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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: Kylie B on Saturday 17 April 10 09:03 BST (UK)
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Hi
Does anyone know anything about James Mossman- who was apparently a supporter of Mary Queen of Scots and after being captured defending Edinburgh castle against the English, was executed on 3rd May 1573 with William Kirkcaldy? I have read one report that said his head was then put on a pike on the walls of the castle...
As far as I know, James had been jeweler and goldsmith to Mary Queen of Scots.
His first wife was Marriotte Arres, who he married about 1564- they had a son John I believe.
I dont know when Marriotte died, but James then married Janet King- daughter of Alexander King, advocate in 1570.
I am curious to know more about James, and also wonder what would have become of his wife and son if he was executed by the crown??
Any help would be grand- thanks very much!
Kylie B
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Hi Kylie,
don't know if you have these Links but here goes, these links take you directly to the pages.
It would be possible that their belongings and anything else they owned would have been confiscated, looking at this makes me think that his family would have been put on the streets without anything.
I can't find anything on the family after the event concerning James, I hope what I have given you may help a little.
Best regards.
Archie.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Hl8VAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA145&dq=james+mossman+1573&hl=en&ei=lIAeTP6UHceH4QbB3fmIDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEoQ6AEwCDge#v=onepage&q=james%20mossman%201573&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ET8IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA422&dq=james+mossman+1573&hl=en&ei=-oEeTMLfDuKJ4gbrht2sDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwADgo#v=onepage&q=james%20mossman%201573&f=false
http://www.leithhistory.co.uk/2006/11/27/civil-war/ this link is to Google Books it explains what he had done, http://books.google.com/books?id=VTNNh7yai2oC&pg=PA278&dq=james+mossman+1573&hl=en&ei=WHceTJWkA5KD4QaV9uGMDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=james%20mossman%201573&f=false
This is another one, http://books.google.com/books?id=C8UZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA324&dq=james+mossman+1573&hl=en&ei=434eTJrcG5P64AaUz62EDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=james%20mossman%201573&f=false
The gold framework of the crown of Scotland was refashioned by James Mossman in Edinburgh about 1540,
James Mossman, was the owner of the building in the High Street which is now called John Knox's House.
Grange and goldsmith James Mossman (constructor of 'John Knox's' house) were dragged backwards in a cart and hanged at the Mercat Cross.
James Mossman and James Leckie, goldsmiths, were hanged on the third of August, 1573, and their heads afterwards set up on the most prominent places of the castle wall.
John Knox House is one of Scotland's most important medieval buildings at the hub of the city's commercial, cultural and religious identity. This, the first authoritative account of its history, reflects the life and work of Scotland's most famous Protestant reformer. The narrative also incorporates the story of Sir James Mossman, who died for the Catholic faith in 1573.
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Hi Archie
I hadnt seen any of these- despite doing a search for James Mossman- so thanks very much.
It would seem James's wife Janet made petition to the King- found something on the parlimentary records site- that seems to indicate she was granted a remission...of what I am not sure. So hopefully it means she was not left entirely high and dry- and hopefully her own family would have been able to help her.
Any ideas on how I might find out what was 'remissed' to her? Or if she even remarried after James Mossman's death?
Thanks again for the links and info Archie- much appreciated!
Kylie
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Hi Kylie,
glad to be of help, here is a cracking site about Mossman and it is your one, just click on the Mossman name in blue, loads of information, I think you will be quite happy with this.
http://historical.whitleynet.org/kaler.htm
Here is another one. http://glasgowsculpture.com/pg_biography.php?sub=mossman_w
If I can get more I will send it to you.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Thanks for these Archie- they are great!
I am still trying to find something that makes mention of James' second wife Janet King though....they apparently married in 1570, so 3 year before he was killed. But I have not found any mention of any children of their marriage. THis stuff says James' son John from his first marriage inherited his fathers lands 19 years later...but what happened to Janet and any children in the intervening period???
