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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Rose-Twig on Monday 15 March 10 08:45 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
My 3x Great Grandmother is causing some confusion. In the Qld BDM Database, Mary Caroline ORFORD is listed as the mother of Eleanor Alice ORFORD (my 2x Great Grandmother), however although married to John Brydon, the family story goes that Mary had an affair with a visiting Chinese Businessman resulting in Eleanor, hence another deadend.
There is a Mary ORFORD listed as being born in 1866, who I believe to be the same lady (sorry it's been a while since I looked it up and the website is now being uncooperative for me to check the exact name that is listed - there was a Mary Angel ORFORD listed somewhere too). I am unable to find any information about her parents Robert George ORFORD and Susan Dunegin (spelt in a variety of ways throughout Qld BDM). Can anyone help?
My suspicions tell me that they may have been immigrants?
Thank you,
Rose-Twig :)
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There is this death in Qld
reg no 1911/3187
name Mary Carolien Brydon
father Edward James Stone
mother Mary Maria Hannam
this lady is buried in the same grave as Daisy Margaret Orford.
as per the Brisbane Grave Finder
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_899
Brydon Mary Caroline 04 / 05 / 1911 aged 66 years
Orford Daisy Margaret 09 / 04 / 1910 unknown
there is also another birth with no father but mother Mary Orford
Emma Elizabeth Orford born 20/10/1889 reg no 003868/1889
Jenn
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1903 electoral rolls show Mary Caroline (home duties) and John Henry (carter) BRYDON at Prince St Paddington (Brisbane)
1908
both (John listed as 'labourer' at Trafalgar St, Woolloongabba
1903
George Henry (bootmaker) and Daisy Margaret (dressmaker) ORFORD at Short St, Pittsworth (Darling Downs)
1905 both at Stuart St, Dalby
1908 at Raven St, Brisbane South
1913 both at Qualtrough St Woolloongabba - George is a 'commision agent' (are there two Daisys?)
and in 1925 both at Vacy St Toowoomba - George an assurance agent. Also at the address is Thomas Edward ORFORD, cordial maker
1930 both still at Vacy St, with Eric George. Thomas is now at Herries St Toowoomba with Evelyn, Irene and Edith
Still in Toowooba in 1937
1943, 1949 and 1954 in Wynnum. This is the extent of my access.
Ah - there are two of them - one born 1905, parents George Henry ORFORD and Daisy Margaret COCKROFT. This little girl is the one buried in 1910.
Interesting that the death found by Jenn for Mary BRYDON does not record Orford in the parent names ???
Judith
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Interesting that the death found by Jenn for Mary BRYDON does not record Orford in the parent names
I thought about this, and wondered if Orford was her married name. There is a death in Qld for a William Orford in 1883
and I found this death while searching around
reg no 1954/1285 Reuben Sinclair ORFORD
father Orford William
mother Mary Caroline Stone
which to me confirmed my suspicions
and then this death
reg no 1957/19765
George Henry ORFORD
father Orford William
mother Mary Stone
now George Henry Orford was the name of father of Daisy Margaret Orford who is buried in the same grave as Mary Caroline Orford.
A search of the Newspapers on line reveals that Daisy Maraget was the infant daughter of George Henry Orford... the article is not fully available as yet.
http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/search?searchTerm=orford+daisy&textSearchScope=full&facet=titleid:16
Which leads me to think that George Henry Orford was the sone of Mary Caroline Orford.
Jenn
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there is a marraige in England in the second quarter of 1861
William Orford and Mary Stone both appear on the same page
By her death record Mary was 66 giving her a birth year of 1845c so she was only 16 but that is assuming her age at death was correct.
