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Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: 2Harriet on Thursday 08 April 10 11:01 BST (UK)

Title: Completed- identity/analysis please - natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Thursday 08 April 10 11:01 BST (UK)
Hi,
I've been hoping my relative Robert Irving Johnston b 1881 Carlisle, is one of these perhaps he is the chap who is in both photos. I also have 2 postcards from him dated 1906 and 1911 from Natal, Pietermaritzburg.He does not appear on 1911 census for England.
How can i find out the names of those in the photos please. Any background to these chaps would be interesting as i'm clueless about history.
 The trophy says "Natal Rifle Association Nongqai Trophy, presented by the R---- Police 1912"
 The uniforms have NP on the shoulder.

Thanks for looking,
June

Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mole on Sunday 11 April 10 06:47 BST (UK)
I've recently written about the Natal Police (NP), a unit previously known as the Natal Mounted Police, in my blog at http://molegenealogy.blogspot.com/search?q=natal+police
There are a couple of links included on that page which may be of interest.
The pic (uniformed group) would be a bisley group of NP, and as indicated by the date 1912 on the cup the photo would have been taken quite late in the NP's career - they ceased to exist in 1913.
It would be very difficult to identify the men in these photos, unless by some miracle the same pictures were preserved in, say, Pietermaritzburg Archives Repository, with all the names given. A photo of a 'special' group made up of members of a unit (NP in this case) to perform some specific function would be unlikely to be preserved other than by the people who appear in the photo.
You may already know there is a deceased estate file for your Robert Irving Johnston held in Pietermaritzburg:
DEPOT     NAB                                                                 
SOURCE    MSCE                                                                 
TYPE      LEER                                                                 
VOLUME_NO 0                                                                     
SYSTEM    01                                                                   
REFERENCE 20273/1933                                                           
PART      1                                                                     
DESCRIPTION          JOHNSTON, ROBERT IRVING. (S/S MARGARET ALICE; BORN BARNES).           
STARTING  1933                                                                 
ENDING    1934

There are service records of NP - see my blog for more info.

Re 'Nongqai': they were the Zululand Native Police established in 1883 as a bodyguard to Sir Melmoth Osborn, Resident Commissioner of Zululand. This respected force was known as the Nongqai; their fort at Eshowe is now a museum. The Trophy mentioned would have been named in their honour.
Mole
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Sunday 11 April 10 18:40 BST (UK)
Hello Mole,
Thankyou so much, this is very interesting.
It is looking very likely then that my Robert Irving Johnston is the relative in the pctures. I did not know  about the deceased estate file (what does it mean?)but it confirms I think this is same R I Johnston as I have his date of death as  27/11/1933 recorded on a family headstone in Carlisle cemetery. Do you agree? Does this mean he died in Peitermaritzburg ? as I have no death record coming up on ancestry site . Do you know how I could find out more please?

You have helped me with a brick wall re this chap and his wife. She is known on the postcards as Daisy and I have her surname as Barnes which could have been a transcript/ spelling error. I am assuming the  (S/S MARGARET ALICE; BORN BARNES). is his "surviving spouse" and I will need to do some researching re  re M A Barnes, I have been unable to find a marriage for them re Daisy Baines. I wonder if they married in Natal.

I am off to look up your blog now...I very much appreciate your time and effort on my behalf, thanks again,
June
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mole on Monday 12 April 10 07:14 BST (UK)
In all likelihood, given the date of your Robert's death, the deceased estate file opened in 1933 would be that of the same Robert Irving Johnston. It does not necessarily mean that he died in Pietermaritzburg - he may have died elsewhere in Natal. NAB as seen on the reference to the deceased estate indicates the file is held in Pietermaritzburg Archives Repository. MSCE = Master of Supreme Court Estates. The file number and date are shown, and the description as you guessed includes mention of his surviving spouse. Daisy is found sometimes as a less usual 'nickname' for Margaret - via the similar forename Marguerite, a type of daisy. The more usual pet name for Margaret is Peggy. Still I don't think there's any confusion about Margaret Barnes being the spouse of your Robert.
You could contact Pietermaritzburg Archives Repository or alternatively hire a local professional to access the file and send you digital copies of the Death Notice and other contents e.g. Will. Lists of researchers and other contact details are given on the National Archives & Records site at www.national.archives.gov.za/  It is advisable to send any researcher the full file reference as given in my previous response to your query.

