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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Derbyshire => Topic started by: Keitht on Thursday 18 March 10 22:20 GMT (UK)
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William Mansfield. b. abt 1721, married Martha Henchley on 21 September 1746 at All Saints. He then married Mary Storer, again at All Saints, on 4th August 1754. He had three children, George Storer Mansfield, Sarah and Elizabeth with Mary.
Various documents suggest that there were children feom his first marriage, with some evidence that a male child died quite young.
Please can anyone shed any further light on this fanily?
Keith
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Hello Keith,
Just wondered if you had made typing error re wife of William Mansfield.
George Storer Mansfield Bpt. 24.9.1764 St. Werburgh Derby EXTRACTED RECORD from Parish Register
per IGI was the son of William Mansfield & Sarah. The marriage you show in on the IGI but is a Patron
Submitted entry.
Other Children Bpt to William & Sarah Mansfield all EXTRACTED RECORDS at St. Werburgh, Derby:-
William 1763
George Storer 1764
Sarah 1767
John 1770
Elizabeth 1772
Spendlove
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Thanks for that. I was obviously not concentrating when I typed the original message.
I am actually researching Spring Hill College, a religious teaching centre established by this family in Birmingham in the 1820s. It later moved to become Masfield College, Oxford. Back in the 1950s the college employed a geneaalogist to sort out the family line and he found a Wm Mansfield/Mary Storer marriage in Derby at the right time, so assumed that this was the parents.
Upon checking the parish records I discovered that the mother was in fact Sarah Storer. as you rightly say. This is confirmed by burial records for St Mary.s Whittall St., Birmingham, where Sarah Mansfield Jr's husband, Charles Glover, was buried alongside his mother-in-law, Sarah Mansfield. I also found all five siblings - something of a surprise, since we had only ever been aware of three.
For some reason I must have been thinking of the original error when I typed my post. Thanks for the correction.
Despite research over a four year period I have not been able to conclusively determine the parentage of either William Mansfield or Sarah Storer, which is crucial in determining whether the family had a right to use the heraldic design which it conferred on Spring Hill College.
Keith
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Hello Keith,
I do understand, have you obtained the following information:-
1. When and to Whom with the Mansfield Name were the arms
first granted and in which County were they residing?
2. You need the full description of the Arms as Granted.
3. Harleian Society published a list of people who were granted arms between 1687 - 1898, have you consulted this?
4. Do the Arms displayed by Mansfield College, conform with the original
or do they come from a Cadet branch?
Having established the above, depending when granted, you can consult
the Heralds' Visitations.
Regards
Spendlove
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This is where life gets complicated.
The arms as I have them, full heraldic description somewhere in my files. appear to have been granted to a de Mansfeld family in Yorkshire back in the 1500s but we have no evidence to suggest that the Mansfields are descended from them. Nor indeed is there any evidence that the family used their arms. A new Spring Hill College was built between 1854 and 1856, after their deaths and it may simply be that the architect went searching for a device associated with the name Mansfield with which to adorn his building.
This became tricky in 1955, when Mansfield College applied for full membership of Oxford University and the College of Heralds queried their right to the arms, lifted from Spring Hill. It was at this point that they engaged a professional genealogist, who seems to have made a complete dog's breakfast of his research (I have his notes), with the result that the college was obliged to commission a new coat of arms.
My interest stems from the fact that I attended Moseley Grammar School, then housed in the old SHC building, between 1956 and 1962, at which time the entire history of the building had been lost. A few years ago the then Deputy Head of the successor school, of which I was then a governor and which was still housed in the same building, and I determined to investigate and we are now almost ready to publish our findings.
Needless to say, Mansfield College also have a keen interest in resolving this particular puzzle.
Keith
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Hello Keith,
Think it is important that you compare the Arms issued C1500 to De Mansfield and the Arms used by the
School/College there is possible no connection which can only be discovered when a close inspection of
both has been done. Would suggest that the College of Arms know this and why they objected, it could
also be that, assuming your Mansfield Family were Armorial and had a right to bear arms they did not
have the right to give its use or the College to take and use it.
