RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Canada => Topic started by: RSMACL on Sunday 30 August 09 06:06 BST (UK)
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I have started a new topic heading (same McDonald family - see McDonalds in Canada stream).
I am looking for further info. on HARRIET JANE McDONALD, b. 30 July, 1891 in Cullicudden, Resolis, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland. Together with her sister Bella (Isabella) (b.28 May, 1893, Cullicudden) she travelled from Glasgow to Quebec, Canada on ship "Letitia, arriv. 9 June, 1912.
I believe they both stayed with their brothers Thomas Calder McDonald and William McDonald, at 125 Wellington St. W., Toronto. A Joseph McDonald was also staying at the same lodgings and working with bros. at same Hotel, as 'teamster'. I have failed to connect him directly to McDonald family at Cullicudden, R. & C., Scotland, although I have traced him back to his grandparents in Coldstream, Berwickshire, Scotland - however, this is a long way south of Ross & Cromarty - down near border of England.
However, in 1914, Joseph married Harriet Jane McDonald, and they were rooming at 47 Beverley St.; they later lived 5 Peter St. I have J.'s death on 31 Oct., 1919 (51) but I would like to find out more of following:
1. HARRIET JANE McDONALD (nee McDonald) - who continued living at 5 Peter St. as widow (1919). Any children, death of Harriet?
2. ISABELLA (BELLA) McDONALD - did she marry, who? any kids? death?
Thanks. Ruth
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Have also lost track of William McDonald b.21 Jun 1887 in Cullicudden. Emigrated to Toronto, Canada 1910. Lived at 125 Wellington St West with Brother Thomas C and another McDonald - Joseph (not sure if Joseph is a relative yet).
William married Mary Callaghan 1914. Can't confirm address and how long they stayed in Toronto or had any kids.
Anyone know of this William and Mary McDonald?
Thanks,
Stephen MacDonald
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Harriet remarried after the death of Joseph in 1919. Married under
Jarriette Jean MacDonald b. 1889 d/o Wm Macdonald and Margaret Calder on 31 May 1920 at Toronto to Charles Colburn Fadden, blacksmith of Toronto.
Image sent to both interested parties.
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/
The Toronto public library - Ask a Librarian feature take email enquiries and do lookups in City directories by name or address. They are specific in that they only do two requests per email but I was able to track certain individuals by using this resource.
There is also http://www.ontarioobits.com/ where you might find an obituary.
http://pagesofthepast.ca/ This is a pay site for the Toronto Star - again a very good resource.
Debbie
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Charles was born Clarencville, Quebec and I cannot find his birth in the Drouin records. His mother died 1911 and his father (Peter) died 1917. Both of their surnames were recorded as Fadden. I thought perhaps they forgot the Mc in front of it on the marriage record.
Debbie
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Thanks Debbie. Never have found them under that name! Now, I wonder if there were any kids? Ruth
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Harriet and Charles had at least 1 child. Born Oct 23, 1924 and died March 3, 1927 Toronto. Their address at his death was 10 Ethelwin Ave. Toronto. This birth can only be tracked because it resulted in a death.
Debbie
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Harriet died in 1982 in Toronto (was living at 175 Cummer Ave, #338) and is buried with her husband Joseph, his Parents and Harriet's one child from the marriage with Fadden. No obit in the Toronto Star for Joseph (which would have hopefully listed who he was survived by).
Haven't found Fadden's date of death or where he is buried yet. If I knew the date I could do the same obit search hoping to find out who he was survived by.
On the record at the funeral parlour in Toronto, it shows next of kin to Harriet as Grace Gagnon - Daughter! I have tried under Mcdonald, MacDonald and Fadden and cannot find a birth for this Grace.
I figure she would have had to be roughly 60ish in 1982 which means she has probably passed by now. Grace's address in 1982 was listed as 13 Albert St East in Tottenham, Ontario. No telephone listing for her now in Tottenham. There are 2 Gagnon's in Tottenham. I have written to both a few months ago and niether responded (and the envelopes didn't come back either). There is only 1 funeral parlour in Tottenham and they did not do a service for Grace anytime after 1982.
Any suggestions on finding Charles Colburn Fadden's date of death, Grace's birth and death?
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I just had another thought. The funeral arrangements for Harriet were made under the name Harriet McDonald not Harriet Fadden. I wonder if Grace did this because Harriet's maiden name was Mcdonald or because her first married name was Mcdonald (the same as Charles, her first husband).
If the latter, that would mean Grace was born a McDonald?
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It's also possible that Harriet and Charles divorced and she went back to using McDonald.
As for Grace, if she was born before 1920 then it would seem likely that she was born McDonald, after 1920 then a Fadden. With Grace handling the arrangements under the name McDonald and burying her mother with Joseph McDonald that may be an indication that she was Joseph's daughter and not Charles.
By the way, I saw the death registration for Joseph McDonald and it has his year of death as 1918, not 1919.
