RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Other Countries => Topic started by: Poozan on Tuesday 30 March 10 18:22 BST (UK)
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How do I find a marriage certificate for a marriage in Singapore in 1875? I have a copy of the entry in the register of Singapore Cathedral but I had hoped for more information than one finds there.
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The Singapore marriage registers for that period are held by National Archives of Singapore. You could try emailing them - see http://www.a2o.com.sg/a2o/public/html/contact.jsp
You could try searching for your relatives names in the National Library of Singapore online newspaper database - use " " to search for precise phrases http://newspapers.nl.sg/ - there may be a marriage announcement or report.
If the marriage appears in the UK overseas marriage indices then you can apply for a certificate from the UK authorities in the normal way.
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Thank you for your help. I have emailed the Archives in Singapore and await their reply.
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Sorry but the link you gave me didn't work. Can you suggest something else please?
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Sorry but the link you gave me didn't work
Do you mean the email address for NAS ? or the newspapers at NLB ?
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The email address for NAS - sorry to be dim!
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Clicking on that link should have created an email form with two addresses in the address box. Did both fail?
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It didn't create an email form but I found an email address and have sent off an email. I am muddled as to how I can access their marriage. How can I check that their marriage is recorded in the UK overseas marriage index?
By the way, thank you very much for helping me. I feel so ignorant about these things.
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I have sent you a PM re the contact email addresses at NAS.
If you post the names of the parties involved in that 1875 marriage I will check the UK overseas indexes for you. They are available on various subscription services (such as TheGenealogist, FindMyPast)
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You are so kind. The naames are Thomas Cuthbertson and Margaret Maxwell Anderson. The date is November 9th 1875
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No luck in the overseas marriage indexes I'm afraid.
I found in the Straits Times:
- the announcement of the birth of a daughter in 1883 (your grandmother?) http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c2/
- a marriage in London in 1909 - http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c4/
- the death of a son in 1920 http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c1/
- a reference to Thomas's estate in 1928 http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c3/
There are lots of other references to his business etc activities which you may have found already
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Aha ! Found the register entry for the 2nd marriage in Marylebone in 1909 - Thomas Cuthbertson widower aged 61 Merchant, 65 Harley House, father Thomas Cuthbertson, commission agent deceased - to Magdalene Lowe Reid, 36 spinster 74 Harley House, father David Reid deceased, merchant
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You are brilliant!!!!! :) :) :)
We always knew that he had married again but didn't know who. Reid was a family name for the Cuthbertsons so I will look for David Reid who may have been Thomas's maternal Uncle. The birth in 1883 was indeed my grandmother, it's a shame her other 3 siblings born in Singapore don't get a mention. The date of the son's death is helpful, I will get a copy of his death certificate in due course. He was the only child to have been born in Scotland, I discovered the date of his parent's marriage through his birth registry entry. Splendid Scotland puts that information on birth register entries as I am sure you know.
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I have clicked on all the links you gave me and typed the information onto a Word Document. I have learned a lot thanks to you. We always knew that he had made money through rubber but not how much. Wow!!!
I don't suppose you have time to look up his brother John Reid Cuthbertson who suceeded him as general manager of Bousted & co in Singapore. He had a son William Reid Dougal Cuthbertson who was also born in Singapore in 1887.
I can't say thank you enough, I am such a beginner at all this family research, you are the second person that has helped me through Rootschat.
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Hmm ...John Reid Cuthbertson
A handy summary of his bequests http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c7/
(final item)
Marriage of son William to Ruby Maidment (final item)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/08c8/
40+ other references for "J R Cuthbertson" - it's probably easier for you to search for yourself on http://newspapers.nl.sg/
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The witnesses to that 1909 marriage were David George Alexander Reid, J R Cuthbertson, Thos Cuthbertson jun and another person whose name I cannot fathom from the signature.
I have been trying to post a 19kb image of that unknown signature but I just get error messages saying "the upload folder is full".
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Thanks for the link to the paper. I found 309 references to Cuthbertson and am working my way through them. I was hoping I might find the name of J R Cuthbertson's wife. Since I have no record of William, her son, his birth but only the year, 1887(from IGI) I don't know her name.
I have ordered the marriage certificate Cuthbertson-Reid and will see if I can make out the final witness' signature.
Again, many thanks for your help and interest.
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See http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=REG&db=zzithoms&id=I170
"Ruby Maude MAIDMENT (Isabella Jane SHREWSBURY4, Eliza Francis WARD3, Bridget BUCKLEY2, Patrick BUCKLEY1) was born 3 APR 1885 in Rangoon,Burma, was christened 6 MAY 1885 in CHRIST CHURCH,RANGOON, and died 1975 in Sussex,England. She married William Reid Dougal CUTHBERTSON 18 JUN 1910 in St Peters,Piccadilly, son of John Reid CUTHBERTSON and Marion Fullarton ANDERSON. He was born 1887 in Singapore, and died 1979 in San Francisco,USA."
