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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: LHurrey on Tuesday 09 March 10 23:04 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm new here so I hope I'm not doing anything wrong. Thank you in advance for your help.
I'm looking for my great great grandmother Mary Ann Frances Newman. I believe she was born around 1859 (either in Victoria or the UK). She married my gg grandfather Alfred Clarke Hurrey (b. 1855 in Melbourne and d. 10 Jul 1931 in Prahan). I believe they married in 1880 in Vic. I have found a newspaper obit listing her death as 3 Dec 1936. I have quite a bit of info on there children etc. but no info of Mary Ann's parents. I would love to find out any details about her before she married my gg grandfather.
There children are:
Ethel Daisy b. 1881
Alfred William b. 1882 d. 1883
Frank Steadman b. 1885 d. 1953
Herbert John b. 1887 d. 1969
Ellen Francis (Nell) b.
Harry Ernest b. 1889 d. 1889
Thank you again for any help you can offer.
Lucy
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Death in Victoria
HURREY Mary Anna Frances
Father Hurrey Newman Jno Mother Amelia Martha PERRIAM
At Burwood 83 years 1936 Reg#10691
I would suggest the informant has given her married name as her father's surname.
Her marriage cert would give the parents' of both bride and groom
Cando
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Marriage
HURREY Alfred Clarke born Melbourne
NEWMAN Mary Anne Frances born Collingwood
1880 Reg#230
I cannot see her birth registration in Victoria but her marriage cert indicates she was born at Collingwood. Vic.
Cando
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Thanks very much Cando. I was worried that the Mary ANNA Frances was different to the Mary ANNE Frances. I know there were often mistakes made by clerks in transcibing so it could be the same but using familysearch.org I found birth records for both Anna and Anne with different years for birth (1853 and 1859 respectively). Could this be duplication do you think?
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There is no birth record on the Victorian birth indexes for Mary NEWMAN with the parents named on her death certificate. However if the birth was in 1853 that is before the commencement of civil reg in Victoria.
There are two on familysearch....one is submitted and does not even have the name of her parents. I treat all submitted records with a great deal of caution.
The other however is a transcribed parish record and the names of the parents are identical with those on her death certificate
NEWMAN Mary Anna Frances Newman
Born 10 Oct 1853
Baptised 8 Jun 1854 St Stephens, Richmond, Vic.
Father John Newman Mother Amelia Martha
Cando
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Parents arriving in Vic
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23
NEWMAN John [30 years] and Amelia [26 years] arrived April 1853 on the
ALBATROSS from Port B Fiche033 Page 008
Cando
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Thank you again Cando. I was wondering about the "submitted" thing. You've set my mind at ease that it is her. And thanks for the arrival details. Very helpful. :) You're wonderful!
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This may possibly be her parents on 1851 census
1851 Census HO107/1498/463/39
Residing at 1 Laybourne Street, St Pancras
NEWMAN John Head Married 30 years Porter b. Bulkington Wiltshire
NEWMAN Amelia Wife Married 24 years b. Aston, Oxfordshire
NEWNAN Martha Ann Dau 1 month b. St Pancras, Middlesex
Births Mar 1851
NEWMAN Martha Ann St. Pancras 1/356
Deaths Dec 1851
NEWMAN Martha Ann St Pancras 1/256
The birth certificate of Martha would give you more information ie if it is Mary Ann's parents.
Cando
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Thanks Cando,
I think I found that Amelia and her last name was Long not Perriam so Im not sure if that is them. Everything else fits though.
Thanks again
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Information on death certificates is not reliable....and only as good as the knowledge of the informant. I think it is her. No other Mary Ann Frances HURREY in the indexes.
I think I found that Amelia and her last name was Long not Perriam so Im not sure if that is them. Everything else fits though.
Where did you find the information her last name was LONG not PERRIAM? Do you have any certificates?
Marriages Jun 1850
LONG Amelia Pancras St 1/355
NEWMAN John St Pancras 1/ 355
Cando
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Hiya Cando
I think the PERRIAM is from the death cert you gave in #1 ???
Judith
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I should have phrased my question a little differently Judith ;D
LHurrey.....Where did you find the name LONG ? Her mother's name was PERRIAM on the death indexes? Have you any certificates?
