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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: tropicalj on Friday 16 April 10 02:32 BST (UK)
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Hello all
I just received the death certificate for Henry David Howes Edsall who died in Western Australia in 1909 , place of birth is listed as Wales.
Unfortunately no parents names are shown.....but his marriage details and his childrens details are all present and correct.
He married in South Australia in 1878 and had his father as Henry north Edsall. Henry N had married his seconded wife Sarah Watts in 1847 in South Australia and no children are found born to this couple.
When one of our RCERS went to the Perth cemetery where he is buried she obtained the burial details from the cemetery which stated he was born in Wales. As two of his children were born in NSW I got one of their birth certificates and it stated born in Wales.
Henry North Edsall's (died in 1878) will left his monies to his wife and twenty pounds to his Daughter Marion Agnes Shoebridge but the son was not mentioned at all, which is odd to me. The will was written 13/4/1858
I cannot find a birth in Wales that remotely comes close.
My assumption is he was an adopted son???
Your thoughts and help would be appreciated.
thanks Jenn
PS I do have all the relevant BDM information
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Hello Edsall is an unusual name.
1903 Electoral Rolls Fremantle Sub District Beaconsfield
736 Henry David Edsall South terrace Fremantle Comercial Travellor
737 William North Edsall South Terrace Ironomger
738 Arthur Robert Edsall South terrace Grocer
1906 Fremantle
Same three and same address
Pam
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Thanks for that yes I do have that bit of information Henry is listed with two of his sons.
thanks Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Just a couple of idle thoughts.
Does the date of death of HENRY DAVID HOWES EDSALL give him a birthdate falling after the marriage of his father HENRY NORTH to the first wife?
Do the given names of DAVID & HOWES crop up anywhere else in the family?
We do know so well don't we that people often truly believe they were born one place and it was in fact another.
I do hope he can be tracked ;D
Sue
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No Sue his first wife Mary Ann Brindle died before he and his daughter Marion/ Mary Ann Edsall went to Tasmania 1836C.
Yes it is true about birthplace being confused in peoples minds.
thanks Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
On a submitted tree (80 names, member activity within last six months), there's a Henry David Howers EDSALL, born 1855 South Australia, marriage 7 August 1876 to Eliza Jane PINCOMBE at Residence of H N Edsall, Kent Town, South Australia, Australia and his death 28 Jan 1909 at Perth WA. One child noted, Edward John Edsall born 2 Dec 1886, Adelaide.
That tree owner has Henry North EDSALL for the father, with birth place of Salisbury in 1829.
1925 Electoral Roll Edward John EDSALL a clerk, at 41 Union St Subiaco ;)
Hope that helps, there's eight mentions for surname Edsall on that tree
Cheers, JM ...
"idle thoughts" prompt, Ta Sue ;) ;) several of my NSW born 19thC forebears, when I ordered their 20th C NSW death transcripts show born Wales, but after re-contacting agent these were amended to read "N S Wales" ;) .. Transcript agents needed to have Reg Gen re digi their records ;D .. would have liked to be fly on the wall at that staff training session
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That tree owner has Henry North EDSALL for the father, with birth place of Salisbury in 1829.
Yes I have seen that particular tree and it is unfounded
Henry North Edsall was born 1802 in Breage Cornwall.
Henry David Howes ( Howers) Edsall did marry Eliza Jane Pincombe.
I do have all this information to hand but am really puzzled as to where and when and the circumstances of his birth
thanks Jenn
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I'll keep looking then ;)
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thanks for you input anyway
incidently that particular tree has Henry North Edsall's brother Samuel Mullins Edsall as his father !!!!!!! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Jenn
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And I think I've spotted the 1829 born Salisbury chap still in UK in 1881 and 1891 ;)
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And I think I've spotted the 1829 born Salisbury chap still in UK in 1881 and 1891 ;)
precisely ...... I guess thats why we allways warn people about trees unless they have documentation attached we have to treat them with mistrust perhaps
Jenn
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Interesting that bit of info about the will and nothing being mentioned about the son.
Was there only 2 children from the 1st marriage Jenn?
Troods
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Yes Troods Hery North and his wife Mary Ann
had two children in England Henry 1825c and Marion agnes 1826c
The wife and son appear to have died in England I cannot verify that but have not found them on the 1841 census but Henry North Edsall is in Tasmania for the 1841 census.
Jenn
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Mmmm confusing alright I see what u mean.