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Charles was born 1879 and Harriet 1891. I assumed (don't know why) that Harriet was Charles second wife. And Charles was buried with his first wife somewhere. I guess I assumed that because Harriet was buried with her first husband.
Will have to check and see if there's a previous marriage for Charles.
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Charles was born 1879 and Harriet 1891. I assumed (don't know why) that Harriet was Charles second wife. And Charles was buried with his first wife somewhere. I guess I assumed that because Harriet was buried with her first husband.
Will have to check and see if there's a previous marriage for Charles.
The marriage registration for Charles and Harriet does say he's a widower. On the 1911 census, Charles is living with his parents, Peter and Elmira in St. Thomas, Missisquoi, Quebec but his birth date is given as Jul 1872. He was listed as being single. Here's a link to the census entry (starts on line 10):
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census11/SplitView.jsp?id=115095
I found his birth/baptism in the Drouin Collection:
Clarenceville (Methodist Church)
Charles Colburn Fadden was born 24 Jul 1871 and baptised 7 Dec 1871. He was the son of James Peter Fadden and his wife Almira.
I can't find a 1st marriage or death for Charles.
Jacquie
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Just a passing query Stephen.
Are you saying that Harriet was buried with husband Joseph, his parents (Robert McDonald & Agnes Kerr - had they emigrated from Scotland earlier?)and one child (c. 3 yrs. age) from Fadden marriage. Funeral arrangements were made for Harriet under name of McDonald (name of first husband JOSEPH - not 2nd one Charles as you state).
Re Grace Gagnon - was she a child McDonald (MacDonald?) who married someone named GAGNON.?
Has anyone been able to find anything further re WILLIAM McDONALD, Harriet's older brother, b. 1887 in Scotland, emigrated 1910, married Mary Callaghan, Toronto 1914.
Perhaps he was killed in first World War?
Have record of him as Driver 1912-4, joined 123 Btn. C.E.F., Royal Grenadiers, Canada Exp. Forces; was 'Private' as at 8 Dec. 1915, living 26 Bulwer St., Toronto, 1919: living 484 Delaware Ave., driver (shown as 'on active service'). Maybe he died at end of war?? Ruth :-\
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Another thought - maybe if Harriet and Charles divorced, Grace Gagnon is 'illeg.' dau. to someone called Gagnon. The plot thickens.
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Hi Jacquie,
Must have been sleeping. That "Widower" on the marriage certificate to Harriet is staring me in the face! So my assumption he is buried with first wife may be correct.
It is interesting I can't find Charles and wife #1 in 1891 or 1901 - the spellings must be way off. Those must be the years he was married to her. I wonder if he was in the USA during that period. There is a USA/Fadden connection at some point in that branch of my tree.
Perhaps the 1911 census says single because he divorced wife #1? Guess he wouldn't be buried with her then.
Hi Ruth,
I think you've stated it correctly. Was Grace a Mcdonald or a Fadden - I don't know - yet. And yes I'm assuming she married a Gagnon.
(Maybe she's from Charle's first marriage - hadn't considered that option?)
William is still being elusive. I've been to the library and have copies of all the Toronto street directories from about 1890 (when Joseph, Harriet's 1st husband) first shows up in Toronto right thru to 1950. I've not had a close look at William but can follow Joseph, Thomas Calder Sr, and Isabella from address to address.
As for the illegal suggestion - I hope not!
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So my assumption he is buried with first wife may be correct.
I wouldn't assume anything. He may have lied on the registration for some reason known only to him. I've had too many "what the heck!?!?"-type moments to accept anything at face value when researching.
Jacquie
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I have forwarded you info. of entry on 1881 Canadian Census in St. Thomas, Mississiquoi, Quebec : for James Peter Fadden, wife Alvira and children, including Charles C. (9 yrs).
He was born 1871 which puts him 20 years older than Harriet (same age difference with first husband). He could have died soon after birth of their child in 1924, as Charles would then have been 53 yrs. Wonder how & where Harriet met him?
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In 1871 and 1901 in Quebec with his Parents (about 600 miles from Toronto to Montreal, Quebec).
Logic would suggest he was in Quebec, perhaps with a first wife in 1891 and 1901, but who knows - so far?
Married Harriet in Toronto. Now, how did he get from Quebec in 1911 to Marry Harriet in Toronto in 1920?
I mentioned I have the Toronto street directories from 1890 to 1950. I seem to recall a female Fadden in Toronto in the late 19teens. I’ll have to go through year by year to find her but wouldn’t it be a strange coincidence if it was a Sister?
Then one would have to figure out how, if he was visiting his Sister, how he met Harriet.
Will let you know.
Stephen
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In case you aren't aware, the 1881 and 1891 Canada census is available at Library and Archives Canada. They have a searchable by name database with census images. Here's the link:
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1881/index-e.html
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/databases/census-1891/index-e.html
Jacquie
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Yup. I think that's also where Ancestry pulls their results from too. I've tried the Library and Archives 1891 database which let's you search by name. Nothing. But the 1901 database is done by district. Not sure which district Charles is in in 1901. Going thru the 1901 records on that site will take a little longer to find something.
