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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Cockneygirl on Saturday 13 March 10 07:15 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I would be most grateful if anybody can help by recognising what my ancestor is wearing in this photo, is it a uniform or formal outfit possibly? Also what sort of date would you attach to this photo if at all possible. Any help would be appreciated please. Sorry it is not a very good photo. Many thanks, Cockneygirl.
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Looks to me like some Lodge or Freemasonry regalia ???
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Hi Ladybird,
Thankyou for your quick reply, I wondered if it might be something like that, but I just don't know. Many thanks anyway. Kind regards, Cockneygirl
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Hi Cockneygirl :)
Definitely some kind of fraternal society, possibly Masons, as Ladybird says.
Date is very difficult - all I can say is that the oval vignette was fashionable in photographs in the 1870s-1880s, but you do see it after that too so not definitive.
Sorry I can't be more helpful :-\
Cheers
Prue
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Hi,
Thankyou very much for your thoughts on my photo, do you think it may be a good idea to try to get a clearer image, so the badge he is wearing shows more clearly. There is a fleur-de-lys on the garment also and a flower I think and the initials LD.
I will see if I can make it clearer. Thankyou so much for your help. Kind regards, Cockneygirl.
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Hi,
I have now taken a clearer photo of my ancestor and I wondered if anybody might be able to work out what he is wearing, the badge etc. is a lot clearer on this copy. Many thanks. Cockneygirl
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It could be a signia for a peerage of the realm, most probally a for Lord. But await further input!
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This might be a complete red herring but , curiosity (aka nosiness) caused me to goggle the initials LD .Amongst the long list was Light Dragoons.
It showed a pic of what possibly looks like the badge http://www.army.mod.uk/armoured/regiments/1634.aspx
If you think it might be a military badge the folk on the armed forces board might help also..
bests
jed
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PS....just a thought...not sure now ive looked more closely lol
jed
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Hi
Thankyou for your replies, I must admit the prospect of it possibly being to do with a peerage of the realm sounds intriuging, would certainly be interested in more news on this. Your help is very much apprceiated. Not sure about the light dragoons though??
Kind regards, Cockneygirl.
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One other thought is do you have a name for the person? Maybe we could do a search and possibly come up trumps.
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Hi again,
I am not absolutely sure of his name, although I am certain he would be an ancestor of my father's side. Looking back I think he could possibly be Boheme or Bohemia Burt born around 1770/1775 or one of his sons, my great great great grandfather John Burt whom I believe was a master baker (born 1802). Thinking about that could it have been some sort of regalia to do with his profession.??? Possibly it is neither of them but he bears a striking resemblance to my father and other members of the Burt family. We also have a butcher who owned his own shop, but I think he might be too late for this photo. Cockneygirl
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Just guessing, but the flower looks a bit like a primrose, and the insignia on his left lapel looks like the shape of a Maltese Cross.
Gillg
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Google:
Freemasons:
The Orders of the Commandery are:
Order of the Red Cross
Order of Malta <-------------------------------------------
Order of the Temple
Each of these organizations has its own names for the officers (maybe LD is the rank or lodge?)
Paul
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Paul. Now you mention it the tie pin looks like the Sign of the Knights Templar.
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Thankyou very much everyone for all your help. So is the Freemasons Order of Malta the definate answer do you think, you seem pretty sure. I looked it up but couldnt see the actual badge he is wearing, but if you know better then that is fine by me. Any ideas on age of photo at all please?
Would you think that if this is my Boheme or Bohemia that he might be Maltese then only it is a very unusual christian name??
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Hi Cockneygirl :)
The photograph is no earlier than 1870s, and probably no later than 1890, and the man pictured looks to be in his 50s, so you're most likely looking for someone born 1820-1840.
Cheers
Prue
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Hi Prue,
Thankyou so much for your help with my photo age. Then this must be my great grandfather Henry Charles Burt, who was born 1839. He was a butcher who owned his own shop and employed two of his sons and one man.
I just want to thank everyone else who have helped me with this photo I appreciate all your replies and suggestions., and I think I now have my ancestor identified.
Kind regards to you all. Cockneygirl.
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Hullo, I would suggest the tiepin is just that and might have no connection. The emblem above the LD is remarkably like the Prince of Wales Feathers emblem. I have just googled Prince of Wales feathers and that is definitely what the emblem is. My first thoughts on the LD was Londonderry but maybe not. The emblem below the LD is certainly a Maltese Cross but I would be sending this photo to the Freemasons and I am sure they will be able to pinpoint it and if you supply the surname Burt to them they should have records about him. Everything indicates Freemasonery to me. The modern shawls are triangular but this is of the style. The clothing style is of the late 1800s
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Cockneygirl: what part of the country might he be from?
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Well, it appears to be Norman in origin but one site suggests Anglo-Saxon. Certainly today the name is concentrated in Norfolk, Kent Hampshire and Wiltshire and near Cambridge. I would check out if there is a butchers guild. I am sure they had to be registered and perhaps the records have survived both WWI and WWII bombing. He is quite well dressed so sure he must have done well in his business.