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Wow! I am gobsmacked!!! Can one get such accurate far-reaching family information about all one's ancestors? I have downloaded the information from the link you sent me and will gradually put it on my software.
I would love to know why Ruby Maidment died in the UK and William Cuthbertson in San Francisco. I have 2 photographs of their daughter Jill's wedding in 1932, this one showing some men in uniform. We think it must have taken place in California but can't recognise the uniforms.
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Jill M Cuthbertson married Flying Officer Joseph Seymour Tanner in London in 1933. I think the chaps in uniform will be a guard of honour of fellow RAF officers.
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You know everything! Thanks again. I will get hold of the marriage certificate for fine tuning. My great uncle in the photograph was only 53 at the time of the wedding, he looks a lot older I think. His wife was 62!
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You have been so helpful, may I ask for one more piece of advice. I think it is possible that Margaret Maxwell Anderson who married Thomas Cuthbertson in 1875 and Marion Fullarton Anderson who married his brother John Reid Cuthbertson, presumably also in Singapore since their son was born there, may have been sisters. There is a witness signature on the 1875 marriage which could read Marion. Is there anywhere I could go which would help to prove this theory?
Sorry to bother you again.
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Both John and Thomas Cuthbertson attended the wedding of a John Anderson in London in 1901, at which Tom Cuthbertson junior was best man. John Anderson was 48 and a recent member of the Straits Settlements Legislative Council. It seems likely that he was related to Margaret and Marion, perhaps a brother.
See http://www.rootschat.com/links/08d7/
The marriage register page is in Ancestry's London Marriages. John Anderson's father had the same name, was deceased by then, and was a master mariner and civil servant.
Incidentally Marion's middle name was Fullerton and not Fullarton ( Wills and Bequests, The Times 15 September 1933 page 15)
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Margaret Maxwell Anderson was the "third surviving daughter of the late John Anderson" http://www.rootschat.com/links/08d9/
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They were indeed sisters - see this 1933 obit http://www.rootschat.com/links/08db/ "A Straits Hostess"
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John Anderson was indeed the brother of Margaret and Marion. He was, with his sister Marion and his mother Janet, a witness at the 1875 wedding and I mistakenly thought the signature was that of his father.
1. As usual you have given me so much information that my head is reeling. Is there any way that these items from the Singapore paper can be saved onto my computer so that I can digest them at leisure?
2. How do I go about looking up Marion in Wills and Bequests, the Times 1933 page 15 please?
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I have actually got my head together and looked up FAQ on the paper website. Now I know what to do if I want a copy of the article.
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There is another way to save the articles to your computer, which would be to print the page to a PDF file. You might need to install some software such as CutePDF Writer in order to do this.
There is some information on the Andersons in this article http://www.rootschat.com/links/08dd/
For the Times archives you will need to be able to access either The Times Digital Archive ( many UK county libraries provide free online access to this to members) or the TimesOnline archive which is a subscription service http://archive.timesonline.co.uk/tol/archive/
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The article about the Andersons father and son makes fascinating reading. You suggested printing so I tried using the link that said 'share' under the Page Thumbnail and it printed the article about Mrs John Cuthbertson without a murmer and big enough for me to read as well!!!!! As you can see I am absolutely delighted. I shall try printing some of the other information in the same way.
What does the CutePDF Writer do please?
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I would love to know why Ruby Maidment died in the UK and William Cuthbertson in San Francisco.
Well, it's four years since this questions was posted, but my brother emailed me yesterday and said "you wouldn't believe what comes up when you google "William Reid Dougal Cuthbertson" (our grandfather) and I found this thread!
I know EXACTLY why William Cuthbertson died in San Francisco (Marin County, actually, a little north of SF, and I was with him in hospital three days before his death) while his (ex) wife died in Sussex. And that's the key - they were separated for many many years, during most of which he was with our grandmother, Dorothea Hawke, a WWI widow. They had one child together, our mother, who was indeed born out of wedlock.
William (who everyone called "Cuth" but who his four grandchildren called "Popsie") and Ruby were finally able to get a no-fault divorce after WWII, by which time Cuth and Dorothy ("Dickie" to all) were living in California, and, I think, had at least one grandchild. Cuth and Dickie were immediately married, and Cuth formally adopted my mother.
But the really strange part of this story is that they did not tell her anything - not until 1975, when, at age 24, I traveled to the UK and was scheduled to meet some distant family relations. However, I came back to the US as clueless as when I left, so she was told to keep her mouth shut, even though she wanted to tell the world that Cuth was her real father (she'd been told her father had died, but her mother was widowed a couple of years before that would have been possible).
