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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ambers on Friday 19 March 10 16:58 GMT (UK)
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This is probably a silly question, but if someone was adopted would it be noted on the original certificate ???
The word ADOPTED has been added outside the box with all the other details in and signed T.R.Holmes Watkins, Superintendent Registrar.
Ambers
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It is like that on mine from 1942. My adopted mother was given a 'certified copy of an entry in the Adopted Children Register' a month aafter the official adoption went through.
She then obtained a 'short certificate' which just gives name , sex and date of birth so that I would not have to show other people.
The 'adopted' certificate gives name of adopter plus date of adoption and description of Court that made the order.
I also have a copy of the Adoption Order which gives name and address of both mothers. Does not give any details as to why the adoption took place.
Jean
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This is probably a silly question, but if someone was adopted would it be noted on the original certificate ???
The word ADOPTED has been added outside the box with all the other details in and signed T.R.Holmes Watkins, Superintendent Registrar.
Ambers
Yes, I've seen a birth certificate (from the 1960s), for a child subsequently adopted, on which the same annotation has been made in the far right margin of the certificate.
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Many thanks Jean and avm228.
If only they added a year of adoption. I am wondering now if his mothers new husband adopted him four years later because for certain this child was around his real family in the 1940's
This is the most interesting family I have come across. No doubt there has been lot's of heartaches for them over the years, as bit by bit I try to unravel the real story :-\
Ambers
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I have exactly the same issue.
My fathers original birth certificate before he was adopted in 1947 says on the bottom left ADOPTED and is signed by a registrar, does this mean his birth mother was wanting him adopted as soon as he was born or that she intended to have him adopted not long after? we know he was adopted 3 years after his birth in 1944, was there some 'waiting period' before children were adopted?
Thanks for any advice
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I have exactly the same issue.
My fathers original birth certificate before he was adopted in 1947 says on the bottom left ADOPTED and is signed by a registrar, does this mean his birth mother was wanting him adopted as soon as he was born or that she intended to have him adopted not long after? we know he was adopted 3 years after his birth in 1944, was there some 'waiting period' before children were adopted?
Thanks for any advice
I think that the 'Adopted' bit would be added to the original cert whenever the adoption took place - be it days, months or even years later.
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If only they added a year of adoption. I am wondering now if his mothers new husband adopted him four years later because for certain this child was around his real family in the 1940's
Ambers
Most adoptions arise from unfortunate or unhappy circumstances. A date of adoption is not included as many adopted children retain their original forename(s) on adoption and it would then be reasonably straightforward to reconcile a birth and adoption certificate without counselling etc. Not everyone wants to be traced.
I have a birth certificate where 'Adopted' is entered in the margin. The circumstances of the birth could, at best, be described as unpleasant and unhappy.
Nigel
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Sorry that I haven't replied to the later answers to my query.... no notifications to alert me when I came out of hospital.
The adoption of my relative appears to have a good outcome as he was adopted by his real father when he was well into his thirties....the man his mother later married. I know he was always referred to by this surname as a child, but his certificate was in the mans name that his mother pretended to be married to.
There were five illegitimate children altogether and although they knew their fathers name, he is still hard to pin down as we don't have a year or place of birth, the occupation changes on some of the children's birth certificates......the one living child would still like to know who he was.
I understand what you are saying Nigel, it could cause a lot more unhappiness if people were able to reconcile a birth with adoption certificate
without counselling.....my comment was out of frustration only as the person I am trying to help is very old.
Ambers
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Hi all,
I was born in 1944, my original birth certificate also says adopted. Apart from my birth mothers name and my place of birth and date of registration. ::) not a lot more. At the bottom, signed by the registrar. My given surname at that time was the same as my married mother, ::) was there a choice of surname given to an illegitimate child or was it automatically the same as the mothers ???
I also have a copy of my Certified entry in the adopted children's register. I would have liked to have known who my father was ??? Though now as time passes it has become less important.
How do other people of my generation feel about being adopted ???
Ann
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Hi all,
How do other people of my generation feel about being adopted ???
Ann
Hi Ann, :)
I wasn't ignoring you, I hoped someone with more knowledge than myself would reply to your questions.
On the certificate I was asking about the parents were pretending to be married, the father actually Registered the birth himself, as he did with all the other children.
To make things more complicated, we believe that the Lodger was actually the father of this child. The mother married this Lodger two years later and it was this man that adopted him.
I believe if the parents weren't married that the fathers name could be entered on the certificate as long as they were both present at the time and he agreed to it.
I have seen a few certificates where the fathers name has been left blank and they were given their mothers maiden name....as was the case of a friend of mine who was adopted at a few months old in 1966.