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The only place where they still have trade guilds is York as far as I am aware.
http://www.butchershall.com/guild/
I did find a person of the same name residing in SWANAGE.
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Hi sefiona,
Thankyou for your suggestions. My Burts are mostly from London going back from me to my third great grandfather, I am not sure whether my fourth Great Grandfather Boheme or Bohemia Burt was born in London, cannot find his birth details anywhere, but he certainly married in St. John Horsleydowns, Bermondsey, London in 1801. I will try what you suggest and send the details to the Freemasons with photo and see if they can help, thankyou for that idea. Kind regards, Cockneygirl
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Bingo
I think your ancestor is actually one of the Knights Templar order - look at the central part of the cross and compare to this:
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Direct compare
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I have just been looking through your other posts on the Burts. You may have the following, but I didn't see any of this in the posts:
Boheme/ia Burt is described as a mariner on the 1813 baptism - a slightly odd occupation for the father of a baker, but still possible.
Isabella Burt, the daughter of George married William George Burt (baker) son of John Burt in 1860.
What evidence do you have that the picture is of a Burt? In the class ridden Victorian society I am slightly surprised that a butcher was important in the masons, but I don't actually know anything about the masons (oddly there is a Henry Charles Burt c1829-1888 in Dorset who was a mason).
Richard
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Don't forget the Prince of Wales feathers on his left shoulder. They are of significance and will tie in somehow.
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Could the LD be Lodge Deacon ? I have no knowledge of freemasonry but understand that each lodge has officials one of which is a deacon
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ref the feathers:
Grand Master of the Freemasons 1874 to 1901 was the Prince of Wales - Albert Edward, Prince of Wales
Seems a few new Masonic lodges in 1870's were named "Albert Edward Lodge" to honour the prince.
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Hi Rjknott,
Thankyou for your comments. I know about the cousins marrying i.e. Isabella to William George, but am surprised by your 1813 baptism !! I havent seen this anywhere, do you mean the baptism of Boheme Burt? only he got married in 1801 or do you mean the baptism of one of his children? I have been searching for his birth for a few years now and cannot find him anywhere, I assume he was born about 1770/1780 ish, and as far as being a mariner that is the first clue to his occupation I have heard of.
The evidence I have that he was a Burt is a photograph album from my deceased parents.
Kind regards, Cockneygirl.
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Hi,
I forgot to say in my last post that I have today emailed the photo to the Freemasons Society to see if they can come up with anything for me. Cockneygirl
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I am surprised by your 1813 baptism !!
St John, Horsleydown
Mary Burt bap 10 Jan 1813 b 12 Dec 1812
dau of Bohemia and Ann Burt, mariner of John Street
Given that Bohemia Burt's second marriage to Jane Wilson in 1823 was in Shoreditch, it's just possible that these are connected:
5 Dec 1824 St Luke, Finsbury
Jane Burt of North St buried age 30
19 Jan 1834 St James, Clerkenwell
(no name) Burt of North St (?) age 64
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thankyou for that, I have the children down but had not seen the Mariner or John Street.Cockneygirl
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Hi Cockneygirl :)
Do you have a larger version of the second photo you put up? I'd like to be able to see the decorations better.
Cheers
Prue
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The Freemasons Library and Museum will try to identify regalia from any fraternal society, not just the Masons.
http://www.freemasonry.london.museum/museum.php
Robert
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Hi again Prue,
I am posting a larger verson of the photo, I hope this helps, thankyou again. Cockneygirl.
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Sorry Prue it the photo didnt come up any bigger, trying again, Cockneygirl
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St John, Horsleydown
Mary Burt bap 10 Jan 1813 b 12 Dec 1812
dau of Bohemia and Ann Burt, mariner of John Street
Given that Bohemia Burt's second marriage to Jane Wilson in 1823 was in Shoreditch, it's just possible that these are connected:
5 Dec 1824 St Luke, Finsbury
Jane Burt of North St buried age 30
19 Jan 1834 St James, Clerkenwell
(no name) Burt of North St (?) age 64
Richard
I have just checked the originals in the baptismal registers for 1803 and 1807 and in both cases Bohemia's profession is given as baker. That makes much more sense and is further confirmation that you have the right person.
(I checked 1813 and it does say mariner).
Ann Burt witnessed John Burt's marriage.
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Brilliant information thankyou, looks very good to me. I am also pleased that you have found Ann Burt as witness at Johns' marriage, that helps to confirm that Boheme is the right father for John, I was beginning to wonder if I had the right father connection for him.
Also the later information after Boheme's second marriage is really interesting. So I now might have a death for Boheme at last and all I need now is a birth??? which I assume from this might be around 1770 which is about where I thought. I don't suppose you have come across his birth have you or am I now asking too much?