Still also trying to work out if James was executed for being Catholic and supporting Mary Queen of Scots, or actual fraud...!!
THanks again Archie- every little clue helps!
Kylie B
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Hi Kylie,
I am sorry if this list is to long but I felt that it might help. I have also attached the James Mossman Coat of Arms which is on the frontage of the house in the High Street, notice that the " J " is an " I ".
Best Regards.
Archie.
On the 16th December 1558 the Magistrates and Council caused James Mossman, Goldsmith, in their presence to weigh particularly the whole Kirk jewels and vakuables.
NOTES ON THE SCOTTISH MINTS.
1538. John Mossman, warden
1564-1567. James Mossman, assayer.
The Laird of Restalrig, though condemned to die also, was afterwards set free, but on the same scaffold with Kirkcaldy was hanged another of the Castilians, as they were called, James Mossman, Queen Mary’s goldsmith, whose initials and coat-of-arms, with other interesting carved stonework, still adorn his ancient booth in the High Street—now John Knox’s House. Mossman’s descendants of the same name are still goldsmiths in Edinburgh, as one may see from the name over the doorway of the jeweller’s shop at 134 Princes Street.
The link below explains exactly how they all died, not very nice, it would seem that there was no actual burial place mentioned.
http://books.google.com/books?id=2UMFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA132&dq=james+mossman%27s+trial+in+edinburgh&hl=en&ei=mnYiTNP-H9CC_QbA2-2DBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
On checking Marriotte’s surname it seems that it is Spanish only its spelling is Ares, Ares was the Greek War God also known as Mars.
Canongate Marriages.
Robert Mosman married Margaret Fender 5 April 1608
Jeane Mossman married William Robertsoun 9 Dec 1615
Marioun Mosman married William Gembill 15 April 1627
Mungo Mosman married Dorrathie Gyllour 3 Aug 1630
Agnes Mosman married George Trob 6 Feb 1646
Margaret Mosman married William Orrok 7 June 1663
Catharen Mosman married James Trotter 7 May 1665
James Mossman married Helen Steell 30 Nov 1776
Edinburgh Parish Marriages.
Jonat Mosman married George Peirsone 18 Jan 1597
Katharine Moseman married Johnne Finlawsoune 1 Feb 1597
Jonat Moseman married Johnne Owall 28 Sept 1597
Cuthbert Moseman married Sibillia Mosie 31 May 1608
Elspet Mosman married Andrew Makmath 23 Oct 1617
Bessie Mosman married Walter Scot 6 Feb 1621
Marione Mosman Married Williame Gemmill 13 June 1627
Thomas Mosman married Bessie Cowts 11 July 1633
George Mosman married Jonet Scotte 9 April 1640
Marione Mosman married Johnne Gemmill 24 Aug 1643
Issobell Mosman married David King 29 Jan 1646
Williame Mossman married Agnes Peires 25 June 1646
Marione Mosman married David Wightman 7 June 1649
Esther Mosman married William Auld 3 June 1652
George Mosman married Margaret Patoun 3 Nove 1658
Margaret Mossman married William Henderson 30March 1665
Jonet Mossman married Patrik Crafurd 7 July 1670
William Mossman married Margaret Chrtstion 4 July 1673
James Mossman married Margeret Sympson 16 Nov 1677
Bessie Mossman married George Twaddell 18 Dec 1679
William Mosman married Eupham Hay 8 July 1687
Elisabeth Mosman ( Father George Mosman ) married Charles McKie 31 March 1700
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THanks so much for all of this Archie!
The book is a wonderful- if pretty gruesome- summary of what became James Mossman.
Looking at all those marriages, doesnt seem like there are any outstanding ones likely to be Janet his widow...but perhaps she remarried using her own name??
I understand from these book links you have sent that James Mossman was the son of anther James Mossman. It also seems my James Mossman had a son John by his first wife. No sign of other children.
Thanks for the coat of arms- that is brilliant. I have been reading about Know House on the net. Would love to see it someday!
