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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Quinlyn on Thursday 08 April 10 12:55 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I wonder if anyone can help assist me and my friend Jennifer with our search for Phoebe Hovells. We have tried for many months to discover what happened to this lady. We have a few details, which are:
She was baptised on the 8 April 1821 (189 years ago exactly) and had been born to parents Henry Hovells and Phoebe (nee Powell). We think the mother was a citizen from Gibraltar. Phoebe gave birth (illegitimately) to one of my ancestors, Mary Jane Hovells in December 1841. What we are not sure about is: what became of the mother Phoebe Hovells (b 1821). We know that the family came from Suffolk, but Henry and Phoebe were married in Newcastle upon Tyne.
On the 1841 census young Phoebe is living with her parents, Phoebe and Henry at the Glassworks, Monkseaton, with brothers Benjamin and Robert. On the 1851 census, the family are living at South Moor, Stanley, but Phoebe jnr is not listed, although her brothers Benjamin and Robert are still at home. Phoebe jnr's daughter is living with the grandparents, but under the name of 'Stamp' or 'Stump'. This cannot have been an official name for Mary Jane as her marriage certificate states it is 'Hovells'.
We have searched for the marriage between a Phoebe Hovells and a man called Stamp or Stump - without any luck. We are hoping to find Phoebe's death certificate, if possible, and would appreciate any help that can be offered. One of the difficulties we have found is that the name Hovells, has been badly misinterpreted and appeared as Hobbles and Hovvles etc, which has not made the search any easier.
Thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Hi, there are two deaths registered for a Phoebe Hovells:
SeptQ 1853 Sunderland 10a p199 (Phoebe Hovvels) and
DecQ 1855 Durham 10a page number unclear (Phoebe Hovels) but the Register Office at Bishop Auckland should be able to help www.nebmd.co.uk/
Presumably one of these is Phoebe snr. Still can't see Phoebe jnr in 1851 though.
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Thanks Angelfish58 for your help.
We have now looked into both of those deaths; the 1853 death was the one of Phoebe snr (we have ordered the certificate) and after contacting the nebmd we have discovered that the 1855 death was of a child, sadly. We can only assume that Phoebe jnr married someone else, and that is why the child was unofficially given the surname of 'Stamp'. However, no marriage can be found, which means that if Phoebe was not married legally, that she would have died as a 'Hovells', so where can the death record be? It's all quite strange...it's like the lady just vanished...
I do appreciate your help and thanks for taking the time to contact me.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Hi,
I have info on the HOVVELS surname of a later date from two headstones in Burnhope churchyard if you don't already have them.
mim
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Hi Mim,
That would be great - thank you very much for contacting me.
Jennifer and I have been working on the 'Problem with Phoebe' all weekend. It really is a mystery, so the information you have about the gravestones may be a vital clue. The name Hovells has been written down so many ways - that it's anybody's guess as to what she could be called on a death certificate; it's even be recorded as Hoocks and Hobbles.
Thanks again - I look forward to getting that information.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Possible Death;
Phoebe HOVELLS, March 1879, Camberwell, 1d 553, Age 56 ( born c 1823)
Trish :)
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for that, I will order the certificate. I have never heard of Camberwell (showing my ignorance). It seems a long way from her home town in the North East, but if she was visiting relatives and died would the death be registered where she died or her home town? That's quite a new line of enquiry.
You are being a great help to me and I do appreciate it. I have been quite overwhelmed by the help I have received from people on this website - it's wonderful.
Thanks again. I will keep you posted and let you know if it's 'My Phoebe'. I don't think Agatha Christie could have produced a better mystery than this girl has provided us with; we have been tracking her down for months...
Kind regards,
Michael
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The Death would be reg where she died. Depending on who was the informant on the death cert age could be a few years out.
Hope shes yours :)
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Hi Trish,
Thanks for letting me know that - I wasn't sure if the registration had to occur in the person's home area or parish. I am hoping that it is our Phoebe, as we certainly have put an awful lot of effort into looking for her. It could be that she has been travelling or visiting relatives. We have her baptism/Christening date as the 8 April 1821, so the date is only 2 years out. It sounds very likely...(we are keeping our fingers crossed).