Have I got this right lol
Henry David Howes Edsall who died in 1909 was supposedly born Wales approx 1854.
His father was a Henry North Edsall who was married twice.
1st Mary Ann Brindle - 2 children
2nd Sarah Watts 1847 - no children
Ok I think I may have something wrong here Jenn???????
Was there 2 Henry North Edsall's father & son !!!!!
Troods
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No Troods
not too my knowledge only the one Henry North Edsall
Jenn
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Who was Henry David Howes Edsall's mother?
Father -Henry North Edsall
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I have no idea at all,
He just appears out of nowhere
Henry David Howers EDSALL aged 21 married 7 August 1876 to Eliza Jane PINCOMBE at Residence of H N Edsall, Kent Town, South Australia, Australia father listed as Henry North Edsall.
As far as I can find Henry North Edsall did not pop back to England and father a son and then come home to South Australia again
that is not impossible though is it ;)
Jenn
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Hi there,
Could there be several families in Tas in 1840's with surname Edsall
Not sure, if this helps find Henry's origins but at Tas Archives Office's online index arrivals and departures for Edsall,
Arriving on Bardaster on 10 Dec 1837, there's Brook, Edward, Eliza, Hellen, Mary and Samuel
Two departures for surname Edsall
On Raven, from Launceston 6 Sept 1849 to Port Phillip (Melbourne) Mrs Edsall ex Bardaster 2 children born in the Colonies, each noted as child of Mrs ; Brook born in the Colonies
On Lady Bird, from Launceston 28 Feb 1854, Mr Edsall, having arrived in Tas on Lady Bird ::)
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes (Tas Archives accepts submitted entries ;)
Cheers, JM
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http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1202916
Henry North Edsall an adult in 1860 in Sth Aust ;) in several Sth Aust papers ;)
fingers crossed for you Jenn ;) as I too cannot find Henry North Edsall popping back to England and then back to OZ with a child born c 1855 both arriving back by 1860 ;)
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Crikeys if only we could find out who his mother was!!!!!
Henry David Howers Edsall married Eliza Jane Pincombe in Aug 1878 SA
His father Henry North Edsall died 1878 SA omitting him from his will the only child mentioned was a Marion/Mary - his daughter.
So Henry North Edsall fathered a child supposedly (Henry DH Edsall circa 1854 - with child being born in Wales). Wow
Its indeed a mystery Jenn
Troods
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Jenn ;)
My confused :-[ thoughts at the moment
This is as difficult as hunting out my John and Mary Smith ... ;), Agree with Troods "mystery"
Was there any difference in the denominations HDHE's marriage and his Dad's funeral perhaps if so, then that may be why HDHE was not mentioned in HNE's will.
If HNE on the Lady Bird in Feb 1854, then there's not much calendar left for HDHE's birth in Wales :-\
JM
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Hi there,
Could there be several families in Tas in 1840's with surname Edsall
Not sure, if this helps find Henry's origins but at Tas Archives Office's online index arrivals and departures for Edsall,
Arriving on Bardaster on 10 Dec 1837, there's Brook, Edward, Eliza, Hellen, Mary and Samuel
Two departures for surname Edsall
On Raven, from Launceston 6 Sept 1849 to Port Phillip (Melbourne) Mrs Edsall ex Bardaster 2 children born in the Colonies, each noted as child of Mrs ; Brook born in the Colonies
On Lady Bird, from Launceston 28 Feb 1854, Mr Edsall, having arrived in Tas on Lady Bird ::)
http://www.archives.tas.gov.au/nameindexes (Tas Archives accepts submitted entries ;)
Cheers, JM
Yes JM have got all this information
but do appreciate your looking
thanks Jenn
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Crikeys if only we could find out who his mother was!!!!!
Henry David Howers Edsall married Eliza Jane Pincombe in Aug 1878 SA
His father Henry North Edsall died 1878 SA omitting him from his will the only child mentioned was a Marion/Mary - his daughter.
So Henry North Edsall fathered a child supposedly (Henry DH Edsall circa 1854 - with child being born in Wales). Wow
Its indeed a mystery Jenn
Troods
There in lies the mystery
did he father a child or did he adopt a child?
Thanks Jenn
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Mind's a bit fuzzy today...and I may not have absorbed all the facts correctly, however Jenn have you considered that he could be Marion's child and thought Henry Snr was his dad and therefore Henry 'the son' would think he was born Wales when he may have been anywhere. Just to add a little confusion ::)
Summed up well by Sue :)
We do know so well don't we that people often truly believe they were born one place and it was in fact another.
