RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Lancashire => England => Lancashire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Just Kia on Tuesday 06 April 10 00:15 BST (UK)
-
Martin is a brickwall of mine. [Might help if I added the surname ::) Martin WIMBUSH]
Born (before registration tut tut) c1835
I believe he is the oldest child of Samuel Wimbush and his wife Elizabeth/Betty (based on census returns).
Of course, I can't find the marriage either so have very little to go on here.
1841 census - HO107-573-B3-F37-P27 - Black Lion Court, Manchester aged 6, born in county.
1851 census - HO107-2229-F176-P31 - Long Millgate, Manchester aged 16, born Warrington(?).
But that's it. I can't for the life of me find anything else about this chap. If I didn't have him on 2 different censuses I'd be doubting his existence by now.
-
Possibly he changed his surname? Maybe he was Samuel Wimbush's stepson, so born with different surname?
1861 census, Betty Wimbush gives place of birth as Bold, Lancs.
In the same census, if you look for a Martin (no surname), born aroud 1835 in Bold, you get this one:
Martin Knight, pork butcher, born c. 1834, Bold
living with wife Anne at 27 Gt Ducie St in the Market St area of Manchester.
RG9/2950/84 Pg 26
In later censuses, Martin Knight decides he was born Farnworth, not Bold ??? and adds middle initial N, although he remains a butcher at Gt Ducie St until 1881.
:) Barbara
-
There are baptisms at Manchester Cathedral for the following, all children of Samuel and Betty Wimbush:-
William Wimbush bap 8 Jun 1838
Mary Wimbush bap 17 Jun 1841
Betsy Wimbush bap 13 Sep 1843
Betty Wimbush bap 1 Oct 1848
Samuel Wimbush bap 1 Nov 1857
Maybe the fact Martin doesn't appear lends weight to Barbara's suggestion that he was Samuel's stepson ???. Would Betty's maiden name help (from one of the other children's birth certificates)?
May be Martin's baptism has been missed out when thee records were transcribed so if you were to check the Manchester Cathedral baptism register you might find him but it means waiting awhile until Central Library has temporarily relocated as it is closed for refurbishment.
Luzzu
-
Thanks Barbara & Luzzu.
That looks very probable but also looks like it could be a rather tangled one to solve.
What I have so far now is:
1841 - HO107-573-B3-F37-P27 - Black Lion Court, 6, born in county (Martin Wimbush)
1851 - HO107-2229-F176-P31 - Long Millgate, 16, butcher, b.Warrington(?) (Martin Wimbush)
1856 - Marriage - Anne (Hutchinson or Helme) Q2 Manchester 8d 559 (Martin Knight)
1861 - RG09-2950-F84-P26 - Great Ducie St, 27, pork butcher, b.Bold (Martin Knight)
1868 - Marriage - Mary Isherwood Q2 Manchester 8d 649 (Martin Nathaniel Knight)
1871 - RG10-4044-F158-P16 - Ducie St, 36, butcher, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1881 - RG11-3992-F13-P20 - Great Ducie St, 45, pork butcher, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1891 - RG12-3265-F83-P37 - Ellesmere St, 55, baker, b.Farnsworth (Martin N Knight)
1901 - RG13-3770-F149-P5 - Ellesmere St, 65, baker, b.Farnsworth (Martin Knight)
1911 - RD467 SD1 ED29 SN120 - Ellesmere St, 75, baker, b.Warrington (Martin Nathan Knight)
He's pretty consistent with his age, and doesn't look like he moved around much at all.
Although FREEBMD doesn't have Martin Knight & Mary Isherwood on the same page, Mary's index entry is clearly 649, Martin's is unclear and looks like 619 (number of grooms doesn't match brides). However, one of Martin and Mary's daughters is Rachel Isherwood Knight on the 1911 census.
Searching the IGI I found:
Martin Nathan KNIGHT bp.28 OCT 1792, Farnworth, parents Peter Knight & Betty, C005732.
That's too much of a coincidence to be unrelated, but obviously can't be the same person.
There is also a Peter, same batch/parents bp.13 MAR 1796, Farnworth.
I can not find any Martin Knight on 1841/51 censuses.
So, as Luzzu suggests, I'll order the cert of one of the Wimbush children in the hope of getting Betty's (Samuel Wimbush's wife) maiden name.
