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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: sandra70 on Friday 05 March 10 17:01 GMT (UK)
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As promised petition raised, please feel free to forward to your friends/
relatives and colleagues :)
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/grocertificates/
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Hi
I would sign the petition but I am not sure if it will be any good.
Ben
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No, I'm not sure if it'll do any good, Ben, but it DEFINITELY won't be any good if we don't sign up to it.
I've signed. Nothing ventured, nothing gained :)
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I have signed as to do nothing now and not to register a protest means they may well think it's quite ok to increase the prices again in a year or two; before you know it we'll be paying double what we are at the moment.
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I have signed, and passed the Link on to friends. :)
Ambers
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Hi
thank you to those of you that have already signed, it may not make
any difference but worth a try....
Sandra
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Warning about petitions
By now, I suspect everyone is familiar with www.snopes.com and/or www..truthorfiction.com for determining whether information received via email is just that: true /false or fact /fiction. Both are excellent sites.
Advice from Snopes.com Very important!
1) Any time you see an E-Mail that says forward this on to '10' (or however many) of your friends, sign this petition, or you'll get bad luck, good luck, you'll see something funny on your screen after you send it, or whatever, it almost always has an E-Mail tracker program attached that tracks the cookies and E-Mails of those folks you forward to.
The host sender is getting a copy each time it gets forwarded and then is able to get lists of 'active ' E-Mail addresses to use in SPAM E-Mails, or sell to other spammers. Even when you get emails that demand you send the email on if you're not ashamed of God / Jesus .....that's E-mail tracking and they' re playing on our conscience. These people don' t care how they get your email addresses - just as long as they get them. Also, emails that talk about a missing child or a child with an incurable disease "how would you feel if that was your child"....E-mail Tracking!!! Ignore them and don't participate!
2) Almost all E-Mails that ask you to add your name and forward on to others are similar to that mass letter years ago that asked people to send business cards to the little kid in Florida who wanted to break the Guinness Book of Records for the most cards. All it was, and all any of this type of E-Mail is, is a way to get names and cookie ' tracking information for telemarketers and spammers - - to validate active E-Mail accounts for their own profitable purposes.
You can do your Friends and Family members a GREAT favor by sending this information to them; you will be providing a service to your Friends , and will be rewarded by not getting thousands of spam E-Mails in the future!
Do yourself a favor and STOP adding your name(s) to those types of listings regardless how inviting they might sound!...or make you feel guilty if you don' t!....it's all about getting email addresses - nothing more!
You may think you are supporting a GREAT cause, but you are NOT! Instead, you will be getting tons of junk mail later and very possibly a virus attached!Plus, we are helping the spammers get rich! Let's not make it easy for them!
Also: E-Mail petitions are NOT acceptable to Congress or any other organization - i.e social security, etc. To be acceptable, petitions must have a signed signature and full address of the person signing the petition, so this is a waste of time and you're just helping the Email trackers.
I have stopped signing or forwarding such things
Ginnybegood
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Rather than signing a petition I would suggest that we all contact our local MP's expressing our concerns.
I have signed so many petitions direct to no 10 and nothing much has come of it. In fact I signed one & 1 year later received and email regarding my concerns.
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I have signed.
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last date for signatures is 05 April
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Sorry folks, I just have to disagree with this.
Lets get it straight. We are all often obsessed with the hobby but Family History is just a hobby. I can find 1000 more petitions that are more worthwhile than this.
People are poor, sick, deprived, etc., etc.
Gadget
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Gadget, I agree that this is but a small issue concerned with many in the world that are more important.
But there is nothing to stop you signing this AND as many petitions as you like over and above it for what you consider more worthwhile.
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Gadget, I agree that this is but a small issue concerned with many in the world that are more important.
But there is nothing to stop you signing this AND as many petitions as you like over and above it for what you consider more worthwhile.
these petitions have become a joke, have you seen how many there are?
deffo' a case of crying wolf gone mad
ie
pressure TV broadcasters not to turn up the volume whenever they show ads
Make Cheltenham Gold Cup Day A Bank Holiday
Award Sid Wadell with an MBE
Persuade Graham Coxon to rejoin Blur
remove region codes from all machines able to play dvd's and games
in the last month i have seen 3 mentioned on this forum
to be honest i don't think many take them seriously now,
has one ever worked?