Finding a marriage in Natal would be difficult without a narrow date parameter or a parish or denomination.
If you're new to SA research, deceased estates files etc, have a look at the Beginners Guide at www.genealogyworld.net
Mole
www.molegenealogy.blogspot.com/
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Friday 23 April 10 17:16 BST (UK)
Hi,
I'm over the moon. I have contacted the eGGSA site and they are going to photograph the estate file of Robert I Johnston for me so I will get clear what his wife's name is etc . I have confirmation that although his name appears on headstone at Carlisle he is not buried there. Can't thank you enough for pointing me in the right direction.
Regards,
June
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: JOHN IRVING on Friday 17 September 10 10:38 BST (UK)
Hi June

I am one of ROBERT IRVING JOHNSTON'S grandsons , he emigrated to SA early 1903 , married MARGARET BAINES ( nicknamed DAISY) , and had 4 children, Noreen, DOUGLAS FRANCIS IRVING( my father), Elaine and Desmond, all in PIETERMARITZBURG,;and Robert initially was from Carlisle where he was a policeman with Scotland Yard, so joined the NATAL COLONIAL POLICE.He was a crack shottist with the rifle.
I am one of 4 , and presently living in the UK ,as is my eldest brother so we must meet up cousin !!!

I hope to hear from you soon

JOHN IRVING JOHNSTON
07552200955( UK MOBILE)
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: patSA on Wednesday 22 September 10 12:28 BST (UK)
Hello June

The person in your photo's is my grandfather : Robert Irving Johnston.My mom was Elaine Irving Johnston born in Pietermaritzburg Natal in 1916.My gran was Margaret Alice Baines (Johnston) -- we all called her Granny Daisy.
I see my cousin John has also contacted you -- do contact us when you have time so that we can learn more about my grandad whom John has beentrying to trace for many years.We just came up with nothing --- your photo did the trick
There are quite a few of your relations here in SA
Patricia
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: JOHN IRVING on Wednesday 22 September 10 12:36 BST (UK)
Hi Pat

I am so pleased you spotted this on ROOTSCHAT.COM !!!

Hopefully I can link up with June our second cousin soon !!


Regards

JOHN
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: babs2 on Tuesday 28 September 10 10:04 BST (UK)
Hi June !  & Hello John and Pat

John thanks so much for your email about your grandfather through Genes Reunited !

I havent been doing  much ancestor hunting recently but this has renewed my interest !

So just to let you all know that I also have some photos and postcards relating to Robert Irving Johston. they include:

-photograph of Daisy Baines1890s

-photo of three of Robert and Daisy's children as babys/ toddlers 1900s

-photo of Daisy and one of her children as baby 1900s

-2 postcards Robert sent to his sister Kate ( great aunt Katy )in 1905  - both pictures of the barracks in Natal

-postcard he sent to Harriet  of Natal Police being inspect ed by the P of Wales ( Edward v111) in London ( cant make out the date )
(says at the bottom of t he card Colonial CoronationContingents Camp Duke of Yorks School London)

-also a photo  of some sort of  humorous farewell address to a colleague/ boss in the Natal Police handwritten and illustrated with little cartoons and signed by Robert and 8 others


Regards to all

Barbara ( Junes cousin !)
















Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mole on Tuesday 28 September 10 10:48 BST (UK)
Sorry to butt in on this family discussion but re the Natal Police and the Coronation - I think that must be Edward VII - if you go to Google books and look at [partial] text of Holt's 'The Mounted Police of Natal' p178 there's more about the Coronation Contingent. Edward VIII, of course, was never crowned.
Regards, Mole.

Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: patSA on Tuesday 28 September 10 12:53 BST (UK)
Hi June !  & Hello John and Pat

John thanks so much for your email about your grandfather through Genes Reunited !

I havent been doing  much ancestor hunting recently but this has renewed my interest !

So just to let you all know that I also have some photos and postcards relating to Robert Irving Johston. they include:

-photograph of Daisy Baines1890s

-photo of three of Robert and Daisy's children as babys/ toddlers 1900s

-photo of Daisy and one of her children as baby 1900s

-2 postcards Robert sent to his sister Kate ( great aunt Katy )in 1905  - both pictures of the barracks in Natal

-postcard he sent to Harriet  of Natal Police being inspect ed by the P of Wales ( Edward v111) in London ( cant make out the date )
(says at the bottom of t he card Colonial CoronationContingents Camp Duke of Yorks School London)

-also a photo  of some sort of  humorous farewell address to a colleague/ boss in the Natal Police handwritten and illustrated with little cartoons and signed by Robert and 8 others


Regards to all

Barbara ( Junes cousin !)

















Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Tuesday 28 September 10 13:23 BST (UK)
Hi, Mole,
your input is much appreciated as always  ;)
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Tuesday 28 September 10 16:06 BST (UK)
Hey Moley are you there? a question for you, ...

John was saying on the phone to me today that Robt I Johnston left natal Police sometime after it was decided that they had to be fluent in English and the local language. Have you any idea when that was please?
June
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: babs2 on Tuesday 28 September 10 22:45 BST (UK)
Hello Mole
I had another look at the Postcard and the Prince of Wales is a young boy in the picture
so reckon it us be the uncrowned Edward who abdicated.?
He is with someone called the Duke of Connaught.
Robert ,who signs  himself Bob, says in the card he is leaving for a placement at Bisley and I noticed in an earlier  post that you referred to the 'bisley' group of Natal police.


Regards
Barbara
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mole on Wednesday 29 September 10 06:31 BST (UK)

John was saying on the phone to me today that Robt I Johnston left natal Police sometime after it was decided that they had to be fluent in English and the local language. Have you any idea when that was please?
June

This doesn't sound quite right to me - the Natal Police were a cosmopolitan force from Day One and its (white) members (there were also black members), in the course of everyday duties, soon learned the local language (Zulu) for purposes of communication. Some went on to excel at linguistics. I find no concrete evidence, in sources directly to hand, that there was every a 'cut-off' point where recruits who did not already know the indigenous language were not permitted to be members of the NP. It seems anomalous. Unless this became a prerequisite when the force was disbanded in 1913 and merged with the SAP.

You may like to know the full text of Holt's Mounted Police of Natal can be read at www.archive.org/stream/mountedpoliceofn00holtrich/mountedpoliceofn00holtrich_djvu.txt

Regards, Mole
Title: Re: photo identity/analysis please -possibly natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mole on Wednesday 29 September 10 06:52 BST (UK)
I had another look at the Postcard and the Prince of Wales is a young boy in the picture
so reckon it us be the uncrowned Edward who abdicated.?
He is with someone called the Duke of Connaught.
Robert ,who signs  himself Bob, says in the card he is leaving for a placement at Bisley and I noticed in an earlier  post that you referred to the 'bisley' group of Natal police.
Regards
Barbara

That's interesting, Barbara. Seems that another contingent of NP may have gone over to UK on a later occasion than Edward VII's coronation. So far I can't find anything about that in my Natal Police sources but will let you know if I do.
Duke of Connaught was Victoria's 3rd son, Prince Arthur; he visited Natal in December 1910.

cheers Mole
Title: Re: Completed- identity/analysis please - natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: pampoen on Tuesday 27 March 12 12:37 BST (UK)
In 1913 the units were disbanded which had something to do with Union being formed in 1910 if I am not mistaken. My grandfather was the RSM of Northern District Mounted Rifles in Vryheid which closed in 1913.
Title: Re: Completed- identity/analysis please - natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: Mardall on Friday 05 April 13 13:00 BST (UK)
I am sure the man in the middle of the second photo (third from left middle row) is Inspector O. Dimmick of the Natal Police.  He was quite a character in the force at the time.  The men in the second photo have the Natal Police badge on their hats.  "The Nongqai" was the periodical produced by the Natal Police from 1907.  The word means "armed government watchman".  The Natal Police were merged with the rest of the South African Police in 1911. I hope this is some help though I am afraid I can't identify your relation.
Title: Re: Completed- identity/analysis please - natal police and rifle association 1912
Post by: 2Harriet on Saturday 06 April 13 16:44 BST (UK)
Hi
thanks for that interesting info. My relative is 2nd from the left , back row in second photo. He is Robert Irving Johnston , Detective Head Constable  and finger print expert. He formed the Natal Police shooting team in 1910 according to a retiral article in a newspaper. I have a copy of the newspaper article and an address to a leaving colleague which many of his colleagues signed however not the name you mention. His wife was Daisy Baines , Prima Donna and actress.

This was a most exciting journey of discovery from two photos I knew no one in originally- to discovering a whole new South African living branch of the family.Thanks to Roots chatters xx