Sue
Cheers ;D
Cando
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Hello there Cando
This is a possibility I have thought of also.
Marion Agnes Edsall married Alfred George Shoebridge 1/1/1855 both were 24 years old.
Could she have had a child before the marriage.
There is no birth registration for Henry David Howers/Howes Edsall showing in any state of Australia .
Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Sorry to harp on, but are you able to answer this
Do the given names of DAVID & HOWES crop up anywhere else in the family? SUE
Often as we know, a little secret can lie buried in an odd or not-seen-before given name.
Sue
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Hi Jenn,
Sorry to harp on, but are you able to answer this
Do the given names of DAVID & HOWES crop up anywhere else in the family? SUE
Often as we know, a little secret can lie buried in an odd or not-seen-before given name.
Sue
Sorry Sue not to have answered you but no obvious connection no Howes//Howers too my limited knowledge
thanks Jenn
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hi Jenn,
I can see mr, mrs Edsall and child travelling from Adelaide to London in 1866 on the "City of Adelaide" . I can't find any other details on the Ships website but I presume its HN Edsall.
So there must be an arrival back to Adelaide I haven't found that though, it may have other information.
Good Luck
Romaly
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hi Jenn,
I can see mr, mrs Edsall and child travelling from Adelaide to London in 1866 on the "City of Adelaide" . I can't find any other details on the Ships website but I presume its HN Edsall.
So there must be an arrival back to Adelaide I haven't found that though, it may have other information.
Good Luck
Romaly
Hi there Romaly
Can you please tell me where you have found this information
thanks Jenn
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hi Jenn
The website is called http:/cityofadelaide.org.au
sorry not sure how to add a link, Googling will find it though
Romaly
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thanks for that Romaly
Very Interesting, could well be HN going to England for a visit.
I have found him going back and forth to Melbourne no doubt to conduct business and see his two brothers families in Melbourne.
As you know the Edsall family had a market garden and seed business on Brighton, and HN also conducted a similar business in Adelaide.
Still no further to finding out the parentage of HDH EDsall though.
thanks Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Some more thoughts
Do you have the names of the parents of those two likely brothers at Brighton ;) from any certificates
Could the parents of those two likely brothers ... well could either of the death certs of those parents have HDHE's name included as a descendant (even if spelling or order of Christian names is not quite right)...
Could Sarah Watts have been previously married and/or have siblings who had a son who was raised by Sarah and Henry North Edsall (thus a reason for not nominating HDHE in the will, and also a reason for birth registration not coming to light under EDSALL) ?
Cheers, JM
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I feel confident in saying that HDHE does not tie into the Edsall family in Victoria other that the fact that two HNEs brothers Samuel Mullins Edsall and Charles Stokes Edsall families were in Victoria. I have a lot of information on this side of things so do not need anything further there thanks.
Sarah Watts was a single woman who came to Australia wife her sister and the sister married James Nicholson Smith and they had a large family in Adelaide and many many descendants.
The rest of her siblings all staed in England. Ihave full details on these two ladies.
I have trolled the SA births for that time and nothing comes to light.
Thanks JEnn
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Jenn,
Do you know who the parents of Henry North EDSALL were?
I have come across a parish baptism that is a very good match for him if the parents match then I'd say it's his :)
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Thanks Merlin,
Yes I do have HN Edsall's parents etc, it is the parentage of Henry David Howers/Howes Edsall that I cannot find or validate a birth for
kindthoughts Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
That's fine, I knew you were looking for HDHE's birth :)
I was just searching for him & came across Henry North's baptism records from a church & wondered if you had them or not 8)
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Hi Jenn,
That's fine, I knew you were looking for HDHE's birth :)
I was just searching for him & came across Henry North's baptism records from a church & wondered if you had them or not 8)
Understood Merlin, yes I do have those records thanks for looking
Jenn
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I hesitate to put this up as it looks likely to be a giant red herring with only the most tenuous possiblity and I can find no way of taking it any further anyway.