Also. their website is a little cumbersome. I suspect Fadden has been mis-spelled and that's why Charles Colburn isn't coming up on anybody's site. On the government's website, once you try one spelling, and there's no results, you have to enter everything again. You can't refine your previous serch liike on Ancestry.
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Yup. I think that's also where Ancestry pulls their results from too. I've tried the Library and Archives 1891 database which let's you search by name. Nothing. But the 1901 database is done by district. Not sure which district Charles is in in 1901. Going thru the 1901 records on that site will take a little longer to find something.
Also. their website is a little cumbersome. I suspect Fadden has been mis-spelled and that's why Charles Colburn isn't coming up on anybody's site. On the government's website, once you try one spelling, and there's no results, you have to enter everything again. You can't refine your previous serch liike on Ancestry.
Not being able to refine your search at the LAC site is a little annoying but you can use wildcards when searching there so it's not too much of a problem. As for the 1901 census, this website has a free searchable by name database to a transcription of the 1901 census:
http://automatedgenealogy.com/index.html
It also links to the image at LAC. They also have the 1911 census as well as the 1906 census of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta and the 1851/1852 census.
Jacquie
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Ah yes, I remember this additional option now. I did try ALL the different name variations and no Charles, no Colburn, no nothing in 1901.
I'm leaning even more heavily now that he went to the USA for a period. I'll have to check border crossings and USA census data for 1891 and 1901 too.
All this just to find out if he had a Daughter named Grace from the first marriage - jeesh! Oh well, guess it's one of those pieces of the puzzle you need to have to complete the bigger picture.
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Found on 1881
Can. Census, Quebec:
All shown as of German origin, born Canada, except Almira who is of English origin, born Canada:
J. Peter Fadden 45, Almira Fadden 42, Moris R. Fadden, son, 22 farmer's son, b. 1859; Emman B. Fadden son(later Censuses shown this son as TRUMAN B. FADDEN) 20, b. 1862, Hattie M., dau., 14, b. 1867, CHARLES C. son 9, b. 1872,
Gertrude E., dau. 7, b. 1874, Sidney Y., son, 4, b. 1877, male child son, 1/12 (one month old?), b. 1880/1. Next dau. born after Census: Blanch M., b. 1882.
1891 Can. Census: number of likely entries, but cannot access under my Ancestry.com membership. Perhaps someone else could help there?
1901 Can. Census: Quebec, St. Thomas, Missiquoi:
James P. Fadden b. l Oct.1833 (67) Farmer, Employer.
Almira W. Fadden, wife, b. 20 Sept., 1838 (62)
son Truman B. Fadden, b. 21 August 1860, 40, single, Farmer's son
dau. Blanch M. Fadden, b. 26 May, 1882, 18.
Uncle: Rodney J. Fadden, b. 26 Sept., 1848, 52, single. All are stated now as of DUTCH origin, including Elmira. No Charles on this census.
1911 Can. Census, Quebec.
James Peter Fadden, 76, Elmira wife 72 (shows now as of SCOTCH origin!);
son Truman B. Fadden, 50 yrs., single
son CHARLES C. FADDEN, 32 yrs. single. *"Domestic"
* For Charles,
on this Census under column 18: 'Employment at other than at chief occupation if any' - it shows date 2.9.'04. .. so Charles has been Domestic since 2nd Sept., 1904 to date of 1911 Census.
Stephen (bigmac1x) has been wondering why Charles went 800 miles from Quebec to Toronto, and there met Harriet McDonald, to marry her there in 1920, and conjectures he may have been staying with one of his sisters or brothers in Toronto? Any ideas?
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I'll have to check border crossings and USA census data for 1891 and 1901 too.
The US census were taken in 1890 and 1900 however the 1890 census was almost entirely destroyed by fire. I've done a few searches of the 1900 census but the only possibles had the wrong birth month listed.
1891 Can. Census: number of likely entries, but cannot access under my Ancestry.com membership. Perhaps someone else could help there?
I gave a link a few posts back for the searchable by name with images 1891 Canada census database at Library and Archives Canada.
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Thanks for all the details Ruth. We had these years already but some of the details were hard to read.
Too bad about the fire - should have kept them in each State for storage. I did the 1900 USA search with no luck.
Have tried all the links suggested above, even using tons of spelling variations, and no Charles Colburn in 1891 or 1901.
Checked the border crossings - nope.
The only other thought was to go to the actual 1901 census sheet with James, Almira and 3 kids and scroll thru all the sheets from that district to see if Charles is nearby.
One other note: the un-named child on the 1881 census (1/12 months old) I think is Blanch.
Still have to check the Toronto street directories for Faddens.
