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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Durham => England => Durham Lookup Requests => Topic started by: alllegs on Tuesday 22 March 05 11:32 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I would be really greatful if someone could help me out with Joseph Armory. I recieved his marriage certificate today, and there is nothing written in the boxes for his father. I rang the Durham Record Office to double check and they said it was blank on the original. Would anyone be able to have a look at the 1871 census for Willington for me to see if there is a possible match for my Joseph.
From his marriage certificate I know he was married in Durham Registry Office on January 19th 1878. He was 20 years old so I anticipate a birth year of 1858 (ish). He married Mary Jane Dixon. They both lived in Willington at the time of the marriage and his was a cartwright.
Any help with Joseph would be fantastic.
Thank you in anticipation
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
on the Durham BMD site
http://www.durham.gov.uk/DurhamCC/usp.nsf/pws/Registrar+-+purchase+of+registration+certificates
There are 2 joseph Armory's listed 1857 and 1858
Hope this helps
Lacie
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Thank you Lacie,
Any idea's how to work out which one is mine??!! :)
I've just looked at the link you posted - Does area of Western Durham cover Willington?? I'm really not up on my Geography of Durham!!
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
Sadly my georaphy isn't that good
I have had a look at the listing for Durham Western and it covers Bishop Auckland and that is only a few miles from Willington and also Crook which is just to the west of Willington
so I think it is a good bet
As to which one is yours, sadly no idea other than supply as much information as you know and ask for both to be checked
Happy hunting
Lacie
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Thanks again Lacie,
I have just emailed Durham asking if they could maybe search for an early death of a Joseph or another marriage (I can't find either on that website) to see if they could cross reference the fathers and work out which is mine.
Hopefully that will help.
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxxx
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I think the clue is in the 1891 census entry for Joseph.
Armey, Joseph 32 Frosterley, Durham Head Willington Durham
Armey, Joseph H 12 Willington, Durham Son Willington Durham
Armey, Clara A 10 Willington, Durham Daughter Willington Durham
Armey, Mary E 8 Willington, Durham Daughter Willington Durham
Armey, William 6 Willington, Durham Son Willington Durham
Armey, Edith 4 Willington, Durham Daughter Willington Durham
Armey, George 2 Willington, Durham Son Willington Durham
Simpson, Margret J 23 Frosterley, Durham Sister Willington Durham
If you look in 1881
Bridge End
Stanhope, Durham, England
RG11/4938 Folio 134 Page 21
Henry SIMPSON Head M Male 43 Stanhope, Durham, Platelayer
Ann SIMPSON Wife M Female 47 Bp Auckland, Durham,
William SIMPSON Son U Male 17 Stanhope, Durham, Platelayers Son
Henry SIMPSON Son U Male 15 Stanhope, Durham, Platelayers Son
Margaret J. SIMPSON Daur U Female 13 Stanhope, Durham, Scholar
Elizabeth SIMPSON Daur U Female 8 Stanhope, Durham, Scholar
BMD
1864 Henry Simpson married Ann Armory
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I think this is him in 1871 with Grandfather. I am guessing that Ann Armory was the daughter of William (81) here. Had Joseph illegitimately (and possibly George is also her child). Then married Henry Simpson in 1864, but left Joseph with her family.
I think you need to try and get an 1861 look up to check this out - sorry I cant do that. :(
RG10/4961 Folio 87 Page 3
Brandon and Byshottles
Hill House and West Brandon
William Armory 81 Hamsterley, Durham, Head Brandon and Byshottles Durham
John Armory 44 Hamsterley, Durham, Son Brandon and Byshottles Durham
William Armory 42 Hamsterley, Durham, Son Brandon and Byshottles Durham
Mary Armory 26 Hamsterley, Durham, Daughter Brandon and Byshottles Durham
Joseph Armory 12 Stanhope, Durham, Grandson Brandon and Byshottles Durham
George Armory 10 Stanhope, Durham, Grandson Brandon and Byshottles Durham
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WOW,
Thank you so much, I'm a little confused however.
Where did Ann Armory come from? Is she Joseph (sn)'s sister?
I'm also assuming that Joseph's wife (Mary Jane)had died prior to the the 91 census.