Maybe you should start a Thread about how Adopted people feel of your generation.
Ambers
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Hello All,
I appreciate that this is a very sensitive subject so I hope I don't inadvertantly upset anyone.
I have been thinking about how the registration of births would occur. Obviously a birth can only happen once and the original details registered at the local Register Office, who then submit their quarterly returns to the GRO.
The original entries of that certificate cannot be altered but a separate column is available for comments. If some later details are added to the original, then the GRO details have to be be updated and a new certificate is returned by the local office, which should be recorded in the quarter it was sent, but the reference would be different to the usual ones, something like "Maidstone, see J44 23".
For example, the registration of Joe Bloggs in the 3rd quarter of 1949 with the above reference would mean that it is an amendment to a certificate on the Maidstone returns on page 23 of the June quarter 1944.
They may have a different system where adoption is involved, but perhaps it might be worth looking into.
Regards,
Colin
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I have copies of the original birth certs (1935/1936) and the adoption certs of both my grandfather and his sister.
My grandfather's name was changed completely, while his sister kept her forenames and only her surname changed.
The GRO index entries for both are under their birth names, there isn't any amendment refs next to them and they are not indexed at all under their adopted names.
Goodness knows how either one would have sent for their birth cert if they applied in their adopted names.
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JustKia
As you say, the birth names only are given in the GRO index, so if a child doesn't know he was adopted, or even if he does, but does not know his birth name, he won't be able to find it without applying to Kew and receiving counselling. This is what happened to my adopted brother, born 1936.
My own children, adopted in the 70s, are more fortunate. We were given full details of their natural parents by the adoption society, right down to physical appearance, school achievements, etc. It's intriguing to look at what they have inherited - good at sport, for example as well as curly hair and eye colouring.
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There is a link to the GRO and adoptions here
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Birthandadoptionrecords/Adoptionrecords/index.htm
There are no links on either the GRO birth index or Adopted Childrens Index to each event, to prevent people trying to match up one with the other.
However, there are clues on the short birth cert which is issued at the time of adoption.
If adopted, the place of birth will just say England not a county or reg district, and if there is a 5digit/3digit reference number in one corner of the cert, this is the adoption entry number, (entry number and volume.)
I know that some people have received long birth certs only to find the adoption annotation in the far right column purely by chance. Even today people who were adopted in the 40's and 50's have to receive councelling before they get to see their files if they still exist, many do not. There are application forms on the link above.
And for info, there are no facilities now at Kew for looking at the adopted childrens index or any GRO index, they've all be removed.
Dawn
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, was there some 'waiting period' before children were adopted?
Thanks for any advice
Could be wrong but I think in the 1940's a child would live with the adopting family for 12 months before the official adoption went through.
I was told that my birth mother had told the court she had changed her mind and wanted to keep me but the court decided otherwise and the adoption went through.
Jean
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I can't speak for any others but my grandfather and his sister were only a few weeks old when they were adopted (to different families).
My grandfather's sister was born Jan 9 and adopted Mar 5.
My grandfather was born Jun 17 and adopted Sep 16.
The third child was kept by his parents.
My grandfather knew of his brother (child 3) but never knew he had a sister, both are deceased now.
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My auntie adopted a baby in 1958- she had to wait 12 months to adopt her officially.The very day they went to court to sign the papers,the natural mother changed her mind(her circumstances had changed) and she wanted her back.
My aunt and uncle were devastated.They had to wait a couple of years before they were allowed to try again.My (adopted ) cousin has just celebrated her 50th birthday!
Carol
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I have just found out that i was adopted age 4. I have always thought my adoptive dad was my real dad until a family secret was revealed.
I requested birth and adoption certificates guessing the names. Paid £47 to have them with in 5 days. My real certificate states my mothers maiden name and father unknown! At the bottom it states adoption. Then i have the adoption certificate stating the mans name whom i believed was my father. At 28 its very painful and sad to think your life was based on lies!
Hope this helps.
Natalie
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Hi nantig,
I am so sorry to hear that you have found out that you were adopted this way :'(
I hope you have someone close to you that you can confide in and hopefully help you think things through.
Ambers
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Hello Ambers,
Thank you for your reply and comments. They were very much appreciated, and it's good to share thoughts and questions surrounding adoption.
Ann
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Hi Ann :)
Although I am not adopted myself, I feel for people who are having gone on a very emotional search with a close friend.