On Free BMD the only male I can find born in Wales, with any kind of names which have anything to do with your chap and at the appropriate time is:
Dec qr 1855
David HOWES, reg Merthyr Tydfil, Vol 11a, page 285
Looking for this family on the census I can only see them in 1861 at 24 Lamb Lane, Merthyr Tydfil
Mary Ann Howes 34 Mar? Flannel dealer b Newport (there is a mark across the Mar column so may be Unm)
William Howes 8 b Carmarthen
David Howes 6 b Merthyr
Mary Watkins 14 servant b Dowlais
Looking as far as 1885 on FreeBMD I cannot find deaths for any of them in S Wales nor a remarriage for the mother - nor even a marriage in the first place. Obviously there are many reasons which mean that they are not able to be found in later censuses. The only other HOWES I could see a mention of on FreeBMD is the death in 1860 of a John Harvey HOWES reg Swansea.
I told you it was very unlikely but I wondered if this Welsh chap emigrated and then was adopted by HNE and took the Henry and EDSALL names, keeping his own as well????????? 8) 8) 8)
Is shipping into SA available on line?
Judith (ducking for cover with this fantastical tale!)
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No Jud do not duck for cover as I have done this very same thing and found this family, but I have a feeling I did find them again in a later census perhaps a misspelling on the name
Will look at it though to see what is what,
Incidently Henry DH named his children
Lily May
William North
Arthur Robert
Florence Emily
Edward John
Ruby Alice
now his "sister" Maron Agness Edsall who married Arthur James inserting correct names ALfred George Shoebridge
named her children
Alfred North
StellaWatts
Arthur James
Florence Agnes
Albert
so the North was continued down but I do not know where the North came from HNE mothers name was Maria Stokes, but his bother Charles got Stokes as a middle name.
Also Sarah Edsall nee Watts the second Mrs HNE ;) sister Ann/Annie Smith names one of her sons North Edsall Randall Smith (the Randall being the Watt's sister mothers maiden name)
oh these family names they do help us establish links that is for sure.
thanks for your input Jenn ;D
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fingers crossed
Sth Australian shipping online
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/BoundForSouthAustralia.htm
where I read "The SOUTH AUSTRALIAN REGISTER newspaper sent a special reporter to each ship arriving in South Australia, to list the passengers on board that ship from the PASSENGER LIST held by the Captain. The reporter's list was published in the next publication of the newspaper.
We understand that microfilms of the SOUTH AUSTRALIAN REGISTER Newspapers are held in State Libraries across Australia. "
also http://www.theshipslist.com/ships/australia/SAassistedindex.htm where there's links to other Sth Aust websites
Cheers, JM
Is shipping into SA available on line? Judith (ducking for cover with this fantastical tale!)
JM adds Tis a WONDERFUL FANTASTICAL TALE and JENN, you have helped so many RChatters, its our turn to try to help you ;)
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Thanks JM for your kind words,
I am sorry to sound like a broken record, I have those links in my favourites. In fact thats where I got my shipping record for Pop Shoebridge's father's arrival into SA and Marion Agnes Edsall's arrival from Tasmania into SA,
BUT I do appreciate all your efforts in helping me here
WE'RE BOUND FOR SOUTH AUSTRALIA! presented by DIANE CUMMINGS
Isn't that a wonderfull link, one I use that regulary unfortunatly it is up to 1851 at this stage on that link.
Charles Stokes Edsall was an immigration agent and account in Cornwall and was "responsible" for any number of emmigrants who came to Australia.
Could he have sent a young Welsh lad out to his brother Henry in SA ?
Jenn
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My fingers crossed for finding an RChatter who has access to the newspaper "The South Australian Register" or better still for the National Library of Australia to include that paper in their digitising project ;) but in the meanwhile :
You don't sound like a broken record to me Jenn, and you have helped so many RChatters :)
Twas Judith was asking for the Sth Australian shipping, and so perhaps between several of us we can each spend some spare minutes looking through different years on the ship's list site its up to 1860 ;) especially if Jenn knows any ships names that Charles Stokes Edsall had emigrants board. ;) ;) We just need to co-ordinate and share the task.
Which ones would you like me to start with as I'm :-\ . I've spare minutes this afternoon and early evening, and willing to help.
Cheers, JM
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I have HNE death certificate and the information was Henry D H Edsall , son
died 29/8/1879
His Death Notice
said
Edsall Henry North
on the 28th August at his residence Chapel Street, Norwood, aged 78 years a colonist of 36 years. "his end was peace"
Jenn
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Re Henry North E
I don't know much about Sth Aust early settlements etc, but did HNE apply for grant/purchase land etc ? I ask this because on NSW records for my forebears, I have found applications for grants of land etc and included in these applications, the applicant had to state the name of the ship that they arrived in the colony, of course that helped me with my g g g grandfather John Brown (1788-1865) who I had sorted long before joining RChat !