Cheers
Cando...who is heading to bed before she confuses anyone else ;)
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You don't have to try very hard at all to confuse me, dear :P
Judith who thinks she should go to bed too.
Joking aside, you probably need to purchase the marriage certificate which you can download for $17.50. It should give information about the parents, birthplace etc as Cando has already suggested. You will need the registration number which Cando has laready given.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseCertImage
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;D ;D ;) :P
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I think I saw it on Martha Ann's christening details here: http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Search/frameset_search.asp (am I allowed to put in this link?)
I think I'll buy the marriage cert though.
Thank you both for your help!
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So I bought the Hurrey Newman marriage cert and now I'm even more confused. Amelia is now listed as "Amelia Martha Moore Brown" (at least I think so, the script is a little difficult to read). No mention of Long or Perriam. Interesting... I still can't find any death or burial records for either John or Amelia.
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Just stumbled across this thread while doing a bit of research, and think I might be able to fill in a bit of info about your Amelia. I've been working backwards (it's a tenuous connection!) but will try to explain as best I can.
One of my distant Switzer relatives (William Switzer Richards) of Richmond, Victoria was mentioned in a Melbourne news article on Trove saying that probate went to his widow Amelia Martha Moore Richards. This was news to me as I only knew about his first wife, Rebecca Switzer. I downloaded his will from the Victoria Archives page and found that after her death all the money went to their son, William Richards, and £25 to a daughter by William Switzer Richards' first marriage (Rachel Emma Switzer Wilson nee Richards).
There is a death for Amelia Martha Moore Richards on Ancestry in 1890 in Victoria. Her parents names are given as Thomas Brown and Amelia - so her maiden name was Amelia Martha Moore Brown.
I then was lucky enough to stumble across your thread thanks to the unusual name and twigged that Amelia had been Newman before her marriage (I had been looking for a Richards-Brown marriage)... It's indexed on Ancestry as Amella Newman and William Richards in Victoria in 1859. So looks like Amelia remarried and had at least another son, William.
Hope this is useful :) Can I please be nosy and ask what information was on the Hurrey-Newman marriage certificate? Although it's an exceptionally distant connection to my line, I'd like to add it into my file anyway.
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Hello,
Very interesting! Amelia is such a confusing woman. I thought she was a Long originally, not a Moore Brown. I have found these details below so far... but now wondering about the Long part of the story.
1827 - born Amelia Long - Aston, Oxfordshire, England (from 1851 Census)
20 May 1850 - marries John Newman, Old Church, St Pancras
Marriages Jun 1850
LONG Amelia Pancras St 1/355
NEWMAN John St Pancras 1/ 355
1851 - residing at 1 Leybourne St, St Pancras
1851 Census HO107/1498/463/39
Residing at 1 Laybourne Street, St Pancras
NEWMAN John Head Married 30 years Porter b. Bulkington Wiltshire
NEWMAN Amelia Wife Married 24 years b. Aston, Oxfordshire
NEWNAN Martha Ann Dau 1 month b. St Pancras, Middlesex
Mar 1851 - Daughter Martha Ann born
Births Mar 1851
NEWMAN Martha Ann St. Pancras 1/356
Dec 1851 - Daughter Martha Ann dies
Deaths Dec 1851
NEWMAN Martha Ann St Pancras 1/256
1853 - travel to Victoria, Australia on ‘Albatross’
NEWMAN John [30 years] and Amelia [26 years] arrived April 1853 on the
ALBATROSS from Port B Fiche033 Page 008
10 Oct 1853 - daughter Mary Ann Frances Newman born, Collingwood Vic
NEWMAN Mary Anna Frances Newman
Born 10 Oct 1853
Baptised 8 Jun 1854 St Stephens, Richmond, Vic.
Father John Newman Mother Amelia Martha
1880 - daughter marries Alfred Hurrey
HURREY Alfred Clarke born Melbourne
NEWMAN Mary Anne Frances born Collingwood
1880 Reg#230
Parents listed as John Newman and Amelia Martha MOORE BROWN
3 Dec 1936 - daughter Mary Ann Frances Hurrey (nee Newman) dies.
HURREY Mary Anna Frances
Father Hurrey Newman Jno Mother Amelia Martha PERRIAM
At Burwood 83 years 1936 Reg#10691
Death cert names parents as John Newman and Amelia Martha Newman, formerly Perriam
Happy to share any certificates with you. Would really just love to know the real story of Amelia
Cheers,
Lucy
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Hiya Lucy,
I'm not sure about the Long connection - do you know that she was definitely from England?