Michael
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Hi Michael,
This is the Hovvels info from the headstones at Burnhope Co Durham. They won't help in your search for Phoebe as they are of a much later date but perhaps may be of some use.
In Loving Memory of Mary Ann dearly beloved wife of Henry Hovvels of Burnhope who died August 31st 1917 aged 61 years. Also Henry their son who died at Ballengeich South Africa July 27th 1916 aged 31 years. Also Henry husband of the above who died March 17th 1925 aged 73 years.
In Loving Memory of John Wilkinson Hovvels the beloved husband of Frances Jane Hovvels who died June 10th 1924 aged 59 years. Also Phoebe Jane Hovvels beloved daughter of the above who died May 4th 1925 aged 20 years. Also Ethel their beloved daughter who died Feb 12th 1927 aged 19 years and 10 months. Also Wilson their son and beloved husband of Jennie died April 11th 1955 aged 52 years.
mim
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Hi Mim,
Thanks so much for that information, I am going to add that to my file. It would seem that Henry and Phoebe have always been very popular first names for the Hovells/Hovvels family; they seem to go back as far as our research has taken us. Your information has almost brought us right up to the present time.
I appreciate you taking the time to send me that information. Thank you very much.
Kind regards,
Michael
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The site www.gravestonephotos.com/public/findfamily.php?name=Hovells has an entry for a Phoebe buried in Lowestoft in 1879 age 56 so year of birth abt 1823, I wonder if this could be the Camberwell Phoebe taken back to Suffolk for burial?
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Hi Angelfish58,
Thanks for that information; I have just had a look at the website. It would appear that that Phoebe was married to John Hovells, so she could have married a distant relative. Jennifer is going to request the gravestone photograph from the people who have the website. We are also going to order the death certificate of the 'Camberwell Phoebe' and see if there is any information on there that can help us solve the mystery... We will keep you informed of our progress.
Thanks for finding that for us...
Michael
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I wonder if any of the Hovells who moved to Co.Durham emigrated to America? There's a a Phoebe Hovells Bowman (19.12.1836-31.1.1904) buried in Hillcrest Cemetery, Federalsburg, Caroline County, Maryland on www.findagrave.com
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It would appear that that Phoebe was married to John Hovells,
It's too early ;D I never thought of her being married. Major blonde/senior moment ;D
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Hi Angelfish58
Our minds must be working on parallel trains of thought, as I had wondered about Australia. I am trying to think about what the situation would have been for Phoebe back then. Did young women, who were unmarried, travel abroad on their own in those times? Someone mentioned that she might have migrated somewhere, but it would seem a big risk, plus she had a child. Later her daughter is living with her grandparents, so Phoebe must have gone 'somewhere'. I wonder if she has died and has not been registered or whether she has been registered and her name has been incorrect.
I would imagine that Phoebe Hovells Bowman is related, as Phoebe and Hovells seem to be popular a combination with the family history that I have discovered. Thanks for letting me know about that, you have done well to discover it - I wouldn't know where to even start the search... The one that you found on the gravestone could be the one that we are looking for, as there is only 2 years difference with the dates 1821/1823. She could have married a distant cousin.
One of my colleagues suggested that she might simply have gone 'missing'. In which case would people have known her name when she died? It would be great to know what became of her. I have told my Dad that we might never know what became of his gg grandmother Phoebe. It is rather a puzzle...
Thanks again for your help, it's really good of you to be so helpful.
Michael
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Hi Angelfish58
she has been registered and her name has been incorrect.
Michael
Not impossible, I recently found one of mine who had been registered under the name James Stockdale instead of James Stockton, luckily I knew when he was buried, where he lived and his employment so it was easy to check the details with the local Register Office.
I've checked the NBI for Phoebe but only the Lowestoft one shows, Sunderland isn't covered if indeed she did die there unmarried.
I've also checked the 1851 census just using initials but with no likely results. I'll keep looking as I enjoy trying to track down the elusive ones.
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I do appreciate all of the time and effort you are taking trying to find my missing relative. I don't think they can come much more elusive than this. We found her name as Hoocks on one census, and Hobbles on another. She could be registered under a similarly strange non-de-plume.
You mentioned the NBI - what exactly is that? There were a number of Phoebe Hovells that died in Durham, we have checked them all - as far as I know, most were children, apart from Phoebe's mother. We haven't heard of the NBI.
