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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: annie24b on Sunday 28 March 10 11:48 BST (UK)
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Could anyone tell me what uniform is in this photo please?
My mother thought it was my grandfather, but he was a merchant seaman ???
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Army private, WW1 era, post 1915 due to economy pattern tunic I think.
Pete
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thanks pete. It can't be g father then - the search continues!
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probably an odd thought, but the snake (hook/fastener) on the belt is reminiscent of the Royal Irish Constabulary trooper's uniform, maybe 1900 +/-. Check the history section of the PSNI website as it may have uniform samples.
Good luck.
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That type of belt was favoured by territorial and other pre-WW1 part-time battalions. You get more joy on the photograph dating section.
Ken
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Uniform similar to another photo on the site which has been id-ed as Royal Engineers....
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Sorry - its a pre-1915 tunic, my error.
Pete.
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Thanks all
pre 1915 would fit better if it is indeed my g father.
Trouble is, he was definitely a merchant seaman - would it have been at all possible that he could have been part time soldier? He would have been about 45 in 1914
Mal2010 - what is the PSNI please?
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Police Service Northern Ireland.
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I dont think the uniform is that of the Royal Irish Constabulary, although they were issued with a snake belt similar to that shown, albeit theirs was patent leather.
The mans tunic is that of the British army, prior to the 1915 economy tunic. There were territorial units raised in Ireland, but I dont think the merchant navy and TA woul have worked together - the TA would have weekly parades, possibly more as there was unrest in the country, i suspect they would have been more active than their English equivalent.
It was also normal for TA units to lag behind as regards kit being issued, at the outbreak of WW2 TA units were still issued with WW1 kit (and not much of that!).
Your man does tend to make think regular soldier, but thats just my gut feeling.
I use the following for RIC queries , it has some good images
http://www.royalirishconstabulary.com/
Pete
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Its a 1902 pattern tunic, and a 1914 pattern web belt.
So the photo is 1914 at the earliest. The top pockets have pleats, so its not the economy tunic, which was introduced in 1915.
His web belt looks worn, not brand new, so I'm going to go for a Private, British Army, 1914/1915 period.
Pete
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thanks Pete.
Looks like I'm never going to solve the mystery of who he is!
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You've got a baby born around 1914, and a lad of about 6 so born about 1909 - any uncles or aunts fitting that profile?
Did your grandfather have any brothers....how did you come by the photo, etc
Pete
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There is only 1 person born around 1914 - my dad's brother. I know nothing about him except his birth - he was the 'black sheep' of the family!
My dad was born 1904, if he looked young for his age I suppose the boy could be him. My g father had only sisters.
The photo was among a load I got from my mother, and she didn't know who they were - as I say, she thought the man was my grandfather, but the uniform is wrong for Navy. He does look like my dad though!
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A lot of Royal Navy lads served as infantrymen in the Great War and wore Khaki in the Royal Naval Division !
Have you got a name for your GF? to check aginst RN Records
Ady
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An ancestor of mine was in the Merchant Navy for most of his life but at the start of WW1 he volunteered for the army and did not go back to sea until late 1917, when he had been invalided out of the army.
All the best
Gobbo
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Maybe you could post your grandfathers details and a check of the NA medal card register can be made.
Naval division works for me.
Pete
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That type of belt was favoured by territorial and other pre-WW1 part-time battalions. You get more joy on the photograph dating section.
Ken
And also by the Kitchener battalions.... ;)
Although not favoured, the troops wanted rid of them as soon as, so as not to be identified as "new army"...They all clamoured for 08ptn webbing
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thanks Pete, Gobby, Ady. I'd be very grateful if someone could look it up please? Or is it available online at all?
David Robert Baxter b1869 Whitby.
Married Margaret Johnston 1904 and they lived in Sunderland
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Managed to find 1 record in medal card register for a David Robert Baxter b 1874 Whitby.
I know that my David was born 1869 - I have his birth certificate. I suppose he could have lied ::)
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Does it say what Regiment or Corps he was in - I ask this as it may help to eliminate the record, it will hopefully give dates of service etc.
Using his dob would make him 45 at commencement of the war, whereas the later dob would be 40 - I wonder what the age restrictions were for Kitcheners volunteers - if it was 40 then it is quite likely he lied in order to volunteer.
Pete
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Here we go - in May 1915 the age limit was raised to 40, so giving a dob of 1874 and using a late month ie after May, would have him just in the age range.ie under 41.
Whats the betting the record is for a man with a birth month in the second half of 1874....
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWrecruit.htm
Pete
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Many thanks Pete.
I've now bought the record, and it is indeed my grandfather!! So he did lie about his age. The address that the medals were sent to is on his son's birth certificate.
