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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Iron lady on Friday 16 April 10 07:59 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I was wondering if there are any further details on the PR.
William Marsom married Elizabeth Hine on 27 Sept 1791 and they bap children in Biggleswade.
I am trying to determine which Elizabeth Hine, the bap on 14 Nov 1742 in Biggleswade would make her too old to be having children in 1801.
There is another bap in Langford on 22 Sept 1771.
Any ideas please Margaret
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Margaret;
But there also is a marriage in Langford on 26 Feb 1798 of Elizabeth Hine to Solomon Day
On 1851 census in Biggleswade, Elizabeth Day aged 78 (= 1771) is widowed mother to Eben (= Ebennezer) age 35 & Jane Day. Edenezer Day, son of Solomon & Elizabeth was baptised 8/10/1815 Biggleswade & he married Jane Judge on 7/11/1841.
regards John
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Hi Margaret,
Although they christened children in Biggleswade it does not mean they were born there themselves.
Have you found either of them on 1841 census?
Is this a possibility;
1841 Census
Biggleswade, Bedfordshire
HO107/2/5/Biggleswade
William MARISON, 70, Wool Sorter
Elizabeth, 73
Jane HATHE, 25
All born in County
There is also this christening from IGI;
Elizabeth HINE, 05 October 1766, Shillington, Bedford
Parents, JOHN and ELIZABETH
Someone born c 1766 could still easily be having children 1791-1810
You have a bit of a problem proving who your Elizabeth has as Parents I'm sorry.
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Trish,
There is a death index of William Marsom in Apr-Jun qtr 1841 in Biggleswade RD vol 6 page 39.
The 1841 census was taken on June 7th - he could have died after that
Regards John
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Hello Trish and John,
Thankyou for your input. I just wanted to try and be certain which Elizabeth Hine Willaim married
I definately have a dilemma. I had seen the 1841 entry. I had seen another tree with William 1773 married to an Elizabeth Hine bap 1742/3 biggleswade , her being 20 yrs older but she couldn't be the mother of child Elizabeth bap 1803 biggleswade at the age of 59
William and his siblings were bap in Potton to Samuel and Mary Butler.
Margaret
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I reckon that the Jane Hathe, age 25 born Not in Beds, on the 1841 census image with William & Elizabeth Marison is in fact Jane Franklin. Could you please check the image & let me know what you think.
That would tie in with the fact that Robert Phipps married Jane Franklin on 25 Dec 1841 at Biggleswade as per the IGI......and that Robert Phipps appears on the 1841 census image in the next household headed by Thomas Dean.
... & that on 1851 census in Church Street, Biggleswade we have living with Elizabeth Marsom, widow aged 84 born Old Warden (widow of a wool stapler) are grand-son & grand-daughter Robert Phipps aged 37 born Caldecote, Cambs & wife Jane age 38 born Norman Cross, Hunts
HO107/1753 Folio 569 Page 34
So what daughter of William & Elizabeth Marsom married a Phipps to give us this Robert Phipps
John
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Hi,
The Elizabeth Hine bapt 14 Nov 1742 Farther Richard Hine, Mother Sarah, Farther occ Waggoner, at Church St Andrew, Biggleswade, died, her burial 24 Nov 1742 Church St Andrew, Farther Richard Hine, Mother Sarah, Farther occ waggoner, Biggleswade Beds.
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Hi Margaret,
What children do you have for William and Elizabeth?
I could only find Thomas and Elizabeth born 1801/1803.
Hi John,
I think you have nailed it ;D
Hi Kovel,
Thank you for that as it rules her out :)
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Morning all,
The only children I have for William and Elizabeth are -
Samuel 1793 Biggleswade who married Lucy Arnold and where the confusing begins as they name one of their sons William Hine Marsom. This family seem quite well off with land and dealings with the Crown Inn. Samuel left quite a detailed Will.
Thomas 1801 who I cannot find anything about.
Elizabeth 1803
There maybe other children but I haven't found them yet.
Parents of William 1768 are Samuel and Mary Butler who also bap Ann 1771, Samuel 1772 - 1772 and Samuel 1773 all Potton
John - The Marsom children of Samuel married into my Winepress line, hense the interest
Margaret
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Margaret, Talking of wills; in the Probate Records at Bedford index there's an entry for Eliz Marsom of Biggleswade, widow. Reference Bw (= Biggleswade Perculiar) 1853/161. The Beds Archives will have a copy of that document.
regards John
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Hi,
Biggleswade, St Andrew, Bapt 22 Jun 1801, Thomas Marsom, Farther William, Mother Elizabeth, Farther occ Woolsorter.
Biggleswade, St Andrew, Bapt 18 May 1803, Elizabeth Marsom, Farther William, Mother Elizabeth, Farther occ Woolsorter. Born 3 May Baptized Privately.
