RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Red rover on Friday 02 April 10 00:16 BST (UK)
-
This is my first posting, so please excuse any accidental rule-breaking.
I'd appreciate any help in finding the parents of my ggg grandfather William Cross and anything about his wife Hannah.
1851 census shows family living at 10, Cross Street, St. James, Westminster, Middlesex, and lists:
Wm. Cross, Head, Marr, 50, Boot Closer, Born Middlesex, St. James.
Hannh. Do, Wife, 40, Born Middlesex, St. James.
Matilda Do, Dau, 13, Born Middlesex, St. James.
Albert Do, Son, 10, Born Middlesex, St. James. (Albert Joseph on birth certificate)
Robt. Do, Son, 8, Born Middlesex, St. James.
Charles Do, Son, 4, Born Middlesex, St. James.
1841 census shows wife is Harriet, but birth certificates indicate that this should be Hannah.
-
Hi and welcome to Rootschat
1841 census shows wife is Harriet, but birth certificates indicate that this should be Hannah
What is Hannah's maiden name on the birth certs
From the IGI at http://www.rootschat.com/links/0bq/
MATILDA CROSS Birth: 23 JUL 1837 Christening: 22 JUL 1838 Saint James, Westminster Father: WILLIAM CROSS Mother: ANN
CHARLES CROSS Birth: 28 NOV 1845 Christening: 23 MAY 1847 Saint Luke, Westminster Father: WILLIAM CROSS Mother: HANNAH
ROBERT JAMES CROSS Birth: 08 JUL 1843 Christening: 23 MAY 1847 Saint Luke, Westminster Father: WILLIAM CROSS Mother: HANNAH
Nothing for Albert
-
Some of the earlier children
St James Westminster
1825 May 1, William Matthias, s/o William & Hanna CROSS, abode unreadable, born Oct 9
1828 Jun 8, Edward John, s/o William & Hannah CROSS, Walters Ct??, Bootcloser, born 1826 Oct
1829 Sep 20, Emma, d/o William & Hannah CROSS, abode unreadable, Bootmaker, born Apr 26
Ian C
-
Thanks for the replies.
Hannah Cross's maiden name was Moody, born about 1811 St. James Westminster. Died : 1856 (Ref. FreeBMD) or 1868
-
Hannah Moody & William Cross married by banns 11.1.1824 at St Paul Shadwell which would rule out a birthyear of 1811
Both are shown as "of this parish" and witnesses were W Gillott, what looks like Truth scholar but may be Truth or Ruth Scholey & Ian Thurley
-
CaroleW,
Thanks for the marriage details, that's filled a gap in my family history. Can I quote a reference for it?
Regarding Hannah Moody's birth year, the 1841 census shows William Cross's wife as Harriett, age 35 (i.e. 35 to 39, due to rounding down to the nearest 5 years), so born 1802 to 1806.
The 1841 census shows an eldest daughter Matilda, age 3, so born about 1838. Matilda's birth certificate shows Hannah Moody as her mother, same goes for son Albert Joseph, born 18 Dec 1840. There is a Hannah age 8 in the 1841 census who doesn't appeat again (neither does Harriett).
My thoughts are that Harriett is a mistake and should have been Hannah, born 1802-1806. That would tie in with the eldest child, William Mathias Cross born 1825, and William=Hannah's marriage in 1824.
I'm now seeking William Cross and Hannah Moody's parents' details.
Ron C.
-
Can I quote a reference for it
Marriages before 1837 do not have GRO references
-
Is the information from the actual parish register, a CD, or should I just put Rootschat Forum?
I'm still looking for William Cross and Hannah Moody's birth/baptism details, in addition to their parents.
Regards,
Ron C.
-
It's from the original parish register
-
Some of the earlier children
St James Westminster
1825 May 1, William Matthias, s/o William & Hanna CROSS, abode unreadable, born Oct 9
1828 Jun 8, Edward John, s/o William & Hannah CROSS, Walters Ct??, Bootcloser, born 1826 Oct
1829 Sep 20, Emma, d/o William & Hannah CROSS, abode unreadable, Bootmaker, born Apr 26
Ian C
Thanks for that information, Ian, just a few points:
For each of the three entries, there are two dates, I presume that the first is baptism date and the second the birth date.