Have you considered the following in relation to the information on the family:-
1. How do you know that William Mansfield who first married 23.9.1746 to Martha Henchley is the
same Wm Mansfield who is said to have married Sarah Storer 4.8.1754?
2. I have checked the IGI and also Phillimore's Marriage Transcripts and there is NO 1754 marriage
recorded, the item which appear on the IGI is a Patron Submitted item and you should be cautious.
3. Do you not think it odd that if a marriage did take place in 1754 there were no children until 1763?
Considering item 3, I have come up with a different marriage EXTRACTED 12.4.1762 Burton on Trent, Staffordshire
Will. Mansfield = Sarah Storer. This puts the birth of the first child approx 2 years after the marriage
which is about the norm. This also possibly changes the birth date of William (considering 1).
Not an answer, but hope it assists with thought process.
Spendlove
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Hi Sendlove,
You found exactly the same Burton marriage which I found once I realised that the mother's name was Sarah. As to the Henchley marriage, evidence is only anecdotal but it really doesn't matter because it is the marriage in Burton which concerns us. I had thought about the apparent time lapse between the Henchley marriage and first birth but have not done any research to determine whether, if that is the right William, there were any offspring of that marriage.
To be honest, I am loth to involve the College of Heralds because I seriously doubt that either Spring Hill College or the schools which have subsequently occupied the building have any historic right to the arms. THe schools have been using a variation as their badge since 1922 and I consider that sufficient history to offer the badge a degree of legitimacy. As I said earlier, I reckon the arms, which are cut in stone above the entrance to the building, were probably nothing more than the whim of the architect. who had sufficient ego to inlay his own initials, using black bricks in a red brick wall.
There is also the small problem that whilst the school has provided a small budget for our research I doubt it would run to paying College of Heralds bills.
Can't see your post whilst typing this but was very interested in your reference to a marriage diretory previously unknown to me. I will have to return to that and take a closer look.
Regards,
Keith
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I was interested to read this thread. I am researching Alvaston Hall in Alvaston, Derby and found that in 1826 George Storer Mansfield had given ‘benefit of certain freehold houses, lands and hereditaments at Alvaston' to Springfield College. These surrounded Alvaston Hall and were purchased by Herbert Dagley (Conveyance 29th September 1872) when they were auctioned at Derby. The Charity Commission Spring Hill College, Maseley, Yardley, Worcester had agreed it would be advantageous to sell property in Alvaston for £570' - ‘A double fronted house in the village of Alvaston in the County of Derby with stabling, barn, cowshed, piggeries, garden and orchard together with a close of pasture land known as ‘The Parson’s Green’ adjoining thereto and containing in the whole 4 acres 2 rods 27 perches or thereabouts. The bundle of documents also includes a Statement by builder William Sherwin describing houses and plots of land owned by Spring Hill College at Alvaston and he has repaired them for many years: Parsons Green, Nolway Croft, Fields on Field Lane. All sold by auction Royal Hotel Derby on 2nd August 1872. Tracing who originally owned this land - before George Storer Mansfield may provide some indication of the family in Derby.
Good luck - Helen Ainsworth
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Hello Helen,
The bundle of documents to which you refer - are these in a private collection?
If not could you give reference numbers and in which Collection they are held.
Spendlove
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The documents are held in Derbyshire Record Office, Matlock, Derbyshire. They refer to the sale of Greenhill Cottage and land, Alvaston, Derby. D5549/3/9 - 13 (5 documents).
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Don't know if these documents are relevant.
DG 9/382 28 & 29 August 1789.
These documents are held at Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office
Lease and release.
(i) William Mansfield, gent, Derby.
(ii) George Storer Mansfield, currier, Derby, one of his sons.
(i) To (ii) 2/3 of a farmhouse, fold yard, barn, stables, garden and homestead in Mountsorrel and 2/3 of 63 acres of land in Mountsorrel, Barrow, Quorndon and Rothley.