I also remember the sixties when things were be quite impossible for woman to keep their babies...it's so sad from both sides :'(
Ambers
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Natalie
If you are only 28, then you had the right to have information about your adoption and birth parents by law. Had you been adopted through an Adoption Society, this information would have been presented to your parents to pass on to you as you grew up. My children were both adopted in the 70s through a society, and we were presented with a dossier about their birth parents for them. However, as I understand it, your mother kept you, and it is only your father's name you are seeking. If your mother chose not to reveal his name, you could perhaps talk to a relative of her generation, who might know who she was associating with at the time.
Your feelings of disappointment and distress at this time are understandable, but as time passes you may be able to look at the man you have always thought of as your father again and consider that he accepted the situation and cared for you as a daughter. It is sometimes very difficult for parents to "own up " to their adopted child. My adopted brother was not told of the fact and was kindly informed on his first day at school that the parents he named as his were not in fact his, because he was adopted and didn't have any real parents - this from another 5 year old! My parents had been told that they would never have any children and had adopted him as a baby, so he was very precious to them, Imagine their surprise when my mother found herself pregnant with me a year later! Despite that early upset we were always a very close and happy family, and my brother chose to try and trace his parentage only after both our parents were dead. He found an uncle and several cousins in Canada and the US, but his mother had died and just as on your birth certificate there was no father's name on the birth certificate.
I hope that time will heal your pain.
Gillg
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And there is always the possibility that he IS your biological father. If he wasn't named on the birth cert because your parents were not married and he didn't go at the time of registration to have his name put on the cert.
There are a lot of possibilities and it would really be in your best interests to talk to those involved in as calm and cool manner as possible about the events - remember it may be distressing for them too.
Lot of useful info in the posts above.
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Hi
My mum has a friend who was adopted in 1937 and she gave us permission to send for her original birth cert as she wants to find who her birth family was. She was born in May 1936 and the cert said she was adopted in August 1937.
Ben
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Ben
I'm a bit surprised that you were allowed to send for a friend's birth certificate. I thought that only the adopted person was allowed access to the original, and then only after counselling - this is what happened a few years ago to my adopted brother. If the original birth name is known, anyone can find the birth registration from the GRO index. My brother is there under his birth name, but didn't know it, of course, until he was told following counselling.
Gillg
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You need the birth name to get the birth cert which may say "adopted" in the far right column but doesn't say when. You need the birth forenames and the adopted surname to get the adoption cert which does say when but doesn't give the birth surname. At least concerning birth/adoption c.mid-thirties in England that is.
I did not have to recieve any counselling prior to getting the adoption certs - I wonder if that is because both people that I requested certs for were deceased.
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My friend is 74 this month and t was 2 years ago that she asked us to obtain her original birth cert.
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Ben
If the original birth name is known, anyone can find the birth registration from the GRO index. My brother is there under his birth name, but didn't know it, of course, until he was told following counselling.
Gillg
Hi Gill,
I was born 1944, and this was the procedure in 1990. I had known from 1980 that I was adopted, but never attempted to trace until after both my adopted parents had died. I was amazed when I discovered my birth registration on GRO.
Ann
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My friend has even asked if we could trace her birth mother. The surname is quite common though but she was originally from Scotland and moved down to Surrey when she had her.
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Coombs,
Your friend must have great respect and trust in you, I had the support of a dear and trusted friend but I do believe that this lady must request the legal documentation herself, and with your support and help to find the answers if possible. I imagined the counselling to be so different than it was but I can honestly say the people involved were understanding and sympathetic and helped me tremendously.
Ann
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Her birth was registered 3 months after the event. Born May and registered in August 1936. SHe must have trust in us if she requested we send for her birth cert.
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Hi Coombes,
Do you know why your friends birth was not registered until 3 months after her birth ??? I thought that the law only allowed 42 days in which to register a birth :-\ I hope your friend finds her answers (with your help) good luck with the search.
Ann
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Hi Coombes,
Do you know why your friends birth was not registered until 3 months after her birth ??? I thought that the law only allowed 42 days in which to register a birth :-\ I hope your friend finds her answers (with your help) good luck with the search.
Ann
I am not sure why it was registered late. She must have had a reason. Even though they had 42 days to register some births were registered later than 42 days after. I dont think she was trying to cover up the birth. We sent it to her and she allowed us to keep a scanned copy for ourselves.
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I found it surprsing that they sent out a 1926 birth certificate of an Adopted person to me, although I had no way of knowing who adopted him from it.
I doubt any check was made to see if he was deceased first or what relation I was
I had trawled the births for ten years looking for a surname matched with a mothers maiden name in a certain area....I was suprised to learn he had been adopted.
Makes you wonder how many grandchildren into this hobby learn these facts when the relation has no idea. I research with the grandchild of this mans sister, she didn't know he had been adopted by her grandmothers second husband and had assumed he was just using his surname.