Biggleswade, St Andrew, Burial 10 Feb 1808, John Marsom, Farther William, Mother, Elizabeth.
Biggleswade, St Andrew, Caleb Evans married Ann Marsom 19 Dec 1798.
Regards.
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Robert PHIPPS is Christened 03 October 1813, Caldecote, Cambridgeshire to ROBERT and SARAH Phipps
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Yes John you are right ;) it appears to be Jane Franklin on 1841 Census.
As she appears there she must be the daughter of one of William and Elizabeths children who married a Franklin.
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Trish, I will check out the Phipps/Franklin Dec 1841 Biggleswade marriage to get the fathers' names next time I'm at the Archives.
The NBI gives the burials at Biggleswade St Andrew of William Marsom on 18th June 1841 aged 73 and Elizabeth Marsom on 9th May 1853 aged 85.
It seems that the Ann Marsom who married Caleb Evans is sister of William.
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Thomas 1801 who I cannot find anything about.
From Bedfordshire Strays Index produced by BFHS, there's an entry for Thomas Marson of Biggleswade married to Charlotte Cockerill, spinster otp. on 18 Nov 1822 at Croydon cum Clopton, Cambs. The IGI has that extracted marriage in name of Marsom & hers is Cokerill.
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Excellent John :)
I wish I had some ancestors from the area you could check!
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Hi, I have been making the most of our good weather today, so sorry for the late reply
Thankyou all - It will be interesting to see what you finf out about the Phipps/Franklin families.
Will try and purchase the will of Eliz Marsom. Thomas and Charlotte appear to bap children in London.
Margaret
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Thomas and Charlotte appear to bap children in London.
A William Cockrill Marsom baptised on 17 Sept 1823 is a bit of a give-away. As well as the 6 entries found on the IGI at St Sepulcre, Holborn, City of London between 1823 & 1837; from the London Baptisms via Ancestry, there is also a George Marsom baptised 10 Aug 1834 (born 18 July).
The baptism entries gives their address of Low Cross/St John Street & Thomas is a Whip Maker.
But why 2 Thomases, I cannot find a burial for the first one However there is a burial of John Marsom on 18 Nov 1838 aged 7 at St Sepulcre.
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I have amended my 1841 census posting as I forgot to put the occp of William down.
I look forward to finding out the Phipps Marriage details.
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Thankyou for the extra info. Anything that makes researching easier is okay by me. Pity he went and spoilt it by bap 2 Thomases in 1828, no idea why. The 2nd with sister Jane just 5ths later. One assumes the 1st died and there is a plausible explanation.
Are these late baps do you think or could Jane and Thomas be twins. Thomas and Charlotte must of travelled to London fairly soon after their marriage.
Look forward to hearing more about William and Elizabeth family
Margaret
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From the 25/12/1841 Biggleswade marriage
Robert Phipps, bach, wheelwright, father Robert Phipps, clerk in coal wharf
Jane Franklin, spin, no occupation, father Richard Franklin, gent
Both were of full age, both from Biggleswade
witnesses; Samuel Fowlkes (perhaps) & Sarah Phipps
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From the will of Elizabeth Marsom, widow, late of Bigglewade, died 3 May 1853, signed & dated 29 Aug 1849 & proved 30 May 1853
I give & bequeath unto Jane Phipps, wife of Robert Phipps now residing with me, the sum of £50 ; & unto my brother Richard Mantle in case he is still living at my decease the sum of £50 but if he shall be dead then I give the said £50 to my daughter Mary.
I also give to my nephews John Whiteman & Samuel Whiteman (children of my late sister Ann Whiteman) the sum of £50 each, & unto Jane Whiteman (widow of my late nephew Thomas Whiteman, deceased) the sum of £50 in case she is living and unmarried - but is she is dead or married I give the said £50 to the children of Thomas Whiteman.
I direct the above legacies to be paid within 3 months after my decease from the principal monies to which I am entitled under the settlement made upon or shortly after my marriage to my late husband William Marsom.
I then give & bequest the rest & residue of principal monies & all my effects to my nephew William Whiteman of Biggleswade, victualler & appoint him my sole executor of this will.
Now sort that out - now if her brother is Mantle how could she be Hine ? other than she was a widow when she married William Marsom in 1791 - but it does not say that
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OK what about ....
On 1851 Elizabeth Marsom was aged 84 born Old Warden (b 1767)
Baptism of Elizabeth Mantel at Old Warden on 7 Sept 1766 to Samuel & Elizabeth Mantel, who also baptised a Richard Mantell there on 2 June 1765
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I agree John. There's also a marriage of Ann Mintle or Mantle to Samuel Whiteman at Old Warden in 1794, presumably her sister Ann referred to in the will. I wonder if the 1766 Elizabeth may have died as there's another in 1769.
