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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: lilylaces on Monday 15 March 10 13:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I've been trying to find my GGrandfather James Carpenter, (b1872, Southampton) he was a merchant seaman.
I wondered if the merchant navy was included in the military overseas lists on the 1911 census, I did buy one record (no birth year listed) but it wasn't the right one and all the others are wrong birth years. I can't find him in 1891 either. Do you think I have any hope of pinning him down in these years? I have no idea which ships he may have served on.
I'd be very grateful for any advice!
Many thanks!
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As far as I am aware - it's the same situation for the 1911 as for earlier censuses.
Unless the ship was docked in a British/Welsh/Scottish port on census night then no record was taken
If they were in the Royal Navy - there will be a record irrespective of where the ship was
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Oh thank you Carole.
I didn't realise the ship had to be in dock. ::) That explains a lot.
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Any attempt to describe the enumeration of the merchant marine in the censuses is a very complex business. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,430031.msg2947035.html#msg2947035
Stan
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I have a James Carpenter age 18 in 1889 born Hampshire on board the vessel CAMBRIAN official number 56027 GRT.48 POR. Cowes, formally Swansea. Previous vessel ATHENIAN. Rank Lad. January/June 1889.
Also a J Carpenter age 19 in 1890 born Hampshire on board the vessel ALKELDA official number 68564 GRT.87 POR. Portsmouth. previous vessel ALKELDA. Rank 2nd Cook.
July/Dec1890
I suggest these entries relate to the same man, wether or not he is the person you seek is another matter but a believe there is a strong possibility.
The crew agreements from which these details are taken are in Portsmouth record office.
Viewing the originals may give you further information.
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Thanks so much for your help Stan and seaweed.
Stan thank you for the link, I had no idea it was so complex! The Miramar ship index is vast.
Seaweed - thanks! That's very interesting and looks hopeful too, I would love to find out more about James' career, he was a merchant seaman all his life, he died in 1944. My grandmother missed him very much when he was away and was always very excited when she knew he would be coming home.
I'll have to get to the Portsmouth record office somehow! I'm living in Ireland at the moment but I'll try to get as much information as I can and plan a quick trip. :)
Many thanks again - feel I have some chance of finding James now.
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If he was a Merchant seaman all his life, I am sure he would have records from 1919 in the fourth register of merchant seamen central index.
Type into Google "Southampton city archive central index" and take it from there. It will cost you £15 up front to find out.
Cheaper than Ryanair.
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:D That's good news seaweed! I'll do that. Many thanks!
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This topic interests me very much as my gt uncle was on a merchant ship I think as a steward. He was later killed in 1917 by a torpedo off the African coast.
His name was John (Robertson) Kyle b 1886 and in 1911 was single. His young wife was devastated and emigrated from Scotland with her young son to the USA. I just found his grand-daughter last year and so we are very excited at finding out about him and how the story unfolded.
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Is this the man you are seeking?
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=3059305
CRAIGENDORAN was lost to submarine attack off the coast of Algeria.
http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/ship.html?shipID=1480
See also
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=8483459&queryType=1&resultcount=14
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Thanks Seaweed. I do have that but I was wondering how to find him on the 1911 census or is it unlikely that I would find him if he was at sea?
Marionq
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If he was at sea it is unlikely you would find him on the 1911 census.
I guess you are trying to find details of his seagoing career?
Unfortunately, there are no surviving central records of British Merchant seamen from 1857 until 1919.
The only way to find out is to backtrack via crew agreements. It can be a long and costly job with no guarantees.
Do you wish to go along this course?
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Is this the record base in Nova Scotia you have to do this through?
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The 1917 crew agreements, your primary starting point, for CRAIGENDORAN are in the British National Archive.
Subsequent crew agreements may be in one of three places.
British National Archive, British National Maritime Museum or the Memorial University of Newfoundland.
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Hi all
I'm not sure if this helps at all but The National Archives Documents on Line has an index of medals issued to merchant sailors during World War 1. The cost to download each medal card is £3.50 which should then tell you what medals were awarded.
Lilylaces - there's an entry for a James Carpenter born in Southampton in 1872 - a possibility for your ggrandfather but I don't know if you could be sure it's him.
Marionq - there's an entry for a John Robertson Kyle born in Glasgow in 1888.
I downloaded the medal index card for my gggrandfather which showed that he was awarded two medals during WW1 and also gives
a couple of numbers. 'Cert or Dis A' and RS2.
I don't know what these numbers mean but somebody with more knowledge than me might know. If these are the right entries for your relatives then maybe the numbers might help in your search for information.
Regards
Neptune
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/browse-refine.asp?CatID=45&searchType=browserefine&pagenumber=1&query=*&queryType=1
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Thank you so much Neptune!
There's an address on the card so it's definitely my ggrandfather. I don't know what the numbers stand for either. There are numbers for Cert and Dis A but RS2 is blank.
I can spend some time investigating at the weekend, thanks again, it's so nice to have some more information to work on, I seem to have reached brick walls with so many lines now.
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Hello,
Dis A will be his Discharge A. number - a unique number assigned to a seaman and is his pivotal reference. This number should always be quoted when carrying out research. The other number, RS2 is used on the seaman's identity and service certificate book.
Regards
Hugh
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Hi again Lilylaces
You're welcome - every bit of information helps - now you know your grandad received some WW1 medals and you have some reference numbers.
Good luck with your research.
Hugh - thank you for the information - it's very useful to know what the reference numbers mean.
Regards
Neptune
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Thank you very much Hugh.
Good luck with your research too Neptune.