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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: rozmarsh on Friday 09 April 10 08:55 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am trying to track down where Henry Hunter orginally came from. I have him on the 1851 census with wife Elizabeth, children Eliza, Henry, Mary, Sarah and Josiah . He apears to have been born in 1792 in Birmingham, Warwicks, but he seems to have two wifes one Elizabeth Brookes and another Elizabeth Shaw?? I found two Henry's born in 1839, his son, one was a hair dresser so I know he is not the one. I was always told my great grandfather came from Scotland but I cannot find a direct line back there.
My grandfather was Douglas Hunter, father Henry, and his father Henry.. and then I stop! All in Birmingham.. but family says I must have the wrong one.. they are convinced my great great grandfather came from Scotland but it certainly appears he was born in Birmingham!
Does anyone have access to the 1841 census records for warkwickshire to see if Henry Hunter is listed there, maybe that might say where he was born?? any suggestions anyone!! many thanks, Roz
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Hello,
I can see Henry, the hairdresser in 1841.
Then there is this:
1841 HO107; Piece 1141; Book: 8; Folio: 31; Page: 20
Upper Hospital Street
Elizabeth Hunter 30 yrs Dipper
Eliza 5 yrs
Henry 2 yrs
all born in county
They are transcribed as Hander but I would say it is Hunter. However no Henry with them :-\
What is the address on Henry's birth certificate?
What do you mean about the two wives?
heywood
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I can see Henry son of the hairdresser in 1851 which leaves this Henry:
1851:HO107/2056/285/7
found Henry the son in 1881 listed as Hunt.
jim
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I have been following, hopefully, the right family from Douglas back through the censuses.
Is your Henry a toolmaker and before that a Gunmaker with mother Elizabeth in 1851?
If its him- where do Cordelia, Selina and young Elizabeth fit in?
I have found Cordelia visiting in 1851 but this family can't be yours as you have them in 1851 with Josiah :-\
I am wondering if I am on the wrong track entirely. Will have a last look and then wait for you to come back, Roz.
heywood :D
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I have him as a porter in 1851 Heywood.Think we need Henry's birth/marriage details.
jim
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Yes I had that one too which is the one Roz has and is the 1841 family I found (I think).
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I've found the Elizabeth with daughter Selina in 1851
1851 HO107; Piece: 2061; Folio: 198; Page: 21
(no son Henry :-\)
can't find this family in 1841 as yet and have to go out now - ladies who lunch ;D
will pop back later and hope that we are nearer to solving this.
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Sorry everyone.. time difference! Friday night was out then sleep!
Thank you all for your searches! Douglas was my grandfather, Henry was his father married Helen Paulucci in 1864 Henry was 25 at the time, making his birth 1839, this is where I found the two Henrys in Birmingham. He is not the hairdresser, so presume he must he the other one. His birth cert. states father Henry , mother Elizabeth Brooks, His occupation is ... ( I think) working???chipmist.. difficult to read, so have no idea!, address 2 court , little charles st, Birmingham. Died 1909 , stating his occp. as formerly a mechanical engineer. I also found them in the 1881 census under the name on Hunt! children. Graham, helen,ada,katie,frank and gertrude. I also found them in the 1851 census with Henry and his father.. Henry Hunter head 58, wife: Elizabeth, children Eliza, 14, HENRY 11, Mary 7, Sarah 5 and Josiah 1 month.. It states all born in Birmingham.. This is where the confusion started, as my family said could'nt be right! but it does appear to be!
I could find no marriage certificate for Henry Hunter and Elizabeth Brooks but could find one for Henry Hunter and Elizabeth Shaw in 1829 at St Philips, Birmingham , I could not read the witness unfortunatley.. So it could be the other Henry Hunter! I did find an IGI record to show a Henry Hunter born 1792 , st. martin, Birmingham parents Henry and Jane.
So as you can see I am a little confused! I do have certs. for Gertrude Cordelia, Graham Harvey,Kate,Ellenand Josiah. Does any of this helps?? many thanks, Roz
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I did forget to mention, that yes Henry was a gun maker, gun stocker, gun smith!
It does seem that there where two Henry and Elizabeths??? as their appears to be two sets of children the John, Mary Jemima, Cordelia, Elizabeth, and Selina, as these are not on the 1851 census with the others!
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Sorry- I'm confused.
