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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Lal on Saturday 17 April 10 23:56 BST (UK)
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My great-great grandfather married a Sherman and the name is so common I'm in a tangle (I had fought through some Hunters and Caunces to get to the correct ones, so maybe my luck is running low).
Here's the detail I have:
William Leatherbarrow married Ellen Sherman (daug. of Thomas, a labourer), who was born in Burscough and was aged 20 when they married in July 1866 (witnessed by a Martha Sherman, possibly a sister).
In the 1891 Census, Ellen is 42 (so born 1848/9), in the 1901 census, she is 54 (so born 1846/7).
I have found a baptism record for 10th Jan 1847, Ellen daughter of Thomas & Ellen, abode Burscough, father labourer, at St John's Lathom but in register of Ormskirk Church. I'm sure this is correct as it rings true.
I have also found in BMDs an Ellen Sherman born Sept 1845 in 'Wigan district' (not Ormskirk). But that's too early is it? There are no other nearby candidates.
I've got into a tangle now. Would someone be born right out of their district and then not baptised until almost 18 months old?
The possible sister, Martha, exists, born 1840 and registered in Aughton, sub-district of Preston (the mother notes as Rimmer, which I suspect is true for Ellen).
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This looks like your family.
Ellen 14 so born 1846/7 No reason for her to lie about her age at 14 years old!
1861 census RG9, Piece 2764, Folio 137, Page 23
Thomas Sherman 56 ag lab b Rufford? Lancs
Ellen 44 born Halsall
Martha 21 lab. dau b Aughton
Elizabeth 18 lab.dau Aughton
Ellen 14 b Burscough
Alice 10 b Burscough
Thomas 2 Burscough
Thomas Bradley son in law 26 born Burscough
Mary Bradley 26dau b Scarisbrook
Sarah Wright 2 visitor b Ormskirk
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Here she is, recorded as Helen so that is the name to use when ordering the cert.
Helen Sherman Reg District Ormskirk March 1/4 1847 vol 21 page 636
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Now that's great you think that because I had two pages of the census with the same family, but one of them does not have a number and I was very uncertain!
And an Ellen recorded as a Helen. Heh. I keep joking that there must be so many Ellens in Lancashire families because of our accents and dropped aitches...
Also, if I'm right about the names of the mother and father, then their family was even larger, going by the parish records, but so long as I find Ellen I am happy. ;D
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You are right about the names of the parents. The 1861 census above shows them with both Ellen and Martha in Burscough.
I thought I would go back to the 1851 census to see what other children were with them but am having trouble finding them on both ancestry and FindMyPast.
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Finally found them in 1851 HO107, Piece 2197, Folio 186, Page 19
Transcribed as Sherrow and it does look like that on the image.
Thomas 45 ag lab born Rafford/Rufford
Helen 40 born Halsall
William 20 ag lab b Scarisbrook
Mary 14 servant b Aughton
Elizabeth 7 house b Aughton
Helen 4 house b Burscough
Alice 10 months b Burscough
Both mother and daughter are Helen so your dropped haitch theory about us Lancashire folk could be right. :)
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1841
HO107, Piece 511, Book 2, Folio 45, Page 7. Aughton Lancashire
Thomas Sherman 30 Farmer
Ellen 30
William 10
Mary 4
Jane 2
Martha 1
Another daughter Jane who must die before 1851. Helen is Ellen this time.
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I can't believe you foudn them on the old census returns - I've been trying for days. Still not got the hang of the alternate names thing :(
This is the full family as I have them (from a variety of sources, incl parish records)
Thomas c1810
Ellen c1810
William 1831 - Sarah Wright is his daughter or adopted daughter, he married Elizabeth Wright, and they had some more children.
Margaret 1832
John 1834-5
Mary 1836 - married Thomas Bradley, not identified issue yet (tomorrow's job).
Jane 1836-44
Martha 1840
Elizabeth 1843 - mother of James 1862, possibly of Thomas 1859 (I'm still deciding on little Thomas)
Ellen 1847 - married James Leatherbarrow
Alice 1851
The 1851 census made me laugh as the person noting it down must have been posh to note the Ellens as Helens, and he has written down Rufford and Scarisbrick as posh people say them ;)
Old Thomas was obviously a labourer who travelled around a lot (unusual for Rufford folk ;)).
