RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: Muggins on Saturday 17 April 10 21:01 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone!
I'm relatively new to RootsChat, and, among a couple of other names, I'm looking for the maiden name of Louisa "Lishmund" b. 1854 in Devonport. She was married to a Charles Lishmund, a house carpenter. I found them in the 1881 census, living at 25A James St., Stoke Damerel, Plymouth with their two children - Lilly and Jessie, (later that year my great-great grandmother Mabel Lishmund was born into their family). I think they may have had one or two more children after that as well.
Thanks!
Muggins
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May have married a bit later than you may think ...
1885 Stoke Damerel
Charles Lishmund
Louisa Rowe 5b page 602.
Tazzie
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The best place to find the mothers maiden name is from Mabel birth cert which looks like it was registered in the September quarter 1882 at Stoke Dameral. From the Free BMD site 5b 317 are the numbers you need to send for a copy from the General Register Office
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Researchingfamilyhistory/index.htm
Charles might have been widowed and remarried before Mabel's birth and you might end up looking for a completely different family. In my own research I had an ancestor remarry between census and it was years later before I discovered the second marriage because he married 2 Harriets.
Although this is an unusual name there looks like more than one family of this name in Plymouth at this time which needs to be careful about.
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you need to be very careful as Wred says...there is a Charles H Lishmund born 1880 aged 7 mnths in
14 James Street in the 1881 census....I at first thought it was another child you had missed....
his father John Lishmund and Charles Lishmund are both carpenters ..and born 2 years apart...so probably brothers.....allan :)
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Thanks Tazzie, Wred and....Garstonite(?)
I know there was quite a little pocket of Lishmunds in Devonport at the time - possibly at least three brothers (carpenters and such) and perhaps their father (John, b. 1808). Was it common for a couple to marry after having several children? I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure I have the right family of Lishmunds, because I have Mabel's marriage certificate (she married John George Buckney Horne), in which is listed her birthdate and the names of her parents - Charles and Louisa. Also, her sister Jessie Lishmund is listed as one of the witnesses.
Thanks Wred - I will take your advice and send for the certificate.
Muggins
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Hiya Muggins.........up until the 1970`s you could not even APPLY for a divorce until you had been married for 3 years....once you applied it could take a couple of years to go to court.........so maybe Charles or Louisa had been married before.....and also there was a stigma attatched to "divorce" in those days..it was frowned upon, so they have said they were married for the census returns because it was classed as " living in sin "............allan :)
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Thanks Allan/Garstonite -
I will keep digging.... I was just doing a google search on "Lishmund" when I came across a young man (born 1890) who enlistd in the Australian Commonwealth Military Force in 1916, at age 26 and was stationed in Adelaide, South Australia (regimental # 2635), and on his enlistment form he lists his mother as "Louisa Lishmund, 51 Tracey Street, Plymouth, England".
It seems possible this could be the same Louisa and that Clifford was a later child, though it seems odd to me that her son would end up in Australia! However, given that Plymouth is/was such a major port, I suppose there were many comings and goings of all kinds.
BTW I'm thrilled to find this site and so many interested, helpful people!
Muggins
(don't know yet how to add the little tag line everyone seems to have, but I'm researching 4 names in Plymouth - Lishmund, Lutley, Horne and Buckney! :)
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Another google lists him as Frederick Clifford Lishmund and buried in West Terrace AIF in Adelaide. Frederick is with them in 1891 b @1890.
Did you know Charles & Louisa travelled to America?
Tazzie
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Hi tazzie -
Why, thanks!
Do you mean Frederick Clifford is listed as one of Louisa's children in the 1891 census?
Could you please tell me how to access these censuses? Being somewhat of a newbie, I've so far only used the Familysearch site, which only seems to have the British 1881 census. These other censuses are so useful and obviously can help confirm what was previously just a 'hunch'!
Muggins
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tazzie -
I forgot to ask - do you mean the Lishmunds moved to America, or just visited?
Muggins
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Hi ....
The census can be found on pay for view sites like Ancestry or Find My Past
www.freecen.org.uk
also has Devon 1891 100% transcribed and is free.