1851 HO107; Piece: 2056; Folio: 285; Page: 7
?Court Church Street (feint writing)
Henry Hunter 58 yrs Porter
Elizabeth Hunter 48 yrs
Eliza Hunter 14 yrs
Henry Hunter 11 yrs
Mary Hunter 7 yrs
Sarah Hunter 5 yrs
Josiah Hunter 1 yr
1851 1851 HO107; Piece: 2061; Folio: 198; Page: 21
198 (?) Heneage (?) Street Aston
Elizabeth Hunter widow 39 yrs Dressmaker
Mary Ann 15 yrs
Alice 13 yrs
Elizabeth 4 yrs
Celena 1 yr
1851 HO107; Piece: 2053; Folio: 73; Page: 31
Cordelia Hunter 6yrs visitor to Sara Wrighton
(I thought I'd just look on Family Search- first tried Sarah Hunter - marriage to a Daniel Wrighton 1823 St Martin Birmingham :-\ wonder if that is the connection)
1861 RG9; Piece: 2161; Folio: 5; Page: 4
17 New John Street West Birmingham
Elizabeth Hunter 49 yrs
Henry Hunter 21 yrs Gun Stocker
Cordelia Hunter 16 yrs
Elizabeth Hunter 13 yrs
Selina Hunter 11yrs
So as you say, there are two sets of children both with mothers Elizabeth.
What are the details on Cordelia's birth certificate- how do they compare with Josiah's?
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Family Search has baptisms for Cordelia and Selina (plus others for parents Henry and Elizabeth ???).
Selina's is 1850 - Josiah was born 1850ish too.
There is a death for Henry Hunter March quarter 1851 Aston I wonder if this is the huband of Elizabeth (2). Aston is where she is living.
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What I can't find, is any of the family of Henry and Elizabeth (with Josiah son) in 1861 ???
There are several Henry Hunter deaths 1851-1861 and a Joseph plus many others of various names
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Douglas was my grandfather, Henry was his father married Helen Paulucci in 1864 Henry was 25 at the time, making his birth 1839, this is where I found the two Henrys in Birmingham. He is not the hairdresser, so presume he must he the other one. His birth cert. states father Henry , mother Elizabeth Brooks, His occupation is ... ( I think) working???chipmist.. difficult to read, so have no idea!, address 2 court , little charles st, Birmingham. Died 1909 , stating his occp. as formerly a mechanical engineer.It states all born in Birmingham.. This is where the confusion started, as my family said could'nt be right! but it does appear to be!
That birth certificate may not be your Henry though ???
What is his father's occupation on your Henry's marriage certificate and what address?
Do the witness' names help?
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I'm sorry- I'm like a dog with a bone.
It looks as though Henry the Gunmaker etc is right from 1861 onwards.
Looking at the 1851 Elizabeth, daughter Alice is 13 yrs not 3 yrs so have amended that.
Stillc an't find them in 1841 though ::)
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You've got the same info. as I have.I'm trying to compare the 1851 & 61 families.At first I thought they were another family but like you I found Cordelia but there's no sign of Josiah after 1851 or any BMD,there is an 1873 marriage for Selina.I think what's throwing us at the mo. is the lack of an 1871 & 81 census.
jim
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I've just looked at Cordelia in census after marriage but nothing to help.
There are two distinct families in 1851 but Henry is with one then and the other in 1861 ???
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The only positive info. is the 1861 census with Henry as a gunstocker.Which means he belongs to the 1851 family living in Heneage St...so the Henry in the other 1851 census must be the wrong one.
Maybe Roz could scan the father's occupation so we can try and decipher what he did.
I think you're right about Henry's death Mar.1851/16/174.
jim
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Found Elizabeth Hunter 1881 with daughter Selina Dillon.RG11/3018/79/6
Looks like Elizabeth died 1890 age 78
jim
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I think I'm going mad ::)
If that were right... (apologies if all this is repetition.
1841 HO107; Piece 1141; Book: 13; Folio: 52; Page: 22
Lower Tower Street
Henry Hunter 35 yrs hairdresser
Elizabeth Hunter 30yrs
Samuel Hunter 11 yrs
Mary Hunter 6 yrs
Clarah Hunter 4 yrs
Henry Hunter 2 yrs
Byron Hunter 4 months
all born in county
1851 HO107; Piece: 2057; Folio: 440; Page: 34
64 Lancaster Street
Samuel Henry Hunter 21 yrs hairdresser
Henry Hunter brother 11 yrs hairdresser
(had been discounted re hairdresser)
In 1861 Samuel is a Retail Brewer so has changed his career.
Is Henry with his brother because father is dead and sisters are with mother?
There is a death for a Bryan ... is that Byron?
Are Mary and Clara H - Mary Ann and Alice?
Then there's the other one with Josiah as brother... :o
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I've discounted the hairdresser family as well.if it was right Mary would be 16 in 1851 but she's listed as 7.
jim
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I've discounted the hairdresser family as well.if it was right Mary would be 16 in 1851 but she's listed as 7.
jim
If you are looking at Henry the porter- I am now discounting them :o
I meant Mary who is 6 yrs in 1841 and Mary Ann who is 15 yrs in 1851.