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Gadget, I agree that this is but a small issue concerned with many in the world that are more important.
But there is nothing to stop you signing this AND as many petitions as you like over and above it for what you consider more worthwhile.
I vote in general elections every 4-5 years.
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Including the one due in the UK this year.......May 6th, I think is where the betting is? :D
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Igor, we are not supposed to talk about politics on this forum and I refuse to do so now. I will vote whenever the General Election is called and I will vote according to my beliefs.
As I said earlier, Family History is a hobby - I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my season ticket for Sunderland AFC and I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my (and overseas peoples') purchase of BMD certs.
Gadget
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As i have said each to their own, but maybe time to find alternatives for some,
maybe get relatives who are interested but not doing the tree to chip in a couple of quid a month,
and every so often print them updates,
when you make contact with a relative on genes etc then share cost or take it in turns,
probably loads more of options, i just think you would have more luck going that route than waiting for the prices to change ;)
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Just to say that it's not a hopeless idea signing No 10 petitions. The one about the NHS using 0845 numbers last year had a positive result. If you care about something, then try. Why not?
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Apologies to all.
I wasn't talking about politics, just about voting in an election. I wouldn't for one moment try and affect anyone's political affiliations. (not on this board, anyway ;) )
It was a joke, actually, which was why it had a grin after it. :D
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when you make contact with a relative on genes etc then share cost or take it in turns
Indeed. Note that it's no longer a breach of copyright to make copies of certificates, so feel free to pass copies to your fellow researchers.
Copying of Birth, Death, Marriage and Civil Partnership Certificates (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/advice/crown-copyright/copyright-guidance/copying-of-birth-death-and-marriage-certificates-and-marriage-registers.htm)
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Just to say that it's not a hopeless idea signing No 10 petitions. The one about the NHS using 0845 numbers last year had a positive result. If you care about something, then try. Why not?
not going to get mixed up in which did or didn't but i think i can safely say that WASN'T because of petitions
ministers became involved and then public consultations,charging patients to ring their surgery (twice)
is a slightly different matter ;)
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I realise that the price rise has been discussed ad nauseum on this site, but I've just come accross an e-petition on, The official site of the Prime Minister’s Office, the address for the petition is
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/grocertificates/
The closing date for this is 5 April 2010, I realise that this is short notice for everyone but the least we can do is try, especially as it only cost the GRO approx £2.00 to produce a certificate.
Pas the above address on to all who may be interested.
Regards
Nigel
8)
Moderator comment: topics merged
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Crikey... there isn't long and there's not a huge amount of signatures.....come on, we all need to get onto this!!
Sue :P
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it was started by someone on this site, there was a discussion on the usefulness of it.
I signed, not that it will make any difference
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Warning about petitions
By now, I suspect everyone is familiar with www.snopes.com and/or www..truthorfiction.com for determining whether information received via email is just that: true /false or fact /fiction. Both are excellent sites.
I agree, but this is not an email petetion. It is one directly linked to 10 Downing street, who will reply.
Sue
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I signed the petition yesterday and then used the email address given to ask pertinent questions
1) I asked what they considered to be the average wage in this country currently.
2) I asked them to explain why the MPs' consider that they are worth more than the average wage.
now waiting for a reply or the police which ever comes first.
marcie
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I have just ordered 4 more certs before the price increase. I am getting in while I still can get them for £7.
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Family History is a hobby - I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my season ticket for Sunderland AFC and I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my (and overseas peoples') purchase of BMD certs.
Rather belatedly - I agree with Gadget :D
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I shall not be signing the petition and would advise anyone who hasn't yet decided to do the same. There is no justification in expecting hobbies to be subsidised by taxpayers.
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I shall not be signing the petition and would advise anyone who hasn't yet decided to do the same. There is no justification in expecting hobbies to be subsidised by taxpayers.
But there is justification in expecting taxpayer-subsidised organisations to be run in an efficient manner. Without getting political (not allowed here!), very few of them are in my opinion and the GRO is probably no exception.