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I finally got them (using ancestry) in 1841 by widening Thomas' birth date to allow for the rounding down of birth dates to the nearest 5. eg Thomas in 1851 was 45 so should have been 35 in 1841 but allowing for a difference in the dates when the censuses were done he could have been 34 in 1841. So took his age back to 30 + or - 2.
Not all enumerators rounded down the ages but some did it as they were supposed to.
As for the 1851 and the name Sherrow (FindMyPast didn't give it as an alternative) I left the surname out of the search boxes altogether and used the maiden name of a child only, with Thomas as father. I left Ellen out of it because she may have been recorded as Ellen or Helen.
I used Sher* in the surname box but nothing showed and this can happen because sometimes the sites have a hissy fit and just decide they aren't going to show what you are looking for.
Thomas and Ellen didn't go that far in their travels. Aughton is 2.45 miles SW of Ormskirk and Burscough is 3.4 miles NE. Scarisbrook is 4.3 miles NW.
Rufford and Halsall very close to Ormskirk also.
It makes things a lot easier when searching that they didn't move around a lot and were precise as to where their children were born.
Margaret born 1832 doesn't appear on any census with the family and no death for her on FreeBMD. Did she die before 1837 and therefore no registration of death for her?
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I finally got them (using ancestry) in 1841 by widening Thomas' birth date to allow for the rounding down of birth dates to the nearest 5. eg Thomas in 1851 was 45 so should have been 35 in 1841 but allowing for a difference in the dates when the censuses were done he could have been 34 in 1841. So took his age back to 30 + or - 2.
Not all enumerators rounded down the ages but some did it as they were supposed to.
As for the 1851 and the name Sherrow (FindMyPast didn't give it as an alternative) I left the surname out of the search boxes altogether and used the maiden name of a child only, with Thomas as father. I left Ellen out of it because she may have been recorded as Ellen or Helen.
I used Sher* in the surname box but nothing showed and this can happen because sometimes the sites have a hissy fit and just decide they aren't going to show what you are looking for.
Thomas and Ellen didn't go that far in their travels. Aughton is 2.45 miles SW of Ormskirk and Burscough is 3.4 miles NE. Scarisbrook is 4.3 miles NW.
Rufford and Halsall very close to Ormskirk also.
It makes things a lot easier when searching that they didn't move around a lot and were precise as to where their children were born.
Margaret born 1832 doesn't appear on any census with the family and no death for her on FreeBMD. Did she die before 1837 and therefore no registration of death for her?
Yes, I'm thinking Margaret maybe did die, I need to scour parish records again for her. It makes me wonder what sort of house they lived in at Snape (now Snape Green, and where I spent the first 8 years of my life!) if so many little ones died while living there.
I know these villages aren't very far apart, but compared to the rest of my family, they were well travelled! I'm hoping I can get a bit further into whether Thomas had any brothers as I've found a lot of Shermans on the parish records and my father is friends with one.
I've been using Genes Reunited as I have some credits I need to use up on there before I commit to joining a site with a full membership - and there isn't much chance to try different naming options on their search :(
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Marriage 22 Nov 1830 St Thomas, Melling, Lancashire, England
Thomas Shearman - (X), of this Parish
Ellen Rimmer - (X), of this Parish
Witness: Charles Sherman; Thomas Bolton
Married by Banns by: Jeremiah Barnes Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 63, Entry 187
Source: LDS Film 1849660
If this is your Thomas Sherman marrying Ellen Rimmer then the witness Charles Sherman could be his brother.
Melling is in the right area.
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Yes, I'm pretty sure this is the couple! I found this one on lan-opc.org (fabulous resource).
If they were born in Rufford and Halsall respectively, then I'd imagine they had both moved to work in Melling and moved back to live in Scarisbrick quite quickly after marriage. The marriage was in November 1830 and the baptism of William in January 1831. I wouldn't think it was a 'marriage under licence' outside their own parishes as it says they were married by banns? Would that be correct?
