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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Mallory on Wednesday 07 April 10 22:09 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Please can anyone identify the uniform in this photo and give a possible date?
I've tried to enlarge the cap badge but its not very clear.
Thanks
Mallory
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A light infantry regiment certainly.
It doesn't appear to my eyes that there are any letters in the centre above the bugle, so Ox & Bucks LI would be my answer.
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Hi neil1821,
Thanks very much for your reply.
I think I know his surname, so now I can try to find a medal card that matches the regiment.
Thanks again
Mallory
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Hi Mallory,
As you will be able to see more detail on the original photo it may be worth checking this site out and compare. http://www.brigadeuk.com
The one in the photo looks similar to Durham Light Infantry or Kings Shropshire Light Infantry.
Tipps
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Hi Tipps,
Thanks for the site, and they do look very similar but even with a magnifying glass its very hard to see much detail.
I'm assuming that the photo was taken between 1914 and 1918 but any idea what the rank could be?
Regards
Mallory
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Hi Mallory,
Many photos similar to these were taken before they went overseas on active service and were often in the form of a postcard. The backdrops were painted or staged. Comparing this uniform to a couple of photos I have of my ancestors from WW1, it's the same appart from the braiding on the left shoulder, and the cap badge. My ancestors were privates (as were the majority when they first signed up), so I would guess he is 'at this point' a private. If you have his name, his medal card would show any rank or regiment changes. If he was a war casualty you're most likely to find him on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission http://www.cwgc.org/debt_of_honour.asp?menuid=14 (sometimes mentions a next of kin or address along with rank etc) or he may be mentioned in DeRuvigny's Roll of Honour. If he survived the war he may be mentioned in the 'The National Roll of the Great War'. Both these publications give a little bit of a biography of soldiers, which might help you rule a name out, or confirm your ideas.
I have a similar problem with an unknown soldier. My great Grandmother had a pendant with two photos of soldiers in. One of the soldiers was her husband, but I've no idea who the other one is. A likely candidate would be her only brother, but I can't find any evidence he even served in the army.
Regards,
Tipps
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Hi Mallory
The lack of any chevrons (stripes) confirms he is a Private. Also he is wearing an economy tunic (no breast pocket pleats) introduced in 1915.
Ken
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Hi Tipps and Ken,
Thanks both for the extra information and web addresses - looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet and subscribe to Ancestry or Findmypast to look at their army records.
The photo has 'Tom Butcher, Royal Berkshire' written in ink on the back but the cap badge does not seem to match that.
I thought this may have been a studio photo but wasn't quite sure.
Any idea what the shoulder braid means, is it for decoration only, and would the baton under his arm be a photographer's prop?
Thanks again
Mallory
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Sorry, deleted this and changed message.
Mallory, I've found a medal card for Thomas Butcher, Royal Berkshire Regiment. It doesn't state much really.
Thomas Butcher,
R Berks R, Private No. 28904.
Lab C (Labour Corps) 245064
Received Victory Medal and British Medal
No Theatre of War or Entry Date given
I've looked through the pensions but can't match one to these service numbers. When soldiers moved to the Labour Corps, I believe but may be wrong, that it was because they became 'unfit' for frontline duties due to injury or illness. They then went to the Labour Corps to be the fetchers and carriers of supplies etc. Maybe Ken would know a bit more about this. It seems he survived the war as I can't find him on CWGC.org
I did find this website which may be worth browsing if you have time, you may be able to match up the shoulder braiding. http://www.ww1photos.com/RoyalBerksRegt.html
Hope this helps some.
Tipps
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Hi Tipps,
Thanks for all your time, it’s much appreciated.
The only person I’ve been able to trace that this may be is Tom Butcher. According to the 1891 Berkshire census, he was born about 1886 in Brightwell, Berkshire and was the son of George and Ruth. He’s actually shown as ‘Tom’ so I’m assuming that this was his proper name, and not short for ‘Thomas’. I’ve also found that two of his brothers were in the Royal Berkshire regiment and both are listed on the CWGC website.
Thanks
Mallory
PS
You said that you looked through the pensions. Can you tell me where these records are and what they contain? The reason I’d like to know is that one of my relatives received an army pension after he was blinded in WW1.