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If the petition doesn't work then it was worth a try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
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i am going to say that yet again they have found something that a lot of people enjoy doing in an area which in the past has been tax free, yet another stealth tax and why should we let them get away with it.
marcie
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Tax on genealogy. We must stop it.
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Many thanx for all the signatures so far...
someone took the trouble to sign it "get a life" which I found amusing !
Happy Easter :)
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Many people are unhappy with the new price increase.
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Unfortunately the petition is poorly worded, confusing the massive price hike with green issues. But well done anyway to sandra(?) or whoever took the initiative to do something about the issue!
32% is a massive rise, but the prices would inevitably go up. I can't remember when the last price increase was. 10 years ago? The big issue for me is the fact they won't give a reduction if you save the GRO a lot of time by providing the reference number for the certificate. But I guess the vast, vast majority will have the reference number at hand these days, having obtained it online from a genealogical source.
It's all a blatant example of the GRO moving into the 21st century and making money from family history!!
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Family History is a hobby - I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my season ticket for Sunderland AFC and I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my (and overseas peoples') purchase of BMD certs.
Rather belatedly - I agree with Gadget :D
I completely agree that tax payers should not subsidise BMD certificates.
However, the real issue for me is whether the information put out by the GRO is accurate. My understanding is that the GRO has been making a financial loss but this is probably due to other activities or services including the failed original digitisation project. The current cost of £7 would appear to be more than sufficient to cover the cost of issuing a certificate if you consider that the cost for ordering a copy of a baptism, marriage or burial record from a Records Office is very much less and usually about half this price.
If the cost of issuing a certificate is considerably less than £7 then we are, of course, being asked to further subsidise other services by a price increase. ???
Nigel
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Well done Nigel, Ive been trying to find a way of saying this exact thing. I totally agree with you and am fed up with people rolling out the same old party line about the public subsidising our hobby, it doesnt add up. We are being taken for fools here I feel.
Im sure its not legal for them to be issuing this information in the first place let alone selling it, not that we want to stress that fact but still.
Not many want the actual certificate, most times its not the original anyway, just a copy written at the time we order it, therefore why not just supply the details from it by email, which would not cost much at all. Choice is the key word here, or would that be the certificate orderers subsidising us? ::)
Ive signed the petition and passed it on to another group Im in. I think they do take notice and I think its a good way to communicate, otherwise how would they know what people are thinking.
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Not many want the actual certificate, most times its not the original anyway, just a copy written at the time we order it, therefore why not just supply the details from it by email, which would not cost much at all. Choice is the key word here, or would that be the certificate orderers subsidising us? ::)
I agree that not many of us want a certificate in the form in which it is current issued but, unfortunately, current legislation stipulates that is all we are entitled to receive. For the GRO to provide the information in some other form will require a change in the legislation and this is far from being near the top of the Government's agenda.
Nigel
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The current cost of £7 would appear to be more than sufficient to cover the cost of issuing a certificate if you consider that the cost for ordering a copy of a baptism, marriage or burial record from a Records Office is very much less and usually about half this price.
In most cases record offices are operated by local councils often as part of their library network and a check of the councils financial records will show that they are subsidised by the local ratepayers. The fees they charge are usually a long way short of the actual cost, even a simple straighforward copy of a baptism takes time to process and send.
Andy
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In most cases record offices are operated by local councils often as part of their library network and a check of the councils financial records will show that they are subsidised by the local ratepayers. The fees they charge are usually a long way short of the actual cost, even a simple straighforward copy of a baptism takes time to process and send.
It is accepted that records offices are subsidised.
Most, although not all, records offices have no charge for use of most of their facilities and do, of course, have to fund their day-to-day overheads, new acquisitions of books, computer hardware and software etc from somewhere. However, I am not sure that the fees they charge for providing a copy of a straightforward baptism record are usually a long way short of the actual cost. Clearly if inaccurate or incomplete information is provided then a member of staff will have to spend more time searching for the record and the fee is arguably insufficient. However, you could also argue that since their staff are primarily employed for other reasons and have no obligation to be helpful when inaccurate or incomplete information is provided such circumstances should be disregarded.
Nigel
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Surely now that the prive has actually gone up these threads are pointless.
The Goverment will not go back on the price increase and as said before it was done to make the GRO self supporting & not requiring tax-payers money to keep it going.