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Have answered your email. Didn't like to list the particular tree site on this site? Had a passing thought - Harriet & sister Isabella landed at QUEBEC in June 1912. Maybe they got to know Charles then. He may have caught up with her again later, after wife died, perhaps.
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I think that's a long shot.
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Charles' sister, Hattie May, married Robert Nokes and on the 1900 US census is in Swanton, Franklin County, Vermont with 3 children. Her son Arthur J. died in 1975 and lived in Swanton (his wife died at 101 years of age). This location is just across the border from Clarenceville and Missoquoi County in Quebec where the Faddens lived. There is also a record in the Drouin collection that Charles' brother, Truman Barber died at Rouses Pt, New York State in 1928 but is buried at Union Cemetery in Clarenceville. Rouse's Point is on the opposite side of Lake Champlain from Swanton, Vermont. Perhaps this also gives you another area to search for Charles around 1900. Hattie May had been married 7 years in 1900. Online searches will pull up a family tree for her and Robert Wilbur Nokes.
Charles' father James Peter( b. 1844) was the son of Comfort Fadden and Lucretia Orstuin. Their marriage in 1832 was recorded in the Town of Arlburgh Vermont. There are many online references to Comfort Fadden, some with contradictory information but showing a Vermont/Quebec connection.
Debbie
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Husband has ancestors WILLIAM MacDONALD (SURNAME changed from Mc to Mac on arrival in Canada) - he emigrated to Canada 1910, was working as Hotel Teamster, 125 Wellington Street, Toronto, and living with brother Thomas Calder MacDonald, and future brother-in-law Joseph McDonald (apparently no relative).
Two of his sisters Harriet Jane and Isabella (Bella) emigrated in 1912 on ship "Letitia" and joined brothers at 125 Wellington St.
I have had a lot of kind help in the past with Harriet Jane.
WILLIAM was b. 21 June, 1887, Resolis, Ross & Cromarty, Scotland, m. in Canada on 7 Jan. 1914 to MARY CALLAGHAN (b. 1889, Greenock, Scotland) (Parents: John Callaghan 1868-, and Sophia Canavan).
I know he was a Driver, joined up 8 Dec. 1918 123 Btn. Royal Grenadiers, Canada Expeditionary Forces, living 26 Bulwer St., Toronto, when enlisting. 1919: Living 484 Delaware Ave. ("on active service" - driver).
Lived 327 Euclid Ave., Toronto with sister Harriet Jane M(a)cDonald.
Can anyone help with further info. on William and his wife Callaghan - any kids, etc.
Also on sister "BELLA". No further info. - altho. I have been sent an entry in the Californian Death Index 1940-97 for a: Isabella Wiles (Isabella McDonald), Soc. Sec. No. 5656425375 - died 31 Oct., 1986 in Los Angeles (Mother's maiden name CALDER). Anyone help with her husband, date, any kids. Thanks again in anticipation.
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Hi,
Go to
http://www.torontopubliclibrary.ca/
and click 'Ask A Librarian'. Explain your request & they can do a look-up in the city directories. I suggest you give them a specific year or two as they won't want to search 80 years of directories. If you know the year they lived at Euclid Ave. start there & ask for a 5-10 year span after that to narrow it down.
Good hunting.
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Not sure if this was found on any of your other posts, but I didn't find it. There are several others listed with the
same parent's names, so might be from that family....but thought I'd post just in case she turns out to be yours.
Isabella Margaret Darragh died July 8 1925, Fort Frances East, Rainy River, Ontario
age 47 / born c 1878 to parents Wm. & Margaret Calder, husband's name....Chas Darragh
http://search.labs.familysearch.org
There is a marriage on ancestry of a Bella Locke to a Charles Darrah which has same parents listed...
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Thanks for the lead. But not our Isabella (Bella). Ours b.1894 in Scotland.
This Isabella b.1877 in Winnipeg. May be another branch.
Really strange coincidence with the parents names though.
Stephen
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Sorry, yes, there were a few Calder mcDonalds in Red River Settlement...
Judging by your addresses/dates shown I imagine you've gone through the Toronto directories available online...
Just a quick look at 1912 doesn't have surnames that correspond with your 1912 address given..although there is a
Thomas / driver / at 1 - 54 Hayden in 1912...
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Might%20Directories%20Ltd.%22
You can search in 1920 & 1922 as well...
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Yup. In fact I spent quite a bit of time at the reference library downloading the images of the pages I wanted. I did this for my two family lines Troke and Mc(Mac)Donald from the time the names firsat appeared in Toronto, about 1890 I think. I went right through to 1950. Also did this for the street names I knew my ancestors lived on.
Have laid them out year by year on my desk (1913 to 1921 so far) and tried to follow where each one lived and moved to each year. Easy for some. Not so for others.
Joseph McDonald (no relation, until he married my Great Aunt Harriet McDonald) fortunately had his occupation (Teamster/Foreman) and company he worked for (Hendrie & Co) shown year after year (thank you!)