Cheers, JM
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I have an awfull lot of information for HNE from the Norwood council, I contacted them and they sent me all they had on him cause he subdivided his land etc they filled me in on where he lived over the period of time but had no record of his arrival into the colony.
quoting from the part letter for interest sake
"The Edsall family name is perpetuated through the subdivion created by HNE in south west Norwood which includes its central feature Edsall Street running between Elizabeth Street and Sydenham Road"
The letter also mentions his son Henry Edsall Junior as an irononger... but the very nice lady at the council could find no birth or any record prior to the marriage of HDHE to Eliza Pincombe for HDHE
I appreciate your help JM but my objective is find the birth details for Henry David Howes/Howers Edsall.
thanks Jenn
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Thanks for the links JM but, as Jenn says, the dates aren't much use in this case. Don't know why SA has to be so pernickety with their records ::) I have no-one at all from SA so I don't have much experience with SA and tend to steer clear of helping anyone looking for SA info.
Quite posssible, Jenn that the two lads from S Wales (or even one of them) went adventuring - or not. ???
Cheers, Judith
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Just in case you may need these - Immigrant records in South Australia.....
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=83&c=4997
However we still haven't been able to help Jenn.
Cheers
Cando
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Some thoughts
HNE married twice, second wife was Sarah Watts, married 1847, no known children of that marriage.
HDHE was born abt 1855, his father was HNE, they were both from Wales. We are trying to find HDHE's birth details.
HNE's "possible" sister's children had names including North and Watts
HNE's sister in law's children had names including Edsall and North.
When ? before or after HNE married Sarah Watts ...
if before, then perhaps there's a link not yet explored ...
HNE had at least one son, Henry E junior who was an ironmonger
Henry Edsall, Junior, the ironmonger was he Henry David Howes Edsall?
a) HNE first arrived in abt 1843, so if we find that arrival, and check for his then family does it include a son Henry, if so then that one may be the ironmonger and thus a different lad from the one born 1855 ?
b) HDHE born abt 1855 in Wales ... where was he in 1861 a possible has been found but under Howes? Presume not HDHE, so then look for arrival to Sth Aust pre 1861 ie on the ships list from 1855 to 1860 ;) Perhaps under different spelling or under one of his middle names used as his surname ... that search if he is NOT found would then tend to support that 1861 Welsh census find ...
Just some thoughts...
Cheers, JM
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his father was HNE, they were both from Wales.
no that is not the case, only HDHEwas alledgley born in Wales, this is from a birth registration of one of his children in NSW and his death ceritifcate. HNE was born in Breage, in Cornwall 1802c
HNE's sister in law's children had names including Edsall and North.
When ? before or after HNE married Sarah Watts ...
if before, then perhaps there's a link not yet explored ...
not sure of what you are thinking here but his sister married several years before 1855c the year of HDHE birth....
Henry Edsall, Junior, the ironmonger was he Henry David Howes Edsall? Yes
a) HNE first arrived in abt 1843, so if we find that arrival, and check for his then family does it include a son Henry, if so then that one may be the ironmonger and thus a different lad from the one born 1855 ?
Surely IF there was a son in 1843 he would not be the son born in 1855 and if there was a son who arrived with him what happened to him then????
Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
I apologise for mistakenly typing that both HNE and HNE’s father were from Wales. As I have both Cornish and Welsh forebears, I apologise twice over for that mistooken.
I apologise for offering the suggestion that HNE’s sister in law may be related to HNE other than through his marriage to Sarah Watts. I was suggesting that as his sister in law had a child named Edsall North that perhaps if that child was born before Sarah Watts 1847 marriage then perhaps that avenue has not yet been explored in respect of HDHE’s origins. As either half-sibling for any of Ann Smith’s children,or perhaps extending to cousins. To me, Edsall is not a well known name, either as a surname or middle name.
I apologise for not realising that Henry Edsall junior the ironmonger was also Henry David Howes Edsall. I thought HDHE was a gardener/seed merchant or the like... to me, that’s a very different occupation from ironmonger, and my thoughts were that perhaps the ironmonger was a son from the first marriage, while HDHE was a son, perhaps adopted, from the second marriage. I was not confusing a possible birth from 1843 or earlier with a birth circa 1855, so I apologise again if my post was confusing.