I'm not sure of anything -truth be known.
I think at the moment, the clues are thse various birth certificates especially Cordelia's as she is easily identifiable because of her name.
I am not that sure that Roz has the right Henry's birth certificate.
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These are the St.Philip's births for Henry & Elizabeth.
Henry 5/6/1839
Henry 16/7/1839
Mary/ 1/5/1843
Mary Jemima 1/5/1843
John Byron 26/4/1843/d.1844
Cordelia 15/11/1844
Sarah 13/8/1845
Elizabeth 3/8/1847
Selina 24/1/1850
Josiah ch.3/2/1851 St.Martin's
So the family with John Byron can't be the same family with Mary Jemima.
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But there are also two Henrys there ???
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Mary & Mary Jemima were twins & born the same year as John Byron so different families each with a Henry b.1839.
jim
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I'll let you sort the families then ;)
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Good work Jim- I have added a bit to yours
Henry 5/6/1839 there are two births on Free BMD
Henry 16/7/1839
Mary/ 1/5/1843 a death for Mary June quarter 1843
Mary Jemima 1/5/1843
John Byron 26/4/1843/d.1844
Cordelia 15/11/1844
Sarah 13/8/1845
Elizabeth 3/8/1847
Selina 24/1/1850
Josiah ch.3/2/1851 St.Martin's
So the family with John Byron can't be the same family with Mary Jemima.
You would imagine that the family with John Byron is the same as the one with Byron who is in 1841- the hairdresser.
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I'm wondering if Mary & Mary Jemima are the same.I know that some children were christened twice,in this case the 2nd. may have been a Baptism.
So we know now there are 3 Henry Hunters born 1839,1 to the porter,1 to the hairdresser & 1 listed as gunstocker but not all appearing on the census at the same time & only 2 births.
jim
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At the moment, and I am not sure why, I am inclined to think that Henry the Gunstocker is perhaps Henry the hairdresser :-\
I feel sure that there must be someway of sorting them - the birth certificates and marriage certificates would hopefully help.
When Roz comes back, she wil be able to help... fingers crossed. :D
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I'm inclined to agree,the only thing putting me off is that this Henry was living with Samuel in 1851 which indicates both parents were dead but there may be another reason why.
We need Roz to get back with the birth/marriages.
jim
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... 'cos he needed to work and his dad had just died ... I know what you mean- it's all so difficult :)
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...and he didn't really want to be a hairdresser ... he wanted to make Guns :o :o :o
(reminds me of my grandsons- last week at the Royal Armouries ... I have to say it was boys' heaven!)
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B'ham was famous for gunmaking.Made some of the best guns in the world & B'ham had the 1st. proofing house where all guns were tested & then proof marked.Up to then it was more dangerous being on the back end.It's still there today.
jim
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Hi all, Gosh.. Now I am totally confused.. I have only just read all your replies.. thank you all so much for all your searching... You of course could be right about the wrong birth certificate of Henry??? but as the other one was a hairdresser I went for this one, I was a little short on cash at the time I did this research ( about 15 years ago) so tried to be careful how many certs. I brought, maybe a bad idea, I have not scanned in a lot of the certs. But looking again at 1839 birth of Henry, address 2 court, little charles street. Elizabeth formally Brooks, occp. Working Chipmist?? . cert. from St Pauls, Birmingham, Actual birth 5th June, 1839. I also notice that the IGI states Elizabeth Brooks christened 20 Nov, 1803 at Morton Bagot, warwick, this would put her at the right age for Elizabeth, but no marriage found?? I also found an marriage for a Henry Hunter to Elizabeth Shaw 1829 Saint Philips, Birmigham..... I have a death cert. of Henry Hunter, which I feel is the right one as they where living in Aston Manor and my grandparents lived there as well. He died May 1909 at 69 which has his age right, occp. formally a mechanical engineer which is also right as they landed up with a smelting factory.. not sure if I have that right!! but Douglas my grandfather had a aluminium foundry. Maybe it is all one family? and they got them all christned together. There is so much info now, I need to sit down and try and work all the dates etc. out.. And I thought I was confused before! I will try and scan in the other certs I have. Josiah Cert. says born 9th Feb, 1850 11 court, Little charles street, Birmingham, Father Henry, Mother Elizabeth, formally Brookes Father Occp. Porter, St Pauls, Birmingham X marks the spot for Elizabeth , mother 11 court, Little charles street. Maybe he died???
