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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Tephra on Tuesday 16 March 10 09:53 GMT (UK)
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Hi all and welcome to this weeks Scavenger Hunt. I like this one, it's got something for everyone.
Good Luck and Good Hunting
Barbara
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Robert Cheeseman was baptised 8 May 1785 at St Paul’s Deptford, Kent and his younger brother, James, was baptised there on 22 Dec 1793. Robert was press-ganged into the Royal Navy on 23 Mar 1803 and served, mostly in the East Indies, until 8 Aug 1814. He married Jane Keeping at St Mary’s Portsea, Hants on 10 Jan 1814.
Known children are: Susannah Jane (my 2xggran) born 12 Nov 1817, Joseph born 11 May 1820, John Robert Powell born 31 Jul 1827, Joshua James born 27 Jun 1831 (but not baptised until 31 Jul 1842) and Martha born 19 Jan 1835. James Cheeseman married Jane ??. known children: Sarah Jane bap 25 Jan 1822, Susannah Isabella bap 11 Nov 1824, James Isaac bap 31 Aug 1828 (all at St Pauls, Deptford). James’s wife, Jane, was buried there 13 Nov 1829 age 31 (there may also have been an infant daughter, Jane, buried 16 Feb 1829 aged 2 months). Relevant dates/info:
17 Jun 1836 Inquest on death of Jane Sarah [sic] Cheeseman returns a verdict of manslaughter against her aunt (Robert’s wife) Jane (see attached file for relevant newspaper article)
7 Jul 1836 Jane Cheeseman pleads guilty to manslaughter of Sarah Jane Cheeseman at the Old Bailey, sentanced to two years hard labour at Maidstone Prison.
28 Jun 1838 Queen Victoria’s coronation
2 Mar 1840 Susannah Jane Cheeseman found not guilty of theft from a specified place at the Old Bailey http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-982-18400302&div=t18400302-982
6 Apr 1840 Susannah Jane Cheeseman found guilty of fraud at the Old Bailey, fined 1s http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-1296-18400406&div=t18400406-1296 and discharged to the Refuge for the Destitute on 24 Jun 1840 from Newgate Prison http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/static/Linked-records.jsp#refuge . At her admission interview, Susannah claimed that she was apprenticed to a dressmaker and did occasional work for a Mrs Collins and that she was seduced in her [Mrs Collins’] house and detained there for eleven weeks!
11 Jul 1840 Susannah Jane was discharged from the Refuge, with the permission of the Sheriffs, at her mother’s request
6 Jun 1841 census [HO/107/488/3 f23 p10]
New Street, Deptford, Kent
James Cheeseman age 45, bricklayer, born in county
Jane age 44, not born in county
Joshua age 9, born in county
Martha age 6, born in county
Next door but one
Robert Cheeseman age 58, bricklayer, born in county (Robert was admitted to Greenwich Hospital as an in-pensioner in 1842 and died there 1 Jul 1861 from liver disease).
31 Aug 1844 Jane Cheeseman (Robert’s wife) dies, aged 49, from typhus fever. Informant is “S. Jane Jones” of (perhaps) Titlar Street, Northfleet, Kent
7 Apr 1845 Susannah Jane Cheeseman marries William Jones at Poplar. Known children: William born 5 Dec 1841 (registered/baptised as Jones in Deptford), John Joseph born 9 Dec 1843 at Stowage, Deptford (registered as Jones but not baptised until 10 Aug 1851, father is named as William Warrington Jones on b/c, the name of William Jones’ father), James Thomas born 18 Mar 1851 (named as Richard aged 12 days in the 1851 census taken on 30 Mar at East Court, Deptford HO/107/1585 f13 p19), “Fred. C” [aged 6 at 1861 census, Kerby Street, Poplar RG9/305 f72 p47], “Edw. G” [aged 4 at 1861 census], Richard Joshua (my gt grandfather) born 19 Mar 1860 at 4 Chrisp St, Poplar
3 Apr 1881 [census RG11/702 f20 p33] Susannah Jane Jones, now apparently widowed, and youngest son, Richard, are living at 27 Giffin Street, Deptford.
Questions:
Where are Susannah Jane Cheeseman and the rest of her siblings (and William Jones) in the 1841 census?
Where are William and Susannah Jane Jones and their children in the 1871 censuses?
Were there any other children to Susannah Jane and William Jones (7 yrs 3 months gap between John Joseph and James Thomas) and can Fred and Edw be properly identified/accounted for?