Will not be posting to any more about this its done and dusted surely?
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Wasn't it already supported by taxpayers, has been since 1837? The cost of the certificates must be for copying and sending them to us? There's a legal requirement that they send out these copies and they can't put them on the web for us to download. Scotland has different legislation. (I see Nigel has already pointed this out.)
I wonder if the price rise has got anything to do with it being amalgamated into the passport office?
Still, I think a petition is a waste of effort.
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Well done Nigel, Ive been trying to find a way of saying this exact thing. I totally agree with you and am fed up with people rolling out the same old party line about the public subsidising our hobby, it doesnt add up. We are being taken for fools here I feel.
No, you are correct, it does not add up the true cost is between £15 and £20 per certificate.
If the government does as the petition asks and revues the costs we could find the prices increase sharply.
Im sure its not legal for them to be issuing this information in the first place let alone selling it, not that we want to stress that fact but still.
Not only is it legal to issue the information it is a legal requirement that they do if requested.
Not many want the actual certificate, most times its not the original anyway, just a copy written at the time we order it, therefore why not just supply the details from it by email, which would not cost much at all. Choice is the key word here, or would that be the certificate orderers subsidising us? ::)
It is not legal for the GRO to provide information from the civil registers except by certificate.
Perhaps when we get a new government they will have the competence to legally change the law to allow online access.
The present government tried but failed to comply with the law and their attempt was rejected.
Ive signed the petition and passed it on to another group Im in. I think they do take notice and I think its a good way to communicate, otherwise how would they know what people are thinking.
It has been proved time and time again that the petitions do not have the desired effect.
For instance there was a petition to change the census confidentiality period from 100 to 70 years. It received 9,388 signatures, no change effected.
The present petition only has 1,215 and will make the government think less people are interested in such legislation.
To be effective the petitions have to be well thought out, correctly worded and have well over 25,000 signatures
Cheers
Guy
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Family History is a hobby - I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my season ticket for Sunderland AFC and I don't expect tax payers to subsidise my (and overseas peoples') purchase of BMD certs.
Rather belatedly - I agree with Gadget :D
I completely agree that tax payers should not subsidise BMD certificates.
However, the real issue for me is whether the information put out by the GRO is accurate. My understanding is that the GRO has been making a financial loss but this is probably due to other activities or services including the failed original digitisation project. The current cost of £7 would appear to be more than sufficient to cover the cost of issuing a certificate if you consider that the cost for ordering a copy of a baptism, marriage or burial record from a Records Office is very much less and usually about half this price.
If the cost of issuing a certificate is considerably less than £7 then we are, of course, being asked to further subsidise other services by a price increase. ??
Well done Nigel, Ive been trying to find a way of saying this exact thing. I totally agree with you and am fed up with people rolling out the same old party line about the public subsidising our hobby, it doesnt add up. We are being taken for fools here I feel.
I was NOT 'rolling out the same old party line'. I have a mind of my own and was expressing my own opinion.
Jennifer
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No, you are correct, it does not add up the true cost is between £15 and £20 per certificate.
If the government does as the petition asks and revues the costs we could find the prices increase sharply.
It is not legal for the GRO to provide information from the civil registers except by certificate.
Perhaps when we get a new government they will have the competence to legally change the law to allow online access.
The present government tried but failed to comply with the law and their attempt was rejected.
Hi Guy,
Where do you obtain or how do you arrive at the figure of between £15 and £20? You may be right although I cannot currently see that the cost for copying, cutting and pasting of an entry and completing a certificate (allowing also for various overheads) would /should be that high bearing in mind that it is undertaken by the GRO on a highly repetitive and large volume basis.
Although it is also my understanding that it is not legal for the GRO to provide information from the civil registers except by certificate what is your understanding of how that conclusion has been reached? Although the GRO is obliged to issue the information by certificate if requested so far I have been unable to find anything which says that it cannot also provide information for certain uses in other formats.
Nigel
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Hi Guy,
Where do you obtain or how do you arrive at the figure of between £15 and £20? You may be right although I cannot currently see that the cost for copying, cutting and pasting of an entry and completing a certificate (allowing also for various overheads) would /should be that high bearing in mind that it is undertaken by the GRO on a highly repetitive and large volume basis.