Charles Lishmund hd m m 38 carpenter Devonport
Louisa wi m f 37 tailoress Plymouth
Lily dau u f 12 Scholar Devonport
Jessie dau u f 10 " "
Mabel dau u f 8 " "
Maud dau u f 6 " "
Charles E son u m 4 Devonport
Frederick son u m 1 "
RG12/1741 F 32 P 20 AT 55Mount St.
Charles snr & Louisa travelled in US
Chas Lishmund aged 60 from Boston Mass to GlasgowScotland
Arrival 20 Dec 1913 via Halifax ship Hesperian Allan Line
Carpenter
Mrs Lishmund aged 58 aborad same ship.
I wonder if this one is Frederick/ Clifford Lishmund
Frederick Lishmund age 20 saleman arrived 20 March 1910 Southampton from New York White Star Line Adriatic.
Frederick travels out on 18 Oct 1909 aboard St Louis from Southampton to New York a salesman b Devonport age given as 24.
Tazzie
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Hiya Muggins.....does the name Farrant mean anything to you ?....he has a familytree as follows
LUTLEY..all in Devon..village-then year -then number
Hemyock,Devon ...1780 to 1881......17
Yarcombe, Devon....1786 to 1823....;..3
Clayhidon Devon.....1766...................1
Awliscombe,Devon...1843...................1
I have his e-mail address if you want it
the earliest I can find is (this is nice)...1378....in the village of LUTLEY in Shropshire....so that`s where the name originates....if you google lutley shropshire it would appear Loughton Hall was the residence of the very rich LUTLEY family..............so we`ve gone back 650 years to Shropshire.....there are a couple of top family trees on that google where you may find some relevant info.....all the poor Lutley family were sent to Devon...ha ha.....only joking...anyway, looks very interesting....allan
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Hi Allen -
No, I've never heard of that name... All I know is that my great-grandfather Thomas Lutley was born in Plymouth and baptized in the parish of Bickleigh on Jan. 10, 1871, along with his brothers William and John and his sisters Mary, Fanny and Jane (apparently two younger brothers - Frederick and Frank were baptized at a later date). I had no idea they did 'batch baptisms' - seems a little odd....
Anyway, Thomas was in the British Army, Royal Engineers (Sapper #21977) when he moved to Nova Scotia. His parents were a William and Jane (nee?) Lutley, (apparently William was also a yeoman in the army). No other info....
Hmmm - Loughton Hall, Lutley, Shropshire, eh? Sounds impressive, but yes, I probably do come from the 'poor' Lutleys! :D
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hi muggins,
louisa lishmund's maiden name is santillo. She died on 23 october 1934 and lived at 5 essex st plymouth. She did have a son frederick born 9 september 1889 devonport and died 20 november 1931 adelaide australia.He is my grandfather.
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Hello Kbotts -
Thank you kindly for the info! Frederick Clifford Lishmund was your grandfather? How interesting! I will have to do some digging and sort out the different tips I've gotten, as someone else (see above in posting thread) says Charles' wife's name was Louisa 'Rowe' and that they married in 1885, after several of their children were born. All I know for sure is that she was born in 1854. Would you happen to know Frederick's siblings names? Was there a Mabel Lishmund? That was my great grandmother. She married John George Buckney Horne.
Thanks again.
Muggins
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Hi muggins,
your mabel is my grandfather sister! I'm not sure when charles and louisa were married.
Frederick was the last born. i'm not sure but did mabel move to canada?
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Hi kbotts-
Yes, after Mabel married John Buckney Horne (a paymaster in the navy), he was transferred to the Canadian navy and they sailed for Nova Scotia. Their first son John Edmund Horne (my grandfather) was born during the crossing. They had 5 more children over the years. Mabel and her husband eventually settled in Victoria, British Columbia, and that's where they lived out the remainder of their lives.
Muggins
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That now makes sense....
Louisa Santillo
William Henry Rowe appear on the same page for marriages
Stoke Damerel 1873
Now a William Henry Rowe b 1845 dies Stoke Damerel in 1883.
Wonder if that is him.
Tazzie
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hey tazzie, what makes sense? did louisa mary william? i'm confused!!!!