It's unfortunate that the addresses aren't known, as it would be interesting to find out when William and Hannah Cross moved from Shadwell to Westminster. Any idea where Walters Court was, I can't find it?
Finally, please can you tell me what I can quote in my records as the source of your info. (e.g. original parish register, CD etc)?
-
I've found William Cross b.1796 St Paul, Shadwell on the ParishRegister site but not Hannah Moody.
Please can anyone find William Cross and/or Hannah Moody born St James, Westminster around 1795-1806? All their children, the first of which was William Matthias Cross b.1825, were born there.
-
Hi
As the parents were living in St James Westminster in 1851 they may have just chosen to give that as their birthplace. The 1861 census doesn't help as they just state London but there is this entry in 1871. Is it Hannah?
1871 census RG10 142 folio 34
5 Bentinck Street St James Westminster
Hannah Cross 68 Widow Laundress Shoreditch Middlesex
Possibility
HANNAH MOODY
Birth: 05 JUL 1803
Christening: 24 JUL 1803 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: THOMAS MOODY
Mother: HANNAH
St James Westminster is covered on the IGI. You search specific parishes on the IGI through Hugh Wallis' wesbite though it isn't totally up to date for newer additions.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/
Regards
Valda
-
Re: Walter Court - Shadwell
Have a 1930's A-Z and no Walter Court in there - but there are the following 2 Walter Streets
1: Off Bethnal Green Road, near to Meath Gardens (shown as a small park) & this is close to Shadwell
2: Close to Bow Creek, Off Barking Road & Victoria Dock Road, this is Canning Town.
My best bet would be that Walter Court was near to or was at one time no 1.
-
Thanks for that information, Valda. The birth details for Hannah sound right. Your explanation of why William and Hannah Cross may have chosen to give Westminster as the family's birth place in the census seems quite likely.
Regarding Hannah Cross in the 1871 census, that may well be William's widow, I hadn't come across that entry before. Incidentally, Bentinck Street is mentioned in the Sherlock Holmes story The Final Problem.
Thanks also for the tip about searching individual parishes on the IGI via Hugh Wallis' site.
Plummiegirl,
The Walter St. (near Meath Gardens) connection ties in nicely with Shadwell, but the birth record for Edward John Cross (b. 1825), which shows the abode as Walters Ct?? is for St. James, Westminster, which I don't think is near Shadwell.
What I'm having trouble with now, are death dates for William and Hannah Cross.
William (b. Shadwell 1796) appears in the 1851 census but not the 1861. There is a William Cross in the 1861 census (ref. Find My Past), but he's a coal dealer born in Lancashire and his wife is Elizabeth. So his death date appears to be between 1851 and 1861.
Following up Velda's discovery of Hannah Cross (b. 1803, St. Leonards, Shoreditch, maiden name Moody) in the 1871 census, I've found her in the 1881 census living at 10, Sherwood St, St James Westminster, with Edwin McGeorge's family:
CROSS, Hannah, Aunt (of head), Widow, F, 77, 1804, No Occupation, Shoreditch, North Green. There is a Hannah Cross in the 1891 census, but not my mine.
So the implication is that she died between 1881 and 1891.
-
Hi
Edwin McGeorge born Somerset and his wife born Northamptonshire and their children are at 10 Sherwood Place St James Westminster in 1881. They are at the bottom of the page with a line slashed indicating the end of their household. The last two lines at the bottom of the page are left blank. The next page has two people living at the same house but not the same household.
Elizabeth J Cross 44 Stepmother Widow Waistcoatmaker Falmouth Cornwall
Hannah Cross 77 Aunt (something else crossed through) Widow no occupation Shoreditch Middlesex
RG11 127 folio 59
There is a marriage for a Frederick Cross Widower aged 45 a bootcloser to an Elizabeth Jane Potter spinster aged 36 whose father William James Potter was a sailor. The marriage took place 30th June 1872 at St Bartholomew Moor Lane in the City of London. They were both of 11 Shilton? Street. The witnesses were Vincent Hyde Mose and Louisa Mose.
There is a death registered in Westminster in 1880 for a Frederick Cross aged 54 and there is an Elizabeth J Potter found on earlier censuses but 5 years older (not with a father) born Falmouth.