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I found the medal card on the National Archives Documents Online (can be downloaded for £2.00). I didn't download it, but it gave me the service number. I've just re-checked for Tom (rather than Thomas) and found another for R Berks R, private No. 7400 who received all 3 medals and was discharged, but no pension record for him or service papers.
I checked the info below on Ancestry
WWI service records - these vary in length per person, but often shows: Parish, town, occupation, birth, height, description, agreement to serve etc.
WWI pension records - they contain the same basic info as in the service records, but also gives details of postings, reason for discharge, amount of pension received. Again the amount of info varies greatly per person.
Looking back at the photo, the baton looks like a riding crop as used by a cavalry regiment, so it may be a prop. But I think the braiding is regiment related.
Let me know the name of your other ancestor and I'll look for you.
Regards, Tipps
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The stick is commonly known as a "swagger" stick v popular for young lads "walking out" in their uniforms in that period
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1311&_nkw=swagger+stick&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Few examples above in link.
Ady
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Thanks Ady,
I hadn’t realised that they came in so many varieties or could be specific to a regiment. It’s very difficult to make anything out in the photo so I’ll have another look if I ever find out what regiment he was in.
Hi Tipps,
I’ve searched the web trying to identify the badge in the photo without any luck so far but it doesn’t look anything like the Royal Berkshire regiment’s.
I found the National archive site you mentioned and after searching it, I’ve downloaded a medal card that has three ‘Tom’ Butchers on it including Tom Royal Berks 7400. Looks like I’ll have to read the guide to work out what the abbreviates mean :).
If your offer’s still open, the other name I’m interested in is Batchelor, John William (Royal Sussex reg no. s/588). I’ve downloaded his card, and it seems to confirm what I think I know about him. He joined (or was already in the regiment) at the start of the war, was wounded , and sent back to England 08/11/1914. Discharged 30/01/1915.
Mallory
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Sorry for the delay. I've checked the Service Records and Pensions for John Batchelor, but none match with service number 588.
Regarding the cap badge: I showed a photo to a local guy who's a keen amateur on WW1. He immediately said it was 2 badges together. The bugle part is from a Light Infantry regiment, but normally the two strings of the bugle are on view along with the regiment number, as I'm sure you've already noticed. He said it looked like a Fusilier regiment badge placed over the top. I've looked at fusilier badges http://www.britishbadge.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=fusilier&osCsid=4d6778dcca726978ce96e630fff55517 (check out the Lancashire Fusiliers Glengarry Grenade badge) and maybe he's right. I don't know. I can't understand why someone would want to put two badges together, unless they were perhaps wearing someone elses uniform and added their own cap badge as well. It's certainly a mystery.
It might be worth taking the original photo into a Regimental Museum and seeing if they can help. They often have voluntary experts available on certain days.
Sorry I've not been able to help you more.
Regards, Tipps
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Regarding the cap badge: I showed a photo to a local guy who's a keen amateur on WW1. He immediately said it was 2 badges together. The bugle part is from a Light Infantry regiment, but normally the two strings of the bugle are on view along with the regiment number, as I'm sure you've already noticed. He said it looked like a Fusilier regiment badge placed over the top. I've looked at fusilier badges http://www.britishbadge.co.uk/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=fusilier&osCsid=4d6778dcca726978ce96e630fff55517 (check out the Lancashire Fusiliers Glengarry Grenade badge) and maybe he's right. I don't know. I can't understand why someone would want to put two badges together, unless they were perhaps wearing someone elses uniform and added their own cap badge as well. It's certainly a mystery.
He's not right.
Sorry, but that makes no sense. It's not 2 badges together (there's no conceivable reason why it would be). The part over the bugle itself is simply the bugle strings. The only debate is whether there are letters in there too, but I'd say not, hence I'm going for it being Ox & Bucks LI.
And regimental numbers went out in 1881, so it seems you're looking at badges of the wrong vintage. :)
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Hi both,
Sorry to have taken so long in replying to your posts. :-[
I’ve looked at a couple of library books on cap badges and searching the web again I think neil1821’s suggestion of the Oxon & Bucks LI seems to be the best match. I’ve found an address for the Oxfordshire & Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Museum at Woodstock in Oxfordshire so I’ll take Tipps advice and contact them to see if they recognise the uniform as one of their's.