So we weren't allowed to know the truth about our real grandfather until both of them were gone, when he died in 1979. My father (who was divorced from our mother before 1975) said he always had his suspicions, looking at the two of them, but the story was so entrenched, he never said a thing.
By the way, he was an absolutely lovely person, the most gracious man you could ever hope to meet. It was an honor to have him in our lives for as many years as we did.
I hope someone reads this! I'll try to find the profile setup where I will get notified if anyone responds, or maybe there's a messaging system in this site.
Cheers,
Jan from Seattle, WA - USA
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My father, Charles Hutton, died 2001, aged 95, stayed with your grandfather in 1972 and I have a small photograph of him with a tennis racquet in his hand. Your grandfather is my first cousin twice removed, ie a first cousin of my grandmother Dorothy Cuthbertson. He is mentioned on my family website, I am surprised that it didn't come up when your brother did his google. You and I are able to get in touch by email but I can't remember how to do it! How wonderful that this thread is still on the internet.
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Hi Jan,
You'll have to post a couple more times in this thread so you can send a personal message. You can either click the icon that looks like a little sheet of paper, on the left hand side underneath the person's name, or click on their name and you should see a link saying "send PM".
Just for a little bit of additional information, in case you haven't seen these:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/K94F-6LW
- the 1940 census (if you look at the image you'll see Dorothy Hawke and her daughter in the list next to them)
Some passenger lists:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KXH4-YJV (William)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KDHT-F9F (indexed for Dorothy, but both William and Dorothy are on the passenger list)
Dorothy& daughter arrived into NY in 1946 by air!
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/24GR-JL9
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/24GR-JLQ
"NC90815", the aircraft they flew on, was a Lockheed L-049 Constellation, and you can see a photograph of her at this site (http://www.e-pics.ethz.ch/index/ethbib.bildarchiv/ETHBIB.Bildarchiv_LBS_SR02-10901_462591.html).
William was also in the 1942 WWII registration (sometimes called the "Old Man's Draft", although it was less a draft than a survey of manpower/industrial capability)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V48V-GLL
Interestingly it shows his employer as "Australian War Supplies Procurement">
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How wonderful that this thread is still on the internet.
I love the internet - and I'm not even a genealogist - but for some reason this hit in my google search caught my eye. I'm also a US tax accountant, so I shouldn't even be spending time doing this right now. I've sent a link to this conversation to my 92-year-old mother, who I hope (with my brother's help, they live down in the San Francisco area) will be able to read it on her iPad :^)
The name Charles Hutton sounds very familiar, and if your father visited Cuth in 1972, there is no doubt our mother would have met him, because she spent a great deal of time with her parents, especially during that time, when they were both in their 80s. I was away at university in 1972. The tennis racquet is because Cuth ran a tennis club in Belvedere, Marin County, just north of San Francisco. Beautiful weather much of the year, very Mediterranean. He played tennis until his mid or late 80s, I believe, so I'm not sure he still played in 1972!
Jan
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Wonderful information, Jorose! I'm not a genealogist, but I will take the time to look at all of these links when I have a chance. I shouldn't even being doing this much, as I am a tax accountant, with a due date coming up in a month - but I am thrilled by the responses from you and Poozan! How cool is this!???!
William was also in the 1942 WWII registration (sometimes called the "Old Man's Draft", although it was less a draft than a survey of manpower/industrial capability)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/V48V-GLL
Interestingly it shows his employer as "Australian War Supplies Procurement">
Yep, that sounds right, according to things I remember my mother telling me about the WarII years. She was a WREN, serving first in Washington DC, then in San Francisco where she served as the (very young) liaison and "escort" for British military VIPs visiting San Francisco. Which is how she and her parents all ended up living there.
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I am sorry I got the date wrong, it was 1962 when my parents visited your grandfather on their way back to the UK from Australia where they had been visiting me.You and I are 3rd cousins. I have 2 pages on my website www.wauchopecottage.co.uk/susan about your grandfather including a very snappy picture, attached, of him when his daughter by his first marriage got married. He looks very like my father did at that age. Get in touch when you have time.
Poozan
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I am sorry I got the date wrong, it was 1962 when my parents visited your grandfather
And I would only have been 11 years old, so no memory even if we did all visit when your parents were here.
That's such a marvelous picture of Cuth with Jill. There are still a few descendents in Australia, and someone there has entered information in Ancestry.com, which I can log into when I'm with my half-sister, the family genealogist on our father's side (we have different mothers, so she is not part of the Cuthbertson heritage).
There's a cousin who lives in Tasmania, who I have met once, and I believe they are all half-cousins to me, because we don't have the same grandmother (is that right?)(LOL)
My brother is also enjoying this information, and your web site.
I would like to continue this discussion after April 15 - Tax Day in the USA!
Jan
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Look forward to hearing from you when you have time, glad your brother is enjoying the website. Hope the tax business goes well for you
All the best Susan