RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Sas2010 on Wednesday 07 April 10 10:48 BST (UK)
-
Hi All
My Relation Robert Joseph Bown Padwick (Born April 1829).He was Baptised in the Parish of St Andrews,Hoborn,Middlesex in 1 July 1837.He was living in Tothill Street,Westminster,SW1 at the time of his Baptism.Would he have been baptised in St Andrews,Holborn regardless of living in Tothill Street,Westminster.In the Baptism records it is noted that he was orphaned,his parents are known only as Padwick
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
-
I see on his marriage to Margaret Fitzgerald he gives his father as his namesake and a Licenced Victualler so he must have manufactured a father.
Tressle
-
he must have manufactured a father.
Not necessarily. Looking at the dates Sarah gave, Robert was 8 years old when he was baptised, so it could be that he was taken in by someone, or an orphanage and baptised. If his parents had only recently died, he would know his father's name and occupation.
There is a marriage of a Robert Padwick to an Elizabeth Lowes on 15 Jan 1815 at St. Marylebone, London, England who could have been his parents.
Lizzie
-
Yes that makes better sense. :)
Tressle
-
Hi
There is a burial of a Robert Padwick at St Marylebone
16th August 1820 St Marylebone
Robert Padwick aged 27
There were at least two Tothill Streets
Tothill street, Broad sanctuary, Westminster
Tothill street, Little Gray's Inn Lane
The baptism doesn't say Westminster and since it doesn't specify another area then it should be Tothill Street in Holborn
http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Place:Holborn_Registration_District%2C_1841_Census_Street_Index_T-Z
Possibly this Robert on the 1841 census
HO107 670/4 folio 32
Tothill Street St Andrew Holborn
Robert Bowen 13 not born Middlesex
Regards
Valda
-
Thank you everyone,really really helpful,I didnt know there was a Tothill St,Holborn,that is really good,because it would make more sense for Robert to be baptised in Holborn.
The marriage details seem plausible as well,it might be worth looking for their death details.
Thank you for the information regarding the 1841 census,I have tried to find info about the Bown name but this is the first time the name has come up.
Robert Bown Joseph Father i know was fiction because i have checked the trade directories for him because he was a publican.
Any other ideas guys would be great,Thanks all
-
Regarding the Tothill Street,I did the mistake of assuming Tothill Street was in Westminster,as this was the only Tothill St I could find,does Tothill St,Gray Inn still exist?
I should have gathered it was in Holborn because all the other addresses in the Baptism records were in Holborn
Where is the best place to look for Street addresses in the good old days?
-
Hi
There seems no evidence that Robert had any connection with the Marylebone/Westminster -west of the City of London area and a good possibility that the Robert Padwick who married in Marylebone in 1815 was buried there in 1820.
The fact that your Robert, if it is him, was Bown on the 1841 census adds further weight to the possibility that he was illegitmate in which case any details he gave about his father on his marriage have to be taken with a pinch of salt.
A map with Tothill Street circled in yellow taken from an 1827 map of London
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/maps.jsp?map=green&map_item_id=7612&tagtype=2&mclass=f
Laystall Street which it intersects still exists see Google maps
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4HPEA_en-GBGB236GB236&tab=wl
On line historical directories are here
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/index.asp
Regards
Valda
-
Robert Bown Joseph Father i know was fiction because i have checked the trade directories for him because he was a publican.
I have quite a few ancestors who were apparently brewers, licensed victuallers etc. but all it meant was they made the beer and home and sold it from their front room, so were not listed in Trade Directories. That could be the same as Robert Joseph Bown Padwick's father.
If the Robert Bowen that Valda found on the 1841 census is Robert Joseph Bown Padwick, I wonder why he dropped the name Padwick, especially as he uses it at the time of his marriage in 1853?
By the way Tressle, how do you know that Robert gives his father as his namesake and a Licenced Victualler? Are you connected to Sarah in some way?
Lizzie
-
By the way, and probably a total coincidence on the 1851 census, HO107 piece 1594 folio 441 page 26 there is a Robert Padwick a labourer born in 1825 in Guildford, who is staying at Dolphin Inn Chertsey St, Stoke, where the head of the household is an Innkeeper. So if that is your Robert Padwick, he might have decided to use that as an occupation for his father.
