, single, 20, Silk Winder, born Cambuslang
Bridget, daughter, single, 17, Biscuit Factory Worker, born Glasgow
Ellen, daughter, single, 14, Coloured Weaver, born Glasgow
I cannot find the family in either 1881 or 1891 :'(
However, I did find the following family in 1881 that was eerily close in details and are in the right place at the right time. The details are so close I even looked at the original census on Scotlandspeople just to make sure it wasn’t a transcription error. But, sadly not.
1881 Scotland in Cambuslang living on Cullochburn Place:
Hugh Connor, head, married, 28, Gen’l Labourer, born Ireland
Helen Connor, wife, married, 28, born Ireland
Edward, son, 5, born Glasgow
Peter, son, 4, born Glasgow
Susan, daughter, 3, born Cambuslang
Marianne, daughter, 8 mths, born Cambuslang
I don't actually know where Hugh Nocher was born. I haven't found a birth for him in Scotland, England or Wales so perhaps he was Irish :-\
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
mab
-
hi mab :)
is there an address given on mary ann's birth cert.(1880) that might match
the address on the 1881 census entry ?
i can't see anything on the 1881 census disc that would match what you have
apart from that connor family
ev
-
hi ev
Mary Ann was born at Cullochburn Place in Cambuslang as was Susan :o .....So you see why I mentioned the Connors. It was such a bizarre find.
So, the question is who are the Connors ??? Are the Nochers under an assumed name ??? If so, what name did they use in 1891 ???...and I wonder why ???
I have seriously tried every trick I know to find them but no show :-X
mab
-
Could Nocher be the Irish gaelic for Connor? It happens to many names. I have Kerr ancestors who were Carr's in Ireland. In Scots gaelic McKendrick = Henderson and McEachern = McKechnie. It may be worth while contacting the Rootschat board for Ireland.
Good luck,
Lodger
-
It is too close a coincidence for it not to be them. What was Hugh's occupation on the birth certificates of the children? Did he register them with his mark or signature?
-
Mab :)
it's somtimes not a good idea in family research to assume things but in this
case i'm certain that you have found the family in 1881
as Sancti hints hugh might not have been able to read or write , and an Irish
accent may have led to the surname being recorded as Connor :-\
ev
-
It is too close a coincidence for it not to be them. What was Hugh's occupation on the birth certificates of the children? Did he register them with his mark or signature?
Hugh's occupation is either bricklayer labourer or steel work labourer and he could sign his name but Helen could not.
Just out of curiousity I looked on the 1911 Irish census for the name "Nocher" and there aren't a lot of them :-\
As you say Nocher may be an Anglicization of a Gaelic form of Connor. I'll have to look into that. My own surname Bonner is Ó Cnáimhsighe which is sometimes translated from the Gaelic as Kneafsey.
Thank you all for your ideas and input.
mab
-
My grandmother's mother was a "Nocker" but there was a period when they changed their name to Connor. She use to tell us it was due to the wars and not wanting to be thought of as German (Nocker and Knocker sound German perhaps?). They lived in northern Ireland though, part of the Scottish migration of 17th or 18th century.
-
I have since found another member of the family....Hugh's sister...... who also changed the name between Nocher and Connor in Glasgow. I believe they may have been hiding for some reason that we will never know about :)
Welcome to Rootschat REO.
mab
-
Hi mab,
I've been following this thread since you first posted it as the name Nocher was somehow familiar to me. I'm not related in any way, but I knew the name from somewhere and it's been driving me nuts trying to remember how I knew/recogised it.
Today I had a brainwave! I had been looking for some people I knew to be buried in Cadder Cemetery in Bishopbriggs a month or so ago and that's where I had seen the name. Why it stuck with me - I don't know, maybe because it's a very uncommon name?
Anyway, have a wee look here: http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/12.pdf
If you go to page 24, it looks as though there's a whole Nocher family listed. None of the first names match any you've listed, but they may be related in some way? There's dates of death and ages at death listed, so you'd be able to work out approximate dates of birth. In amongst them is Thomas Nocher killed in WW1 - I had a look at CWGC and the following are his details:
Name: NOCHER, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Able Seaman
Regiment/Service: Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve
Unit Text: Hood Bn. R.N. Div.