The reason I ask is there is a VERY likely-looking marriage on FamilySearch.org between Amelia Martha Moore Brown & John Newman in Inniscara, Cork County, Ireland. It was on 7th August 1852 - his father was John Newman, hers was Thomas Ware Brown, which ties in with the info on her death index - her father was listed as Thomas Brown. On the London marriage, though, her father was John Long which doesn't tie in as well.
Her death certificate (as Rachel Richards in 1890) might clear this up - I think (based on the one I bought from the 1850's of William Switzer Richards mother Rachel) it lists where they came from & all children born... Might be worth getting to work out if your Amelia came from Ireland.
Hope this helps - I am intriged now :)
Becky
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Hmmm,
just wondering if you have the right couple in London?
You probably have good evidence for the London life of John and Amelia but there are a couple of other NEWMANs in London at around the same time.
There was another John NEWMAN with a wife Amelia having children baptised at St Pancras in the later 1850s, and yet another couple who seem to have similar names.
The John NEWMAN 30, porter (as he is living at the same address as a railway porter perhaps he is also on the railways) and Amelia 24 that you have in the 1851 census show John as being born in Wiltshire, Amelia in Aston Oxfordshire.
1861 census shows a John NEWMAN 43, Carman,b Wiltshire and Amelia 34, b Brighton, living in Shoreditch with children 8, 6 and 1, the two older ones born in Shoreditch.
This chap's occupation is given as 'carman' (Carmen were often employed by railway companies for local deliveries and collections of goods and parcels. Also sometimes someone who drove horse-drawn trams was called a Carman. http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/c.html)
Aston, Oxfordshire is part of Bampton which could be mis-heard by the enumerator as 'Brighton'.
The other couple are John Frederick NEWMAN and Amelia Adelaide still in St Pancras district in 1861.
I just wonder if one of these couples may be the ones in the 1851 census?
Edit to add:
Have just read RebeccaClaire's post and I think her information is well worth considering. My thoughts are that the couple in St Pancras in 1851 may be the couple in Shoreditch in 1861 which, obviously, can't be your John and Amelia.
Judith
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Thank you both!
I think the Irish marriage would be the most likely option. The reason I went down the 'Long' path was from a snippet remembered by a relative but they were very unsure of the name (perhaps my rellie meant she had a looong name ;)). I'll chase down Amelia's death cert to confirm.
I do wonder where the Perriam bit came from but beginning to think it was mis-remembered/mis-reported on Martha Ann's death cert.
Becky, PM me with an email address and I'll forward that marriage cert to you.
Thanks again!
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Just downloaded an image of the death cert. From what I can see from the poor quality image, it looks like you were right on the Cork track Becky. I can see a previous marriage to John Newman in Ireland listed. For the mother it seems to list her as 'Amelia Brown formerly not Brown'... useful!
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The Cork option seems to be the right one, then. Well found, Becky.
It looks as though she was married once or twice before the Newman marriage? Maybe that's where the Perriam comes from.
Thanks for letting us know
Judith
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Ah the value of certs.
I read the cert as Thomas BROWN, Customs officer and mother Amelia BROWN formerly Not known. That is usual way to describe a mother if her maiden name is not known, on a death cert in that era.
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Aha! You're right cando. Thanks :)
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Hurrah! Interesting that he's a Customs Officer, I imagine that - along with the Ware middle name - will make him a bit easier for you to trace too. Maybe Perriam will crop up in another branch of the family randomly... I suppose it depends who was registering Martha Ann's death as to how reliable their info was.
Will PM you my email now, thanks!
Becky
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I have John and Amelia Newman in my tree. John was from Bulkington in Wiltshire. I have found no trace after 1861 census. Ancestry trees have a few mentions on the couple but nothing verified.
Sarah
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Hi Sarah,
I'm not sure we share the same John and Amelia, my couple sailed to Australia on the Albatross - arrived in Victoria in 1853.
Cheers,
Lucy
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Hi Lucy,
No my couple are the John and Amelia you found in the 1851 and 1861 census.
Sarah