Although it is also my understanding that it is not legal for the GRO to provide information from the civil registers except by certificate what is your understanding of how that conclusion has been reached? Although the GRO is obliged to issue the information by certificate if requested so far I have been unable to find anything which says that it cannot also provide information for certain uses in other formats.
Nigel
It has been computed from various freely available accounts, FoI requests and staffing levels/wages divided by the released figures of certificate requests.
There is also an allowance made for staff sickness, manual searching, checking and transcribing of those illegible certificates (taken from figures given on a tour of Southport Hydro).
The cost of providing a certificate is not just the costs involved in printing out a form.
There are the basic costs of providing and equipping an office to be considered, plus the additional costs involved in the production of each individual certificate.
This may involve additional staff, or staff manhours diverted from other duties.
You may think it is a highly repetitive and large volume basis but running a similar business producing CDs on demand provides me with a good model to work from.
Cheers
Guy
PS I did not answer your second question regarding supplying certificates.
There is only one way a registrar, superintendent registrar, Registrar General etc. can supply a copy of an entry in a register and that is by a providing certified copy of the entry in the register.
Any copy of an entry supplied is a certified copy and as such the regulated charge has to apply.
Remember a certificate is not a printed piece of paper but a copy of a register entry certified to be a true copy of that entry.
Cheers
Guy
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There is only one way a registrar, superintendent registrar, Registrar General etc. can supply a copy of an entry in a register and that is by a providing certified copy of the entry in the register.
And yet an Archive or Records Office can supply an uncertified copy of an entry from a Parish Register: which in the case of a marriage is the same as the entry in the registrar's register. It does seem a strange anomaly!
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Exactly, and for £1.25 at that.
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There is only one way a registrar, superintendent registrar, Registrar General etc. can supply a copy of an entry in a register and that is by a providing certified copy of the entry in the register.
And yet an Archive or Records Office can supply an uncertified copy of an entry from a Parish Register: which in the case of a marriage is the same as the entry in the registrar's register. It does seem a strange anomaly!
From my interpretation of the legislation the GRO is obliged to provide a certified copy on request but at present I can see nothing which says that it cannot also provide an uncertified copy for use for certain purposes (eg family historians). For example, why can't the GRO simply photocopy a relevant part of the page (without all the expensive formatting for a certified copy), mark the copy as uncertified and not for legal use and send it out? There may, of course, be other issues for living persons so that a date limit would be necessary.
Nigel
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Well done Nigel, Ive been trying to find a way of saying this exact thing. I totally agree with you and am fed up with people rolling out the same old party line about the public subsidising our hobby, it doesnt add up. We are being taken for fools here I feel.
I was NOT 'rolling out the same old party line'. I have a mind of my own and was expressing my own opinion.
Jennifer
:-* Wasnt picking on you particularly, I keep on hearing this same line, look back and see how many times on here even.
I could just as easily keep repeating that I have worked for civil service (my husband still does) and I know for a fact that they waste taxpayers money by the ton, the government can hardly talk, that is not the reason they are doing this and we all know it and thats what is so infuriating.
Im sure thats not just 'my opinion'
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Not only is it legal to issue the information it is a legal requirement that they do if requested.
Maybe I was hasty, obviously it would be lawful wouldnt it, because they are the ones who make the rules, I should have said morally illegal. They force us to give the information on threat of punishment and they are legally obliged to provide it if we ask. they have the staff, offices and resources in place anyway to process all this information,its not like they had to set up just to supply us family historians. They should not be allowed to make any kind of profit from it, paying £10 for what amounts to a few surnames is not my idea of value for money and is now pricing me out of this pastime of family storyteller sadly. And they wonder why people turn to ripping and hacking, tsk!
Ive just been stung for £14 for full copies of my childrens birth certs for first passports,(new rules to suit them) after already shelling out for a few copies at birth for such reasons,which are now useless. >:(
It has been proved time and time again that the petitions do not have the desired effect.
To be effective the petitions have to be well thought out, correctly worded and have well over 25,000 signatures
Apathy will get us nowhere, if nobody made their voice heard, then they would think they could get away with anything, maybe it will make them think twice about raising the price next year.
