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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: orangecat on Sunday 07 March 10 16:27 GMT (UK)
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I am a Drawbridge living in Canada. I am looking for information on my Grandfather Frank Arthur Drawbridge. He had brothers Otto, Ernest Alfred, Percy Samuel John, Charles Henry Victor, William Charles. Sisters were Annie, Ellen, Beatrice, Fannie.
His mother was Annie Booth , his father was William.
Any info would be appreciated.
O1dgobbo , it seems you are a Drawbridge or have a link.
I have attached photos of
Otto Drawbridge's family,
Frank and Ernie in Guelph Ontario circa 1950's
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Probably best to start a new thread and include all you know about the names - Dates and place of birth etc.
Few people will look on a wingy post about Ancestry for potential look-up requests :)
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a close match to those names can be found in the England 1901 census
RG13; Piece: 892; Folio: 118; Page: 12 Burwash Parish in Sussex
open a new thread and I will transcribe the names.
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Sounds good. I just found this thread by searching for Drawbridge, and added to it.
Mort29 I've been reading some beginner info while responding and haven't found clear info on starting a new thread.
jack
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OK, well posting in this Forum doesnt increase your post count, which you need to receive PMs, so I cant go that route yet.
Otherwise, see if you can navigate to the 'Census Lookups Requests' Board - click this link - http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,48.0.html - and then click on the NEW TOPIC button :)
Paste in the names, and known dates and places.
Moderator Comment: moved from Lighter Side
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Thanks Mod - I wondered if it would be 'spotted' - lets hope that OC can find it again :)
1891 is best to show all the names (1881(Goudhurst) only the 2 eldest, and by 1901 (Burwash) they are leaving the nest)
1891 RG12; Piece: 778; Folio 116; Page 7 Burwash (ticehurst District): 'Witherenden'
William Drawbridge 35 Head of Household born Kent, Goudhurst: Miller & Grinder
Annie J Drawbridge 33 Wife born Sussex, Horsham
Ernest Alfd Drawbridge 15 son born Surrey, Horne (Godstone in 1901): House Boy Domestic
William C Drawbridge 11 son Goudhurst
Beatrice J Drawbridge 9 dau ditto
Charles H V Drawbridge 7 son ditto
Percy John Drawbridge 5 son ditto
Arthur F Drawbridge 3 son ditto
Annie Drawbridge 1 dau Burwash
Ellen Drawbridge 2 months Burwas
John Drawbridge 22 Brother born Goudhurst: Millers Loader
The only additional child in the 1901 census is:-
RG13; Piece: 892; Folio: 118; Page: 12 (same address)
Otto Drawbridge 2 born Burwash
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This has to be the parents marriage - but it means that the eldest lad Ernest was born earlier than the marriage.
Marriages Jun 1878
Carpenter Fanny Godstone 2a 291
Drawbridge William Godstone 2a 291
HUGGETT Albert Godstone 2a 291
Taylor Annie Godstone 2a 291
His PoB of Horne is in this Godstone District.
I wonder if this is in fact him? The middle name doesnt match, but otherwise perfect age and place and surname of Mum ....
Ernest Albert Taylor
Jan-Feb-Mar 1876
Godstone District, Surrey
Volume - 2a
Page - 193
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Do you want to go further back?
After a quick look, it seems that they were 'always' in Goudhurst - William's father was a Charles born c1830 and his Grandfather a Samuel, born c1796-1801
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Mort29,
Frank's mother's maiden name was Annie Jane Arnold according to Frank's marriage licence ( I have a picture of it.)
Marriage in Portsmouth, Ontario, Sept 20, 1918 (now part of Kingston).
Frank was 27 which puts his DoB as 1891. His wife Gertrude May Haffie was 24 which puts here DoB as 1894.
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well, if that is the wrong family, they had a lot of names in common !
The 1901 shows your man as 'Frank' age 14 (c1887 dob), whereas the above 1891 as 'Arthur F' aged 3 ..... dob c1888 ... his Birth Index entry is confirmatory:-
Arthur Frank Drawbridge
Apr-May-Jun 1887
Cranbrook, Kent
Volume - 2a
Page - 777
Both 1891 & 1901 show Mum as ANNIE J - so if the marriage I show is wrong, maybe they didnt !