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Me too! ;D
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Ok ....
There is a marriage in 1873 Stoke Damerel District. On the page are...
Susanna Parkhouse
William Henry Rowe
George Ryder
Louisa Santillo vol number 5b page 637.
This is the only marriage for a Louisa Santillo That I can see. An d Susannah Ryder now matching the 1871 details for a Susannah Parkhouse appears in 1881.
Is the name Santillo from a birth cert of one of the children?
Louisa could have married William Henry Rowe....... left him.......could not remarry as divorce too costly....... William dies ...... Louisa then marries Charles Lishmund.
The Charles Lishmund Cert of 1885 will give you her fathers name. The same for the marriage to William Rowe. Proof is needed to confirm or deny any of the above but Santillo and Lishmund do not match on the same marriage.
Tazzie
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Ok ....
There is a marriage in 1873 Stoke Damerel District. On the page are...
Susanna Parkhouse
William Henry Rowe
George Ryder
Louisa Santillo vol number 5b page 637.
This is the only marriage for a Louisa Santillo That I can see. An d Susannah Ryder now matching the 1871 details for a Susannah Parkhouse appears in 1881.
Is the name Santillo from a birth cert of one of the children?
Louisa could have married William Henry Rowe....... left him.......could not remarry as divorce too costly....... William dies ...... Louisa then marries Charles Lishmund.
The Charles Lishmund Cert of 1885 will give you her fathers name. The same for the marriage to William Rowe. Proof is needed to confirm or deny any of the above but Santillo and Lishmund do not match on the same marriage.
Tazzie
and this would explain why the children were born BEFORE the marriage to Charles Lishmund...they couldn`t marry until William died
so Louisa was born SANTILLO....pat on the back for Tazzie...good research....allan :)
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Thanks tazzie for explaining all that. yes santiilo is from a birth certificate my grandfathers frederick lishmund.
kbtts :)
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Possible census and Parents for Louisa;
1861 Census
Stoke Damerel, Devon
RG9/1450/32/9
Peter SANTILLO, 65, Head, Mar, Musician, born Sicily/British Subject
Eliza, 42, Wife, Mar, born Devon, Devonport
Martha, 17, Daug, Unm, born Devonport
LANERZER, 7, Daug, Scholar, born Devonport
Edward, 2, Son, born Devonport
+ 8 lodgers, all Seaman
I have looked for a Birth Reg on FreeBMD using soundex and the closest I can find is;
Mary Louisa Santillo, December 1842, Plymouth
But she is 12yrs too old and does not match possible Census I found or age of Louisa from other census.
Trish :)
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1871 Census
Stoke Dameral, Devon
RG10/2134/52/7
Eliza SANTILLA, 32 (52), Head, Widow, Mangle Woman, born Ealstone, Wiltshire
LOUISA, 17, daug, Unm, Dressmaker, born Plymouth, Devon
Edward, 12, Son, Scholar, born Plymouth, Devon
Image looks like age 52 for Eliza.
Death;
Peter SANTILLO, September 1865, Stoke D, 5b 209
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Now I really dont want to throw another spanner into the works but ::)
It appears Peter did not marry Eliza until September 1857
Marriage;
Peter SANTILLO, September 1857, Plymouth, 5b 400
Eliza FREDERICK is one spouse.
I cant find Martha Santillo born c 1844 before the 1861 Census so she could be Elizas daughter and a Frederick.
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Birth of Louisa?
Louisa FREDRICK March 1854 Plymouth 5b 265
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Looks good to me Cat ;D
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Cant find the family in 1851 though, ancestry playing up, no one in Devon at all according to them!! Guess the Devon census is down at the minute :-\
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How about this from the 1851 census
15 Eldad Place, Plymouth
Eliza Frederick H wid 33 born Stonehouse
Martha " dau 4 London
Edward " son 11 Chatham, Kent
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;D
I'm flabbergasted! You guys are amazing - super sleuths! You keep digging away and coming up with more pieces to the puzzle!
I had no idea there were so many people who love researching these things.
Thank you all so much (tazzie, trish, garstonite, CatOne, Wred, and Kbotts)! So let me see if I've followed this convoluted tale...