I've also found extensive records for a Charles Sherman and his own family.
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To be absolutely sure that you are following the correct line you really do need to buy a birth certificate for one of Thomas and Ellen/Helen's children born after 1837.
I am not well up on marriage by licence or banns so won't put in my tuppence worth. You could read the history of banns and marriages here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_licence
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To be absolutely sure that you are following the correct line you really do need to buy a birth certificate for one of Thomas and Ellen/Helen's children born after 1837.
I am not well up on marriage by licence or banns so won't put in my tuppence worth. You could read the history of banns and marriages here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_licence
My mother thinks she has one of these, luckily, so I'll be asking her for a look at that. We also know that Ellen Sherman/Shearman (the names are often transcribed differently), daughter of Thomas, was the wife of William Leatherbarrow, and mother of James, Robert, Jane, Thomas and William. I've taken care with the Leatherbarrows as I know there are a few 'lines', but this one, even though it came to live in Scarisbrick, was strongly associated with St Cuthberts in Halsall as it was closer than St Marks. Shermans are another line to be careful with, as there are a few, and we know the two families have crossed genes a few times!
I hope that talk of parishes means something! Are you or any of yours from the area if that's not too many questions?
I have now invested in a site membership so I can use the census records more widely too :)
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Hi Lal
I'm a Bolton lass but left in 1961 for NZ but have been in OZ since 1963.
I get just as bewildered as the next person by the parishes and movements of county boundary lines.
Now you have a site sub your family will know where to find you day and night! ;D
Good luck with it.
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I take it you have the parish information for your Sherman/Rimmer, you see them at
http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/indexp.html
Example.....
Marriage: 22 Nov 1830 St Thomas, Melling, Lancashire, England
Thomas Shearman - (X), of this Parish
Ellen Rimmer - (X), of this Parish
Witness: Charles Sherman; Thomas Bolton
Married by Banns by: Jeremiah Barnes Curate
Register: Marriages 1813 - 1837, Page 63, Entry 187
Source: LDS Film 1849660
Threcent electoral rolls show no Sherman in the Carnforth area but there
are 3 Rimmer [family/individual].....PM me for details if required.
Mike.
Mike.
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Hi
I am researching SHERMAN for my friend (PYE) and have found them recorded as SHERMAN / SHARMAN / SHERMON / SHORMAN / SHORMON!
His connection is via John BENSON who married Alice SHERMAN at St Mark's, Scarisbrick in 1871.
Her father appears to be Charles SHERMAN but from census details he doesn't appear to know where he was born:
(in brief)
1881 - Southport Road, Scarisbrick
as SHERMAN
Charles aged 80 born Bosworth, Lancs
Margaret wf aged 75 b. North Meols
1871 - 13 Southport Road, Scarisbrick
as SHORMON
Charles aged 73 born Leicestershire, not known
Margaret aged 64 b. Croston
1861 - Ormskirk Road, Scarisbrick
as SHERMAN
Charles aged 65 b. Leicestershire
Margaret aged 54 b. North Meols
Alice as Ellen aged 19 b. Scarisbrick
1851 - ? Scarisbrick
as SHERMAN
Charles aged 50 b. Cheshire
Margaret aged 44 b. ? Lancashire
Alice aged 8 b. Scarisbrick
1841 - Southport Road, Scarisbrick
as SHORMAN
Charles aged 35 b. Lancashire - yes
Margaret aged 35 b. Lancashire - yes
found a marriage of Charles SHERMAN to Margaret CROPPER in 1828 at St Peter & St Paul, Ormskirk both of Ormskirk Parish.
other off-spring of Charles appear to be:
Mary b. c1829, m. c1848 to James CAVE (found as CARR / CARL / CARE / CAVEY) (later DARWEN / DARWIN)
Henry b. c1834, m. c1879 to Mary COOPER
(so far only found a child, Charles SHERMAN b. c 1880, Scarisbrick)
Elizabeth b. c1849, m. 1871 to Thomas ABRAM
best wishes,
Ian.