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Maybe I was hasty, obviously it would be lawful wouldnt it, because they are the ones who make the rules, I should have said morally illegal. They force us to give the information on threat of punishment and they are legally obliged to provide it if we ask.
Again you are working on a wrong assumption.
The GRO do not make the rules and never have.
They are governed by laws made by Members of Parliament, the same as the rest of us.
The law required them to keep the records (a task now overseen by the Identity and Passport Service).
they have the staff, offices and resources in place anyway to process all this information,its not like they had to set up just to supply us family historians. They should not be allowed to make any kind of profit from it, paying £10 for what amounts to a few surnames is not my idea of value for money and is now pricing me out of this pastime of family storyteller sadly. And they wonder why people turn to ripping and hacking, tsk!
Ive just been stung for £14 for full copies of my childrens birth certs for first passports,(new rules to suit them) after already shelling out for a few copies at birth for such reasons,which are now useless. >:(
The price of certificates etc. is not set by the GRO either but is set by what is called a Statutory Instrument. Civil servants and number crunchers often simply use the inflation figures (as seems to have happened this time) to set the new charges.
Occasionally they check the real costs involved to provide the service , which if they did today would increase the charge to between £15 and £20 per certificate.
It should also be noted they do not make any profit but actually run at a loss (check the published accounts).
Apathy will get us nowhere, if nobody made their voice heard, then they would think they could get away with anything, maybe it will make them think twice about raising the price next year.
I can assure you I am not apathetic, in fact quite the opposite.
I am however opposed to badly researched, misguided attempts and petitions that are counter productive.
The accounts for the year 2005-2006 show that 1,640,479 certificates were issued.
Now let use assume that every person ordered four certificates that would amount to 410,119 people ordering certificates.
The current petition had when it closed 1,222 signatures.
Using these out of date figures ( present figures will be higher).
The figures therefore could be seen to show that only 1,222 customers out of 410,119 were dissatisfied with the costs.
Far from causing them to think the costs are too high the petition could actually make them think the public would accept a far higher increase before even 10% complain about the increase.
Cheers
Guy
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So the GRO didn't decide the new price increase then if they dont make the decisions?
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When Scotland can provide us with the info on historical Certs, for 1.25, records offices can provide copies of their records for similar, and places elsewhere in the world can provide absolutely free acess to their BMD records, we must then ask why it costs us 14 to 15 pounds in real terms to provide the same via a certificate. If Guy is correct our system is absolutely the problem. Yes we have a bigger population than Scotland, but no way can that account alone for a 1000% plus rise in the amount of overheads on the service here from there. Apart from the population difference their overheads can not be that significantly different.
Their seems also real confusion about how much it costs them to produce a certificate (2.00 is the figure I have seen quoted from a Freedom of Information request.)
I suggest we use common sense. It should never in a million years cost 14 to 15 pounds to give us a few lines of information, and if god forbid it actually does, then we must scrap the entire system lock stock and barrel, dismantle it completely and start again. It's rotten.
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I was talking about the government not the GRO, obviously they dont create the law and you can make the figures say what you want them to say, or they can, I dont believe them, and its still wrong.
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Also Guys points out that the fact they are currently running at a loss. In the context it seemed to be provided as evidence then they must be undercharging on certificates. But, what about all the certificates that arrive wrong, have to be resent out, and they ask you to send the old one back in a prepaid envelope they send out? The amount of waste there....Then the certs that do not arrive at all. The staff on the phones dealing with both these queries.......all adds up.
Inefficiency is certainly losing them money too, how much is anyones guess, but the amount of times these things have happened to me, and I have repeatedly read the same on boards such as this, suggest it is not a negligable amount. It certainly contributes to their losses.
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Hi
When Scotland can provide us with the info on historical Certs, for 1.25
Actually, 1.25 is the cost of a copy of the registration not a certificate, certificates in Scotland cost 10.00 GDP, dearer than the new rate in England & Wales.
Their seems also real confusion about how much it costs them to produce a certificate (2.00 is the figure I have seen quoted from a Freedom of Information request.)
This FOI request is very selective in what it included and quite frankly is a very poor example of costing. It completely ignores the other staff such as IT, finance ( 1.5 million certificates equates to 1.5 million payments to process) telephone/reception, management etc all of which contribute to the department costs, then there are the non-salaried costs.
