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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: EileenBlacklock on Wednesday 24 March 10 19:09 GMT (UK)
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I have details of my G G Grandfather, Andrew Barr who was born c 1815 -1825 (ish)! I have to guess at this but the first child I have for him was John Henry, born in 1845.
Andrew came from Donnybrook and married Elizabeth Wheeler in 1844
and was a ropemaker. Apparently his father before him was also a ropemaker and it is he I am trying to find. I am afraid I don't know his name but family rumour has it he may have come from Northern Ireland. All of them were Church of Ireland.
I have looked at a few websites but I am not really sure I know how to approach this. Any suggestions gratefully received.
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So you're looking for a man named Barr born probably 1790 or earlier who might, or might not, have come from what we now know as Northern Ireland who might have been Church of Ireland but you don't have any idea of his first name?
Research in any country is difficult enough when you have a name and location but the period is before civil registration and it won't nbe any easier trying to find these details in Ireland.
Generally, to search for family details in Ireland you need to know both the family's religion and where they lived (parish if not actual townland) for pre-registration research and even with those 2 details much depends on whether or not church records might exist. Also, in this case, the surname (Barr) is an extremely common one in many areas of Ulster.
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I've the Donnybrook section of an 1848 trade directory online at : http://roots.swilson.info/towns1848/codublin1848.html
No sign that I see of any Barr families or ropemakers in the area.
The CofI parish for most of Donnybrook is St. Mary's, but watch out as there is also a separate St. Mary's parish in the city of Dublin.
Some county Dublin records are available free on http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/, but they dont include Donnybrook at the moment.
Shane
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Thanks Shane ;)
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aghadowey
All I had originally was the family lore that they were all ropemakers, lived in the north of Ireland and then moved south. I also had my g grandfather's name and age and the full names of all his children who traditionally were given both names of forebears.
We have four called Ruth Isabella in the family and one with Wheeler as a middle name. When I found Andrew living in Dublin, he had a daughter called Ruth Isabella and a wife Elizabeth whose maiden name was Wheeler and what is more, he was a ropemaker.
Given the fact that the family lore also included their affiliation with the C of I, I actually had a fair bit to go on. Tenacity appears to pay off and I am not giving up yet.
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I didn't suggest giving up but without a more exact place than 'north of Ireland' you won't be able to search for sources like church records. If the family were Church of Ireland, as is most likely, bear in mind that many C. of I. records pre-1870ish were destroyed after having being sent to Dublin for safekeeping.
You've done very well to find so much information on Andrew Barr (and yes, the family names did help in this case) but you had asked about tracing his father.
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I had a look at the full 1848 city directory for any Barr, ropemakers, but found nothing. Plenty of ropemakes in Dublin at the time that Andrew could have worked for but none named Barr. Unless Andrew ran his own business, or was relatively well off he would possibly not be listed.
In the 1868 directory there is just one Barr and a Barre listing in the index section... just in case either of these could be connected :
Mr. Alexandar Barr, 61 Clanbrassil st upr
W.V. Barre, Glasnevin
Shane
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Hi
May be of interest to know that Church of Ireland records for Donnybrook go back to 1712 and are held at the RCB Library in Dublin. These may show some of the Barrs in baptisms, marriages, etc.
Cheers
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Thanks LH, I will look into that side of things, I guess that means a visit to Dublin?
Shane, this is what I got from John's birth details from Irish Geneology.
Name JOHN HENRY BARR
Date of Birth 4 December 1845
Address 6 JAME'S STREET EAST
Father ANDREW BARR
Mother ELIZABETH
Further details in the record
Father Occupation Rope Maker
His mother was Elizabeth Wheeler as I found Andrew and Elizabeth's marriage details too.
At the time of John's birth, Andrew's address would have been 6 JAME'S STREET EAST , Dublin and he and Elizabeth married at Diocese of DUBLIN , Parish of ST. PETER'S C.of I.
I wouldn't mind betting that he might have worked for someone else and that is why they don't appear in the trade directory.
I have found four of my Scottish ancestors in trade directories but we always knew they were successful business people. Other than a tradition of ropemaking, we know nothing more the Barrs and their lives. I have to say that John's son Andrew, who was my grandfather was very well educated and was one of the first electrical engineers when electricity was still a bit of a dangerous mystery to most people! In turn, Andrews children were all bright enough and one was a high ranking soldier. Their was probably either money or brains somewhere in their ancestry
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interesting address ... listed at 6 James's St East in 1848 is a name very familiar to Irish Researchers :
General Valuation Office
Richard Griffth esq., commisioner
res. 2 Fitzwilliam place
Shane
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That IS interesting. This is where you find the listing
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/c62f250306634?name=john++barr&name2=&location=dublin&dd=&mm=&yy=1845&type=&diocese=&parish=¢ury=&decade=&sort=&pageSize=10&submit=Search
Do you know what the building is like?
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I've attached extract of an 1848 map showing the location of James's St East, below. It's located between Mount St and Baggot street and quite close to the Grand Canal. I would think quite a well-to-do area at the time..
I am not sure what the houses were like in 1845, but they were turned into tenements soon after. If they remained the same structurally then you could work out some details of the buildings from the 1911 census building returns (form B1)- see : James's St East (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/South_Dock/James_s_Street__East)
p.s. you can view the full 1848 map here : http://www.rootschat.com/links/07gy/
Shane
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Thank you so much, Shane. I think I will see if I can see it now on Google earth too.