Would it be worth ordering one of Martin's marriage certs to see who he names as his father?
-
just to add - noticed this one on Lancs OPC :
Baptisms: 15 Feb 1835 St Wilfrid, Farnworth near Prescot, Lancashire, England
Martin Nathan Knight - Son of Betsy Knight
Abode: Widnes
Occupation: Single woman
Baptised by: Wm. Jeff - Minister
Register: Baptisms 1828 - 1842, Page 95, Entry 755
Source: LDS Film 1655234 item 5
Possibly mum could be Betsy Wimbush before marriage?
The marriage Martin Knight/Ann Helme is listed on Lancashire BMDs
http://lancashirebmd.org.uk/marriages.html
as registrar attended. Catholic church marriage maybe?
:) Barbara
-
That's a good find, Barbara :D. It looks to be piecing together very nicely.
I think one of Martin's marriage certificates could give the name of the father but equally if he didn't know his father's name he could have invented one or he could have given his step-father's name as I have seen that happen before.
The Martin Knight/Mary Isherwood marriage is also on Lancashire BMD - Manchester Register Office or Register Attended.
Luzzu
-
Thank you.
This has opened up a whole new section of research. I've started a mini tree to try and figure out the Knight's of Farnham/St Wilfrids as there seems to be quite a few illegitimate births and siblings all having children/marrying around the same time period.
I've ordered the birth cert of Samuel to hopefully find Betty's mn.
-
I've arrived late to this thread! I can add one minor snippet of information that slightly strengthens the picture you've put together, which is that on the marriage cert of Betty Wimbush and Patrick Connaughton, about 1880, Betty's address is given as Gt Ducie St. I don't have the details in front of me, which probably means I should keep it to myself until I do, as my memory is far from infallible, but I won't :-) - I'll check when I get home and post any correction necessary.
In the 1871 census (RG10-4048) Betty is living with her sister Mary and brother-in-law William Davies. So it wouldn't be a surprise if at a later date she was living with a different sibling.
Just thought I should point out the obvious possibility, since no doubt it's occurred to people, but hasn't been stated anywhere yet that I can see, that Martin may actually have been Samuel's son, but because the birth occurred before the marriage he used his mother's maiden name. Of course it may not be possible to prove this one way or the other. I've read elsewhere that there may have been some legal obligation to use one's mother's maiden name in the case of an illegitimate birth, even after the parents marry, though I've no idea how reliable that retrospective legal opinion is.
If you get Samuel jnr's birth cert, I'd also be keen to know the details, if you don't mind. I've inherited a "short form" birth cert for Betty, which has hardly any interesting detail on it. Guess I should order the proper one.
Wonder how Martin came to change profession from butcher to baker - guess he made pork pies :). Never a candlestick-maker, though, apparently...
I hope someone can dig up a marriage record for Samuel snr and Betty snr.
Tim
-
I've now checked. Betty's marriage cert (from the church, not the GRO - I inherited the original) from her wedding of 21 Nov 1880 says she resides at 27 Great Ducie St, Manchester.
The 1881 census says that Martin Knight resides at 27 Great Ducie St, Manchester. Looks to me like the case is well enough proven, in case anyone had any doubt that Martin Wimbush and Martin Knight were one and the same person.
What I called a "short-form" birth cert for Betty actually really just looks like an acknowledgement of registration - ie I guess that when her parents registered the birth, they got that to prove that they had performed their legal duty to register.
Witnesses at the wedding were John Connaughton and Alice Davies - presumably the latter was Betty's niece, Mary's daughter.
Tim
-
Hi Tim,
Never to late to add more evidence =)
I'm still waiting on the cert.
However, after looking through the Lancs OPC site there is a baptism that fits "our" Martin - 15 Feb 1835 St Wilfrid, Farnworth, son of Betsy KNIGHT (single woman).
I'm quietly confident that Betty/Betsy is actually Betty KNIGHT bp. 11 Mar 1804 in Farnworth ((res. Bold)(Lancs PR 1761-1812 P121 E2/St Wilfrid (now St Luke))), illegitimate daughter of Mary KNIGHT.
And that Mary had at least one other child, Robert bp. 1805. Also that Mary probably died 1809, burial record Feb 1809 Mary KNIGHT, at St Wilfrid, res. Bold.