Kylie B
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Kylie, I too have been trying to unravel this man. We have been told we descend from him but have also been told we are from Australian Mossmans. We know for certain we are from Archibald M whose father George died when he was 6 wks old. George is said to be buried in Berwick Upon Tweed Holy Trinity Church. George's father was "John of Scremerston". From there back we are at a standstill - for now - I won't give up - still have some sources to search. As for the Knox House in Edinburgh, I have been there. It is a beautiful bldg set in the "middle" of Kings Row. I was flabergasted to find the Mossman name, etc, all over the bldg. I had no knowledge before I was there that our name was so prevalent. For what it is worth, and at the moment not worth much because I can't remember how I came across the info, but James was not only hangit because of Mary Queen of Scots, but because of counterfeiting that was being done in the "basement" of the castle when it was overrun. All of Scotland is a beautiful place - and I can't wait to return. The Scottish Historical Society in Edinburgh is a place I have not been able to research yet. Have to get my eggs in the basket so I know what I am after - too many fires going now. If you need me, yell. Andee (Yukon, Okla)
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Hi Andee
I am still stuck on James Mossman- I have found references to his marriage to Janet King daughter of Alexander King advocate, (second wife) but no idea of children from the marriage. I did find comment of a son John from his first marriage- but then not sure what became of him.
Not sure what happened to Janet after James was hung- and re the counterfeiting, I have read a couple of articles that claim that charge was trumped up!! And in fact he was 're-making' some of the crown jewels into other jewelry that could be divided out amongst supporters of Mary Queen of Scots and thereby kep safe until the true family was back on the crown.
So I guess your concept of counterfeiting depends on your loyalties and perspective!!!
Will let you know if I have any breakthrough's- and let me know if you see any signs of Janet King widow of James or any children of James!
Kylie B
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Where did you find info about Janet King? All I have seen was Mariotta Arres, and if my faulty memory serves me, that is the name that was at the Mosman/Knox house. Could Janet have been a first wife and then Mariotta the second w/ son John? I need to contact the Scottish historical society in Edinburgh. I can't remember the street name, but can see it in my head! Is on a kind of circular lane just down from the Greyfriars church. Will see what I can find. It was a unique little place - all kinds of books and "stuff".
Andee
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Hi Andee
It was in the Scottish Parlimentary records online- there is a remission allowing Janet King- spouse of deceased James Mossman to continuet o live in property he left her. This was after his execution.
No other sign of her as his wife....
Kylie B
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"Grandfather" (Sir Andrew Mosman) was knighted by Margaret Tudor in the name of James V after he survived the battle at Flodden field. Sir Andrew also fought at, and survived, the battle at Solway Moss. His son, Sir John Mosman (Glasgow), incarcerated in Tobooth prison, Edinburgh in the time of James V (1513-1532) on account of his loyalty to the crown. He effected an escape to Holland. In 1540 Sir John redesigned an older, lighter, damaged crown for James V, into its current form. These are the oldest set of Crown Jewels in the British Isles and the second oldest in Europe. The crown was first worn by James V to the coronation of his second wife, Mary of Guise, as queen consort at Holyrood Abbey, Edinburgh, in the year of its manufacture. It was subsequently used in the coronations of the child monarchs Mary, Queen of Scots in 1543 and her son James VI, King of Scots in 1567 and today can still be seen in Edinburgh Castle.
The Mosmans were a long-standing family of goldsmiths. Sir James Mosman was Sir John Mosman's son. The Mosmans were removed from their court offices as goldsmiths and royal assays in the Protestant revolution of 1559–60 but restored to favour when Mary returned from France in 1561.
Sir James Mosman had two sons, John (b 1565 - d1608) from his first wife, Marriotta (Arres) (wed 1556, d 12/23/1570), and James (b ~1571-?) from his second wife Janet (King) wed 2/23/1571. He also had two daughters, Janet & Marriotta.