Would the fact that Jospeh was 32 in 1891 point me towards the 1858 birth certificate in order to locate his parents?
Also the spelling is interesting, perhaps thays why I've struggled finding any info on the family.
Thanks again
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
It is a bit confusing. I'll try and explain
In 1891 Joseph (born c. 1858) is living with his children and someone described as his SISTER, Margaret J SIMPSON. As we know he was probably illegitimate due to lack of father on his marriage cert, one would possibly guess that Margaret J SIMPSON is actually his half sister, his mother having married a SIMPSON man, after he was born.
So, I looked for Margaret J SIMPSON in 1881 and found her with mother Ann SIMPSON and father Henry, plus other siblings - oldest child 17 which points to a maariage before 1865. I looked on the Durham BMD site for marriages of Henry SIMPSON and found one marrying Ann Armory in 1864.
Looking on 1871, the only possible I found for Joseph was as Grandson to William age 81. Sorry - I missed it from the transcription, but none of the sons or daughters of William are married in 1871. Ann SIMPSON (nee Armory) would have been 37 in 1871, so fits as a possible other child to William. That bit is just a hunch, thats why I am suggesting a 1861 look up to check. I will have a look for the SIMPSON family in 1871 and see if there are any other clues there in a minute.
Ann ARMORY, I think is William ARMORY s daughter.
Couldn't find Josephs wife in 1891, but I am not sure she was already dead as he is listed as married.
I don't think you are going to find out Josephs father from his birth cert if he was illegitimate. I would guess, though that his mother is Ann ARMORY - you'd have to check though.
Hope this helps. I'll see if I can find any other clues
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Ok I have just re-read all of the info posted by ec and I think I've got my head around it.....
So we're thinking that Joseph's mother could have been Ann Armory who later married Henry Simpson. Joseph was born illigitimately and his father may never have been registered. When Ann married Henry she left Joseph (and possibly George) with her father, William.
Am I right there?? Going on the form of the rest of my ancestors, Joseph was probably fathered by aliens or something of the like!! Hahaha!
Thank you for all your help. I guess if Joseph's father wasn't registered then there's no way of tracing him. I think I'll wait until I get a reply from the Durham registry office before I jump to any more conclusions!
Thanks again
Legs
xxxxx
ps just read your latest post and I do now understand I think!! I will email Durham again and ask if they can see if either Joseph they have registered has a mother called Ann Armory and also ask if a father is stated........how confusing are my lot?? Thanks xxx
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Hi Legs
You've got it - remember though its just my theory.
Suggest you post for a 1861 look up of William Armory and see who is in the household with him. He appears to be a Farmer with 132 acres - could be you can find some possible farm hands to pin the blame on....
EC
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Ok, I will alter the title of this post instead of creating a totally new one than everyone has all the info to hand.
I have just re-emailed the Durham registry office asking if either Joseph Armory has Ann registered as his mother and is there a father or not?
Hopefully they can unravel this one for me!!
By the way i do like your theory - lets hope I can pin down a naughty farm hand!!
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
You might want to check out
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/
It is pay to view, but you can search the indexes for free. Looks like they definitely have Joseph (age 2) in Stanhope in 1861
ID/Forename/Surname Age/whereborn/census/ Record District
128095.6 Joseph Armory 2 Stanhope 1861 Census Auckland
also an Ann of the correct age, different address
178392.6 Ann Armory [Armoury] 26 Hamsterley 1861 Census Weardale
also William - looks like Joseph was with him in 1861 as well.
130326.6 William Armory 72 Hamsterley 1861 Census Auckland
Interesting to find out who Ann was with - could be the Farm hand?? :D
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I dont want to confuse things further but the other possiblity that has occurred to me is that Ann was preiously married to an ARMORY son (of William), who died. So she was previously something else as surname. Grandchild, Joseph taken by grandparents as she was then on her own?
She was certainly old enough to have been married before.
Doesn't explain lack of fathers name on marriage cert though - unless he didn't know the name.....
You really need that 1861 census info - good luck
;)
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Ohh that is a possibility, not sure why I didn't think of that before as I've come across that with other members of the family. Although the Durham Registry website doesn't state that Ann was previously married so I don't think it's the case here. Oh well, Its something else to keep in mind. As soon as I get a reply from Durham I'll let you know what they've come across.