I think like Valda, that it seems that your Robert was probably illegitimate. Whether his mother died or just farmed him out, I suppose you'll never know.
Lizzie
-
Another question, how do you know Robert was born in 1829?
-
Hi
The actual baptism entry gives Robert's birthdate as April 1829 and that he was an orphan
I did see the 1851 census entry but I suspect it is this older man even though the entry clearly says aged 25
ROBERT PADWICK
Christening: 02 AUG 1818 Holy Trinity, Guildford, Surrey
Father: THOMAS PADWICK
Mother: CHARLOTTE
Deaths Sep 1851 PADWICK Robert Guildford 4 132
The burial entry at Stoke next to Guildford gives his age as 30.
Regards
Valda
-
From my own experience of looking at baptisms and bastardy records for illegitimate births in Witshire in the early 1800s children baptised with four names were usually illegitimate. In many cases the third name was that of the father and the last name that of the mother. Either or both of the first two names often had a connection with one of the parents.
As an example, there is a Hugh James Brine Bennett baptised at St Thomas, Salisbury in 1809. The baptism record names no father but identifies his mother as Elizabeth Bennett of Salisbury. However, bastardy records at the WRO identify his father as a Hugh Brine, a publican of Dorset. His parents never married.
Applying the above there is a possibility that Robert's mother was a Padwick and his father a Bown. There is also a possibility that his father was a Robert, Joseph or Robert Joseph Bown. If his father was a publican or victualler there is a reasonable likelihood that his parents never married.
Nigel
-
Hi Lizzie - just to answer your question about the marriage I am not connected but the certificate is online. August 1853 he gives his age as 24 and his occupation as a Compositer.
Tressle
-
Hi
As you can see from one of Sarahcate's earlier posts Robert Joseph was not a very reliable witness, so the information he gave about his father on his marriage certificate does need to be treated with care.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,422513.0.html
There was possibly another child born to Margaret and Robert before their marriage
Births Mar 1852 PADWICK Robert Joseph St Geo east 1c 435
Deaths Dec 1852 Padwick Robert Joseph St George in the East 1c 276
Regards
Valda
-
To check Bastardy Records would it best to go to St Andrew Holborn or Parish records for Holborn??
Robert Joseph Bown Padwick (born in April 1829) also named his son Robert Joseph Bown Padwick born 15th Sept 1853 which I found interesting because with Robert Snr being illegitimate,i would of thought he would want to hide the fact.
I believe what Nigel says about the 4 names,in those days without directly pointing the finger at the fathers,the mothers would name the child with the father name in the child name.The Irony of all this is that with this ancestor I thought with such a name hey he would be so easy to find,he has turned out to be the most elusive,other than the marriage certficate,two birth certficate of his 2 children he untraceable!!!
Interesting his son Robert (born 1853) started calling himself Robert Edmund/Edwin Padwick on his marriage,his children birth certficates,his sister marriage certfifcate and on his death certificate he is called Robert Edmund Padwick.
Thanks about the suggestions regarding Guildford,but for the time being i plan to stay in the Middlesex Area as this is where my Padwicks seem to stay until my grand dad Fred moves to Willesden in 1928.
Although I have found no more records of Robert Joseph Bown Padwick after 1860,his last known record is on his daughter birth certificate Margaret Selina Padwick,he is recorded as her father Robert Joseph Bown Padwick
-
Hi
The Guildford Robert Padwick (see previous post) died in 1852.
Naming his son for himself doesn't actually tell all the neighbours that Robert himself was born illegitimately, but if he wished to keep the connection with his father - a Bown, because he thought it was a connection that should be kept, that would be why he named his son as such. Interesting his son had no desire to keep the connection.
A bastardy order would only have been made by the poor law guardians of the parish on behalf of the mother if Robert Joseph was chargeable to the parish rates. For that, the poor law guardians would need a father to serve the order on for the payment of maintenance. That was what a Bastardy order was - a maintenance order. Robert Joseph by 1837 was an orphan, so it may have been impossible to serve a maintenance order, or he may never have been chargeable to the Holborn poor law union in the first place. The 1841 census says he was not born in Middlesex.