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Thanks for posting that - I'll be pursuing some more on my Shermans next week and I'm sure this Charles is in some way related to the Shermans in my tree owing to that parish record which has Charles as a witness at the wedding of Thomas Sherman.
I've some more possible links to/descendants of Charles on my notes which I'll post up as soon as I can!
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many thanks - would be nice if there is a link between the two!
best wishes,
Ian.
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It looks to me like the Shermans, both Thomas and Charles, were associated with St Cuthberts in Halsall, as most (but not all) the Parish records seem to turn up there. There is also a William and a Henry Sherman who had growing families at the same time, and an Elizabeth who was a single woman who had babies baptised at St Cuthberts.
I'd traced the following who may have been their children:
Mary bapt. 1829
Henry bapt. 1833
William bapt.1837
Elizabeth bapt.1846
Elizabeth bapt.1848
William bapt. 1850
Alice bapt. 1841
Thomas in my family tree seems to have lived in various villages in the area - Melling, Snape Green in Scarisbrick, Aughton and finally, Burscough.
A single woman named Alice Sherman had the following children baptised at St Cuthberts:
James - 1869
Mary 1873
Margaret 1876
Martha 1881
In 1881, Alice is living at Morris Lane with two of these children and her mother, Ellen - it seems this is the Alice Sherman who was Thomas Sherman's daughter, however.
And I have the following burials, which might be Charles and Margaret:
Burial: 20 Aug 1881 St Mark, Scarisbrick, Lancashire, England
Margaret Sherman -
Age: 74 years
Abode: Scarisbrick
Burial: 10 Dec 1881 St Mark, Scarisbrick, Lancashire, England
Charles Sherman -
Age: 82 years
Abode: Scarisbrick
A good rummage in www.lan-opc.org.uk should turn up a lot of Shermans who appear to be related to one another - there still are and always have been a lot of them around that area. I've still not managed to distinguish them all from one another but it should be possible! My feeling is that if Thomas and Charles were brothers, then their parents moved at some point from Rufford to Scarisbrick/Halsall.
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my only concern is why did the Charles I'm looking at, not seem to be sure where he was born in census entries - maybe he is an "outsider" - surely he would have some idea if his "brothers" had some knowledge of the area they were born in!?!
could he even be a cousin? ???
don't want to connect them by jumping the gun - it's got me in hot water before now :o
best wishes,
Ian.
:-\
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PS
interesting that a BERRY is with your 1881 household of SHERMAN...
John & Alice BENSON (nee SHERMAN) had a daughter Margaret who married Thomas PYE.
Thomas PYE had a sister Margaret who married a John Berry SMITH but they used the surname BERRY in the census / records there after!
small world lol
;)
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Hi, did you fing any Sherman ancestor living in Liverpool 1860s onwards or an Irish/Isle of Man connection? Thanks
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shermanf - I've not found any of my branch of the Shermans living in Ireland/isle of Man. Some may have ended up in Liverpool as they all lived in West Lancs and folk from round there often did drift towards the city, though I've not found any yet.
It's a very common name though, also look up Sharman and Shearman as with people who could not read and write, their names are often spelled incorrectly!
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Hello lal, reading a few of your Sherman posts I realise we must have a fairly close family link. Your Alice Sherman(Sharman) b.1851 is my g.g. grandmother. I have an old tapestry which I believe was worked by her in1864 when she was 13. It reads "Death has been here and borne away A sister from our side Just in the morning As young as we she died Not long ago she did fill her placeAnd stood with us to learn But she has run her mortal race And never can return". Unfortunately the tapestry is in very poor condtion though the text is not something I would want to display, but its lovely to have as a link to the past. I havn't figured out which of her sisters it refers to - any idea? It was found in an attic at Cut Lane,Aughton.
I also think that her daughters Mary and Martha are the 2 "old sisters" whom my dad remembers as having a shop which he used to walk to for ice cream.