Is the marriage of William Marsom to Elizabeth Norgin in Biggleswade in 1829 connected? An Elizabeth Norgin married Richard Franklin in Biggleswade in 1809, but this may be a complete red herring!
David
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Brother Richard never got his £50 as a Richard Mantel has a death index in Jul-Sept qtr 1851 Bedford RD vol 6 page 17
On 1851 census he is in the Harpur Green Almshouses Bedford age 85 born Old Warden. He is with daughter Mary A born 1814 Bedford, other daughter ? possiible grand-daughter (daughter of first Mary A) Mary A born 1839 London & son William born 1818 Bedford
Richard age 75 & Mary age 25 are at the same Almshouses on 1841
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OK interesting link..... as I have some Mantels in my tree
Richard Mantel may have married Sarah Woodroffe; & they had son Thomas Mantel 1804 who married Mary Haseldine; she being daughter of John Haseldine (poulterer of St Pauls Bedford) & Mary Partridge born 1781, daughter of my gt-gt-gt-grandfather Thomas Partridge.
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1. Elizabeth Mantle married John Cooper at Bedford St Peter on 25 Apr 1797
2. Elizabeth Cooper widow married William Norgin widower at Biggleswade on 24 July 1810 (per PR transcript)
3. Elizabeth Norgin married William Marson at Biggleswade on 22 Jan 1829
1 and 3 need checking for additional information. I haven't got the NBI at the moment, so can't check for possible burials of John Cooper* and William Norgin
I think that Elizabeth Hine was the first wife, and Elizabeth Mantle the second
David
* see next post
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Elizabeth Norgin, daughter of William & Jane Norgin was baptised at Biggleswade on 11 May 1783. Was she the Elizabeth Norgin who married Richard Franklin in Biggleswade in 1809 (Richard was of Hatfield Herts), and was her putative father William Norgin the William who married Elizabeth Cooper née Mantle in 1810? If so, and if Jane Franklin was the daughter of Richard and Elizabeth (Norgin) Franklin, then Elizabeth Mantle would have been the step grandmother of Jane.
A lot of ifs but it would explain how the Elizabeth Marsom who made the will was connected to Jane (Franklin) Phipps, and why Jane was described as granddaughter in 1851.
Did Jane Norgin, wife of William, die prior to 1810, and if so was her age at burial given?*
David
*Jane Norgin, wife of William Norgin, postboy, was buried at Biggleswade on 23 Apr 1803.
There's also the burial of John Cooper, wheelwright, at Biggleswade on 8 Jan 1809
Of course, even if this speculation can be proved to be correct, it still doesn't help in tracing Elizabeth Hine!
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Jane Franklin / Phipps over the census had varying birth places
1841 not in Beds
1851 Norman Cross, Hunts
1861 Stamford, Lincs
1871 Yaxley, Hunts
1891 Yaxley, Northants
She died aged 76 in June 1888 Biggleswade RD
Robert Phipps died June 1889 age 76 Biggleswade RD
Anyway, these birth locations are within a short distance from each other so on checking the IGI found baptism of Jane Franklin on 17 Oct 1811 at Stamford Lincs, parents Richard Franklin & Elizabeth; which ties in nicely with the Biggelwade marriage on 9 Oct 1809 of Richard to Elizabeth Norgin
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On 1881 census with Robert & Jane Phipps is 16 year old niece Fanny Allen born Brampton, Hunts.
On 1871 census at Brampton is Frances Lydia Allen age 6 with younger sister Sarah Phipps Allen, and parents Charles Stephen Allen born Alconbury Weston & wife Sarah A P Allen born 1844 Biggleswade. Charles Stephen Allen married Sarah Ann Phipps Wilson at St Ives in Dec 1863. Sarah Phipps married Thomas Wilson on 13/8/1842 - I reckon she was the Sarah Phipps who was witness at marriage of Robert Phipps & Jane Franklin.
Now I have Allens of Brampton in my tree - I wonder ?
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Hello,
This is amazing. :) What a turn up. I had seen the marriage of William to Elizabeth Norgin but wasn't sure who the William was.
Has anyone any idea how William Marsom obtained all this money, and what was the settlement. Would it have come from his farther?
Many thanks
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Maybe the settlement on the marriage of Elizabeth Norgin to William Marsom in Jan 1829 was to safeguard her own monies that she had inherited after the death of William Norgin.
..... & it's interesting to find in the 'Bedfordshire Probate Records' an entry for the will of William Norgin of Biggleswade, victualler ref Bw 1827/133, I . That last I in the ref denotes Inventory
That's one for the next visit to the Archives
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Which would explain why none of the Marsom family inherited. I did wonder how a woolsorter could amount so much money.