I am very impressed with your tenacity...
Thanks again.
Michael
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Hi Michael, sorry, the NBI is the National Burial Index, very useful so far as it goes but there isn't full coverage either of dates or places, a new version is just out however.
I've been looking at the One World Tree (granted not that reliable) and the couple of entries that include Edward Henry Bowman have his wife as Phoebe Hovells, FreeBMD however has an entry DecQ1854 Newcastle Upon Tyne which includes Edward Henry Bowman and Phoebe Burns, could she be a Phoebe Hovells Burns*, i.e. possibly Phoebe's niece or did your Phoebe knock 15 years off her age?
* She's Phoebe Hovells Burns bap 26 Dec 1836, All Saints, Newcastle daughter of John Burns & Ann
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Hi,
The Phoebe I am looking for was baptised (according to the Family Search website) on 8 April 1821, at Belton, Suffolk to parents Henry Hovels and Phoebe (nee Powell). Her parents were married in Newcastle (in 1812), so they could have been visiting relatives when young Phoebe decided to make her entrance into the world... Phoebe Hovells Burns must be some relative; perhaps one of Phoebe's brothers or sisters had a child called Phoebe (she had a number of brothers and sisters). Phoebe had her daughter in 1841, so this couldn't have been her - although I am intrigued at the connection...especially as she was baptised at Newcastle upon Tyne. It would seem that the family were quite fascinated by the name 'Phoebe', they seem to have them in every generation on my family chart. It hasn't made the search any easier really, especially when some of the census information is not that accurate.
Thanks for all of your efforts Angelfish58...you are very kind.
Kind regards,
MQN
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The other Pheobe's may not be related. I've got several Phoebe's in my tree born 1820 - 1830's & have seen several other namesakes, none of which are related to my tree.
Jay
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Forgot to say the Phoebe's death my not have been registered. I've got 2 early death of direct rellies that weren't, i've only managed to kill them off by finding their burials.
Jay
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Hi JayG,
Thanks for your message.
If her death has not been registered: would the best thing to do would be to do as you have done and visit the nearest graveyards to where the family were living? I could look at the census and see where the nearest placed graveyard or churchyard was and go from there.
There is no one on that side of the family that I can ask, unfortunately, so my options are becoming very limited.
Thanks,
Michael
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Hi Michael, I think burial records rather than churchyards, if your family are anything like mine then headstones are very thin on the ground. There are bishops transcripts online at
http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.htm
click on browse record collection, then Europe, then Durham Bishops Transcripts. They're not indexed so you have to trawl through. (Some Newcastle records are under Durham and some under Northumberland)
Phoebe is certainly proving tricky to find after 1841, I'm running out of ideas of where to look, not giving up yet though as she has to be somewhere :-\
Barbara
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Hi Barbara,
That is a very good point - never thought of that. Seeing as Phoebe's last place (on the census, that is), is South Moor, I have contacted someone who may have some burial records that might be helpful. That was a very good idea of yours. The other relatives I have looked for in cemeteries and graveyards have never been found (many of my relatives would probably not have been able to afford the gravestones - sadly). I will let you know if I manage to get any information about the burial. Jennifer and myself have been reading through all the messages again during my lunch hour - we are very grateful for all of the help we have received.
We have had a good look at that link you sent - it's fascinating to see the actual originals. We looked under Lanchester and found records for South Moor, but there seems to be a great big chunk missing after 1841...which then goes to 1855. Thwarted again...but having said that we have found a lot of other records - so thanks for that...a real find.
You are right about Ms Hovells being difficult to find; I have a good many relatives who are telephoning me and asking me if I have found 'Our Phoebe' yet. It would be nice to think there was a happy ending to her story - that we might just stumble across...
Thanks again; I will let you know if I find anything (fingers crossed).
Michael
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I can't believe I forgot www.durhamrecordsonline.com Burial records for Holy Trinity, Southwick from 1844 are on there so Phoebe Snr shows up but there is that gap between the 1841 census and 1844.
If you do a search with no forename and just Hov% in the surname for all records all districts you get quite a lot of Hovell records. If you haven't used it before it's pay per view but you can cheat by using it to at least find the year you want and then go back to the Bishops Transcripts.