Age: 19
Date of Death: 05/09/1915
Service No: Clyde Z/2748
Additional information: Son of William and Agnes Drynan Nocher, of 22, Hillside Place, Springburn, Glasgow.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 10.
Memorial: PORTSMOUTH NAVAL MEMORIAL
I wish I had 'Eureka' moments more often!! ;D
Anne
-
Wow thanks Anne,
My second cousin who is a descendant of one of Hugh Nocher's daughters is very new to genealogical research so I'm helping her out. She's in Glasgow on a visit at the moment and hopes to do some research by interviewing some of the family to see what they know ;D ::) We really know nothing about this bit of the family so any information is helpful.
mab
-
Possible marriage records
1913 MOONEY BERNARD and NOCHER BRIDGET at CAMLACHIE GLASGOW/LANARK
1905 MCGUIRK BERNARD and NAGHOR MARY at ST ROLLOX GLASGOW/LANARK
1920 SHEVLIN JOHN JOSEPH and NOCHER HELEN at CAMLACHIE GLASGOW/LANARK
-
The fun on variants eh Sancti ;D
Anne, this looks to be the family of the entry you found on : http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/12.pdf on the 1891 census:
William Nocher 33 b. Ireland
Agnes Nocher 34 b. England
William Nocher 3
Sarah Nocher 9
Annie Nocher 7
Jane Nocher 5
Agnes Nocher 1
Address: 45 Hill St, Springburn
As for your Nochers, MAB, they've gone to ground for the 1891 census!
I did see this entry in 1891:
Edward Connor, 13, b. Glasgow at the Slatefield House Industrial School in Dennistoun, Glasgow Springburn....got me thinking!
If father Hugh died in 1887, I wonder if Ellen applied for Poor Relief and an application could be found. You have the family's address up to 1887 with Hugh death which would help with searches. Just thinking if your cousin is in Glasgow now, maybe something she could follow up. If there is something to be found there, poor relief applications can include a wealth of information not normally found elsewhere....
Monica
-
Thanks Sancti ;D
Monica...I saw that Edward Connor in 1891 and it seems to be a good match for him.
The Nocker family shows up again in 1901 in Parkhead.
mab
-
Hi Mab,
I am a descendant of Hugh Nocher's brother Patrick. Hugh, Patrick and another brother Daniel appeared to arrive in Glasgow in the 1870's from Ireland. The 1881 census records that Daniel came from a place called Derry Castle in Ireland. This could possibly be Derry Castle in Tippereray or it might be a reference to Derry in the North, as yet, I am not sure.
It is fascinating, what you have found regarding the possible name change in Cambuslang in 1881 but it seems a bit odd that they subsequently continue to register the children's names under Nocher.
You mention that you have also discovered a sister for Hugh. Could you possibly share this information with me as it might help me to find out where Hugh's parents Edward Nocher and Margaret Mc Williams ended up
Regards
Rob
-
Hello Rob
I'll gather that info for you and post it as soon as I can. I have had computer problems and as a result have lost my Bradley family tree that had the Nocher connection on it.
Regards
mab
-
That would be great Mab
Thanks
Rob
-
Ok here is what I found out......
I am not related to the Nocher/Connor family but my second cousin is and I have been helping her along with another second cousin in researching our Bradley family.
Hugh Nocher's daughter Susan (1879-1949) married Patrick Bradley (1871-1942) in Glasgow in 1906 (witnesses James Bradley and Mary Nocher)
Mary Nocher could be a sister of Hugh's but I haven't researched her as yet.
Susan Nocher and Patrick Bradley had a daughter Frances born 1907. Frances went to the USA May 5, 1930 aboard the Cameronia. She gave her contact in the US as Aunt Jane Currie, 3617 39th Avenue, L.I., N.Y.
I did some research on Jane Currie and found the following:
1) She and her husband Patrick Currie emigrated to the USA in 1926.