Look forward to the next installment
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....and/or she may have got something from her father Samuel Mantel, carpenter of Warden - whose will is mentioned in probate index ref 1831/48 - ( I am assuming this was her father )
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..... no this will belongs to Samuel Mantel, carpenter who was buried 13/11/1831 age 56 at Old Warden; who was the son of Samuel Mantel, baptised 28 May 1775 & brother to Elizabeth.
.... & he left everthing including cottages in Shefford to his wife Elizabeth (he married Elizabeth Waldeck on 10 Aug 1798 at Bedford St Mary) & after her decease assign the same to daughter Elizabeth (baptised 6 July 1812 at Old Warden)
Will was signed & dated 17 March 1828 & proved 5 Dec 1831 & its value was sub £450
* update 8/5 ......
Samuel Mantle the father was buried 25 May 1803 at Old Warden & his wife Elizabeth was buried 11 Aug 1808
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Looks like Elizabeth Marsom's 'principle monies' was left to her by previous husband William Norgin, late of Biggleswade, victualler of 'The Coach & Horses' who was buried at Biggleswade on14 Dec 1827 aged 72. His will signed & dated 17 Jan 1826 & proved 7 Dec 1828 had value just less than £1000 & sets out ....
I give & bequeath to my son Daniel Norgin & to my daughters Mary the wife of John Folks, butcher of Biggleswade, Elizabeth the wife of Richard Franklin, Ostler of Biggleswade and Ann the wife of William Barker of Stamford in county of Lincoln - the sum of £100 apiece to be paid to them within 3 months of my decease & in the case of the death of any of my said children during my life before these legacies become payable, I direct the legacies to go to the children of him, her, them.
All the rest, residue & remainder of my personal effects whatsoever & wheresoever I give & bequeath to my dear wife Elizabeth Norgin & I appoint her my sole executrix of this will.
cheers John
So is this Mary, married to John Folks the daughter Mary in Elizabeth Marsom's will.
Biggleswade marriage - 7 Nov 1803 John Fowkes of Baldock Herts to Mary Norgin.
Also note that a Samuel Fowlkes is a witness to marriage of Robert Phipps & Jane Franklin in 1841.
Is this Samuel son of John & Mary ?
Mary Norgan, daughter of William & Jane baptised Biggleswade 12 Jan 1781
On 1851 census living in Sun Street, Biggleswade is Mary FAWLKES, widow age 70 born 1781 Biggleswage living 'on the parish'. I havent found her on 1841
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With the will was an Inventory regarding the administration of 'The Coach & Horses' dated 28 Dec 1827 with total values as so ....
Cash in the house 8 . 10 . 0
Cash at Interest 840 . 0 . 0
Household goods & furniture 61 . 9 . 0
Wearing Apparal 2 . 0 . 0
Plate, Linen & China 10 . 14 . 0
Stock in Trade 50 . 7 . 0
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Total 973 . 0 . 0
In the book 'Thirsty Old Town' - Story of Biggleswade Pubs by Ken Page
The Coach & Horses in Shortmead Street licencees
1822 - 1828 William Norgan
1828 - Elizabeth Norgan
1830 - 1854 William Whiteman (Elizabeth Marsom's nephew who inherited the residue from her will)
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From the Biggleswade banns dated 1 Feb 1778 William Norgan to Jane Gardiner of Weston Herts
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From Biggleswade marriage on 22 Jan 1829 by licence, William Marsom, widower to Elizabeth Norgin, widow. Witnesses James Monk & Martha Monk
There is no additional info on the 1797 Bedford St Peters marriage of John Cooper to Elizabeth Mantle
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Most likely burial of Elizabeth Marsom, ne Hine, first wife of William.
Biggleswade 18 Sept 1825 aged 58 Elizabeth MASHAM
This MASHAM variation is used before for Biggleswade baptisms of William & Elizabeth's children
Samuel Masham privately on 12 Sept 1793 born 10/9/1793
John Masham on 27 Jun 1792 born 26/6/1792 - & he was buried 10/2/1808
MARSHAM/MASSOM/MASSOME variations were used on baptisms at Potton of children of Samuel Marsom & Mary Butler whose marriage at Bedford St Paul on 31/8/1767 has him named Massum or Mashum, while Marsom was derived from personal signature; & it states he was from Potton.
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Hello,
For some reason I don't seem to be getting any notification of replies.
John - What can I say but a big thankyou for going the extra mile in providing all this information on the Marsom, Norgan, Phipps families etc. Not only have you helped me but also others who are researching the Marsoms. :)
Just one last question. Why do you think William and Elizabeth baptised their children privately? I assume it would just have been family and friends as opposed to the whole congregation.
Margaret
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Samuel was baptised, privately, only two days after his birth. It's possible that he wasn't expected to survive so was baptised quickly at home, possibly even by the midwife.
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