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Thanks lal, James Sherman(Shirman) born 1859/60 has a birthplace somtimes stated as Liverpool, sometimes Ireland. He marries a Mary McaLister in Liverpool in 1880 and has four known children. John Edward, James. Mary, Elizabeth. His father on the marriage cert is named as John Sherman mariner deceased. And there it seems to stop. There is at least one other family of Shermans in Liverpool at that time but no link is apparent. It was just a long shot as to a link with your side. How far back in Lancashire can you trace your side - does it go backtothe Cornish or Essex Sherman families.
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Thanks lal, James Sherman(Shirman) born 1859/60 has a birthplace somtimes stated as Liverpool, sometimes Ireland. He marries a Mary McaLister in Liverpool in 1880 and has four known children. John Edward, James. Mary, Elizabeth. His father on the marriage cert is named as John Sherman mariner deceased. And there it seems to stop. There is at least one other family of Shermans in Liverpool at that time but no link is apparent. It was just a long shot as to a link with your side. How far back in Lancashire can you trace your side - does it go backtothe Cornish or Essex Sherman families.
I can't get back any further than Thomas Sherman born approx 1801 in Rufford, though it's likely he had siblings/cousins ('Charles' mentioned in this thread is one likely candidate). It's possible that someone who had a mariner for a father may have been born in Ireland and moved to Liverpool (and very likely with the famine, too) - and like I say, Sherman seems to be a very common name and they aren't necessarily all related, probably because it must mean "someone who shears sheep" which was a common job. I would check on the mis-spellings because you might locate his father John. Also, you might find John Sherman's death (being a mariner, was he lost at sea?) because there could be more on the death cert.
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Hello lal, reading a few of your Sherman posts I realise we must have a fairly close family link. Your Alice Sherman(Sharman) b.1851 is my g.g. grandmother. I have an old tapestry which I believe was worked by her in1864 when she was 13. It reads "Death has been here and borne away A sister from our side Just in the morning As young as we she died Not long ago she did fill her placeAnd stood with us to learn But she has run her mortal race And never can return". Unfortunately the tapestry is in very poor condtion though the text is not something I would want to display, but its lovely to have as a link to the past. I havn't figured out which of her sisters it refers to - any idea? It was found in an attic at Cut Lane,Aughton.
I also think that her daughters Mary and Martha are the 2 "old sisters" whom my dad remembers as having a shop which he used to walk to for ice cream.
I'd love to see that! Have you any photos of it you would be willing to share? Yes, Alice Sherman was my g.g.grandmother's (Ellen Sherman, later Leatherbarrow) sister, and the families must have remained close as I've got memorial cards for both the funerals of Alice and her husband William Taylor. I wouldn't be surprised if they were close though as the families link up twice!
Alice's son James (born 1869) married Ann Mawdsley (born 1872) in 1893, and Ellen's daughter Jane Leatherbarrow (born 1870) married Thomas Mawdsley (born 1868) in 1908. Both families lived in Cut Lane which is literally just in Aughton, across a field from Primrose Hill. In 1911 Alice Sherman and the rest of her family lived on Small Lane South so her tapestry must have been passed on to son James?
I'm not sure which sister it would have been in honour of but my suspect is Elizabeth. I've done quite a lot of work on the Shermans now and she's the one who still foxes me. There's:
William (1831-? but lived to an old age).
Margaret - 1832-3
John 1834-5
Mary 1836-? but lived towards old age).
Jane 1838-44
Martha 1848-1911.
Elizabeth 1843 - ? Had two children, was unmarried as far as I know, children were Thomas (1859) and James (1862).
Ellen (my g.g. grandmother) 1847-1924.
Alice 1851-1918.
If the tapestry was made in 1864 and was in honour of Elizabeth, then perhaps she died after having her second son? Which would make her about 19-21 years of age. There's an 8 year age gap. I'm going to look into this one some more...!
I'm not sure about the ice cream shop, I'm sure my mother said there was one in Halsall...I think a Sherman had the post office too....I'll go and look in a book I've got about Halsall....
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I'll try and get a photo done for you tomorrow.
I havn't done much on my family tree for a while, but can add some more Mawdsleys now - thanks!