Jenn
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Well found, Jenn
Judith
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Rose-Twig
do you have Eleanor Orford's actual birth certificate
I am interested to see what her mothers age was
Mary Caroline and William Orford also had a daughter Mary,
now Mary marries in Qld
reg no 1890/14565
groom Corrie Robert
bride Orford Mary
then she dies in 1893
regno1893/26158
Mary Caroline CORRIE
father William Orford Mother Mary Stone.
which makes me wonder if this is the Mary the mother of Eleanor Alice Orford and possible Emma Elizabeth Orford (which by the look of the census was a family name)
the mother Mary Caroline Orford nee Stone who married John Henry Brydon was allready mid forties when she alledgley had Eleanor Alice whilst married to John Brydon and the child/children were registered as Orford
hope I have explained what I am thinking clearly enough for anyone to follow
thanks Jenn
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I think this might be the family in 1881 - thank goodness for the name Rueben among all these Marys and Williams! So there were two Mary's as Jenn has suggested.
1871 21 Britannia St St Pancras
William Orford 30 Head coachman b Marylebone
Mary Orford 30 wife b Cripplegate
Emma Orford 9 - all chn b Pancras
William Orford 6
Frederick Orford 5
Jane Orford 3
Mary Orford 8 months
1881 51 St James Rd, West Islington
William Orford 40 Head Cabdriver b Lambeth
Mary Orford 40 wife b City of London
William Orford 16 Blacksmith assistant b Bloomsbury
Jane Orford 13 b St Pancras
Mary Orford 10 b St Pancras
Ruben Orford 8 b Islington
Henry Orford 2 b Islington
And I would think this is William's death in Qld
1883 William Orford, parents: John Orford, Mary Wigley #15885
Thus the immigration would be between 1881 and 1883.
The daughter Mary's birth: http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Mary Caroline ORFORD, reg Pancras 1b 69, Sep qr 1880
I think I can find Mary C Stone (the mother)in 1851 and her birth - do you want them as well??
Judith
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Hi Jenn and Judith,
Wow ladies!!! Thank you so much for all your hard work. My head is spinning with the information you have found. I'm looking forward to going through it.
Jenn, I believe my Grandma has a copy of Eleanor's birth certificate, so I will ask her to check if her mother's age is listed.
Please let me know if there is any more information you need from me or if you make anymore discoveries.
Thanks again ladies! ;D
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You had better sit down with a strong cup of tea to digest all this!!!!!!!!!!!![ - working backwards.
Free BMD has a birth:
Mary Caroline STONE, Mar quarter 1841, district West London, (Ref Vol 2 p 234)
West London reg district includes the following which are in London City which is given as her birthplace in 1871:
Barnards Inn, Bridewell, Inner Temple, Serjeants Inn, St. Andrew Holborn Below the Bars, St. Bartholomew the Great, St. Bartholomew the Less, St. Bride, St. Dunstan in the West, St. Sepulchre, and Thavies Inn
I think this is her family in 1851, although they are in Birmingham with a hard to read address which looks like 16 Hockley, Birmingham
Edward J or S Stone 32 Head Married Book something Card Maker b St Lukes London
Hannah Stone 39 wife Paper Box Maker b St Lukes London
Henry R Stone 11 b Covent Garden
Mary C Stone 10 b St Brides London [/color] - fits with birth above
Edward S Stone 8 b St Peters London
Elizabeth Stone 6 b Birmingham
Jone E Stone 5 Mo b Birmingham
And here they are in 1861 back in London at 210 Holborn, St Giles South, London
(No detail of birthplace - just "London" except for Jane b Birmingham)
Edward J or S Stone 42 Accountant
Hannah Marie Stone 48
Caroline M Stone 20 something box maker
Edward S Stone 10 Card maker - age not clearly written
Jane E Stone 10 scholar
So now you have her parents names as well. Free BMD has this marriage:
Edward James STONE, March quarter 1839, register district St Georges Hanover Sq, and on same page
Hannah Maria HANAM
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
Heavens this just keeps on getting better!!
IGI has this entry for Hannah Maria HANAM:
Birth: 21 SEP 1806 Christening: 14 OCT 1806 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London, England
Parents: Samuel HANAM and Hannah
This is an extracted entry so likely to be correct.