What became of Susannah Isabella Cheeseman, sister to Sarah Jane (their brother, James Isaac, later joined the Metropolitan Police, a psychologist would no doubt draw all sorts of inferences from that!)
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Ermy I realise with Jones you have problems ;D ;D ;D
William was a carpenter on the marriage certificate, so he could have been working away or he could have been in prison.
Again Jones doesn't make it easy to find him.
Any thoughts on the witnesses at William and Susannah's marriage, William and Sarah King Biggs?
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I see on James baptism William is described as a ships joiner, could he have been at sea for periods of time?
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vague possible from 1841?
Bridge St, Greenwich HO107/489/9 folio 37 pg 23
Wm Jones 30 carpr
Jane Jones 20
both born in county
Do you have an address for William's birth in 1841?
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Osprey On William's baptism on 9/1/1842 at St Nicholas Deptford their address is 13 Griffin St St Paul.
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Hi all, apologies had to go into work for meetings, today of all days, usually I work from home ::)
Jaywit - My mum swore blind her Jones came from Wales but I'm glad to say I've found they were still in London five generations back from her, hoping that means there are fewer Jones to pick from! William Jones' father and grandfather were also shipwrights/ships carpenters at the dockyard in Deptford and he could well have been out and about on voyages at various times (Wm's father is shown as a mariner at his baptism in 1811). I'll have to have a look at the Extraordinary Accounts for Deptford Dockyard at Kew and see if I can pick him out/it says he's on board somewhere. Afraid I haven't followed up on the witnesses at all, doh.
Osprey - Actually, that's not so vague, Susannah Jane may well have gone by Jane judging from her mother's death cert. They were living at Stowage, Deptford when their son John Joseph was born 31/12/1844, they seem to have stuck around in the same area of Deptford - is Bridge Street at Deptford Bridge (I've let my Ancestry membership lapse, bad timing :-[).
Here's the newspaper report on the inquest on poor Sarah Jane
Ermy
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can Fred and Edw be properly identified/accounted for?
Possible birth for Edw G. JONES, 4 in 1861 census:
Birth, Dec qtr 1856
Edwin George JONES
Poplar 1c 567
...and a possible death
Death, Sep qtr 1866
Edwin George JONES aged 9
Poplar 1c 832
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Thanks avm, will think about ordering that death cert before the price hike unless his baptism/burial info comes to light.
Ermy :)
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Any thoughts on the witnesses at William and Susannah's marriage, William and Sarah King Biggs?
BIGGS?? Well, that's the second mistake I've got on their wedding cert then (a handwritten copy from the GRO in 1981 - perhaps I'll send it back and ask for a refund at todays prices!). It gives Wm's father's name as William WaDDington Jones, not WaRRington, and shows the witnesses as William and Sarah King Wiggs!!
Guess it could be one of these two Sarahs:
Marriages Dec 1838
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BREWER Sarah Poplar 2 297
PARKER Sarah Poplar 2 297
to Biggs William Poplar 2 297
Ermy ::)
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Ermy It looked like Biggs to me, Briggs a slight possibility but I thought Biggs more likely.
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Ermy Yor cert. could be correct.
William Wiggs widower, bricklayer married Sarah King Galley spinster at St Dunston Stepney on 20/11/1840
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Hmmm, thanks, jaywit. The names don't mean anything to me. Is an age given for William? Susannah Jane's father, Robert, was a bricklayer - maybe William was a colleague/friend of his?
Ermy
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In 1851 HO107; Piece: 1555; Folio: 479; Page: 18 he is 45 years old, born Waltham Abbey Essex. Sarah is 35 and born Northfleet Kent.
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Ermy, it was Bridge Street in Greenwich.
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images of Northfleet parish records are online on Medway Cityark
http://www.rootschat.com/links/03k9/
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Hello all - what a fascinating and tragic story!
Is this Susannah Jane's brother John Robert Powell Cheeseman in 1841?
Royal Hospital Schools, Greenwich
John Robt Cheesman age 13 schoolboy (born in county)
HO107/489/18-48/7
Milly
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Hi Milly, yes, I was certainly quite dismayed at first to find all that out - my mother had always prided herself on coming from a respectable working class family and, in a way, I'm glad she wasn't around to find out what really happened in the family just a few generations back! Yep, thanks for that, looks like a very good bet for John Robert - Robert senior followed as an in-pensioner at Greenwich a year or so later. Makes perfect sense as I think JRP Cheeseman also entered the Navy, there's an entry for a Robert Cheeseman on TNA catalogue with the right date and place of birth - will add that to the list to follow up at Kew at some point in the not too distant future.