Thank you for all your help, hopefully someone will have access to the 51 or 61 to ascertain whether Ann was daughter to William or not........the quest goes on.......
Thanks
love
Legs
xxxx
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I recieved an email back from Durham........cleverly the website doesn't tell you that Durham County Council covers 3 different registry offices - As the Joseph's were born in Western Durham I need to contact Bishop Aukland Registry office instead (sounds more like Australia that the UK!!) Going to have to wait until at least Tuesday for a reply now - - - AARRRGHHHH!!
Oh well these things are sent to try us!!
I'll let you know what they say next week!
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi EC,
Your are a genius!! I've just had a reply from Bishop Auckland Registery offices and Joseph Armory's mother is Ann Armory and there was no father registered.
I've had no luck about finding out who was living with the family on the 51/61 etc so have not one to blame yet!!
Thank you for all your help
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs - glad I could help. As no one seems to be able to do a 1861 lookup I think you may have to use this site
http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/
to have a look at the census entries (or look up at record office if you can get to one). They are definitely there - see my pervious post, but I can't tell who is living with who. This might lead to some suspects as to the father of Joseph and might also ascertain if George was also Ann's child.
Good luck and let us know how you get on!
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Hi
I can do an 1861 Census lookup - where for ?
Helen K
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Hi Helen,
Thank you so much faor your offer, I would be really greatful if you could do a look up in 1861 for me.
I am especially looking for who was living with William Armory in Auckland/Hamsterley/Willington, Durham.
The info I have from 1871 is as follows....
William Armory (81) farmer of 132 acres
John (son) 44
William (son) 42
Mary (dau) 26
Joseph (grandson) 12
George (grandson) 10
I am hoping that William had another daugher called Ann Armory (she married Henry Simpson in 1868) who would have been about 27 in 1861. I would also be very interested in any farm workers/lodgers living with the family as Joseph was illigitimate and Ann Armory was his mother.
This info was found for me on durham online (?) I think they could be the prime suspects!!
ID/Forename/Surname Age/whereborn/census/ Record District
128095.6 Joseph Armory 2 Stanhope 1861 Census Auckland
also an Ann of the correct age, different address
178392.6 Ann Armory [Armoury] 26 Hamsterley 1861 Census Weardale
also William - looks like Joseph was with him in 1861 as well.
130326.6 William Armory 72 Hamsterley 1861 Census Auckland
Any info at all would be brilliant. Thank you in anticipation
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
I've had no luck finding William or Joseph. The index at DurhamRecordsOnline records them in Auckland District in 1861 - trouble is that's too big to search without at least a village name.
Take a look at Registration Districts in Durham and scroll down to Auckland. That's roughly what was covered in the Census. If you recognise any place names from information you already have then let me know and I'll take a look - I've done Hamsterley and they weren't there.
It will probably be easier and quicker for you to buy the record as has been mentioned before.
I've searched all of Stanhope - a guess, as Ann was recorded as being in Weardale in 1861 and eventually found her.
RG9/3725 Folio 92 Page 5 Sch 22
Bishopley
DOWSON
Ellen head Widow 57 DUR
Ellen Daur Un 21 DUR Auckland
George son 16 Labourer DUR Auckland
Henry Son 11 Scholar DUR Auckland
ARMORY
Ann Lodger Un 26 Dressmaker DUR Hamsterley
and these two I've found on the way:
RG9/3716 Folio 5 Page 4 Sch 15
Hamsterley
ARMORY
Jonathan Head Mar 53 Farmer of 40 acres employs 1 man DUR Hamsterley
Elizabeth Wife Mar 50 Farmers wife DUR Low Side
John Son Unm 19 Farmers son DUR Hamsterley
Elizabeth Dau Unm 15 Farmers daughter DUR Hamsterley
Jonathan Son Unm 13 Scholar DUR Hamsterley
RG9/3725 Folio 46 Page 15 Sch 82
Stanhope Prospect, Stanhope
ARMORY
Joseph Head Marr 33 Quarrier Limestone DUR Hamsterley
Mary Wife Marr 31 DUR Durham
William Son 4 DUR Stanhope
Mary Daur 1 DUR Stanhope
Regards
Helen K
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Hi Helen,
Thank you for your time and effort. I will have a good look through all my stuff and see if any other places ring a bell and get back to you if you don't mind.