My Best Wishes and Kind Thoughts, remembering your opening post includes:
My assumption is he was an adopted son???
Your thoughts and help would be appreciated.
Cheers, JM
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JM.no need to apologise so much you are only trying to help and I do appreciate it
Edsall is not a common name in Australia and the Edsall seem to be mostly related to each other.
I do not explain myself too well.... that is my fault and not yours
I and no doubt you have found that children who are down as children of a couple we find that couple is realy the grandparents.
My assumption still is that he was an adopted son unless somehow I can find proof of his birth somewhere
Jenn
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This has been a fascinating thread - been following it with great interest and indeed maybe the only way of thinking would be adoption.
This is a problem that I am having with an ancestor of mine - eventually you find that u have no more avenues to source and that u can only make assumptions.
The Edsall name might be a key perhaps - like u said Jenn its unusual. HDHE must have thought/known he was born in Wales to mention it on his marriage & to be recorded on one of his childrens' birth certs and then an informant etc records it on his death cert.
Just throwing something at u birth - Wales? / New South Wales? Have we eliminated NSW as a place of birth?
Sorry if that previous question has been covered - its early here & am in desperate need of more coffee lol.
Troods
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Hi there Troods
Just to point out his place of birth is not on his marriage certificate, SA had very limited information on their marriage certificates over that period of time, more's the pity cause we would have had his parents names, had he say married in Qld, or NSW, or Vic.
I have pursued the Wales as New South Wales but found nothing to help out
thanks for taking an interest
Jenn
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Re NSW BDM online Birth records ;)
The early ones, ie those referenced with the letter "V" are only baptismal records. Although civil registration commenced in 1856, even the NSWBDM online site recognises that it was not until 1879 that they received regular quarterly returns for BDM events from Clergy. So for births before 1879, even those from 1850's, there's reasons to suspect that there's many gaps in the NSW records. The C of E handed their bdm registry to NSW Reg Gen in 1879, that register covered 1825-1855... :'(
From my own tree, my NSW born 19th Century forebears include bdm certificates for most, but despite much searching for decades by various family members (SAG members etc), birth/baptismal records have not been found for several, including two lasses born in Sydney in the 1850's, raised as Methodists. The NSW marriage certs, death certs and the many births of and early deaths of their children all show these two were born in "Sydney N. S. Wales", and their older and younger siblings birth/baptismal records are all found indexed online at NSW BDM. Also, the YEAR noted as part of NSW BDM reference is the YEAR that NSW BDM actually entered the info on THEIR records, ie not necessarily the year the event actually occurred. Hence from my own tree, a birth in the Wentworth area (Lower Darling River) that occurred in 1884, was not entered by the Sydney based Reg Gen's office until 1907, so it is indexed with 1907 as its indicated year, and did not come online until 2008 :(
The NSW State Library's film collections in the family history section are extensive and I find them to be more reliable than the NSW BDM online index, especially for the "Early Church Records".
So it is possible that if HDHE was born in NSW, that the registration of his birth or his baptism was simply not forwarded to the NSW BDM Reg General, or that the Reg General did not process that quarter's return, from the civil servants in the 1850's or if baptised C of E from the registers sent to them in 1879. The 1850's rural registrars were usually part-timers, ie usually a ranked Police officer or Magistrate or Sherrif. And many of them quit and went off with gold fever running through their minds. Some quarterly returns would have been lost in transit as they were sent from rural areas via the Royal Mail carried by Cobb and Co etc and ranksacked by Bushrangers who held up the escorted coaches on their way to Sydney.
The 1850's also saw the separation of Victoria and Queensland from the Colony of NSW, so perhaps HDHE's birth/baptism registration (if in N S Wales ;) ) may be found only in a parish record anywhere on the east coast !
I'm not familar with Welsh Records, but Jenn, have you recently tried posting a look up request on the RChat board for Wales ;)
Cheers, JM
.
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Just in case you may need these - Immigrant records in South Australia.....
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=83&c=4997
However we still haven't been able to help Jenn.
Cheers
Cando
I have sent of an enquiry to the SLSA, to see if they might have any further details of Mr and Mrs Edsall and Child on the City of Adelaide.