1851 Elizabeth J niece aged 18
On the marriage Frederick states his father was Robert Cross a bootcloser
Marriages Sep 1871
Cross Louisa London C. 1c 45
MOSE Vincent Hyde London C 1c 45
Vincent and Louisa married at the same church as Frederick on 20th August 1871. Louisa was a 26 year old spinster. Her father was Robert Cross bootcloser. Their address was Shilton? Street.
On the 1861 census there is this family
RG9 60 folio
24 Great Windmill Street St James Westminster
Frederic Cross 36 Head Married Bootcloser St James Westminster
Elizabeth Cross 27 Wife Married Falmouth Cornwall
Emily Cross 12 Daughter St James Westminster
Louisa Cross 10 Daughter St James Westminster
1841 census HO107 735/7 folio 29
Brewer Street St James Westminster
Robert Cross 40 Boot maker
Eliza Cross 40
Frederick Cross 16
Henry Cross 11
Thomas Cross 9
George Cross 7
Robert Cross 5
Eliza Cross 3
James Cross 1
all born Middlesex - Robert neither a yes or no
1851 census HO107 1483 folio 123
2 New Street St James Westminster, Middlesex
Robert Cross 47 Head Married Boot cleaner Marylebone Middlesex
Elizabeth Cross 39 Wife Married Shoreditch
Henry Cross 20 Son Bootmaker Shoman St Giles
Thomas Cross 17 Son Bootmaker Shopman St James
George Cross 15 Son Greengrocer errand boy St James
Robbert Cross 14 Boot closer St James
Eliza Cross 12 Daughter St James
Louisa Cross 6 Daughter St James
Andrew Cross 4 Son St James Son St James
Elizabeth Cross 2 Daughter St James
Edwin Cross 6 Son St James
Bishop Transcript (copy of the marriage register not the register itself)
18 Apr 1825 St James, Piccadilly, Westminster
Robert Cross
Elizabeth Bay Moody
Married by banns, both signed
Witnesses Mary Moody her mark and ?
ELISABETH BUY MOODY
Birth: 06 SEP 1807
Christening: 27 DEC 1807 Saint Leonards, Shoreditch, London
Father: THOMAS MOODY
Mother: MARY
There are two potential baptisms for a Robert Cross in Marylebone on the IGI (which is not a complete index)
One in 1804 parents Robert and Mary and one in 1806 parents William and Mary. There isn't a baptism showing for either set of parents for a son William circa 1801 (from William's age shown on the 1851 census with what might now be a correctish birthplace - one in that generally area.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda,
Wow, there's plenty there to keep me busy!
I downloaded the image and transcript for Hannah Cross (RG11 Piece: 127 Folio: 58
Page: 30) but only the transcript showed Hannah's details, lumped together with the McGeorge family. I contacted FindMyPast.com about it and they sent me the second page. I don't understand the Relation to head entry on the image, the first two entries are, as you say,
Elizabeth J Cross 44 Stepmother Widow Waistcoatmaker Falmouth Cornwall
Hannah Cross 77 Aunt (something else crossed through) Widow no occupation Shoreditch Middlesex,
but no head is stated. Any ideas?
Regards,
-
Hi
Just a mess up by the enumerator. This is what is given about the census process in the guide at the top of the board to censuses.
'In the days leading up to a census night an enumerator delivered individually numbered household schedules to each household in his district. On the morning after census night, the enumerator went round to each house and collected the forms. He had a duty to ensure that all the forms were completed properly and collected, even if this meant going back to some houses many times. In the London area with many accents, dialects and languages spoken, illiteracy and even just a lack of teeth, reading and writing the information onto the household schedules was a mammoth task for the census enumerator. Spellings can be very ‘flexible’. Once all the forms were gathered in what could then be a tired enumerator working in candlelight copied the information from them onto large sheets which were bound into volumes with a folio number stamped on the top corner of each right hand page. These volumes were then delivered to government statisticians whose job it was to extract important data about the population as a whole. In the course of this process, they often made marks and notes on the pages which can cause confusion when we try to decipher the information. The original household schedules were destroyed'
The census enumerator had to do the best he could with what was written.