Louisa Lishmund (mother of my great grandmother Mabel) was born Louisa Santillo (her parents were Peter Santillo and Eliza Frederick), but Eliza was married before (and had a couple of children from that marriage), so Frederick was not her maiden name??
(So Kbotts - Frederick really was Mabel's younger brother!)
Thanks again - next time I'm in the UK I will buy you all a pint! ;)
Muggins
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Hi Muggins,
You'll have to come to Sydney too ;D
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LUTLEY;
1881 Census
1 Plym Street,
Plymouth Charles the Martyr,Devon
RG11/2193/20/39
William L LUKEY, 47, Head, Mar, Warehouseman/Storeman, born Wivilscombe, Somerset
Jane, 44, Wife, mar, born Wivilscombe
THOMAS, 19, Son, Unm, Gardener, born Bristol
William, 18, Son, Unm, Butcher, born Taunton
Mary, 16, Daug, Unm, general servant, born Tavistock, devon
Fanny, 15, Daug, Unm, born Bickleigh, Devon
Jane, 14, Daug, Unm, born Bickleigh
John, 11, Son, Scholar, born Bickleigh
Edith, 9, Daug, Scholar, born Bickleigh# ( see birth entry below)
Robert, 8, Son, Scholar, born Bickleigh
Fred, 6, Son, Scholar, born Bickleigh
Frank, 5, Son, Scholar, born Tamerton Foliott
1871 Census ( under SUTLEY)
Shilstone,
Bickleigh, Devon
RG10/2110/74/14
William L LUTLEY, 42, Farmer of 35 Acres employing 1 man and 1 boy, born Wivilscombe, Somerset
Jane, 56, born Wivilscombe
TOM, 9, born Wivilscombe
William, 7, Wivilscombe
Mary, 6, born Tavistock, Devon
Fanny, 5, born Tavistock
Jane, 4, born Bickleigh
John, 1, born Bickleigh
Ann LOWDEN, 17, Servant, Domestic servant, born Bickleigh
William and Janes ages are way out from 1881 Census but children match ???
How did he go from a Farmer to Warehouseman?
1891 Census ( under LATHEY)
3 Devonshire St,
Charles, Devon
RG12/1727/31/55
William L LUTLEY, 38 (58), Head, Widower, Labourer, born Wivilscombe
Edith P, 18, Daug, Unm, Dressmaker, Bickleigh
Robert, 17, Son, Unm, General lab, born Bickleigh
Fred, 16, Son, Unm, Labourer, born Bickleigh
Frank 15,, Son, Unm, Rrrand boy, born Lamerton, Devon
George EVELY, 198, (19), Boarder, Lab, born Cornwall
John, 17, Boarder, Labourer,born Cornwall
Mary A, 15, Boarder,born Cornwall
Image is age 58 for William
Death;
Jane LUTLEY, June 1883, Plymouth, 5b 167, Age 43
( so born c 1840)
Possible 1861;
1861 Census
Hartswell,
Wivilscombe, Somerset
RG
John LUTLEY, 42, Head, Unm, Farmer of 137 Acres employing 4 men/2 boys, born Wivilscombe
Mary Lutley, 66, Mother, widow, born Cutcumbe
Mary Pugsley Lutley, 35. Sister, Unm, born Wivilscombe
WILLIAM Lutley, 28, brother, Unm, Farmer, born Wivilscombe
+ 1 servant
Marriage;
William Lutley LUTLEY, September 1864, Plymouth, 5b 495
On the same page, Jane WEBBER
EXTRA confirmation;
Edith Lutleys birth Reg;
Edith Pugsley LUTLEY, Sept 1872, Plymton St Mary, 5b 213
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1841 Census ( under LEUTLEY)
The Parsonage,
Wivilscombe,Somerset
HO107/950/9/Wivilscombe
Eleazor LUTLEY, 85, Independant
John, 50, Farmer
Mary, 45
John, 20
Henry, 15
Mary,15
Thomas, 13
WILLIAM, 9
Robert, 20, Surveyors Apprentice
All born in County
+ 3 Servants
1851 Census ( under SUTLEY)
Parsonage House,
Wivilscombe
HO107/1921/54/15
John lLUTLEY, 62,Head, Mar, Farmer 1234 Acres employing 4 men/4 boys, born Wivilscombe
Mary, 57, Wife, Mar, Farmers wife, born Cutcombe
Mary P, 24,Daug, Unm, Farmers daughter, born Wivilscombe
WILLIAM L, 18, Son, Unm, Farmers son, born Wivilscombe
Harriett WEBBER, 19, Servant, born Clakworthy Somerset
( oh I wonder if Harriett is Janes sister)
Back later,
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish!