2) Patrick was her second husband. They were married in Glasgow
3) Her first husband was Henry Fullerty or Fullerton. They married in Ireland in 1884
4) She also interchanged the name Nocher and Connor. On the marriage certificate of her daughter Margaret Fullerton (Glasgow 1917 to William Quinn) Jane is described as Jane Fullerton now Currie M.S. Nocher.
5) On the birth certificate of her son Peter Currie she is down as Jane Connor.
I have other information but it's too much to put on Rootschat....and confusing. ::) :P
Here are links to other threads about this family.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457419.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,457324.msg3184347.html#msg3184347
If you post a couple more times I will be able to send you a P.M. and we can communicate by email.
mab
-
Thanks again Mab....
The Mary Nocher you refer to is possibly Susan's cousin Mary, daughter of Daniel Nocher and Mary Ann Kelly
Jane is a new name to me, I look forward to following this up in the morning
Regards
Rob
-
Hi,
I've just started researching my family history and apparently it lies within the Nocher's. There's an old story that when 'we' arrived in Glasgow from Ireland our name was Nocher, writing skills weren't found as often as they are nowadays and when someone else (i.e. the record keeper) asked the surname and was told it was 'Nocher' it was written down as 'Nocker'. I'm tracing mine back (having started my arduous journey this week only) but what I can tell you is as far back as my own memory goes, as follows:
There's myself, Kris Nocker, born **, father **, mother ** My father has 2 brothers and a sister and is the youngest of the bunch. His brother ** (lets call him **) is the oldest and now lives in Germany, ** (now Brown) who I know is ** (putting her birthdate circa **) and **. They were from the Camlachie district in Glasgow but moved to Ayrshire when my father was a very young boy.
My Grandfather was also Edward (Edward 2) and was born in 1911/1912. He was married to Agnes Vallery who was also form Glasgow.
I'm piecing this together slowly and the best thing for me to do would be write this stuff down the next time I speak to my Aunts and Uncles which, when finding out where I come from has been on a more conversational/informal way up till now.
As far as ** tells, her Grandfather was also called Edward (Edward 3) and she said that everyone (in they days) used to call their children after aunts/uncles which leads me to your interesting post. My Grandfather (Edward 2) had a sister who was Ellen (NB she never married) who I understand would have been born around 1906.
As I've been talking about this and some of my 'brief' findings I have been mentioning some of the names to my relatives and the likes of Peter's and Bridgit's. I have also mentioned the likes of Howitt and McGee and these seem to ring a bell with others as well as Flynn but I've not taken the time yet to piece these together. I have also been told that we are linked to 'Connor' before we came over from Ireland.
If any of this helps then I'd love to help you find out more about us and would love to hear if you know of any crossover and/or knowledge of further back in time, however I have heard that there are a few Nocker/Nocher's in Glasgow area.
** Moderator's Commnet: details of living people removed in accordance with Rootschat policy. Please see Posting Guidelines:
www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php
-
Hello Kris,
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I think you and I may be on the same track.
Hugh Nocher married to Ellen (or Helen) McGee
......had a son Edward born 1876 who married a Kate (Catherine) Howitt in 1904.
(Kate's parents were William Howitt and Margaret Calder).
......Edward and Kate had a daughter Ellen who was born in 1905. They may have had a son Edward but I haven't been able to determine that....on Scotland's people there is an Edward Nocher born 1911 (Camlachie) and an Edward Nocker born 1912 (Camlachie). As it's not my family I haven't sent away for the certs to find out.
mab
-
Hi,
By the looks of it you have been following this back quite far!
I just spoke to my Aunt Valerie tonight and she gave me this information about the Nocker's, bearing in mind this is all about Edward's brothers and sisters and Edward was born 11th December 1912. Edward had a big family and was the youngest of his brothers and sisters.
Edward is my direct grandfather and had four children, **
Edward's brothers are Peter, Thomas, William, Hugh and Alexander; his sisters are Ellen (born 14th February 1906) who we knew as Nena, Mary who was known as Meme, and Jeanie.