As for Frank's age - maybe he was coy, altho you'd be surprised how many people didnt know their actual age !
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Just seen your other thread which is contradictory to the info above about his age and mothers name !
My grandfather Frank Arthur Drawbridge was born near Tunbridge Wells about 1888, His father was William and his mother (Annie Booth).
He had brothers Ernie, Otto, William, Charles, Percy and sisters Annie, Fanny, Bette- ( and possibly more children)
Frank came to Canada about 1910.
He married Gertrude Haffie in 1916.
Any information would be appreciated.
Thank you.
and this info you obtained from Cherry nee Drawbridge confirms the findings I showed earlier :-
William was the 3rd son of Charles & Mary Elizabeth Drawbridge.
I have a list of Baptisms from Christ Church, Kilndown,
(a village near Goudhurst, near Tunbridge Wells) It is next to Scotney Castle where some of them worked.
William's baptism date is 12 Jan 1857.
There are 4 children listed of William & Annie Drawbridge.
They are 6 Nov1881 Beatrice Isabel
4 Mar 1883 Charles Henry Victor
1 Nov 1885 Percy Samuel John
12 Jun 1887 Arthur Frank
Note that Arthur Frank must have preferred to use Frank.
Also these are baptisms, not birth dates.
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Yes agree that some dates are confusing. I have info from different sources as well. I was going by the census and info from Cherry. Then, I see a photo of the marriage licence that shows Mother's maiden name as Annie Jane Arnold. I previously thought it was Booth????
Also on the licence are the ages of Frank , Gertrude --- maybe those are questionable??
Not trying to be confusing, it seems different info on different sources.
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LOL what's confusing is you posting the different info on different threads LOL ;)
anyway, I'd say the census can be taken as basic confirmation.
The big anomaly is Annies Maiden name. Either that is the wrong marriage, or they didnt marry.
best bet is to get Franks Birth Papers - reference shown earlier - to reveal her names.
You can order online for £7.00 (£9.25 from early April onward) using a Card.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
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Incidentally, to back up that marriage a tad more, a 12 year old Anne Taylor, born Horsham, was working in Horne for the Clement family in the 1871 census. The Head was a retired Bookseller.
RG10; Piece: 837; Folio: 65; Page: 7 Horne, Godstone District
and in 1861 we see her with her parents:-
RG9; Piece: 608; Folio: 38; Page: 5 Horsham (North); Tower Hill
Henry Taylor 35 Head of Household born Sussex, Beeding: Agricultural Labourer
Hannah Taylor 33 Wife born Shipley
Emily Taylor 6 dau born Horsham
Ann Taylor 4 dau ditto
William Taylor 70 WIDOWER Father born Horsham: Ag Lab
Births Mar 1859
TAYLOR Ann Jane Horsham 2b 266
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Mort29,
This is what I have been able to find, but the spelling of Aannie seems weird to me. These are the dates I would use and recognize that the census 1891 would pre-date Otto's birth.
Your reference to Taylor seems irrelevant.
Descendant's report for Aannie J Drawbridge
Generation No. 1
1. Aannie J Drawbridge She was born 1858 at Horsham, Sussex
She married William Drawbridge on c 1876. He was born 1856 at Goudhurst, Kent. They had the following children:
i Ernest Alfd who was born 1876 at Horne, Surrey
ii William C who was born 1880 at Goudhurst, Kent
iii Beatrice J who was born 1882 at Goudhurst, Kent
iv Charles H V who was born 1884 at Goudhurst, Kent
v Percy John who was born 1886 at Goudhurst, Kent
vi Arthur F who was born 1888 at Goudhurst, Kent
vii Annie who was born 1890 at Burwash, Sussex
viii Ellen who was born 1891 at Burwash, Sussex
I would like to know more about William's father, mother, siblings etc. as you mentioned in earlier post:
After a quick look, it seems that they were 'always' in Goudhurst - William's father was a Charles born c1830 and his Grandfather a Samuel, born c1796-1801
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LOL what's confusing is you posting the different info on different threads LOL ;)
anyway, I'd say the census can be taken as basic confirmation.