Very helpful indeed!
I must practise accessing all these censuses - they're an amazing source!
(OK - I could come to Sydney and buy you a pint... or ... we could meet in Devon!) ;D
Muggins
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hi louisa
my name is barry reid,
i am related to the lutley family,
i have information on the lutley family,
of bickliegh wiveliscombe tamerton,
is it possible if we can talk on the telephone sometime
reply if its ok.
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Hi Barry -
My user name is actually Muggins. Louisa Lishmund is a topic (someone esle I was looking up). As you can see from the previous posts, I have gotten quite a lot of info on the Lutleys already! All the censuses have been very helpful. If you have more info, please feel free to post it here, in reply!
Thanks.
Muggins
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hi muggins i have info on a tom lutley in nova scotia,on the lutleys in bickleigh/tamerton foliot ,i also have so much family history on the wiveliscombe family going right back to the1100.plus photos.so if i can be of any help i will be ready to be of assistance.
Barry
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Hi Muggins,I have realised you are from Nova Scotia,few years a go I was in touch with a Cristine Lutley from Hawaii,whose parents live in Nova Scotia whoare related to Tom and marie Lutley who I have a photo of which I sent to her,and I have quite a lot of info on his life.He is the brother of my G>Grandad,William Lutley.
As to the 1881 census it is not william Luckey it is Lutley as in the same as in the 1871 census,i dont know where you got the name Sutley from,Reason, went to from farmer(Yeoman) as is a land owner,he had to get out of the Maristow Inn at Bickley by Lord Robough,to The Seven Stars Inn at Tamerton Fioliot.It was through the dreaded drink he landed up as a Warehouseman/storeman.His father was John Lutley Who was a farmer in Wiveliscombe,I also have the marriage certificate of William L Lutley and Jane webber.Is it possible to send this info to Cancer Lutley,and see if this is any use to her or yourself.
Barry Reid.
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I, too am researching the Buckleigh area and the MARISTOW INN in particular. Can anyone help me with the history of the house.
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Hi I realise your post is old but Louisa Lishmund's maiden name was Santillo. I'm not sure if she was born in Italy but she stated on a census form that her parents were born there. She immigrated from England to Canada in 1903 and don't hink Charles went with her.
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Hi Muggins, I know this post is fairly old, but there's a good chance we're related via the Lishmund family, most of them go back to my 4th great grandparents, John Lishmund (1777 - 1843) and Jane Giles (1781 - 1844).
Both were Devon born, but finding information about them is proving very difficult indeed!
One of their daughters, Mary Lishmund (1810 - 1866) who married William Kerslake Sargent is my 3rd great grandmother.
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Louisa Lishmund was born circa 1854 in Devonport Devonshire England and her mother Eliza Santillo was born in Plymouth, Devon circa 1813 tho I can't find any reference to who her father was. Her daughter Lily married my great great uncle Robert Bright and emmigrated to Victoria British Colombia, Canada along with Lily's sister Mabel and her husband John George Buckney Horne..
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Hi Muggins, seeing as your great grand mother was Mabel can you tell me if her sister Lily who married my great great uncle Robert Bright from Ireland had any children together?
thnx
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I've just been reading through and absorbing all this, and maybe a little summary would help some of you folks.