Ermy
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Possible marriage for Susannah (Isabella) Cheeseman
to Charles Ball
25 Sept 1841 at Holy Trinity Clapham
Father James Cheeseman
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Oh wow, thanks, glenclare - being cheeky here, but is an address given for Susannah and who are the witnesses please??
Ermy
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Catching up here, another day of blooming meetings
Thanks for the extra info on the witnesses to Sus Cheeseman and Wm Jones' marriage, jaywit - maybe Sarah King Galley was a friend of Susannah's (the Northfleet connection) or maybe she knew her from Mrs Collin's bawdy house (I THINK bawdy is the word missing from the policeman's rather coy evidence at one of Sus's trials at the Old Bailey!)
Osprey, I'm not necessarily ruling Bridge St, Greenwich out - it doesn't seem to have survived but wasn't that far away from Stowage/Giffin Street, just over Deptford Creek and we know Sus ranged about from Woolwich to Northfleet in those few years.
Thanks, bearkat - couldn't seem to open the link, just got a blank white page when I clicked on it(?)
Ermy
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Thanks, bearkat - couldn't seem to open the link, just got a blank white page when I clicked on it(?)
Ooops! Don't know what happened there >:(
Try this link (unshrunk)
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/query/results/?Mode=Search&PathList=/Z4a_Medway_Ancestors/
Scroll down for a list of parishes
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Ermy
Unfortunately no address.
Witnesses are S. Tarrant and Christopher Last or Lost or maybe Loat.
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Thanks, bearkat, that looks like a useful site.
Mmmmm, thanks, glenclare, don't recognise either of those names but still looks promising, does it gives James Cheeseman's occupation as bricklayer by any chance??
Ermy
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In 1841, there is a Susannah Cheeseman with father James in Wandsworth who may account for the 1841 marriage. HO107/1069/2 folio 36 pg 6. Spotted her while looking for Susannah Isabella.
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In 1851 HO107; Piece: 1555; Folio: 479; Page: 18 he is 45 years old, born Waltham Abbey Essex. Sarah is 35 and born Northfleet Kent.
Witness to Willam Jones and Susannah Jane Cheeseman marriage:
Sarah King Galley/Gally - later Wiggs
BAPTISM:
at IGI batch C165371
or here (relevant page from bearkat's link)
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0887/
5 Oct 1817
Parents: Jacob and Hannah Gally, Northfleet. Jacob's Occupation Sawyer
Milly :)
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This has gone quiet :) I came across a newspaper story saying Jane Cheeseman and Wm Jones alias Squires were charged with unlawful wounding - case dismissed. In another story a Jane Cheeseman was also known as Jane Collins. So it seems possible that they could have used any name in 1871?
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Thanks, osprey and milly - will pop in to the library on Monday to check out all the various Ancestry references people have kindly found for me.
Hi Ebch,
Newpaper articles you mention sound interesting - is there anything to further identify the people referred to (age/occupation/address/family etc etc)? Which paper were these articles originally in (and when) and is there a website I could look at to follow up??
Many thanks,
Ermy
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Sending you a pm :)
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Times - 1847-1875
Lambeth/Marylebone/Southwark Courts saw a William Jones many times between 1850 and 1871. Just a few of many mentioned here.
This William Jones used various aliases - Lambeth Court May 1858 William Jones (a Jane Jones mentioned in case too) described as notorious housebreakers belonging to a gang based in Drury Lane.
Southwark Court Jul 1854 William Jones alias Sullivan. Bow St June 1853 William Jones alias Griffith larceny. Sept 1866 William Jones alias Smith. Oct 1862 William Jones alias White alias Mahoney, " a notorious thief" until Jan 1871 when a John Mills alias William Jones "known as a thief for many years" was sentenced to 10 years for larceny After this there are no references over the next five years to a William Jones of similar age appearing in court. Could this be the William Jones not found on 1871 Census. (Reference to an attempt by a William Jones and others to escape from Portland Gaol in 1874 - attempt failed)
Was interesting reading :)
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What a busy man :o :o :o
Milly
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Oh no, don't want any more villains thank you very much :o I'll need to check out the Deptford dockyard shipwright's pay books at Kew, if William isn't there maybe he turned to crime to make ends meet!