I have found their ask a librarian service to be very good in the past
thanks Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
No help with this boy I am afraid. I thought I may have been onto something when I believed I located his parents travelling to London at about the time of his birth (although listed as EASALL) but alas they return without a child. Unfortunately there are only the newspaper accounts of these arrivals and departures.
EASALL Mr and Mrs departed Adelaide for London 23 Feb 1854 aboard the IRIS. (Register)
EDSALL Henry and Wife arrived Adelaide from London 4 Jan 1856 aboard the WALVISCH Departed London 15 Oct (Register and Adelaide Times) All other passengers listed the no. of children.
EDSALL Mr, Mrs and Child departed Adelaide for London via Cape of Good Hope 5 Nov 1866 aboard The CITY OF ADELAIDE (Register) Also listed in Advertiser as Mr, Mrs and Son.
EDSALL Mr, Mrs and Master arrived Adelaide 27 Oct 1868 from London aboard the SOUTH AUSTRALIAN (Register) The passenger signed a letter of thanks to David BRUCE Esq, Commander of the Ship. These names included Henry EDSALL and Sarah EDSALL.
To be listed as Master I would expect him to be not much older than 13 which fits with the known boy.
Cheers Kris :)
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I also checked for Obits but alas no children mentioned. :'(
Advertiser 11 Aug 1891
EDSALL - On the 10th Aug at the residence of her niece Mrs E THORPE, Parkside, Sarah, relic of the late Henry EDSALL, late of King William St, Kent Town. In her 75th year
Register 29 Aug 1879
EDSALL On the 28 Aug at his residence, Chapel St. Norwood, Henry North EDSALL aged 78 years. A Colonist of 36 years. His end was peace.
Cheers Kris :)
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Hello there Kris
What a wonderfull lot of information you have given me :D He did like to travel a bit didn't he.
Thanks for taking the time involved to get these records.
Henry North Edsall will was dated the 14th April, 1858 , which I obtained from South Australia, I wonder why he never changed it to include his "sons". One could imagine how HDH must have felt after the reading of the will not to get anything. Perhaps when Sarah died he might have, but there was no record of a will for her which did surprise me.
I do also have full details of her niece Mrs E Thorpe. ;)
Ah think it is going to have to be relegated perhaps to the brick wall basket.
nil desperandum
Jenn
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A further Question if I may, are there any records in the UK for incoming passenger for this particular time frame 1850 to 1866?
thanks Jenn
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Hi Jenn,
Sadly there are very few surviving records for British citizens arriving in the UK during this period.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=106&j=1#1
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi all I was reading this thread again.
I still have not found where Henry D H Edsall was born.
With DNA now an opportunity to find relatives, I have done mine a while ago and still have not had a match to this man.
I have had quite a lot of matches with a lot of my forebears and have been able to fill in a couple of blanks for 2 people who didn't know their father or mother, so that's worthwhile opportunity
Perhaps in time this might happen
Thanks Jenn
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Hello there Cando
This is a possibility I have thought of also.
Marion Agnes Edsall married Alfred George Shoebridge 1/1/1855 both were 24 years old.
Could she have had a child before the marriage.
There is no birth registration for Henry David Howers/Howes Edsall showing in any state of Australia .
Jenn
Hi Jenn,
I don't know if you have seen this record but I will put it up anyway ;D
Marion had 6 weeks in The Adelaide Hospital and the following information was given.
Agnes Marion EDSALL
Marital Status- Single
Age- 24
Record Type- Admission
Birth Year- abt 1829
Birth Place -Maidstone
Occupation-Servant
Admission Date-9 Mar. 1853
Admission Place Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
Discharge Date- 15 Apr. 1853
Ship-Jane & Emma
The nature of illness was epilepsy.
Her admission was by authority of the Destitute Board.
Sue
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Hi sue
Yes I have seen it she suffered from Epilepsy theought her life and died in her 40s
sadly her father Henry North Edsall and her step mother weren’t very nice to her, article in Troce where they tried to have her committed.
She came across from Tasmania to Adelaide after her father left her there when he went to Adelaide
Thanks Je n
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In that case would they really have supported her in the case of an illegitimate pregnancy being hypothetically Henry David?
Probably not. So unlikely she is the mother.
Sue
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I have never really thought she would have been his mother . There is no record of a birth to her unmarried. When her father died, quite wealthy he left her a whole 20 pounds
She married Alfred Shoebridge 1.1.1855 and had their first child may 1856
But thanks Sue
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I agree.