William (occ: Driver in 1913) on the other hand, in 1913 lived at 125 Wellington St W with his Brother, Thomas Calder McDonald and the above Joseph (guess that's how Joseph met Harriet) until 1914. William married Mary Callaghan in Apr 1914 and moved out. In 1914 there is not a William shown as a Driver. Checked to see if there was a Mary McDonald also listed hoping to find a common address - nope. There are 26 Williams in 1914 and a comparable number right thru to 1921. No Drivers! Which one is he?
Did this same exercise for Harriet and Isabella (Bella) but really haven't pinpointed which is which.
I do know Harriet had a second marriage to Charles Colburn Fadden in 1920 and were living on Ethelwin Ave in1927. After that - haven't got there yet. I know she died in 1982 in Toronto. Her record at the funeral parlour shows next of kin as Grace Gagnon, Daughter. Have no idea who she is. What happened to Charles - don't know either.
This past weekend I found Bella's death (I think) in LA, California. Birthdate is a match 28 May 1893. Mother: Calder. Shows death 31 Oct 1986. Married name Wiles. Haven't found husband yet - or where she's been from 1920 in Toronto to 1986 in LA!
Gotten way off track here but at least everyone's up to date now. If anyone can shed any light on missing info - thank you in advance!
Stephen
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I had thought to start a "new topic" with these two, siblings of Harriet McDonald who has extensive coverage in another post site. However, there are considerable mentions of these two under Harriet's topic - so perhaps my post should have been included on bottom of Harriet.
MODERATOR - can you help?
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I did commence a new topic under William & Isabella McDonald, to try and obtain more info. on these two siblings. However, I have asked the Moderator to perhaps combine the two topics, as I realise a number of posters have added info. about William and Isabella on above topic. Thanks
Moderator Comment: Topics merged
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Thanks, Moderator.
Now a new 'sub-query' - have found entry for Isabella McDonald - she now has been married (shown as MacDonald) to George Frederick Murrell 1915, but he died in 1918.
Also found entry on shipp. register for Isabella Murrell, on "Pretorian" leaving 5 Oct. 1920 from Glasgow arriving Quebec on 14th Oct., 1920. On Register, she also has two children - Isabella J. Murrell 4 yrs. born Canada, and George F. born Canada (but can't make out note in age column). Have blown it up but still can't work it out. Anyone help??
Isabella must have remarried as on her Death Certificate at 91 years, she is now Isabella WILES??
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AND, her death is in Los Angeles, California. So somewhere between 1920 in Toronto with 2 kids and 1986 in California there's at least one more marriage.
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I found a marriage for Isabella , 22, to George Frederick Murrell and her parents are listed as William McDonald and Margaret Henry. I thought her mother's maiden surname was Calder?
I've also found a marriage for Isabella Murrell, 27, to a Wilmont Wiles in 1920 but that Isabella's father is George MacDonald and her mother's name is listed as unknown.
Both marriages took place in Toronto.
I also found the incoming UK passenger list that Isabella Murrell, 26, widow, and her two children were on in June 1920. The address they were going to was in Norwich. George was listed as being either 4 or 9 months on the passenger list. Although it looks like a 9 I think it is a 4 because the Canadian passenger list they were on looks like he was 8 months old to me.
Jacquie
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Good eye! It should be Margaret Henry Calder. Would have had to squeeze it in (too much trouble?) George died 25 Oct 1918. Have found his parents and siblings.
Isabella (we think) had 3 kids. 1. Isabella J, 2. George F (these 2 came back on a ship in Oct 1920 from Glasgow with Mom). Third was Daniel George died 28 Oct 1919 at 6 months old.
Desparately trying to find the birth records of the first two kids. Have tried all over and no luck.
I discovered Isabella's death in LA, Cal in 1986 with the surname Wiles. There's a 1920 marriage in Toronto to Wilmot Orley Wiles which looks perfect except her Father is George McDonald and Mother is unknown.
Any suggestions?
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Ontario birth registrations from 1914 on are currently protected by privacy laws.
It's possible that someone goofed when filling out the Wiles marriage registration. Given Isabella's first husband's name was George, perhaps her husband supplied the information and gave the wrong name for her father and didn't know her mother's name. I know that's pushing it but I've seen stranger things written on marriage records.
Jacquie
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The California death index has a death for a Wilmot Robert Wiles who was born 3 May 1926 in Canada and died 5 Sep 1985 in Los Angeles County. His mother's maiden surname is listed as MacDonald.
There's also a death for a Raymond Murray Wiles who was born 3 Dec 1923 in Canada and died 14 Feb 1997 in Los Angeles County with a mother's maiden surname of McDonld.
The first death seems to tie in with the Wiles/MacDonald marriage but if the second one is the same couple then it doesn't fit with the timeline unless he assumed the name Wiles after Isabella marriage Wilmot.
Jacquie
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Yes, I remember you telling me long ago that the only kids we'll find born after 1914ish were ones that have died.