In 1568, James Mosman and Marriotta Arres conveyed the house at 43 High Street, known now as the John Knox house, to John Mosman, goldsmith, their son and his heirs in fee, but reserved to themselves the liferent for the while lives. We learn from a sasine of February 23rd, 1571, that Marriotta Arres was dead (from pneumonia), and that James Mosman was about to marry for the second time. He bought back the fee from his son, and immediately insert himself and his future spouse Janet King in the family residence in the Netherbow. Because John Knox appeared to have lived for a short time there and then died, historians have rennovated the house through the ages and it still stands as the best example of a building from that time period.
For his service to the crown, James was knighted during Mary’s wedding to Henry Darnley and awarded a crest with the motto: more honorable, more dependable, more worthy of trust than the rest. Mosman was one of the Queen’s Men who occupied and defended Edinburgh Castle in her name. Not only did Mosman set up a ‘cunyie’ or mint in the Castle, but he seems to have pawned the royal jewels, against his own security, to finance its defense and effect the release of Queen Mary from Elizabeth’s prisons in England. He was captured and tortured to reveal the location of the queen's jewels which he had hidden within the castle walls. It is unclear whether he revealed their location, or whether they were easily found. While many of the Queen’s Men were pardoned in an attempt to end the civil war, Mosman was one of the few leaders picked out for punishment. Having lost all his worldly goods he was dragged behind a cart past his house backwards and hung, drawn and quartered at the Mercat Cross in 1573. The writ of execution said the head was to remain on a pike until the winds blew it down…however Janet, his widow, was able to pay to have it removed. He may have been buried in the cemetary at the back of St. Giles Church which is now a parking lot.
Nov 12, London, John Mosman to the Queen of Scots. Begs that she will give him a sum of money to set him up in trade for the support of himself and the other children of James Mosman, their father, who was hanged with the Laird of Greange, because he was her Grace’s Master Ciner and true subject.
In 1581 lands were assigned to John, “ the eldest son of the late James Mosman, goldsmith…” These lands were sold the following year with the consent of his uncle John Mosman.
John apprenticed as a goldsmith with his uncle, John Mosman, as did his brother
James, later in 1586.
Mary, Queen of Scotts was executed on February 8, 1587.
John Mosman Sr. (son of Sir James) had a son, John Jr. (b 1600 - d 1633) who married Isabel (Gardner) and had a son named James Mosman (b 1626-d 1722) who married Anna and immigrated to America and the Massachusetts Bay Colony and settled in Wrentham, MA around 1675 to be a blacksmith. Because of the indian wars with King Phillip, James and Anna left Wrentham in 1676 and settled in Roxbury, MA.
There is a street called Mossman off of the Old Sudbury Road near Waltham, MA, and tomestones of the Mosmans in the Old Revolutionary Cemetary. Many descendants of the Mosman family lived there in Sudbury, MA and in Maine. My great grandfather moved from there to Minnesota, where my mom was born.
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John Knox never lived in the Mossman house. He stayed nearby in a house rented from John Adamson. There are two papers in the Pr. Soc. Ant. Scot. which set out the evidence.
Graham.
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Hi DallasDeb
That is quite a history- thanks very much!
Have you seen the sasine taking back the fee from his son prior to his marriage to Janet King?
And can you tell me- were the daughters Janet and Mariotta named after their respective mothers? Or were they both daughters of Janet King?
And where did you find the detail that Janet King paid to have her husbands head taken down- poor man- rather than be left as directed?
And lastly- thank you for the date of marriage for James Mossman and Janet King. I had not been able to find that as yet.
Kylie
PS Thanks Graham- there seems to be quite a bit of confusion over whether John Knox lived in the house or not- depends who you ask!! Good to know for sure now.