I only mention it because it was a line of thought earlier in the thread.
Sue
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Hi Jenn,
No help with this boy I am afraid. I thought I may have been onto something when I believed I located his parents travelling to London at about the time of his birth (although listed as EASALL) but alas they return without a child. Unfortunately there are only the newspaper accounts of these arrivals and departures.
EASALL Mr and Mrs departed Adelaide for London 23 Feb 1854 aboard the IRIS. (Register)
EDSALL Henry and Wife arrived Adelaide from London 4 Jan 1856 aboard the WALVISCH Departed London 15 Oct (Register and Adelaide Times) All other passengers listed the no. of children.
EDSALL Mr, Mrs and Child departed Adelaide for London via Cape of Good Hope 5 Nov 1866 aboard The CITY OF ADELAIDE (Register) Also listed in Advertiser as Mr, Mrs and Son.
EDSALL Mr, Mrs and Master arrived Adelaide 27 Oct 1868 from London aboard the SOUTH AUSTRALIAN (Register) The passenger signed a letter of thanks to David BRUCE Esq, Commander of the Ship. These names included Henry EDSALL and Sarah EDSALL.
To be listed as Master I would expect him to be not much older than 13 which fits with the known boy.
Cheers Kris :)
Is it possible the child was on the ship WALVISCH in 1856 when they returned to Adelaide?
But under a different name ?
With a relative.....?
Wish there was a full manifest to browse.
Sue
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Ancestry has several records for (Henry) David under South Australia, Australia, Destitute Asylum Ledgers and Admissions to Industrial and Reformatory Schools, 1849-1913.
Davy HOWELS
The admission 22 April 1857 aged 2 states mother in asylum, recently confined. Father in the country, recent arrival. Placed with father Mr HOWERS. A later addition states mother dead, father deserted him. Returned 25 Aug 1858.
David HOWEL or HOWERS
13 Jun 1859, father deserted mother dead. Placed with Mr EDSALL, Parade, Norwood.
Comment in 1861 - Well clad and apparently in good health, Mr Edsall is bringing him up as his own.
Comment in 1864 - The boy being adopted by Mr Edsall and treated in every way as his own, it is not necessary furthur to trouble him with calls. 27.9.67 Mrs Edsall gone to England.
Debra :)
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Davy HOWELS
The admission 22 April 1857 aged 2 states mother in asylum, recently confined.
Possible birth?
Name Mary HOWELL
Birth Date 19 Apr 1857
Birth Place Adelaide
Father William HOWELL
Mother Margaret
Page number 17
Volume Number 11
Also related? Deaths of Mrs HOWELL and Mary HOWELL in May 1857.
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159516793/howell
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/159516791/mary-howell
Debra :)
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Bingo, I think.
William, Margaret and David HOWELLS arrived from Glamorgan on the Monsoon 17 March 1857.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS8Y-X36X-S
Debra :)
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Oh wow I am moved to tears here. After all this time.
What a lovely bit of Sleuthing Debra
To learn he was indeed adopted by Henry Edsall who would have been in
his 50s. Can but hope he was treated well. He died early 1900s in Perth. His death certificate said born in Wales but no parents listed.
I am very happy to find where he came from. I know now I won't get any DNA matches to his family.
Thanks most kindly Jenn
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Oh wow! - Debra to the rescue, great find.
So lovely to see a long-time mystery solved.
Hi Jen - good to "see' you again!
Judith
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That is terrific work from Debra and after all these years a wonderful outcome for Jenn.
It is very strange that Henry North EDSALL wrote his will when the adopted boy was already in his care and excluded him from any benefit.
This in spite of the trips to England they took him on and the reports of the good care he was receiving.
We do not know how long the boy stayed with the EDSALLs after the last shipping sighting and no mention of him in Sarah's death notice in 1891.
A strange one, but at least, now, Jenn, you know his origins.
Sue
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Yes Sue it sure was so good.
He was married from the home HN Edsall when he was approx 22.
So we could assume he stayed with them till he married. South Australian death notice from that era doesn't seem to mention much in the way of family.
Regards Jenn
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Thats a fabulous result after all this time.
This is part of my husbands family tree too.
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Oh true, who do descend from please?
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CVEdsall nephew of HNEdsall arrived Melb around 1851, think we spoke on the phone many years back, lyndall
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Yes we did, I had forgotten
I am trying to attach some dna results
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And the dna link to CVE