Bastardy orders are found in the poor law records. There seemed to be none surviving for St Andrew Holborn poor law union but by 1834 you would expect to find them in the petty (magistrates court) or quarter session records (unindexed and difficult to search).
See details here
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Illegitimacy_in_England
The date of the Pall Mall Gazette newspaper account was 6th August 1866 so Robert was still alive on that date.
Regards
Valda
-
I did see Margaret Selina Padwick's marriage certificate and her father is named as Robert Edwin Padwick, Compositer - occupation which ties in with his marriage to Margaret Fiztgerald. He never seems to be on the census with the family yet Margaret (mother) is always down as married.
Tressle
-
Hi
I read the Pall Mall article about Robert James Padwick and Margaret,if what the articles says is true about attempted murder I can understand Robert dropping the Joseph Bown and having Edmund instead.
In the 1841 I found a Robert Bowen not Bown living in Tothill Street,but there was also a Jo/Jos and a Jas Bowen,I dont think this is my Robert somehow,also I cant find him in the 1851 census,1861,1871 or any other census,I gather you saw the baptism record for Robert Joseph Bown Padwick,what i did find interesting was his parents are Padwick and Padwick,how come there first names were not noted/or who was the person who brought Robert to be baptised?Could be his new adoptive parents possibly?Family relative,Robert would not have gone by himself he was only 8,bless him!!
What is interesting too is that both Margaret and Robert Jr call their father Robert Edmund/Edwin on their marriage certificates as well.
-
........what i did find interesting was his parents are Padwick and Padwick,.........
If you look at the original baptism record you will note that his parents are not named as Padwick and Padwick. There is only a single entry of Padwick so that the surname could, for example, be that of married parents or a single mother. In the absence of any entry in the Christian name column for parents we don't know.
Nigel
-
Hi
I don't think you really have the evidence to dismiss the Robert Bowen entry in Tothill Street because of the spelling of the surname. This is the information taken from the help guide at the top of the Rootschat London and Middlesex boards on censuses.
'In the days leading up to a census night an enumerator delivered individually numbered household schedules to each household in his district. On the morning after census night, the enumerator went round to each house and collected the forms. He had a duty to ensure that all the forms were completed properly and collected, even if this meant going back to some houses many times. In the London area with many accents, dialects and languages spoken, illiteracy and even just a lack of teeth, reading and writing the information onto the household schedules was a mammoth task for the census enumerator. Spellings can be very ‘flexible’. Once all the forms were gathered in what could then be a tired enumerator working in candlelight copied the information from them onto large sheets which were bound into volumes with a folio number stamped on the top corner of each right hand page. These volumes were then delivered to government statisticians whose job it was to extract important data about the population as a whole. In the course of this process, they often made marks and notes on the pages which can cause confusion when we try to decipher the information. The original household schedules were destroyed.'
As the Robert Bowen on the 1841 census was one of several people in that household he may not have been the person who filled in the household schedule if anyone did in the household, or the one on the doorstep going through it with the census enumerator. Based on the process one e in the surname or not isn't really relevant.
There is a James and Mary Bows, Bowe or Bown and their son James in Tothill Street. They might or might not be connected.
The Pall Mall Gazette isn't evidence that your Robert was a criminal, though in our eyes he had committed a serious crime. There is evidence that Margaret did not wish to pursue the case. If so it would have been dismissed. To be a criminal you need to be convicted of a crime. This was a period in history when violence against wives was not taken so seriously (indeed it is only a relatively recent change of view). Wives were seen pretty much as the property of their husbands. In the eyes of the establishment Robert's real crime was deserting his family and leaving them chargeable to the local ratepayers. Hence why the parish authorities were asked to attend when the case came up again.
If there was a conviction or a later or earlier conviction (though petty crime would appear in the petty sessions - the magistrates courts) then it might be worth trying to track Robert through criminal records
The National Archives help guide
Tracing 19th and 20th Century Criminals
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=120&j=1
Children as young as 8 were in employment, so by 1837 if Robert was chargeable to the local ratepayers he would have been apprenticed out and working.
Regards
Valda