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I haven't seen the sasine with my own eyes...everything I find is online - Goggle books and the like.
re: John knox...there is a lot of conflicting evidence/opinions -I'll add Graham's to my list. In the end, people believed Knox lived there...which is nice for the upkeep of the house and makes for a good story since the Mosman's served Mary so devotedly and Knox hated her and her devotion to her catholic faith. :o)
More I found:
Their family home was confiscated by the English and allegedly given to John Knox to live in during the siege of the castle because either his own house was damaged or in the firing line during the two years of battering by the English artillery. This is where Knox lived in frail health until he died. It is possible that James’s widow, Janet, requested that the house be returned to her after Knox’s death as she was destitute as all the family monies had been used to cover the pawning of Mary’s Jewels in order to affect her release. . Because it is known as “John Knox's house” it has been well kept and restored through the ages so it still stands today as one of the oldest buildings in Edinburgh along the Royal Mile of High Street. The building was known to be renovated in the 1850’s and in the early 2000’s.*
* From John Knox and the Town Council of Edinburgh by Robert Miller pg. 137.
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We learn from a sasine of February 23rd, 1571, that Mariot Arres was dead, and that James Mosman was about to marry for the second time. So what was more natural than that he should secure a residence for his wife in what was probably then one of the best houses in Edinburgh and also to prevent her from being obliged to leave the family abode in the event of his pre-decease. He bought back the fee from his son, and immediately insert himself and his future spouse Janet King in the family residence in the Netherbow. pg 140 Mosman needed the house for himself and the sasine of February 1571 shows that he took it back from his son. Mosman, besides, was a strong supporter of the Queen, and it was not at all natural that he should let his house to Knox, even if family necessities had not stood in the way. Supporters of Knox living in the house say from August 1572 until Knox’s death in November he lived there. Some say Mosman’s house was empty as he had taken refuge with Kirkcaldy of Grange in the Castle, and he remained there until the surrender of the Castle in 1573. However, there had been a truce between the parties which was concluded on July 31st, 1572, for two months, and it was extended subsequently until the end of the year, more than a month beyond the date of Knox’s death. A listing of tenants for the house in the Edinburgh Protocols, by Alexander Guthrie, VolI., fol. 41, 8 April 1563, John Knox, ministers. Register of Deeds, Vol. 8, fol. 1l, 24 March 1564, “Johnne Knox, minister of Edinburgh.” Do. Vol. III., fol. 40, 29 April 1630. A sasine of 1571 show the property as being “presently occupied by John Knox, minister.” Knox lived there from August 1572 until his death in November, but a sasine of February 1571 shows that James Mosman needed the house for himself and he took it back from his son John.
The info on the payment for head came from Geni.com I believe.
Daughters: Janet Mosman was born in 1573 and Marion Mosman in 1577 (I wrote Mariotta in error )according to Geni.com which means she was born long after Sir James was executed. Geni.com also lists all of them as step children...which seems incorrect.
Also saw mentioned that Sir James’s teenage son (John) wrote to Mary in prison in England begging for her help and offering to serve her as a courier*. Don't know the date of that document...but would be interesting if it was just prior to the conspiracy that was discovered and had many of Mary's servants executed. (*from the 2003 Journal of the Marie Stuart Society)
Could be this was the same, or another letter: Nov 12, London, John Mosman to the Queen of Scots. Begs that she will give him a sum of money to set him up in trade for the support of himself and the other children of James Mosman, their father, who was hanged with the Laird of Greange, because he was her Grace’s Master Ciner and true subject. (from Geni.com)
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Hi DallasDeb
Hmm- seems we need to do some more investigating doesnt it?
If James Mossman married Marriotta in 1556- and died in 1570, then there is the possibility of far more children than just John- although it seems he was eldest son at least.
Also interesting to note- there was barely 2 months between Marriotta's death and his marriage to Janet King if these dates from Geni.com are correct.....thats a very short period!
And the letter of Nov 12 to Mary says other children- so at least that tends to confirm there was definately more than just John.
Could Janet have been marrying for a second time when she married JAmes Mossman, and therefore brought children with her??
I will do some more digging- let me know if you find anything more!!