Ambers
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Ambers
Are you saying that you traced the adopted person's birth from the GRO index, and that the mother's maiden name and probable place of birth was already known to you? In that case you or anyone else who had that information could have ordered the birth certificate through the GRO. This is not the same as simply not knowing these details and not being able to work them out. In my brother's case he knew only his birthplace and date of birth. This was 1936 and other details were not given to the adoptive parents. Even if he had trawled through all the hundreds of boys born in that year quarter in that city he would have been no wiser, as my parents had changed his forenames and, of course, his surname. The only way forward for him was to apply to Kew and undergo counselling.
Gillg
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I had a daughter who I had to give up for adoption in 1960 and her birth shows up in GRO index. We are now back in touch and she will be 50 in a couple of weeks and talking about how adoption affects people, this is what she wrote to me a few weeks ago about how she feels about her adoption.
I suppose the fact of growing up adopted has left me with a psyche that perhaps lends itself to relationships with people who know what it is to be different, to feel different, to have grown up with a complicated sense of belonging (or not belonging). I had a happy childhood, and feel very much part of my adoptive family, as I always have. But there is something else there too, always was, although I didn’t recognise and articulate and acknowledge it for a long time.
It might be relevant that, like Gillg's parents, my daughter's adoptive parents were told they couldn't have any children, but after they adopted her, her mother became pregnant and she has a brother born to the family.
Lizzie
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Just over 30 years ago my doctor adopted a child as they were told they couldn't have one of their own.As soon as they adopted him,his wife became pregnant.He always explained it as once the pressure was off trying for a baby the body relaxes and it became possible. ;D
Carol
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The original birth registration will be in the GRO index with the original birth parent(s) name(s) on it.
That cert can be applied for by anyone - indeed anyone could order any random cert from the index.
That cert may say "adopted" in the far right column but no other details regarding the adoption.
The adoption cert can be applied for via the GRO if you know the birth forenames and the adopted surname - if you don't know those you need to contact the relevant authorities and that's where the counselling probably comes in.
My grandfather knew he was adopted and knew his birth names (his adopted parents changed his forenames also). So, I had all the info I needed to get his adoption cert.
At first I wasn't able to get his sisters cert as I didn't know her adopted surname. I had a copy of her original birth entry but without the surname she was adopted into I could not get the adoption cert.
I believe she knew she was adopted as a descendant had put their research online using her birth name. From her marriage (searched by husband's name) I found her adopted surname and then was able to get the adoption cert.
But without the birth forenames and adopted surname it was a complete no go.
The birth cert does not give a clue about the adopted surname or parents.
The adoption cert does not give a clue about the birth surname or parents.
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Ambers
Are you saying that you traced the adopted person's birth from the GRO index, and that the mother's maiden name and probable place of birth was already known to you? In that case you or anyone else who had that information could have ordered the birth certificate through the GRO.
Gillg
Hi Gillig, :)
No, it's not the same thing.
I added it as another point of view following on from my previous posts after receiving the certificate. My original post was only about wording on certificates and not about children tracing their birth parents.
That's what I was referring to, anyone could order a certificate to find a person had been adopted. This child was one of five children, the others were unaware he had been adopted by their mothers next husband. His surviving sibling is still unaware of the adoption, although I am not sure her grandchild will tell her as she is very old.
Ambers
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I was born in 1978 and was "adopted from birth" (as in left the hospital with my adoptive parents and never with my biological mother). The legal process of the adoption was completed about 9 months later.
To cut a long story short, I have recently become more interested in my adoption, especially with the "myth" about it that came from my grandmother.
Anyway, I have always had a copy of my adoption certificate but just recently received a copy of my original birth certificate. On the certificate it is filled in as you would expect, signed by the registrar and directly under box 17 it has written "Adopted, Registrars name, Registrar" - it is the same handwriting and name as signed above and is certainly not in any margin.
I have no idea when it was added but the practice doesnt seem to be that historic as it happened on mine in the late 70s
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Hi Lizzie,
Oh how I can understand and share your daughters comments. I used to think that because my adopted sisters and brother were so much older than me, that was why I felt in some strange way distanced with a sense of longing and searching but not knowing what I longed for or what I was searching for. Like your daughter I had a happy and fulfilled childhood, but meeting my birth family was quite daunting, not at all like you see on Cilla Blacks show. I'm still building my bridges and climbling my mountains, maybe one day I will get there!! In the mean time I count myself very very privileged, I have a wonderful family with happy smiling grandchildren and greatgrandchildren and doubt very much if I would be the person I am today if things had been different all those years ago.
Ann
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Hi Ann
I've sent you a PM, rather than take over this thread.
Lizzie