Consideration: (£)10. & natural love and affection.
DG 9/383 5 June 1799
These documents are held at Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office
Certificate of George Storer Mansfield, gent, Derby for the redemption of the land tax on premises in Quorndon, Rothley and Mountsorrel
DG 9/386 3 & 4 July 1814
These documents are held at Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office
Lease and release.
(i) Peter Still and Alexander Hale Strong, gent, Lincolns Inn.
(ii) William Henry Fremantle, esq, Stanhope St, Middx and Selina his wife.
(iii) Rev. John Eddy, Toddington, Gloucs. and Ann his wife.
(iv) Thomas Thistlethwayte, esq, Southwick Place, Hants.
(v) Dame Elizabeth Morshead, widow, Richmond, Surrey Joshua Smith Simmons Smith, esq, Hampton Court and Selina his wife.
(vi) Selina Hony, widow, Taunton, Somerset.
Mark Batt, esq, Lawell House, Devon and Elizabeth Caroline his wife.
(vii) The Hon. Frances Bowater, widow, Dalby on the Wolds.
(viii) George Storer Mansfield, gent, Derby.
(ix) William Jeffrey Lockett, gent, Derby.
(i - vii) are co-heirs of Henry Bathurst, esq, (decd) Clarendon Park, Wilts
(i) to (viii) with the consent of (ii) to (vii) 1/3 of a farmhouse and lands in Mountsorrel, Rothley and Quorn.
Consideration: £1,645 - 16 - 8 to (i) and £329 - 3 - 4 to (vii)
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Thank you very much. These are at least part of precisely the documents and records I am looking for.
Your posting is extremely helpful and I am most grateful.
Keith
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In the 1829 Glover's History of Derby, under those listed as making a donation to the building of Derbyshire General Infirmary is: G. Storer Mansfield Birmingham £21 and in a description of St Peter's Church, Derby is: Against the wall in the north aisle 'In a vault near this place lie the remains of William Mansfield who died November 27th 1809 aged 56 years.'
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Again my sincere thanks.
I will now have to make a trip to Derby in the hope of being able to photograph William Mansfield's tomb.
I jave spent eight years researching his children and the effect they have had right down to the modern day. It is only fitting that he be included in their story.
athanks agin,
Keith
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Hello Keith,
I do not think the William Mansfield whos memorial is in St. Peters Derby can be the
William Mansfield father of George Storer and siblings. When this William died in 1809
he was aged 56 years so born abt 1753 a year prior to your William Mansfields marriage
to Sarah Storer.
In any case there is no actual tomb, it would appear there is a plaque stating that
"In a Vault near this place lie the remains of William Mansfield"
Spendlove
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Helen,
I now realise I came into this part of the thread somewhat late, after your reference to the documents. For this reason I hadn't seen your reference to the houses in Alvaston. I enjoy playing long shots - I don't suppose there is any chance that they or any of them still exist?
All of this new information is mounting evidence for the wealth of the Mansfield family but what really intrigues me is where this wealth originated. I have copies of deeds pf various lands which George Storer Mansfield bestowed upon Spring Hill College and even for the early 1800s the amounts involved are staggering.
The story I have uneathed is that George was a hopeless money manager who allowed his financial affairs to get into a parlous state. I have first hand testimony that he considered his wealth an encumbrance. He owned farms on which no rents had been paid in years, others which he had completely forgotten, having mislaid the deeds and yet more where his tenants are reported to have been deliberately underpaying him over prolonged period. In the end he asked for help from the pastor of the Birmingham church which he frequented, one Rev. Timothy East. According to documents in my possession East spent some seven years putting Mansfield's financial affairs into order, The esult was a life-long friendship.