You know, it was probably the man's job to go and get the marriage licence and you could be quite right. Too bad she didn't correct it when she had to sign the document.
I just looked and there's no place for the Bride to sign. Damn! And there's 2 styles of writing. Someone should have caught this before their marriage day.
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Both look good to me. Isabella (McDonald) Murrell was married to Wilmot Orley Wiles Nov 23 or 25, 1920.
Did you find Wilmot's death?
I still have to find when Isabella and hubby went to the US. I think the border crossings database should have that. Hopefully long ago and the 2 Murrell kids are with her (them).
Just went thru all the 1962 voter registrations for Los Angeles County and they're not there in 1962. Of course, could have been living outside of LA too.
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I saw a border crossing document for a Wilmot Robert Wiles who moved to New Jersey with his wife. The birth date was a little off (23 May instead of 3 May). He listed his closest relative in Canada as his father Wilmot of Toronto. The document was dated 12 Jul 1947. If this is the correct family then it would appear Wilmot Sr. died after 1947 and privacy laws in Ontario cover that period. Currently death registrations are restricted after 1939. It is possible that Isabella went to the US after her husband died especially if some of her children were living there.
Jacquie
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Third was Daniel George died 28 Oct 1919 at 6 months old.
FYI - the death registration indicates his name was Donald, not Daniel.
Jacquie
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Found George F. Murrell aged 10 yrs. on 1901 England Census in Heigham, Norwich, parents Charles & Charlotte Murrell, 6 siblings, so that fits with Isabella going to Norwich in 1920.
1911 Canada Census shows him as Boarder, aged 20, Butcher, (emigrated 1910) at Dist. 125 West Toronto, address 29 Fuller (?).. can't interpret St. name.
On her trip to and from England in 1920, how do we reconcile age of youngest child George (4 mths. out and 9 mths. in) with death of father George in 1918?????
Isabella didn't waste much time getting married (Nov.1920) to next husband - guess women in those days needed someone to support them, and their children.
Just struck me - maybe the baby George was premature child of future husband Wiles? Altho. that wouldn't have gone down too well with Murrell in-laws in Norwich!!
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Donald/ Daniel seemed to have been an interchangeable name, in Scotland.
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I take it Wilmot Robert and wife - but no kids on that border crossing?
You're right, Donald George - should have used my magnifying glass!
I guess with the damn privacy laws the only way a lot of the missing years will get filled in is if we happen to stumble across a Wiles or Murrell descendant.
So, from your thoughts, Isabella stayed here with Hubby, the two Murrell kids, 2 (that we know of) Wiles kids wound up in La. Any idea what happened to the 2 Murrell kids? Isabella J and George F Jr?
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On her trip to and from England in 1920, how do we reconcile age of youngest child George (4 mths. out and 9 mths. in) with death of father George in 1918?????
The incoming UK passenger list indicates he was either 4 months or 9 months. Given that the incoming Canadian passenger list when they returned indicates he was 8 months (that's what it looks like to me) then I assumed George was actually 4 months on the incoming UK passenger list and not 9 months.
Jacquie
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Can someone send me the UK Incomng passenger list. I've been trying to find it for 2 days with no luck. Thanks,
Stephen
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UK passenger list was the Metagama arriving 15 June 1920 Liverpool from Montreal.
Children are indexed in ancestry as Muriel for last name. A search for Isabella Muriel b. 1917 should bring it up for you.
Debbie
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What I meant was - if husband George F. Murrell died in 1918 (as per Death Cert.) how come Isabella has a child 'George F. Murrell' who is aged 4 mths. in June 1920 - travelling with Mum and sister Isabella J. (b.1917) to England?? (Long gestation period like the elephants?!?)
Isabella returned from Britain in June 1920 and was remarried to third husb. WILES in Nov. 1920 so I did wonder if this child is a Wiles' offspring, before marriage!!
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There are Form 30As for Isabella June Murrell age 4, George F. Murrell 8 months and their mother Isabella Murrell for their return home on the Pretorian. Isabella stated she had been out of the country visiting her mother.
Debbie
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What are Form 30A's, and this still doesn't explain the birth of young George so long after death of husband?
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Form 30As are found in the immigration/shipping lists on ancestry for the years 1919-1924. These forms were filled out by passengers in the UK and listed place of birth, Canadian contacts and British contacts, reason for immigrating etc.
This documentation gives you the middle name of Isabella's daughter but wasn't posted to try and solve the parentage of George.
Debbie
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Hi Debbie,
Tried the UK Incoming search using the parameters you suggested. Nothing. Tried all kinds of variations and still nothing.
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Isabella's Daughter's middle name, June. Should probably be Jane after her Aunt's second name - but who knows for sure?
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Jacquie & cosmac...Wow, you're both doing a bang up job of slugging away at this thread... ;D I'm amazed at how much has been found considering well into the 20th century...J.J.
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With so much talent working on this mystery - how could we fail?