It is likely the two women had a household together. Hannah was the aunt and Elizabeth was a niece by marriage. The term 'in law' was interchangeable with 'step'.
Regards
Valda
-
The current situation regarding my early family (Cross branch) is:
JOHN CROSS (b. 1775) and ANN (b. 1776) both Ref. Parishregister.com, St Paul Shadwell, 1775 to 1812 and IGI,
parents of
WILLIAM CROSS b. 1796 Shadwell, Middx, ref. parishregister.com, St Paul Shadwell, 1775-1812.
Thomas Moody and Hannah (no further details known yet) parents of (Ref IGI).
HANNAH MOODY b. 5 July, 1803, christened 24 July 1803, St Leonards, Shoreditch, London, Ref. IGI.
William married HANNAH 11.1.1824.ref. Rootschat forum, information from St Paul, Shadwell parish records.
William and Hannah's names from son Albert Joseph Cross' birth certificate (Westminster, 1840).
William and Hannah parents of
WILLIAM MATHIAS CROSS b. 9th Oct 1824. Christened 1st May 1825, St James, Westminster. ref IGI.
who married (1st Sept 1845, ref. marriage certificate)
DEBORAH ALLEN b. 1822 ref 1851 census. (christened 13 May 1821 Newchurch, Hampshire (I.O.W.), IGI)
W.M.C. and Deborah parents of
ALFRED THOMAS CROSS b. 1849
who married (17th April 1871, ref. marriage certificate)
ELLEN MARIA MASON b. 1854 FindMyPast 1881 census
they were parents of
ALFRED THOMAS CROSS (same name as his father) b. 23rd February 1872, St. James, Middlesex (ref. birth certificate)
who married 14th Feb. 1891 St. Pauls, Bow Common, London (ref. marriage certificate)
EMMA JANE JONES b. 10th Oct 1870 26, Blair Street, Bromley, Middlesex (ref. birth certificate).
The above couple were my paternal grandparents.
HOWEVER, I'm not 100% convinced that William Cross (b.1796 Shadwell, Middx.) and wife Hannah were my ancestors and moved to Westminster, but in the absence of information to the contrary, I will have to accept the suggestion of Valda's, i.e., As the parents were living in St James Westminster in 1851 they may have just chosen to give that as their birthplace. (See post 11).
I would be grateful for any further information which clarifies the Shadwell (or Westminster) connection.
Regards,
Red.
-
Hi
William Cross' age on the 1851 census gives his birth year as circa 1800/01. You have to do quite a bit of 'shoe horning' to get the baptism in Shadwell in 1794, 6 years earlier to fit. Have you any evidence to say the 1851 census age was incorrect?
By tradition marriages take place in the bride's parish. Calling banns was an expensive business and often one of the couple would move for the three weeks residency needed before the marriage to avoid the cost of paying to have the banns called in two churches. The evidence definitely shows Hannah came from the 'east end'. There is absolutely no evidence as yet that William did.
On the 1851 census William gives Westminster as his birthplace. Robert Cross' birthplace is given as Marylebone circa 1804. The evidence therefore points (but not proven) that the Crosses came from the Westminster/Marylebone area. The likely baptism on the IGI for Robert either places him as a son of Robert and Mary or possibly William and Mary. Marylebone baptisms are on the IGI, fewer Westminster parishes are covered by the IGI.
Are you now eliminating the evidence of the connection of Robert Cross his parentage and marriage to Elizabeth Bay Moody? Do you now think there is no connection between Robert and William, or if there was not one of brothers despite that both were Bootmakers?
Regards
Valda
-
[quote author=CaroleW link=topic=447966.msg3103757#msg310
Both are shown as "of this parish" and witnesses were W Gillott, what looks like Truth scholar but may be Truth or Ruth Scholey & Ian Thurley
Having found that one of the witnesses to my gt gt gt grandparent's marriage. James Heath to Elizabeth Flint, in 1832 at St Paul's Shadwell, London was a "Truth Scholey", the above post came up when I did a search on the name, it being rather unusual.
Truth was a schoolmaster in Shadwell and was married at least twice first to Elizabeth then Susannah. He appears numerous times as a witness to marriages at St Paul's over quite a long period and Probate of his will shows that he had been the Parish Clerk