There are these other baptisms at St Martin in the Fields for children of Samuel and Hannah HANAM
Ann Robinson HANAM - Christening: 19 NOV 1814 4. SAMUEL HANAM - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 16 MAY 1775
Samuel HANAM :Birth: 09 DEC 1809 Christening: 10 JAN 1810
And could this be Samuel their father??
Samuel HANAM Birth16 May 1775 Christening: 22 MAY 1775 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England - his parents are also Samuel and Hannah!
Judith ::) ;D
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Gee Judith, you are a machine! In less than a week you've tracked this line back further than anyone has managed in a lifetime!
I'm looking forward to having time on the weekend to digest all this wonderful information and enter it on my family tree... and share it with my family!
Thank you! ;D
P.S. Free BDM - is this a website accessible to anyone?
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Yes, free BMD is open to anyone to use. It has almost all registered BMDS for England and Wales from Sep 1837 when formal registration began. There are some limitations - it only lists registrations 3 month lots; it has no mention of parents (some births do later) and it only tells you the registration district.
Your HANAM family have an unusual name, and they did not move far so they have been fairly easy to find. I had a look for William Orford but there are too many and too few clues to be able to figure out which one ours would be.
The other list which you may know of is FamilySearch, sometimes called International Genealogical Index (IGI). This is compiled from church registers, or local records or from information sent in. The information sent in may be incorrect but the other entries are usually reliable. It is very hit and miss though as many churches are not included.
I had a lovely time following them through - and felt very envious as to how nicely they just 'appeared' ;D
Judith
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Judith has certainly given you a good background from the English census.
Have you got Mary Caroline's age on the birth certificate for Eleanor Alice Orford?
This should help sort out which Mary C was her mother.
Still no close to finding who the father was though
kind thoughts Jenn
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When browsing a couple of well known Genie sites I found some family trees
which seem to confirm the information that both Judith and I have found.
This sis from a public tree
"Eleanor Orford was born to to a young unwed mother who didnt want the responsiblity of a child. So, Eleanor was left with her grandparents and was a happy child.
When she was five, Eleanor had whooping cough. Later, she remembered being in her bed, coughing and coughing. The sun streamed in her window onto her bright green patterned bedspread. Her blindness was caused by this illness, but the colour 'green' remained in her memory and was always her favourite colour.
As she grew older, Eleanor's grandparents found it difficult to meet her needs, so she moved to the Blind Institute. She became a brush maker, but nothing held her back.
She married Christie Nebe. Her first child Christina was stillborn, but undeterred, Eleanor went on to produce a parcel of six boys, losing one but raising the other five without assistance. She became a very staunch member of the Salvation Army and held services in her own home for many years.
After Christie's death, Granny Nebe took in boarders and endeavoured to save their souls as well"
the three trees that I could view have no name of the father and no mention of the other birth I found for Emma Elizabeth Orford in Qld, but they do seem to verify that Emma Orford sister of Mary Caroline Jnr middle name was ELizabeth.
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Hi Jenn,
I have just spoken to my Grandma and she doesn't actually have a copy of Eleanor's birth certificate, so I will put this on the priority list to obtain.
It was an interesting chat though as Grandma said that from what she was told Mary had 3 children very young to the unknown Chinese gentleman and apparently died at the age of 19?? - which matches the 'young unwed mother' quote you've found (I would love the link to the quoted site if you have it as I'm guessing this a rather close relative, based on the nature of the entry, who may have more information).
This doesn't match anything on Qld BDMs that I remember seeing though. It would explain why the children had the name Orford and why the Orford grandparents raised them if Mary was in fact their actual daughter?
I hope this doesn't mean we're back to square one - I did say to Grandma though that perhaps Mary in fact had the children while married to John Brydon and the grandparents embarassed by the affair told the children a made up story of a young mother?? Your guess is as good as mine.