As Ann is already living away from home I guess I need to locate her and family on the 1851 census, she would have been abut 16 then so hopefully still living at home.....
Thank you again
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi again Helen,
Joseph was born under St Stephen's in Willington. I'm not sure how big Willington is but thats possibly the next place too look.
William was a farmer of 132 acres and would have been about 71 yrs old in 1861.
Joseph would have been about 2.
This is the info from the 1871 census about where they were living. I'm assuming they will have been in the same place in 1861 seeing they were farmers....
RG10/4961 Folio 87 Page 3
South Brandon, Brandon and Byshottle, Durham
Hope this is helpful
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
Your family weren't at Hill house, West Brandon in 1861 - I didn't expect them to be as that's Durham Registration District and your family is in Auckland Registration District according to the index at DurhamRecordsOnline.
It's also likely you will get the 1851 Census entry from that site - have you tried it ?
Helen K
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Thank you again Helen,
I've not looked at the Durham online website as I can't afford to pay to view, unfortunatly the student income doesn't stretch that far!!
I will have a look and see what I can see on Durham online without paying! I guess I'll have to just look for William and Ann on the 1851 as Joseph wasn't born until 1858.
I'll get back to you.
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Helen,
I've just had a quick search on durham online and and there is only one William and one Ann of the right ages (62 and 17 respectively) on the 1851 census, both born in Hamsterley and in Weardale at the time of the 1851 census. I have no idea where Weardale is or what Villages it covers
There is also a William aged 21 who I believe could be William (sn)'s son, his age, place of birth and district are the same as above.
As I said before I really cannot afford to buy the records off the website, I'm not sure what else I can do to narrow down the results.
Not sure what to do now other than assume that the Joseph and Willian located on the 1871 are the ones I'm looking for, I know for definate that Joseph's mother was Ann Armory so I'm assuming that Ann is William's daughter. Any ideas about her mother??
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxxx
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Hi Legs
Weardale - again Genuki will give you that info.
http://www*fhsc*org*uk/genuki/REG/dur.htm
Those areas in 1861 cover well over 800 Census pages, so you can imagine how impossible that makes a search.
I'm sorry that you can't buy the images from DurhamRecordsOnline, but you'll find that to research your Family History accurately is going to cost money.
The evidence from Certificates, Parish Registers and Census entries is what proves you are on the right track and so able to move on (or back !).
To guess or make assumptions could lead you to research the wrong families, something you really want to avoid.
Anyway, if you get any information to place your family in 1861 please get back to me and I'll have a look.
Regards
Helen K
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Thank you once again Helen,
I am awaiting my student loan - then I can maybe find out a little more about where exactly my family are hiding and I'll gte back to you if you don't mind.
I had no idea that so many pages were covered! Sorry I tried to get you to read them all!!
Probably won't get any new info in the near future, as you know i'm doing this on a shoe string, although I do have a good handful of certificates to keep me going for a while!!
Thank you so much for all your help
Best Wishes
Legs
xxxxx
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Hi this is the list of the Armorys born at Hampsterley (pre 1837) to William & Elizabeth (who would appear to be the William 81yrs at Brandon in 1871)
1) 14th Oct. 1827 Joseph
2) 15th March 1829 William
3) 27th Apr. 1831 Jonathon
4) 14th July 1833 Ann
5) 23rd Oct 1836 Elizabeth
6) 9th Dec 1838 Margaret
William Armory married Elizabeth Dunn @ Hampsterley 26th Sept 1826
The following burials occured pre 1837 with some of the above Christian names:-
1) 6th Oct 1829 William 85yrs (of Linburn Head)
2) 27th Sept 1835 Jonathon 87yrs
3) 19th Apr 1836 Elizabeth 78yrs
the Amorys seemed to be a long living family
John
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Thank you sooooooooooo much John
That info ties up a lot of loose ends. I'm so greatful for your help.