These records have been posted in the thread, from FreeBMD:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
Louisa was actually born:
FREDRICK Louisa March 1854 Plymouth 5b 265
Her mother didn't marry Peter SANTILLO until 1857:
Frederick Eliza Plymouth 5b 400
Santillo Peter Plymouth 5b 400
But Louisa was obviously reared as a Santillo (even if Mr Santillo was not her father) and married as Santillo in 1873:
ROWE William Henry Stoke D. 5b 637
SANTILLO Louisa Stoke D. 5b 637
However, she was estranged from Mr. Rowe and partnered with (and had children with) Mr. Lishmund before marrying him in 1885 (after Mr. Rowe died):
LISHMUND Charles Stoke D. 5b 602
Rowe Louisa Stoke D. 5b 602
I hope that helps anybody new coming along who hasn't managed to follow the twisty trail. ;)
(The 1891 census was posted already in 2010 -- best to read the thread before starting to duplicate what has already been done. The easy way to read the entire thread at once, in start-to-finish order, is to click on the PRINT link in the upper right, and that will show the whole thing.)
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It looks as though the parents of Charles were Edward T (Tonkin?) Lishmund and Emlyn.
There's a good chance he's a cousin of my 2nd great grandfather or a 2nd cousin of my great grandfather.
I shall do some digging and I mentioned Tonkin because I know there was a relative on that side of the family who was named exactly that.
What an unbelievably complicated tale :) lol
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Sorry, it's not Edward T Lishmund, it's Edward F Lishmund, the F being for Frost, who was the younger brother of my 3rd great grandmother, making Charles a cousin of my great, great grandfather, William Henry Wyatt Sargent (who was one of seven).
If you'd like any details you might not have, get in touch, I have a cousin in Canada who knows a fair amount about them. :)
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Posted in error ::)
Jennifer
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I have Charles as being possibly the youngest child of Edward Frost Lishmund (1812 - Plymouth) and Emblin Maria Trebane (1809 - Launceston).
His siblings were Mary Jane Lishmund (1842 - Plymouth), Emily Amelia Lishmund (1846 - Stoke Damarel) and John Henry Lishmund (1849 - Stoke Damarel) and this man had two sons and a daughter, one of whom being the aforementioned Charles H Lishmund.
Very happy to help :)
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Hi Muggins, seeing as your great grand mother was Mabel can you tell me if her sister Lily who married my great great uncle Robert Bright from Ireland had any children together?
thnx
It seems they had only one child:
Births Dec 1903
BRIGHT Lilian Maud Devonport 5b 310
This is the most likely marriage for her:
(search at http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl )
Marriages Jun 1928
Atherton John H Bright Devonport 5b 754
Bright Lilian M Atherton Devonport 5b 754
and then you can search for Atherton births with mother Bright (which would be too recent to post here as the people could be living - there seems to have been only one).
(edit - Ladijane - less confusing if you just reply in the thread! You're welcome, and I'm not one of the family in the thread, just a RootsChat member, and being in Canada can sometimes help track people who disappeared in this direction. ;) )
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Thanks all - for these tidbits. I've been away from this site for a while. All I can tell you, JaneyCanuck, about Lily Bright (what a name!) is that she eventually moved to B.C., as she is mentioned in my great-grandmother Mabel's obituary. I never heard much about that side of the family because my grandfather Jack Horne (Mabel's son) left my grandmother when my mother was a young girl, and lived out his life on the west coast, in B.C., whereas I grew up on the east coast of Canada. It would be nice to learn a little more about the Lishmunds - I've only gotten as far back as Charles, so the info below from Artognou is appreciated...
Thanks!
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Hi Muggins, I'm only too happy to help!
I'll put what information I have here;
There was John Lishmund (1777 - 1843) and Jane Giles (1781 - 1844), both died in Plymouth.
John was recorded as being from Oxford Rd, Plymouth and was buried 10th September, at Charles the Martyr church, Plymouth.
Their children were Edmund Lishmund (1808), John Giles Lishmund (1808) and 'unknown' Lishmund (1808), Mary Lishmund (1810 - my 3rd great grandmother), Jane Giles Lishmund (1811 - 1851), Edward Frost Lishmund (Charles' father 1813 - 1883), Elizabeth Giles Lishmund (1815) and Tasmin or Tamsin Lishmund (1819).
There are a few other possibilities for other siblings, but I shall contact this relative in Saskatchewan and get his valued opinion.
As of yet, finding John and Jane's parents have proven extremely difficult, but I hold out hope!