Barbara
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Good morning Barbara,
Thanks for that link; I did what you mentioned and saw the list of Hovells' coming up, including Phoebe. Do you think that if I paid for the information that they may have any information about her death? I noticed that you can e-mail the site and I wondered if that was an option - to find out if they have the information first. I went back to the Durham transcripts for Lanchester but after 1841 there seems to be a gap until 1855. Jennifer mentioned that she might go to see the records and see if there was anything there that she could find out.
You have been an enormous help.
Kind regards,
Michael
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. Do you think that if I paid for the information that they may have any information about her death?
No, they had no burial or marriage for Phoebe jnr, just the 1841 census. If you click on Parish Records on the left side of the page you will see what dates, records and Parishes are covered.
I wonder if it might be worth phoning Tyne & Wear Archives who may have suggestions of records that could be searched, Phoebe may have named Mary's father in the Parish Overseers records for instance.That probably won't help to find her but it fleshes things out.
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Thanks for that suggestion Barbara, I will ask Jennifer if she has the details for Tyne and Wear Archives.
I have meant to ask you, the last few times that I have posted, what you think the significance of Phoebe jnr's daughter being called 'Mary Jane Stamp' on the 1851 census is, when she is living with her grandparents? I have done searches for a marriage between a Phoebe Hovells and and a man called 'Stamp', but with no luck. Are we missing something?
Thanks again,
Michael
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It may be that her father's name was Stamp, I have a number of illegitimate ancestors and they nearly all use both their mothers surname and their father/stepfathers name. (I did notice a coincidence though, there's a death for Henry Hovells JunQ1849 Sunderland 24 page 223 and on the same page there's a death for a Robert Stamp.)
Just a thought, does Phoebe appear as a marriage witness or death informant to any family members after 1841?
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Hi,
As far as I am aware, I don't think she appears as a witness on any marriage or death certificates. She certainly isn't a witness at her daughter's wedding, as we checked that information yesterday. I will look into the 'Stamp' thing a bit more and see if I can find anything. I am going to wear a deerstalker and an Inverness cape shortly, seeing as I am becoming a part-time sleuth... ;)
Thanks.
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;D ;D And as my main line is Watson.........
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That was so funny...I had never noticed that!
That's why we have made a good team... :)
Michael
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Hi JayG,
Thanks for your message.
If her death has not been registered: would the best thing to do would be to do as you have done and visit the nearest graveyards to where the family were living? I could look at the census and see where the nearest placed graveyard or churchyard was and go from there.
There is no one on that side of the family that I can ask, unfortunately, so my options are becoming very limited.
Thanks,
Michael
As has been posted the burial registers is the best way to go, the only problem with that is if the family moved around alot!
Luckily I found the headstone of one of my missing registrations, this lead to finding her burial but produced no death, even after having the Local Register Office check for me.
The other missing death I found by checking burial register for where they lived, lucklily they'd stayed in the same area so it was easy enough. Had they moved around I doubt i'd of found it tho.
I've got several people who 'disappear' & often go back to look into them. I've managed to 'find' two missing people recently, one travelling to Canada & the other to USA.
I had a x X great uncle who disappeared after the 71 census, since the release of the 1911 census he's turned up living with his nephew, i'm still trying to find him in the missing 40 years!
Best of luck in your search for Phoebe.
Cheers
Jay
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Hi Jay,
Thanks for that information. As Barbara and yourself have suggested I am going to try the Burial Records. I am rather an amateur to all of this family research, so am still finding my way around. Jennifer knows a lot more about it than me, so she will probably help me with that.
Trying to find Phoebe has been quite frustrating and quite exciting, but I am hoping that I can bring it to a conclusion (there will be a gap on my chart otherwise). Thanks for wishing me luck with my search.
Thanks again for all of your help and advice; I also enjoyed hearing about your search for your relatives. Good luck with your searching too.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Not sure whether you are still looking ,or even if it is of help, but the information from the Suffolk Burial Index for Phoebe Hovells is -
Forename - Phoebe
Surname - Hovells
Abode - Lowestoft St. Margaret
Buried - 11 March 1879
Age - 56
Burial Place - Lowestoft St. Margaret
There are about twenty HOVELLS burials in the Lowestoft/Hopton/Corton/Lound area of Suffolk between 1845-1895.