Thanks again for your help :)
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marriage from QLD Bdm's
reg no
1890/14565
groom Corrie Robert
brideOrford Mary
birth reg
1891/48330 Joseph William Corrie
father Robert mother Mary Caroline Orfond
death
reg no 1893/26158
Mary Caroline Corrie
father William Orford mother Mary Stone
The family tree is on Ancestery not sure though if you have to have a subscription or not ( I do have on)
Jenn
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OK, I've just re-read your reply #6 Jenn and am I right that you are thinking Eleanor's mother was Mary Orford and Mary's mother was Mary Caroline Stone (who went on to marry John Brydon meaning he would have been Eleanor's mother's stepfather, not Eleanor's stepfather as I first thought)?
This appears to make more sense with what my Grandma has just told me about Eleanor's mother dying young and the grandparents Orford raising the children.
Have I interpreted your postings correctly now? (Sorry, but you're right about the all the Marys being very confusing :-\)
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yes Eleanor was born in 1886 to a Mary Caroline Orford no father listed
Mary Caroline Orford JUNIOR married Robert Corrie
and MAry Caroline Orford SENIOR married John Brydon, he John would have been her Grandmothers second husband, so I guess he was her step grandfather.
Jenn
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Thanks Jenn :)
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Hi Judith,
I was just entering your information in Reply#9 about Hannah Hanam and am wondering if you've found the right birth record as according to the Census information above this Hannah would have been born between 1812-1813, but the birth record says 1806?
What do you think, is there any possibility it's a different Hannah, or could Hannah have cut a few years off her age in the Census? ;)
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Hi Rose
You are quite right about the discrepancy. I was so excited to find these entries I didn't stop to look at them carefully. I am now very unsure about this birth, especially as it would mean that she was 44 or 45 when her youngest child was born. Not impossible, though.
My reasoning in looking at it was that the names Maria and HANAM are not that common in England, however according to census and FreeBMD there are others with the same name.
However:
I note that she is listed on the two census entries I can identify as being older than her husband - perhaps she put her age down a bit so she would not seem quite so much older than her husband. The census information is what people chose to tell the census taker, and he may have mistranscribed anyway - unlikely in this case as she is consistent over the ten years. That would be a fair age gap though - 13 years.
There is an outside chance that the baby Hannah born and baptised (St Martin in the Fields) in 1806 may have died and another child born to the parents may have been named the same - this was not uncommon but is a less likely scenario. Unfortunately civil registration did not start until 1837 so there will be no official record of a birh in 1906.
The marriage certificate should give her age, her parish and her father's name and occupation - assuming the informatin given at the time was true and correct. Unfortunately the name of the church as given is also the name of a registration district so the marriage may have been in any church in that district which covers Belgrave; Hanover Square; Knightsbridge; Mayfair; Mayfair & Knightsbridge; St. John; St. Margaret; St. Margaret & St. John; Victoria; Westminster St. John; Westminster St. Margaret.
You would need to order it from UK. This information is from the London resources on Rootschat
You can order BMD certificates directly from The GENERAL REGISTRY OFFICE (GRO): http://tinyurl.com/5wn3h
Sorry I have no idea of the cost etc.
Hope I haven't led you too far up the garden path :( :o
Judith
I'd like to know what others think? - Jenn?
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hello my name is paulina
and this is what my research has uncovered about mary caroline orford (stone) B1845 london (march 1841?) D2 may 1911 (4/5/1911?? known as mary carolien (carolien miss spelt on certificate i think) brydon at time of death) Brisbane married william orford B1841 marylebone england D15 sept 1883 Brisbane they were married june 1861 st giles england they had 7 children
emma elizabeth b6/1862 clerkenwell middlesex
william edward b9/1864 st giles
frederick b1865 pancras
jane b1867 pancras
mary caroline b1871 pancras D1893 brisbane Qld Aust.....m....robert corrie 1890 has one son joseph william corrie b1891 and then she dies age 22 13 july 1893
reuben sinclair
george henry
mary caroline orford (stone) other marriage John Henry Brydon
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There is a William Orford on the ship Albany, December 1882. Film Z1973. You should go to the library in Brisbane and check it.
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im not in QLD
sadly cannot get there
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Hi Pauline and welcome to Rootschat.
Rose-Twig hasn't been on Rootschat since 2011 but, hopefully, if she has the same email, she should get a notification about your post.
Judith