I do have a parish print out for 1836 of daughter Eliza Born 11th Aug 1836 Parents Henry and Elizabeth, abode Smith Street, Trade Dipper & Lacguerer? so maybe this is the other Henry. The other ones I have are all Little charles street. Stoipping for breakfast now!
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HI all, I have now scanned in the certs I do have. Firstly, the 1881 in the name of HUNT if definatley correct and I do have some of their certs but I know it's the right family, Douglas my grandfather born in 1883 after census. So the Gun maker is correct! Then the confusion still continues about which one is the right Henry . On Henry death certificate it says he was a mechanical engineer but would you go from a porter to a mechanical engineer??. The other death certificate I have of Henry born 1792 died 1855 says he was a fireman, is this the father of Henry!!
What I did think.. Henry born 1792 married Elizabeth??? children : Eliza 1837 I but a long wait??) he would be 45??? , then HENRY 1840, Mary 1844, Sarah 1846, Josiah 1850. Henry then married Helen Paulucci 1864 which I also know is correct... It's the two Henrys I still cannot work out !! Could he have one wife and one lover?? both Elizabeth?? but being a porter no money!!
Still no record of marriage to Elizabeth Brooks which is stated on all the birth certs I have, but only the marriage to Elizabeth Shaw 1829
So I am so sorry, this is still totally confusing... I cannot see a simple solution to this.. apart from getting more birth certificates ???
Once again I do thank you all for your help, this has been driving me mad for some time!! I am not sure how many certs. I can send at one time??
I am beginning to think the 1861 census you have for Henry being a gun smith must the right Henry and I was looking at the wrong one.. Need to try and find them on the 1851 census , I will go back to it again and look for mis spelt names.. On the 1861 census does it say place of birth??? I did try to scan in the certs. but it was coming up with an error??
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After going through all your notes and suggestions. I am beginning to think I was going after the wrong Henry Hunter, although still no proof either way, but it does seem more likely the 1861 census with the gun maker must be the right one. I cannot find them on the 1851 cd census I have. That is why I presumed it must be the porter... Also one of Henry and Helen's daughters was called Gerturde Cordelia so there is a cordelia link, small I know.. but the more info you have brought forward makes me think it must be that Hunter with Selina etc.. Not the Josiah family as I had thought, mainly due to the census records.. I will now have to re think the whole thing and begin again with certificates! But, I would like to know if anyone does have place of birth etc for the 1861 census?? Please, that would be very helpful. My sincere apologies if I have sent you all going around in circles.. myself included! Still no scottish link as yet!! many thanks, Roz
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Good morning Roz,
what a confusion - you are right!
In all cases, the birth place is Birmingham from 1851 onwards.
At the moment it does look as though 1861 - all is well with the family and Henry.
That makes Henry, according to 1861, the brother of Cordelia and Selina and son of Elizabeth- their mother. That is why, I think that Cordelia's birth certificate would really be of use and I thought you said that you had that one. (Perhaps that is Gertrude Cordelia's you have?)
As you say- no Scottish link- but there are Scottish names- Douglas and Graham etc so maybe that's where the family belief comes from.
Lastly, and I don't know how to correct this if necessary, but I don't think we are allowed to post full copies of certificates- just the relevant bits e.g. the occupation box etc so if you are posting future ones, you would be better just doing that bit.
best wishes
Kath
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Whoops, didn't realise that about certificates, good job I didn't do any more!
When I get time I will got into SOG in Sydney and apply for the birth cert. of Cordelia. No, I don't have her's but I do have Gertrude Cordelia! It's very strange how they just seem to disapear! I might also try and get Selina's as well to see if it gives me any more info!
Many thanks Kath for your help, kind regards, Roz
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Yes,Ok at 1861 & 1851 for Cordelia.Henry the porter is another family as Elizabeth in that one is 10 years older,that leaves the hairdresser which is a possibility or you have to believe there are 3 Henry's all born 1839.
Can you do a high res. scan of the father's occupation on Henry's birth cert.
jim
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Maybe the age of Elizabeth is a mistake?? possible?? I am going to get the certificates of Cordelia and Selina and see what they have to say! Cannot get a better result for the certificate it is very unclear to start with..
Maybe the certificates will give me some insight??!! I think I will just have to wait until they arrive otherwise I think I am just going around in circles!!
thank you for all your help and suggestions!
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Hi,
from memory, Elizabeth ( Gunmaker's mother) has a consistent age thro' censuses.
Don't forget too that there is a Henry death - no age specified.
I agree Roz, that you now need to take a step back - weigh up what is really known and see what certificates are needed.
Please let us know though won't you when something turns up.
thanks
Kath
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Hi Kath, will let you know when the certs. arrive, normally take about a month! thanks, Roz