Regards,
Kevin Scott
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Hi Kevin,
Thanks for that information. The date and age are right and so is the location, so we will look into it further. Phoebe's daughter was living with her grandparents in County Durham, so it would seem strange that she would die so far away from her family, but then again she could have been on holiday or visiting relatives.
It was very good of you to contact me.
She has been really difficult to locate and we currently still looking, although this could be her. What has made it even more difficult is that the spelling of her surname has altered so much ie. Hovvels, (and the double v then being mistaken for a w).
Thanks again for that Kevin. We will look into that. I will keep you informed of our progress.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Hi,
I have recently (just last week) discovered some new information on Phoebe. Seemingly, at her daughter Mary Jane's baptism in Monkwearmouth in April 1842, the father was registered as Matt'w Stamp. This is obviously the reason Mary Jane is called Stamp on the 1851 census. So now I have a name for the father. Later in 1845, Phoebe and Matthew are at another daughter's baptism; she is called Jemima. Matthew is recorded as being a blacksmith. The reason that it was difficult to find is the fact that Phoebe's surname is written as Horvells. I cannot find a marriage between Phoebe and Matthew, but I wonder if they emigrated (as previously mentioned). Is it possible to find out passengers' names that went to different countries (Australia, America, Canada etc) from the baptism of Jemima in 1845 or from 1841 when Phoebe last had a mention (as far as we know) on the British census?
Thanks so much for all of your help so far.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Hi I have just started on the Hovvels, Phebe Hovvels Burns is the Grandaughter of Henry Hovvels and Phebe Powell, she is the daughter of Ann Hovvels born c1813 Phebe Hovvels Burns can be found in Newcastle Upon Tyne in 1851.
I have image of marriage entry for Henry and Phebe and Baptism image for Phebe Hovvels Burns and hope to get more. I have been hunting for Ann Hovvels baptism but no trace she is shown born Newcastle but perhaps they went straight back to Suffolk and had Ann there then returned to Southwick Sunderland for 1841/51 Henry is with Ann in 1861 but shown born Newcastle, but that's just an error I guess. Dong more on this and will use the information you have to try and help piece all together, all Henry and Phebe's children seem to mostly have settled in County Durham.
Chuck Gaish
ps have Ann Hovvels marrige image to John Burns in Gateshead Fell as well.
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Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the message. Ann Hovells/Hovvels is a new one on me, as the first child that I had found (until now) was Mary (born in Belton in 1816). She was followed by Margaret b: 1817, George H. b: 1819, Phoebe b: 1821, Jane Bonnyman b: 1823, Archibald Robinson b: 1825, Jemima b: 1826 (she died in 1826), Jemima b: 1829, Robert b: 1831 and Benjamin b: 1834. I have some of their christening dates if they would be of any interest to you.
I have had a search for Ann, but have found nothing. She may have had another first name and Ann was her second name, which they may have used. I have to admit that the Hovells part of my family tree has been the hardest part of the puzzle to crack. A great part of the difficulty is the spelling variations of Hovells - on one record it was down as Hoodels! The father of the above children (and your Ann) was Henry Hovells, as you know, but I have his burial date: 22 June 1862 in the Southwick area, which you may not have known.
Their mother, also called Phoebe, had died before him.
I hope that this has been of some help and should I find anymore information I will let you know.
Kind regards and best wishes with your research...
Michael
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Hi Michael, I have all my information on them on my tree at Tribal Pages it can be viewed here
http://gaishfamilytree.tribalpages.com
Regards Chuck
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Hi Chuck,
Thanks for sharing that link to your family tree with me. You really have done a great deal of work and I am very impressed... Not sure if I can fill in any more detail for you at all, but if I can be of any further help please let me know.
Kind regards,
Michael
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Hi Michael, those that are guests on my Tribal Tree get Monthy Updates if you would like to receive one just send a request via the link on the tree home page but I will try and remember to let you know through here.
Regards Chuck
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Hi not sure how long this entry has been on but Henry Hovels or Hovles or Hovvels etc was born in belton Suffolk and returned with each child for their baptism. My tree is on Ancestry with the family on think this will take you there.
http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/74682/person/-166105422
Phoebe Hovells Burns was the daughter of Ann