I haven't had chance to go and try to untangle the KNIGHT entries for St Wilfrid as yet.
I think Martin Nathan KNIGHT bp.1792 is probably a sibling to Mary (Betty's mother).
Peter KNIGHT (bp. 1796 & sibling to MNK 1792) has a child MNK bp. 1855.
I think Mary probably fits in c1789-1793, although I can't see a baptism.
OK, that's a lot of speculation and not a lot of hard evidence
-
Samuel's birth cert arrived.
His mother is Betty Wimbush formerly KNIGHT - so that confirms that part of the theory.
-
Hi just joined rootschat have been doing my family tree Davies-Wimbush and was interested to hear about Martin-not got him down. William married to Mary Wimbush is my great grandfather and grandmother. Any info appreciated
Moston
-
Hi Moston, good to make your acquaintance. Looks like we're cousins, albeit somewhat distant. Betty (Mary's younger sister) is my great great grandmother.
Since you haven't made your three-post quota yet you can't PM, unless I'm mistaken, so feel free to ask more questions here. How much do you know about Mary's family? Her father Samuel was a pork butcher, born in Wolverhampton as best I can find out - spent his professional butchering years at Black Lion Court, Long Millgate, Manchester. From what I've read, there were pig enclosures out in the street all along Long Millgate at that time, so presumably he just had to walk out his front door to procure his livestock. He died in 1859 of heart problems (at least that's the result of my attempt to decipher the terminology used on his death cert, I don't have it in front of me and don't recall the precise terms used), which is of course the only way a good pork butcher should go.
JustKia has identified Samuel's wife Betty (aka Betsy aka Elizabeth) Knight above.
I'd be interested in hearing about William and Mary's family - I haven't looked very hard to learn much there, on the assumption that looking for Davies's is going to be hard work as it's a common name (unlike Wimbush). Betty's husband Patrick Connaughton moved to Salford/Manchester from Wrexham, Wales, so when I see the name Davies I immediately wonder whether there is some other connection there, but I don't know any details.
Tim
-
Hello Tim As far as I can get back to which is the 1780's there is no connection to Wales. They were all born in Manchester. I have had a hell of a job tracing the Davies's not having had much to go on and the fact that Davies is a very common name. I have cross referenced them as far as I can and I am satisfied that I have got the correct line. I am mov ing forward now to trace them in Vancouver Canada, it may take some time but I will keep you informed
Moston
-
I have a scavenger hunt coming up to try and find out about Samuel (b c1800).
I figured that Tim and Moston may be interested in this as they both descend from Samuel.
-
Hi Kia and Tim I have concentrated on the Davies connection to the Wimbushes Which is via William Davies married to Mary Wimbush 1841 Mary's parents are Samuel and Elisabeth Wimbush. Her siblings are Martin 1835, Samuel 1844 and Betty 1849. Mary's children are Alice 1864, Rose 1869, William1871 and Herbert 1878. Herbert is my Grandfather and he emigrated to Canada with his wife Henrietta Litchfield 1877 and some children Doris1904 , Leslie 1906, Hilda1911, Wilfrid1912. in 1930. My father Herbert 1917 was left in England and was killed in WW2. I knew nothing of the family until I started tracing the family tree. I can go back another two generations on the Davies side and forward two generations of the Davies side in Canada, although this is still being researched. I am trying to make contact with any living relatives there. Betty Wimbush1849 married Patrick Connaughton1852 and had Patrick 1881, John 1883, Herbert1885 Edward1888 and Michael1890. Patrick 1881 married Mary Hannah Dalton. Samuel Wimbush1844 married Alice and had five children. I have more information on these. ( not a lot) Moston
-
Hi Moston, I've got pretty much most of the data (not much personal stuff) on Samuel and Betty forwards of 1841. It's Samuel Wimbush (c1800) back from 1841 that's the question.
-
I'll look forward to the Scavenger Hunt, thanks, JustKia.
Moston, if you were interested in more info about Betty Wimbush 1849, Patrick Connaughton and descendants I can certainly provide quite a lot for many (but not all) branches, just let me know. I was just in Canada the other day, could have had a look for some Davies's if I'd known :).
Tim
-
Scavenger hunt is here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,465076.0.html