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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Maurine on Friday 02 April 10 21:45 BST (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone please indentify the badge on my grandfather's lapel? I do not know if it is a military badge or civilian but thought I would try this link first. The photograph was taken in 1916 when he was about 50 years old. He was living in Manor Park, Essex at the time . Hoping that someone will be able to help me as he is my solid brick wall!!
Maurine
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19th (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment. - St.Pancras
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8th Battalion, London Regiment - this was the Post Office Bn.
Both had a badge as worn by your man
I'm sure both of these were TA Bn's formed in 1908 (had thought Boer War but the 19th were Middlesex regt then, with different badge.)
Due to his age, the date photo taken, and the formation date of both units, I suspect he has a son serving in one of those units? he's a bit old for the TA, and he's not in uniform, so possibly he had no military service himself.
Pete.
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Hi Pete
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately it hasn't helped me a great deal because if the badge wasn't his then I don't know who's it was. He was with my Grandmother from about 1904 and his life before that is a complete mystery. So it seems that the brick wall stands for a bit longer. Thanks anyway for the information at least I now know what the badge is for.
Maurine
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Well, no-one said it has to be easy all the time!
If you post his name, we can look at the WW1 medal rolls for that name in either of the two battalions.
I'm thinking that he had a son from a previous marriage, if so the medal roll might give us a start,
It would be great if he had a really unusual surname please!!
Pete
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Sorry, just spotted the J.Johnston tag on the image.
Will have a look at the NA site and see if it helps.
Pete
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Thousands of Johnstons.....
But could find only one for either 8th or 19th Battalions.
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=549631
Unfortunately it does not give his next of kin details, so at this stage we have no way of knowing if they are related.
I have assumed your grandad wasnt Scottish, or from anywhere other than London area.
The medal cards arent much help, they list only 4 Johnstons for the London Regiment, none of which look likely. it does suggest, though, that if he had a son, whose surname was Johnston, in the London regiment, then that son did not survive, hence my feeling its the lad above.
Also, the badges for the 8th & 19th Bn's are very similar, but the laurel wreath on the 8th badge continues right to the crown, whereas on the 19th badge it stops a little short - your mans badge looks more like 19th Bn to me.
Sorry thats all a bit vague, if we had nok details for F Johnston we would be on more solid ground.
Regards
Pete
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Hi Maurine
From his age it would be worth checking the records for men discharged 1883 to 1900 that are now online on Fimdmypast.
Ken
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Hi Ken,
For my original post, I suggested a Boer War service - this was based on a matching badge appearing on the Lest We Forget site, with the title Boer War badge of the 19th (St Pancras) Bn, London Regiment.
When I tried to cross reference it I found the badge was for the 19th (County of London) Bn., London Regiment (St.Pancras), but this Battalion wasnt formed until 1908.
I cant find any reference to either on the Boer War database i use, but tbh its not a period I look at often.
If there was a definitive 'Cap Badges of the British Army' book I would buy a copy, as the net is sometimes contradictory!
Regards
Pete
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The F Johnston on CWGC is Frank Johnston, 5896 and 612222, 19th Londons.
He was formerly 14836 KRRC. Although he was Killed in Action, 15th Sept 1916, he appears to have been given a 1917 six-digit number, which is not uncommon. He did not go overseas until after his transfer to the Londons.
He was born Camberwell and enlisted and resided in Kilburn.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
I dont suppose his service history survived ? If so, would it show his NOK?
I dont know its this chap, just that he was 19th, and the J.Johnston is wearing a 19th cap badge, and I cant see any other Johnstons on the 19th as casualties.
My rationale is that he would not have had the 14/15 Star if he went abroad after changing units, and if he was killed in action he would not have been awarded the two victory medals, hence he shows up on cwgc but not on the medal rolls.
I accept theres lots of other variables, and not enough positive info, but like a challenge!
Regards
Pete
Ps Did you get the info from findmypast - he shows up on there but I dont have a subscription so dont know what info it gives.
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Hi Pete,Phil & Ken
Many thanks for all your help in this query. I don't know how you find out all these details but am sooo! glad you do. As I have said James Johnston is my brick wall and although he was my grandfather, he died in 1923 and I never heard any mention of him while my father and grandmother were alive. All the information I have on him is contradictary as to his age. The paper work that I have is his marriage certificate to my grandmother which says he was 35,that was in 1916 after three children. The 1911 census which says he was 42 and his death certificate on which he is 57. It has always seemed strange that on the 1901 census my grandmother was at home with her family in Ilford,Essex but in 1905 she was with James in Laindon,Essex having their first child. My father's name was William Charles Frank but he was born in 1913 so not named for a previous F Johnston. My uncle was named Horace Stanley Lorraine Johnston and the rumour is that the Lorraine was because someone in the family was killed at the battle of Lorraine but I haven't been able to find out if this is fact or fiction. I am not sure if any of this waffle is of use to anyone but I thought it might give some background to what I know about James.
Thanks again to everyone who has replied and I look forward to hearing from you again soon.
Maurine
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Pete,
He does have a medal index card: British War and Victory Medals only. Nothing under the KRRC number, so I assume went overseas 1916 and with the 19th.
I can't find a service record for him.
I got the info from SDGW (real version).
If I had a subscription to FindMyPast, I would have the service records for my 3 Gattons by now. :D
I guess that we are all thinking along the same lines; J Johnson is wearing the badge in memoriam.
Phil
PS Just caught your post Maurine
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Hi Phil
I do have a subscription for FindMyPast. What do I look for?
Maurine
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Hello Maurine,
I don't know what Pete found.
I would guess, to start with,, go to Military search, type in Frank Johnston, select WW1 and then plough through all the hits.
Phil
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Spot on Phil,
The Frank Johnston we are interested in is obvious in the list (of about 7).
I have some difficulty in believing that the guy in the photo is only 35, I'd have put at least another 10 years on him.
Again, only coincidence, but one of your dads middle names is Frank, if this is the correct direction we're heading in, wouldnt surprise me if your great Grandad was called Frank.....
Cheers
Pete