Andy
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"Actually, 1.25 is the cost of a copy of the registration not a certificate, certificates in Scotland cost 10.00 GDP, dearer than the new rate in England & Wales
Yes 100% well aware of that. But really I didn't mention it as as far as I am concerned it is a more or less an irrelevence. We are talking the information on historical certs, which Scotland can and does provide for 1.25, and elsewhere in the world can be provided absolutely free, so there is no justification whatsoever that it should costs us 15 to 20 pounds to get this information in England, apart from the system being rotten, over complicated, and inefficiently run. This is common sense.
I take your point about the F of I requests, but that is really the point I was making anyway. There is real confusion over the matter. Your assuming the 2.00 figure quoted dosn't take into account all them costs. Do you have evidence for that? I have been unable to get a clear answer just what it included and what it didn't. Personally I find it more than believable that it does include staff and ancillary costs, as actually calling up a digital image and printing, putting in an enevelope and sending can at best cost what 50p including the postage?
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It should also be noted they do not make any profit but actually run at a loss (check the published accounts).
Agreed.
However, see reply 36 regarding the fact that the increase may have been made on the basis to cover losses in other areas of the services and activities of the GRO. Issuing BMD certificates is not the only service or activity of the GRO. For example, very significant expenditure has been incurred on the incomplete original digitisation project.
The price increase does, of course, have to be set by Statutory Instrument since the original prices were included in the 1953 legislation etc. However, in the absence of having seen any proper calculation as to how the prices have been set, and which when compared with the costs of obtaining a copy of an entry from a parish register from a records office appear to be excessive, it appears that 'the number crunchers' (whoever they may be - the GRO, the Treasury....) have simply looked at the overall loss of the GRO and inflation and asked family historians and others to cover losses for other GRO activities and services.
I would be interested to see how you calculated £15 - £20 for a certificate.
Nigel
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For those who keep mentioning Scotlandspeople, then it is slightly misleading, i'm sure someone will
have mentioned before? their birth records are only available 1855-1909 so a time span of 54 years, outside of that
you have to pay £10 for the extract, PLUS the minimum £6 to register and get the entry, if you have numerous certificates
in that time period then it can be cheaper, so great if your lucky
that your relative decided to be born within that 54 years, if not then the uk system is a lot cheaper,
if your relatives were from London you could say the LMA records are far more comprehensive and a lot cheaper
for the period 1754-1921, then include baptisms/births etc, and covers a lot more in total than Scotland,
so to compare Scotlands records is very misleading.
As for apathy, lol sorry £2-25 doesn't make me want to get a banner out, hug a tree or storm whitehall chanting,
I, ME, MYSELF am big and ugly enough to decide what is or isnt expensive in MY opinion.
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Hi
take your point about the F of I requests, but that is really the point I was making anyway. There is real confusion over the matter. Your assuming the 2.00 figure quoted dosn't take into account all them costs. Do you have evidence for that?
This is the link relating to the FOI request.
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/files/ips/live/assets/documents/FOI9902_response.pdf
It would certainly be ideal if England & Wales had a similar system to Scotland regarding access to the historical registers but it would require either a change in law or a change in the interpretation of the law (I'll leave the legal experts to decide which would be necessary) but there would be a fairly substantial set up cost and I suspect that irrespective of who gets in, this wouldn't be high on the agenda.
Funnily enough it may well be that the best chance of this happening would be for the push to come from within the GRO and knocking them for alleged shortcomings doesn't help.
There are a small number of BMD's from various parts of the world accessable through Ancestry and I think the LDS but not that many, whilst with regards to the records offices, which are subsidised by local ratepayers, I tend to agree with a comment from Nigel in an earlier post that you could argue that staff in records offices are primarily employed for other purposes which is not the case with the GRO.
Andy
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I would advise anyone who thinks providing a certificate is as simple as click the mouse a few times to take a tour of the Southport Hydro.
These free tour occur frequently and they will show you just how much effort actually goes into the process.
Cheers
Guy
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As the cost of certificates has now increased and the petition has closed, this topic is now locked.
Thanks for your contributions.
Dawn