Stephen
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Hi Debbie,
Tried the UK Incoming search using the parameters you suggested. Nothing. Tried all kinds of variations and still nothing.
If you search the incoming UK passenger list database using the following you will find at least daughter Isabella:
Isab* Mur*l
When I search using that I get 4 hits but only one of them is for a voyage dated 1920 and it is listed as Isabella Muriel born about 1917.
As for son George, if he was illegitimate then Isabella could have covered it up by registering his birth under her late husband's name (maybe that was why she married her 2nd husband so quickly). Isabella certainly couldn't have been pregnant with him after her husband died because she would have been pregnant with Donald George who died in 1919 at age 6 months.
Jacquie
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What frustrating websites! I enter the same details on ancestry.ca, uk and com and get different answerrs. Finally got the right ship.
Interesting they went to Liverpool - unless the ship went on to Glasgow.
Stayed in UK for 4 months.
George F Jr on the way over is 9 months old.
On the way back he is 8 months old.
Both ages don't make sense.
Assuming George Jr's 9 months old on the way over is correct. Then he was born Sep 1919. Conceived Dec 1918. Dad died 2 months earlier.
The younger age on the way back still doesn't work.
We know Isabella had Daniel in Apr 1919. Died 6 months later in Oct 1919. This means he was conceived Jul 1918, 2 months before dad's death. That works.
AND, Daniel b.Apr 1919 and George Jr b.Sep 1919. I don't think so!
What am I missing?
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Assuming George Jr's 9 months old on the way over is correct. Then he was born Sep 1919. Conceived Dec 1918. Dad died 2 months earlier.
The younger age on the way back still doesn't work.
We know Isabella had Daniel in Apr 1919. Died 6 months later in Oct 1919. This means he was conceived Jul 1918, 2 months before dad's death. That works.
AND, Daniel b.Apr 1919 and George Jr b.Sep 1919. I don't think so!
What am I missing?
That George wasn't 9 months when he went to England but was actually 4 months. Going from the return information he was 8 months when they came back after being there for 4 months. I think what looks like a 9 on the incoming passenger list is actually a 4 with the top closed in a loop, not a 9. That would make George's birth date around Feb 1920.
And you've got Daniel on your brain ;) - Donald George - remember.
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So grateful to everyone who has been 'banging away' on these two ladies and discovering so much of their history.
Could we please just go back to our Harriet for a moment? ::)
Both cousin Stephen (bigmac1x) and I now think that Harriet Jane McDonald's first husband JOSEPH MCDONALD (she was b. 30 July 1891 Resolis, Scotland) he was born 16 July, 1967 Coldstream, Scotland), could have been married before in Canada, as he was 41 yrs. when he married Harriet (23 yrs) in Toronto, Canada on 9th April, 1914.
Joseph emigrated to Canada in 1890 when 23 yrs. of age. Surely it seems possible that he would have married at some stage soon after that.
Have fairly comprehensive coverage of his working life in Toronto up to and including 1918 Census - he worked as a Driver/Foreman for "Hendrie & Co.", Cartage Contractors for the Canadian Pacific Railways. He died in Oct. 1919, Toronto, Canada (51 yrs.). Haven't also been able to locate any children, either of his possible first marriage, nor of the marriage to Harriet. How do I trace any earlier marriage? Thanks once again for all your great help, Aussie Ruth
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The marriage registration to Harriet indicates he was a bachelor. It could be his first marriage. It's not unheard of. I don't see any other marriages for him in the Ontario database.
Jacquie
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Thanks Jacqui - well that clears that up. Now, on to the next problem!!!
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Hi Debbie, Jacquie and Ruth,
Thanks for all your help with these elusive McDonalds et al.
(Thanks for the reminder Jacquie. Donald, Donald, Donald.)
I blew up that UK Incoming Passenger List and never in a million years would I have suspected it was a 4. It looks so clearly like a 9. BUT, with his age on the return trip being 8, and they were there 4 months, 4 does seem to be what it should be. But still couldn't be George's Son. Need his birth record! I've heard they will release records for relatives, is that right?
I went through the censuses and Toronto street directories from 1890 to 1950. Initially to track Joseph as he moved around. Would have been nice if every directory had him as Joseph and not Jos in one year and as John in 1903! He was easy to follow around. The 1901 census has him living with his Sister, Janet (Widow) and her Son at 69 Teraulay St in Toronto. Shows him as Single. No indication of any Wife isabella on the directories up until he married Harriet in 1914. As I got into the 19teens I followed Harriet and Isabella after they arrived in Toronto. Harriet disappears after she married Joseph and then reappears after he dies as a Widow. Seems Wives often didn't get listed in these directories. Harriet disappears again after she remarries to Fadden. The directories for Charles C Fadden after their marriage in 1920 are really not there at all either. I know their address. I'll have to check them that way. And then in 1927 Charles starts showing up on a semi-regular basis. I wonder if they moved to Quebec for a few years? No that's not right - they had a Son here who died here at age 3.