One day while the pair were walking in the garfen of Mansfield's home, originally the home of hi sister's late husband, Charles Glover, Mansfield is reputed to have asked East how he and his siters should dispose of their wealth after their respective deaths, none of them having issue. Doctor Robert Dale, a contemporary, tells us that East suggested the endowment of a college in Birmingham for the training of Congregationalist ministers, who were at the time disbarred from entry to the major universities because they would not swear an oath of allegiance to the Church of England. Mansfield is said to have conferred with his two sisters, after which all three left the large house in which they had been living and moved into very modest accomodation so that the college could be established in their former home. It all ended in tears in 1842. George Mansfield had died by then and his sisters accused East of having embezzled the family wealth. I am currently studying the Chancery Court documents but have not yet discovered the court's judgement, which is apparently maintained separately.
This is a very involved story and it is clear that East had amassed very considerable wealth by this time. He paid £5,000 in cash for a house at a bankrutcy auction and no less than £14,000 for the purchase of a coaching inn - not bad for a preacher on a weekly stipend of £7 -, which he later sold to the tenant manager, arranging a mortgage with Mansfield money, seemingly without the family's knowledge. In 1845 he was removed from his stipend, the official church history declaring that he was "more concerned with commerce than with God." At the same time he was dismissed as treasurer to Spring Hill College.
This story has fascinated and engaged me ever since 2003 and I haven't reached the end yet.
Keith
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Ok, thanks for that. I hadn't checked the dates yet. At least I won't have a wasted journey to Derby. There is of course the possibility that this memorial concerns George Storer's grandfather, also William.
Keith
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Hi Keith,
William Mansfield Jnr., was Bpt 1763 if you assume he was born about this year
he would have been abt 46 in 1809.
In The Times Newspaper 1848 there is a report of a court case Glover v East, if you do not
have access on line to this please send me a PM.
Regards
Spendlove
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Hi Spendlove,
Glover v East (1842) is the case I am currently syudying. I have a complete copy of all the testimony in the case, which dragged on until 1847, and from what I can see Sarah Glover would have quite a difficult job to prove any wrongdoing on East's part, since she seems to have used him as a financial adviser since the death of her husband in 1831 and had consented to the etablishment of a joint fund in the names of East, Glover and Mansfield from the outset. The court documents include financial accounts, from which it is clear that Sarah Glover had countersigned each year, certifying the accounts to be accurate and to have her approval.
That East was fiddling I have no doubt but he was doing so in a manner which Sarah seems to have countenanced. Her sister, Elizabeth, seems to have ben a meek creature who simply went along with Sarah's wishes. I have a digital photograph of the mortgage deed on the coaching inn, from which it is clear that Sarah and Elizabeth are granting the mortgage, arranged so that East could make a profit on the sale of the inn. However, Sarah denies any knowledge of this transaction or that she had been consulted beforehand. In his defence East claims to have exercised full control over the joint fund since its inception, claiming that it had been set up to protect the interests of two vulnerable and unworldly ladies.
My only problem is that there are various forms of judgement in Chancery. I don't know which was used or when it was passed down, so I will have to make a trip to the National Archive at Kew to get the answer.
Regards,
Keith
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I am also looking at the Mansfields of Derby - specifically the children of William Mansfield - spouse unknown.
Following children christened at All Saints Derby on;
William Mansfield - 1720
Elizabeth Mansfield - (1721-98) - married 1738, Robert Radford (1717-96)
John Mansfield - (1723-1803)
Simon Mansfield -1728 - married 1752, Elizabeth Johnston
Henry Mansfield -1730
I believe the family were non-jurors
regards
steven
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Hi Steven,
Looks like the technical gremlins have crept in. For some reason I received two copies of your post to this thread but my response to the first one I opened doesn't seem to have posted so her's anothe go. Apologies if you receive both.
It has been several years since I looked into the Mansfield family and I shall be pleased to add your information to my database, since it all adds up to a more complete picture. I'm afraid I can't offer any help with this particular branch of the family, as my interest has been pretty narrowly restricted to those members involved in the stablishment of Spring Hill College but I have added you to my list of interested parties ao that if anything relevant comes to light I will be able to pass it on.
Regards,
Keith