I know St. John Horsleydowns was in Bermondsey, which is where his children were born so is it possible he might have been born around that area of London, I just cant seem to find him anywhere for birth, with that name I thought it might be easy.
I really appreciate your help Richard, thankyou so much. Kind regards, Cockneygirl.
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Also the later information after Boheme's second marriage is really interesting. So I now might have a death for Boheme at last and all I need now is a birth??? which I assume from this might be around 1770 which is about where I thought. I don't suppose you have come across his birth have you or am I now asking too much?
I think you are a very long way from confirming the death in 1834 as Bohemia Burt's. The surname and age are right; after that it is hoping that the first name wasn't entered because it was unusual.
I did have a quick look in the Horsleydown baptisms for 1767-1773 with no luck; but it is something of a longshot as people moved around so much then. You may want to try some directories as the chances are that his father was a baker as well.
I fear the photo may not be the person you want it to be unless there is more evidence than just being in a photo album.
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Okay I see what you mean about Boheme's death. Thankyou very much for looking for a possible birth. Where would I find directories, can they be found on the internet somewhere?
The only other thing that makes me believe that the photograph is a family ancestor is that he bears a striking resemblence to my father Alfred and the Burt family generally and the fact that I have identified other photos from the same album as being definate family members, in fact he is a double of my father but my father had no beard.
Thankyou so much for your help anyway, you are very kind. Cockneygirl.
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Lots of resources are listed on the London page:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,295.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=24.0
Some directories are here (but may not go back far enough):
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
Richard
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Hi Richard,
Thankyou very much I will have a look. Kind regards Cockneygirl
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Hi Cockneygirl,
My dad is a mason so I emailed your photo to him for identifying. He says he doesn't think Freemasons. He suggested try the Druids or the Oddfellows. I have googled them but they don't look too promising either!
Aly
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Hi Cockney Girl, noting your mention of mariner earlier it seems to be a bit of co-incidence that a section of the freemasons is called Royal Ark Mariner. Seeing that there is a clash of a profession of baker and mariner on a certificate perhaps this might be a lead.
Sefiona
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Hi Ali,
Thankyou for your reply and I appreciate your help, I too have been lokking at freemason sites and have found nothing, I have even emailed a photo to them and nobody seems to know. Have also looked at oddfellows and druids but again no luck. I really appreciate your help anyway, many thanks, kind regards, Cockneygirl.
Hi Sefonia,
Many thanks for your reply too, yes that does sound interesting about the Mariner , he was listed as a Mariner in the details on the birth of one of his daughters but his earlier childrens births listed him as a baker. So as you say it might be something to do with
Royal Ark mariner, I will try looking again. Many thanks for your reply all suggestions are most welcome. Kind regards, Cockneygirl
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Not a Royal Ark Mariner in freemasonry - this is their apron & collar.
I'm pretty certain he's a member of the Buffaloes.
Michael.
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Hi Michael,
Okay thankyou very much I will try contacting them, many thanks, Cockneygirl
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I think the 'mariner' entry was a mistake; all the other evidence is that the family were bakers. When looking at the entries I noticed that there was a Baker family with several baptismal entries and the father was a mariner, so perhaps the vicar just got confused!
I remain sceptical as to whether this photograph is of a baker. Did they have the time or money to join these societies?
Richard
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I think the photo is too early for the Buffoloes although I could be wrong.
Have you thought of putting the photo on the photo board asking those kind people who do a marvelous job to add some colour.
Also some-one may recognise the badges on the military board.
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According to http://www.raobgc.org.uk the Royal Antedeluvian Order of Buffaloes was officially named in the 1840s :)
Having said that, I've looked through a web image search and all the photos of BUffaloes seem to have them with medal ribbons and aprons, not wide collars like this one.
There were so many fraternal societies in the 19th century, it might be impossible to pinpoint the one this fellow belonged to...
As for having time/money to belong to one, I understand that it was extremely popular and virtually anyone in a trade or profession had the means and opportunity to join. THey were providers of insurance/assurance, pensions etc. as well as social organisations.
Cheers
Prue
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the Buffaloes motif is an Ivy leaf.
I can't see anything like that on the 'photo.
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There is a Bakers society 1858 on called Bakers' Benevolent Society. They look after retired bakers.
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CockneyGirl,
Maybe try emailing the man on this web site:
http://www.fraternalsecrets.org
On the Q&A page, others have asked similar questions and received an answer. I don't know if the site is still monitored but it is worth a try!
Aly
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Hi again,
Thankyou all so much for your replies and interest on my photo, I have emailed a copy to the Buffs for their opinion, so I will wait to see what they think about it. I will aslo try the other suggestions. I cant believe this has caused so much interest, I really do appreciate all your help, thank you so much. Cockneygirl.
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A bit late I know but i've just been watching "cash in the attic" seems the ancient order of foresters had a wide variety of badges and sashes.
Mazi's oh
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Hi,
Thankyou very much for your reply, I will look into the Foresters as well. You are all very
kind.
Kind regards, Cockneygirl.