Kylie
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my ancestor is robert mossman son of james a jeweller in edinburgh. robert was on the scottish expedition nova scotia 1910c. i am very interested to know if he is related to james mossman 1573.ann
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HI,
One of my direct ancestors was John Mosman who had married Isobell Gardner. I have been trying to figure out how he fits in the James Mosman family tree. Supposely he was born in Edinburg in the early 1600s. Was James his father or grandfather? I find the story of James Mosman interesting, but sad at the same time. It was a rough period of time for Scotland and all those who lived there.
Dawn
Wisconsin, USA
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This has been great to look through. James Mossman is my 13th Great Grandfather and I’ve been looking for more information on him.
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James Mossman is my 9th Great Grandfather on my maternal Grandmothers side which now is Morseman. I really dont know why it was changed. So I say to you hello cousin. Lol
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Kenneth Freeman Mosman in a manuscript, New Evidence about the Ancestry of John Mossman (Mss A 6208) 1999, at the New England Genealogical Society records a summation that provides plausible and persuasive argument in support of Robert Mossman of Ballanahinch Co. Down being the great grandfather of immigrant John Mossman of America (1718-1802) who died on son William Herdman Mossman's tract at Mossmantown, Mercer County PA in 1802 buried at present day Rocky Ridge burial ground. The 3 male descendants of Sir James Mosman, namely, Robert, James & John, sons of John Mosman & Isobel Gardner; his great grandchildren born respectively 1620, 1626 & 1628 baptized at St. Cuthbert Presbyterian Church on Edinburgh's Royal Mile. It is conjectured, the 3 brothers migrated to Ulster after the death of their father John Mosman in 1633 sometime betwixt 1650-1663. The strain of a fatherless family and hard socio-political conditions led to their emigrating to Ulster Ireland. . Thus, Robert Mossman, great grandson of Sir James Mosman, Crown Jeweler of Mary Queen of Scots, christened at Saint Cuthbert’s, Edinburgh 16 Jul 1620, is conjected to be the same Robert Mossman, residing at Ballianahinch Co. Down IRE in 1663. Three conjectural generations of his descendants resided near Killyleagh in that county, namely, Samuel, James and John Mossman. Support for that conclusion comes from the Townland of Mallacarron, Co. Tyrone where a Samuel Mossman died in 1724 and where his conjectured grandson resided in 1766, forty-two years later, confirmed by a land lease & release at Aughnacloy and a Religious Census of Agnoloo Parish. Thus, Co. Tyrone was the heretofore unknown relocation of John Mossman’s family, say after 1757, and likely the birthplace of his three youngest children, namely John b. c1759, Lillias b. c1763 and William Herdman b. 1765. The Mossman Family is next recorded in of Mercer Co. Pennsylvania.
William Herdman Mossman was commissioned a Capt. in the 135th PA Militia 1807-1811. Between 1808-1808 William was commissioned by the PA Militia 16th Division in northwest PA to make 26 drums which were used in the War of 1812. He owned large tracts of land in the NW corner of West Salem Twp. Mercer Co. OH near the Ohio border at Kinsman. Mossmantown was on his 427 acre tract including a shoe & spinning wheel factory that he built. Robert Gillis Mossman was a businessman in Greenville, proprietor of cabinet & furniture factory , woolen mills, saw mills, tannery & grist mill on Shenango above Main St.. Robert built the 1st Erie Canal boat in Greenville ‘Milnor Roberts’ which was christened at Greenville’s 4 Jul 1840 jollification. Robert was sheriff of Mercer Co. in 1836. Dr. Beriah E. Mossman brother-in-law of Dr. Reuben E. Breiner, graduated from Western Reserve Medical School in 1864. Degree of Doctor of Medicine University Pennsylvania 1879 1st honor man of 1st class. 1885-1889 served as a US pension examiner. Surgeon to the Erie & Bessemer Railroads and Medical Examiner for several prominent insurance companies. Dr. Robert Gillis Mossman, s/o Dr. Beriah Mossman also graduated from Ivy League U. PA Medical School and was a 1st Lt in the Medical Corps in WWI.