Mary had four children **. Interestingly I found out that ** is named after her Grandmother and her full name is **- I think we have your link! Ellen never married and had no children. Jeanie had two daughters **- not much more is known about her.
His brother Thomas went to California then came back and lived in Torquay before coming back to Glasgow. He married Abigail and they lived in Old Kilpatrick (out west of Glasgow). They had two children **, I actually remember going to young Abigail's house but I would have been very young at the time.
William also went to California and Torquay but he stayed in Torquay. He married Ellen and they had two children called **.
I am informed, sadly, that Peter died at a very young age.
Hugh got married to Annie McCulloch and they had two children called **. My Aunt thinks that they are still around in Glasgow but would be well in to their 70's now.
Finally, Alexander. Alexander went to South Africa never to return, not even for a visit! ** remembers him and thinks that she would have been 6 or 7 years old so this might put his departure at the early-mid 1950's. Alexander married Catherine and they had four daughters though we can only remember 2 of them, **.
My dad (**) also says that he remember's Ellen (b1906) having a nameplate on her door which read Noher or Nocher - I find it weird that somewhere along the line one of us changed it from Nocher to Nocker. ** said that we initially thought it was a 'apelling mistake' as I indicated on my first post and apparently my dad remembers his father mentioning the 'Connor' link but can't remember where or why.
I would love to hear if you have info on Edward/Hugh etc and further back or any other relatives they may have.
I would love to hear any 'tree' that you have which goes further back that Edward and Hugh.
Kris
** Moderator Comment: see next reply
-
Hi ...
Welcome to RootsChat :)
RootsChat is meant for finding ancestors, rather than living relatives.
Personal details of any people known or thought to be living will be removed, in accordance with RootsChat policy, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
It's lovely when relatives make contact here but you'll need to exchange information on living relatives, email addresses, etc. by PM (personal message) rather than on this thread.
Good luck, aghadowey (Moderator)
-
Kris
I have sent you a PM.
mab
-
Hi Kris,
If you are descended from Hugh Nocher and Helen McGee then we share some common ancestors.
Hugh's parents were Edward Nocher and Margaret Mcwilliams who were married in 1850 in Bellaghy Roman Catholic Church in Ballyscullion, County Londonderry.
Looking at some of the christian names mentioned in your previous post, particularly Thomas and William, I am wondering if you are not descended from another Nocher clan that were living in the Glasgow area at this time. The names Thomas and William were prominent in these families throughout the generations but to date I have been unable to make a link between that family and ours
Rob
-
My great grandmother was Esther Nocher born 1844 in Paisley,her father was John Nocher born abt 1809 in Ireland and mother Margaret Nocher born 1816 in Ireland and died 1884 in Abbey Poorhouse in Paisley.
Magarets father was William Nocher and mother Isabella Nocher nee Johnston no dates given.
-
Ive found a headstone with the following Nocher's at Cadder Cemetery, Bishopbriggs.
Two stones. The first
AGNES ORYNAN **/12/1906 30
WILLIAM NOCHER **/03/1945 87
THOMAS NOCHER **/09/1915 19
WILLIAM NOCHER 27/02/1981 78
MARGARET BROWN COLVILLE 23/12/1971 82
The second
WILLIAM ORYNAN NOCHER 05/04/1994 74
MARGARET HENDERSON DONNELLY 24/01/1985 63
If any are relatives, pm me and ill send you the headstone pics. Chris
-
Sorry Chris
I just noticed this post. I took a look and none of the names are my Nochers. Thank you anyway:)
-
Peter Nocher was my great-grandfather! I do not know why they disappeared during that period though, best of luck.
-
Hello LVEM
Wow that post was awhile ago. Welcome to Rootschat :)
In the end we all agreed that Nocher (various spellings) and Connor (various spellings) were all the same family and that those surnames were Anglicized versions of the Gaelic name "Conchobhar" So they didn't actually disappear but were there all the time.
I have other instances were names became interchangeable. One is McCallion and Campbell. It really does make research difficult.
mab