Thanks again
Love
Legs
xxxx
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Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
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Thank you both sooooooooo much,
I think those 1861 details will fill my missing link and un-confuse my very confused head!
I just need to read it all and understand who belings to who
Ta muchly
Love
Legs
xxxxx
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Hi Alllegs
Just having a quick look at 1851 for you. Will let you know if I find anything.
John Rowley
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Hi Allegs
Found someone!
Hamsterley Area HO 107/2386 p 154/155
Place or street is called Numbers
Jonathan Armory head marr 53 farmer of 43 arcres and labourer, born Hamsterley, Durham
Elizabeth A wife marr 46 born Lowside, Durham
John A son 9 born Hamsterley, Durham
Hannah A dau 7 Hamsterley, Durham
Elizabeth A dau 5 Hamsterley, Durham
Jonathan A son 3 Hamsterley, Durham
Hope this helps :)
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Thank you for that John,
I just replied to your PM!!
Thank you so much for those Armory's, I think that Jonathan is the brother to my direct ancestor William (although don't quote me on that!)
They keep confusing me because all the Jonathon's seem to have married Elizabeth's!! Why did they have to do that!!
Was there a William Armory anywhere at all.....aged about 61 (i think) also married to an Elizabeth..?
Also an Ann Armory aged about 18? All born in Hamsterley.
Thank you again
Love
Legs
xxxxx
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Hi Allegs I just found durhamrecordsonline and you can search the index for free. This is what I found in 1841. I will check my 1841 and post the details for you.
Ann Armory 8 1841 Census Auckland
105917.4 Elizabeth Armory 35 1841 Census Auckland
106292.4 Elizabeth Armory 5 1841 Census Auckland
105918.4 Elizabeth Armory 35 1841 Census Auckland
106380.4 George Armory 50 1841 Census Auckland
104951.4 John Armory 15 1841 Census Auckland
104634.4 Jonathan Armory 10 1841 Census Auckland
106146.4 Jonathan Armory 40 1841 Census Auckland
104789.4 Joseph Armory 13 1841 Census Auckland
105132.4 Margaret Armory 2 1841 Census Auckland
106433.4 William Armory 50 1841 Census Auckland
104700.4 William Armory 11 1841 Census Auckland
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Thank you John,
That lot all seem to belong to me!!
You're a star!
Love
Legs
xxxxx
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Hi allegs
Finding it difficult to read the 1841 with any certainty as very faint, prob easier to go to http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/ and pay to view the entry.
Thanks
John Rowley
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Hi
Jonathan Armory was married to Jane Lyall. Jane's brother Anthony was married to Jonathan's sister Elizabeth. Anthony and Elizabeth married in Q1 1860 Jane and Jonathan married in Q3 1855.
Hope this is of some use.
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Welcome to RootsChat! :)
Thank you for that info, just to add a little more confusion they decided to marry each others siblings!!! These two couples are aunts and uncles to my illigitimate Joseph Armory.
Are these people related to you? If so we are distant cousins.
Thanks again
Legs
xxxx
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Hi Legs
Yes very confusing. But just to help you with your Joseph, Jonathan and Jane had the other Joseph born abt 1857 but he died I think about 1862. They went on to name another son Joseph Henry in 1871. The census searches have been hard work! They have been transcribed as Armoury, Armour, Armovy and Armery.
It is my husband who is the link but not to the Armory's but the Lyall's. Anthony is his great x 2 grandfather. Elizabeth Armory died in 1870 and Anthony went on to marry Mary Ann Nightingale who my husband is descended from.
I did a bit of Armory research because of the double Lyall link. Ann Armory is on the 1841 and the 1851 Census living with her father and mother William and Elizabeth. Not quite sure what the protocol is for the site for giving the page references but if someone could let me know if it is ok then I can forward them to you later.
Ann had 7 brothers and sisters
John 1827
William 1830
Jonathan 1832
Elizabeth 1835
Margaret 1839
Mary 1842
Hope this is of some help
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Thank you again. I think you are allowed to re-write census info including refs as long as you don't copy and paste it. I didn't know that Elizabeth Lyall (Armory) died and Anthony re-married. Thank you for that.
Legs
xxx