Isabella and Harriet worked at Simpsons Department Store in 1914. Isabella marries in 1915. The Isabella at Simpsons disappears. BUT in 1915 ther's an Isabella working across the street at Eatons Department Store. And she continues to show up as Isabella McDonald even though she married Geroge Murrell in 1915. Will have to pull up Murrell directories to see if he's living at the same address as this Isabella working at Eatons. He dies 1918 and she remarries to Wiles 1920. In 1925 this Isabella is still showing up as a McDonald and still a Clerk at Eatons. I wonder if she's the right one? I'll have to do a Wiles search from 1920 forward in the directories and see if his and this Isabella's address are the same.
Sorry for rambling. Here's the last bit. While following Joseph around I came across enlistment papers for Robert William McDonald b.26 dec 1897 and a William McDonald b.6 jul 1893. Both list Mother as an Isabella (this is where we thought Joseph might have had a first wife with that name). BECAUSE, Robert William in 1918 shows his address as 5 Peter St. This is where Joseph lives with Wife Harriet!. These two have to be related to Joseph somehow. If Joseph is not their Father, he must be an Uncle. What do you think?
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I've heard they will release records for relatives, is that right?
IIRC, first you would have to prove that George is dead and then you would have to meet the criteria of next of kin to obtain a birth registration for someone whose birth is covered by privacy laws. This site has a link to the terms and conditions that apply to who can order a certificate:
https://www.orgforms.gov.on.ca/eForms/start.do?lang=en
I found a birth for Robert William McDonald (he was born in September, not December according to his attestation papers and birth registration) and he was the son of William McDonald and Isabella Campbell. According to William and Isabella's marriage registration, William's parents were Robert McDonald and Agnes Pringle Kerr so William was Joseph's brother and Robert William was his nephew.
I also found the birth for William McDonald and his parents were James McDonald and Isabella Florence.
Jacquie
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The following marriages are in the Ontario marriage database:
William McDonald, 30 born Coldstream, Scotland, son of Robert McDonald and Agnes Pringle Kerr married Isabella Campell, 30, born Caithness, Scotland, daughter of George Campbell and Sophia Levach on 14 Oct 1896 in Toronto, York County, Ontario
Robert McDonald, 24, born Berwickshire, Scotland, son of Robert McDonald and Agnes P Kerr married Margaret E Clark, 31, born Manvers, daughter of James Clark and Sarah Fromey(?) on 19 Dec 1894 in Manvers Twp., Durham County, Ontario.
Robert McDonald, 46, born Coldstream, Scotland, son of Robert McDonald and Agnes Pringle Kerr married Jessie Anne Hastings, 31, born Metz Ontario, daughter of Alexander Hastings and Martha Henderson on 4 Dec 1918 in Woodstock, Oxford County, Ontario.
John Kerr McDonald, 40, Coldstream, Scotland, son of Robert McDonald and Agnes Kerr married Eliza Jane Irvine, 36, born Toronto, daughter of Gerald Irvine and Charlotte Crozier on 30 Mar 1915 in Erindale, Peel County, Ontario.
Agnes McDonald, 23, born Scotland, daughter of Robert McDonald and Agnes Care married William Steel, 35, born Scotland, son of John Steel and Mary McPherson on 29 Mar 1892 in Peterborough, Peterborough County, Ontario.
It seems likely that Agnes McDonald's mother was actually Kerr, not Care and her or William Steel's accent caused the misspelling.
Jacquie
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Hi Jacquie,
I think we've been doing the same things today - and fortunately came to the same conclusions re Robert William. He was Joseph's Nephew.
Discovered the second enlistment name I gave you, William b.1893 is not related. This is the one you were referring to when you said:
I also found the birth for William McDonald and his parents were James McDonald and Isabella Florence.Right?
I think you've filled in a few other blanks too with the list of marriages. Thanks. I'll check those out tomorrow as tonight is bowling night. Yay!
I'm going to pop up to the library tomorrow as well to do a couple of those name and address thingys I mentioned earlier. Thanks again for ALL your help, guidance, support and confirmation.
Stephen
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Does anyone remember:
I seem to recall someone sending me a border crossing from Canada to the USA about 1947-1949. It was either a link or an attachment.
It was one of Isabella's Sons, Raymond or Wilmot Wiles going to the USA. With one of them was “Mother” in the upper right box.
I have found both of Raymond’s and Wilmot’s immigration cards and no “Mother” to be seen on either. I must be going bonkers!
One was with his Wife, Lorraine. The other was with his Son, Ronlad (but no wife).
Does any of this ring a bell?
I’ve searched for Isabella, Bella/Wiles, Mcdonald and nothing. I know she had a USA SSN in 1951 and died in California in 1986. There's a border crossing somewhere.
Maybe it was sent by email. I guess I’ll have to go back through all my emails and search for a key word.
Thanks for any help.