Andrew was living with his family at 108 Baggot Street in Dublin when two of his daughters were baptised - Maria Catherine Barr in 1847 and Ruth Isabella in 1853 so they stayed in the area. We were told that they were quite wealthy and that he was made a Freeman of the city of Dublin which turned out to be wishful thinking however.
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that Baggot street address in 1848 is interesting also... Mr. Griffith again... was there some connection ?
108 and 109 Baggot St (lower)
General Valuation Office, Rd. Griffith esq., commsr.
the building is at the junction with Lad Lane
Shane
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You could well be onto something here but I have not seen a connection so far. As you know, I can't get back any further than Andrew at the moment. Here are the links so you can see them
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/24505c0336244?name=ruth+barr&name2=&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=&type=&diocese=&parish=¢ury=&decade=&sort=&pageSize=10&submit=Search
Name RUTH ISABELLA BARR
Date of Birth 20 October 1853
Address 108 LOWER BAGGOT ST
Father ANDREW BARR
Mother ELIZABETH
Further details in the record
Father Occupation Rope Maker
the next one for Maria has a different occupation for the father but I sort of thought it just an error in transcription unless you think differently?
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/db61bd0313210?name=maria+barr&name2=&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=1847&type=&diocese=&parish=¢ury=&decade=&sort=&pageSize=10&submit=Search
Name MARIA CATHERINE BARR
Date of Birth 1 December 1847
Address 108 BAGGOT ST
Father ANDREW BARR
Mother ELIZA
Further details in the record
Father Occupation Professekor
Professekor might be a badly transcribed entry from profession -cordage which I think is another name for ropemaking.
Curiouser and curiouser as Alice would say!! As if my appetite wasn't whetted enough, you have to point out this weird connection. Maybe I need to look up something about this Mr Griffith?
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I think they sometimes have used ropes, or possibly more accurately heavy strings, for measuring properties for Land Valuations etc ... maybe that was the connection ?
Shane
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That could certainly explain the perceived importance of Andrew by his descendants.
I am now running around from website to website trying to make sense of it all but your reply does make a lot of sense. Maybe he worked for Griffith?
The family rumour that he had been made a Freeman of the City was clearly just a rumour but as they say, there is no smoke without fire. This would have seemed an important job to his family and certainly Richard Griffith would have have had a very high profile.
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It seems likely that with dates and addresses in common with Valuation offices that there could be some connection.. especially as usually the address on baptisms would be where the family lived.
Richard Griffith was knighted, presumably in connection with his Valuation work, even before it was completed. He's shown in Thom's 1863 as :
Sir Richard Griffith bart., LL.D. chairman of the board of public works,
chief boundary surveyor under the Act 17 Vic c 17 and
commissioner of the Government valuations of Ireland
res. 2 Fitzwilliam place , office 2 Ely Place
just two Barr/Barre entries that year - the same details as 1848
Shane
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I was in Dublin City earlier and left through Baggot st... snapped a photo of 108/109 (see below) which looks like an old building. The overall layout seems to be the same as it was in 1911 building return.. so possibly even older than that (see 101 to 108 Baggot St Lwr - form B1 (http://census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000206801/) ) - i.e 7 windows in the front, 10-12 rooms,
All the buildings on James St. East are quite recent - mostly offices.
The door to the left of the photo is 108 Baggot Str Lower, with 109 to the right. The archway to the right is Lad Lane.
Shane
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I don't know how to thank you Shane, the photo is wonderful and I shall upload it to my family tree file straight away. I think I have to come back to Dublin now and see it all for myself. I have visited half a dozen times or so but that was for work and I didn't have any of this information then.
I owe you a drink or two!
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Hello
I believe that the Andrew Barr family are also my forebears and would like to learn more about them.My great grandmother was Eliza Barr born 3rd April 1852 whose father was Andrew Barr a ropemaker from Dublin. Her death certificate entry says so and there was a relative Maria.
Eliza married a John Ramsay in Victoria, Australia in 1872. Their first child was named Maria. My grandmother was the third child.
I have plenty of the Ramsay history but not the Barrs.
I would be grateful if you could help.
Thanking you
Mervyn
(driver 44)
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The houses in East James Street were similar in appearance to that of 108 Lr Baggot St. No6 East James Street was located on the Bank of Ireland side between where Phil Ryans pub was on the corner and where the red sculpture is now. They were demolished in the 1970's (i think). It was next door to a barbers shop.
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Yes
James St comes into the Barr family history.
It was Elizabeth Wheeler's address when she married Andrew Barr in 1844.
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Andrew and Elizabeth Barr nee Wheeler had a daughter named Elizabeth (Eliza) born April 1852. She came to Australia (Victoria possibly about 1871) where she married a John Ramsay in Melbourne early 1872.
Looking to find how, when, why she travelled to Aus. and the route taken.
Any suggestions? ???
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Other than some early surviving transportation (which I think ended c1868) records I am not aware of many travel records like this being available in Ireland, but believe that some may be available on Ancestry and other pay-websites. There are often details available at the point of arrival - so it might be an good idea to post a query on the Australian section of Rootschat for assistance in searching for records relating to Elizabeth's arrival in Australia.
Shane
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New post on Australia board as suggested by Shane-
www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=499808.new#new