Thanks to everyone who has helped to chip away at this, haven't yet made it to the library as am now car-less (own car hit whilst parked on Thurday causing lampost to come down on top of it, garage's courtesy car written off on the M23 yesterday evening by another car with tyre blowout :-\)
Ermy
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Poor you! Hope you are ok. A few possible rogues in your past are of less consequence :)
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Yep, all fine thanks, am definitely counting my blessings today - number one daughter was driving the car yesterday with two friends on trip to Brighton but they walked away with just ten stitches and a few cuts and bruises between them, so, so lucky (see attached piccy of car :o)
Ermy
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So glad they are all ok. That must have been very scary!
Milly
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Possible marriage for James
St Mary Lewisham
1820 Apr 16
James CHEESEMAN, otp, bachelor
Jane HENZELL, otp, spinster
Married by Banns
Both signed in presence of Elizabeth Peavy, Ann White
Ian C
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Thanks Milly, yep indeed, but they all seem remarkably resiliant, must be youth :)
Oooooh, that marriage looks interesting Ian - unusual surname Henzell, seems to be very localised in Newcastle area according to National Trust surname profiler site.
Ermy
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Here's this weeks Scavenger Hunt......my apologies for it being a day late.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,445988.0.html
Good Luck and Good Hunting.
Barbara
As usual, this Hunt will remain open for any further information which may come in.
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I came across this Scavenger Hunt after Googling for William Warrington Jones,
my great great grandfather. He (the b.1813 one) was my father's mother's father's father.
My copy of his marriage (to Susannah Jane Cheeseman) certificate, purchased from
GRO three months age, clearly shows the witnesses as William Wiggs and Sarah
King Wiggs x her mark. Date is April 7th 1845. His father is William Waddington
Jones, Shipwright.
The informant on William Warrington Jones (c1789-1855) death certificate is
Susannah Jane Jones of 1 Bridge Street. When and where died: 9th January 1855,
18 Green St. Nicholas (Deptford). Occupation Shipwright.
Please can someone tell me about this:
17 Jun 1836 Inquest on death of Jane Sarah [sic] Cheeseman returns a verdict of
manslaughter against her aunt (Robert’s wife) Jane (see attached file for
relevant newspaper article), or possibly send me the attachment.
My tree is at: http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-74808702/cross
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Hi red rover,
Great to find another Jones descendent, I was beginning to think I was the only one in spite of my grandfather being one of 14! I've sent you a PM. The inquest (transcript from the local paper of the time) is attached to message five in this thread and doesn't make pleasant reading. I'm not very far from the Greenwich History Centre in Woolwich and have been working my way slowly through the various Deptford parish records, trying to sort the Jones's into some semblance of order. Hope to hear from you soon,
Best wishes,
"cousin" Ermy ;D
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Hi Ermintrude
I have just started to trace my paternal family tree and found that my great great grandfather's mother was Susannah Cheeseman and was then stumped until just finding you CHAT. I would be really grateful to hear we are related anf any info on family pre 1860 (Richard Joshua Jones) you may have.
regards gill
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Hi Gill,
Richard Joshua Jones was my greatgrandfather - I'm descended from Albert Joshua, one of his younger children (of the fifteen!). Be very happy to share info, I've sent you a personal message just reply to that and we can talk 'offline'.
Best wishes,
Ermy
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Hi, I'm no relation but have been following up the Jones on Wikitree.
I am working on John Thomas Jones b.1813 Deptford. Father, William Warrington Jones 1789-1855
and mother Sarah last name unknown at present.
John Thomas is listed as a Waterman and he is married to Caroline Voy married at Spitalfields in 1837.
In 1841 John Thomas was living in Gravesend, Kent, and died there in 1887 aged 75.
They had four children :Caroline Jones 19 dressmaker born Kent Gravesend
:Mary A Jones 17 dressmaker born Kent Gravesend
:Harriet Jones 12 born Kent Gravesend
:Maria Jones 8 born Kent Gravesend actually Maria Susannah
:Thomas Jones 6 born Kent Gravesend
:Richard Jones 4 born Kent Gravesend
Hope this hasn't thrown a spanner into your works!! ::) also John Thomas's baptismal record states his parents as William Warrington Jones and Sarah Jones
Marybeth