They were a Mercantile Marine Ribbon, Mercantile Marine Medal and it also says: British Medal R.N.R.T. - do you know what this was please?
At the top of the card it has 'Certif or Dis.A.' 211554
Would that be his service number, and should I be able to find more about him using this?
thanks again
Anne
Edit: re the birth date, it isn't on the card, but his real birthday was in September, so easy for him to remember should anyone ask him!
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Heres your link to (R)oyal (N)aval (R)eserve (T)rawlerman emergency Reserve
In 1917 RNR(T) emergancy reserve was set up to bring all the remaining fishermen under naval discipline. It was suddenly discovered that fish were a good supply of food and as many trawlers had been lost and fishermen taken up into the RNR(T), they needed to keep some trawlers actually catching fish!
Source of Info: Great War Forum.
Ady :)
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Hi Annie
Merchant Seaman had an official record kept of their voyages and they carried an official discharge book that also held these records. The Dis A number is his Discharge number, which was on his book, and also should help you to find him in the archives of the merchant service.
The medal card suggests that he saw all his war service either on a merchant ship or on a Royal Navy Reserve Trawler - these were used for mine sweeping and convoy protection.
All the best
Gobbo
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Does this answer the question about the photo ?
The man is wearing an army private dress, was this also supplied to the Merchant Marine or RNRT, anyone know?
Did you grandad have any brothers?
Pete
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Found this link about the Trawlermen
http://www.harry-tates.org.uk/history1.htm
Does show them in naval rig....
Pete
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Ady, Gobbo - thanks for that. I'll have to see what I can find using his discharge number then.
Pete - No, it doesn't really solve who it is in the photo. He didn't have any brothers, only sisters and I can't see anyone else who was born around that time. As you say, its the uniform thats the puzzle.
Anyway, if nothing else I found out about his war service. All I had up to then was his birth and marriage. I have searched for ages for his death - I did find one in the GRO Marine deaths overseas, but dismissed it as the age was wrong. Now that I know he lied about his age, that record fits - but now I can't remember how I found it! I remember it was 1924, age 51 and vessel Fernhill & thats it.
Never mind. I'll keep on looking!
Thanks for the Harry Tate link by the way - very interesting.
Annie
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What about the lady sitting down, could she be a sister?
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I suppose she could be, but he looks so much like my dad, I'm inclined to think it is my g father
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Hi Annie
I am guessing that the medal card you found was in the Board of Trade series for merchant service medals or possibly an Admiralty series. I have looked for him but without success in the "military" cards on Ancestry and did not find him. He may have enlisted as a soldier in 1914 or 1915 but then been discharged during his training, perhaps because of a medical problem or perhaps because they found out that he was too old. In this case he would not have been posted to a war zone and would not be eligible for any military medals. Even so he would have had a military service record: unfortunately a large proportion of these were destroyed in a fire in the 1940s and I cannot find a service (or pension) record for him.
Your best bet is to chase up his seaman's record and attempt to reconstruct the history of his voyages during WW1 - if there is any large gap that may indicate a period when he was in the army and conversely if there is no large gap then he probably was not in the army.
All the best
Gobbo
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A man discharged during WW1 due to sickeness or injury would be entitled to a Silver War Badge, whether he went overseas or not. This would be recorded on a medal card, and so should be on Ancestry.
Ken
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.... but he would not get a SWB if he was discharged because he had lied about his age on enlistment.
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Just a quick update, and an aside from the uniform identification.
I now have the death certificate from the Marine deaths overseas, and it is indeed my g father.
We were always told he died in Buenos Aries....in fact it was Hospital Bel Air, Bordeaux ::)
I'm so happy to have found him - now I need to find out where he was buried - would he have been buried abroad I wonder?
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Hi Annie
Shipping bodies home is a very modern development and I imagine that he would have been buried in Bordeaux.
All the best
Gobbo
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thanks Gobbo.
One mystery solved, another to start on :(
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http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8413400&queryType=1&resultcount=6
Hi Annie was this the Medal Card you have?
Ady :)
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Yes Ady, thats the one
Annie
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Cant see a Hospital Bel-Air, but have found an AEF hospital at Bellaire Seminary, my French Geography is poor, so not sure if its the right area.
No.28 on the attached link
http://www.worldwar1.com/dbc/basehosp.htm
Pete
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thanks pete. It also appears at No. 98 on the list.
I dont think it is in the right area, but I could be wrong.
The only Bel Air hospitals I can find are in America.
Is there a Bordeaux in USA ? Maybe I'm assuming the wrong country ???
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Hi Annie
A google search on Bordeaux bel aire should bring you to a map of Bordeaux showing a number of medical related businesses in the West of the town centre. These include "Centre d' Urologie Bel Air", which may be where your Gfather died.
All the best
Gobbo
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thanks gobbo - I'll have a look