The big anomaly is Annies Maiden name. Either that is the wrong marriage, or they didnt marry.
best bet is to get Franks Birth Papers - reference shown earlier - to reveal her names.
You can order online for £7.00 (£9.25 from early April onward) using a Card.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
Mort,
The 2 threads are
1) the moderator started a new thread, and
2) I started a thread based on your instructions.
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Your reference to Taylor seems irrelevant.
The only marriage of a Wm Drawbridge to an Annie is the one shown in 1878 to an Annie Taylor.
This marriage is in the 'right' place, with respect to events that follow and the also birth of the oldest son seen on a census.
In all the census where they are co-habiting, 'Annie J' gives her Birthplace as Horsham.
The Ann* Taylor I found on pre-1881 census is of an age and also has an Horsham POB.
As I said, the best way forward is to get the Birth Papers of a child of Wm & Annie J, which will show her former name(s).
Good luck with your research :)
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Hi OrangeCat
Welcome to RootsChat and an apology for not posting earlier about my Drawbridges or rather my wife's Drawbridges. She is descended from the Woolwich family of Samuel Drawbridge, a shipwright. My earliest record of Samuel is the 1841 census, when he was 7 and in the Cranbrook Workhouse (HO 107/472 9 39 p2). There were three other Drawbridge boys, Thomas 9, George 5 and Sevyer 3, and also Jane Drawbridge 45. I guessed that this group was mother and children and that is certainly the case for Jane, George and Sevyer since Sevyer had a statutory birth certificate that showed he was born in Goudhurst, the son of William Drawbridge, agricultural labourer, and Jane Osbourne. In subsequent census he has taken the name John Drawbridge (I suspect that Sevyer was an attempt to spell Xavier.) and in 1871 the census shows his brother George as a lodger with John's family in Cranbrook (RG10/949 29 p1). Previously in 1861 George was living as head of household in Cranbrook with his mother Jane as housekeeper (RG9/507 22 p43).
The Cranbrook Workhouse seems to have been kind to the four Drawbridge children since they were all apprenticed to trades, Thomas, George and John all became boot/shoemakers and Samuel was a Shipwright in the Royal Navy.
I know most about Samuel: his children were all daughters and as far as I know none had a child out of wedlock so that Drawbridge stopped there. I suspect that George remained single, John had at least one son Harry, born in 1862 and I have not followed Thomas up so do not know if he married.
All the best
Gobbo
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Thanks Gobbo,
My grandfather Frank Arthur Drawbridge, son of William and Annie, had a number of brothers. One brother was William C (DoB 1880) born at Goudhurst, Kent.
The whole family seems to originate in Goudhurst, and most seem to be agricultural workers, millers etc.
My William C seems 3 generations or so after your William.
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I'm particularly interested in finding out about one of Samuel Drawbridge's daughters who, I believe, was the mother of my great-grandfather.
Elizabeth M. Drawbridge seems to have married a man named Holmes who died quite young... I haven't been able to find his first name... but they had three sons ... Harry, Charles, and Thomas. I have tried to locate information about her marriage but have been unable to do so. She appears in the 1871 census in Woolwich as Eliza M. Drawbridge, and in the 1881 Census as Elizabeth Holmes, window(er) with the three boys Harry, 6, Thomas 4, and Charles, 3. A search for the marriage index has not returned any promising candidates.
If anyone has the link to the elusive Mr. Holmes I'd appreciate it... marriage, birth, death or even just his full name.
I believe that this particular Harry was my great-grandfather ... but I'm not completely sure... all the dates, names, and records seem to fit. There is a difficulty with tracing him because he seems to have changed his name to Henry when he enlisted in the army... all the records as to marriage, births, etc. in the army show him as being Henry. He seems to have reverted to Harry after his discharge from the service.
Thank you,
Stephen.
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Hello Stephen
I have not looked at the Drawbridge part of my tree for some time: my primary interest was Florence and I have not followed her sisters very closely. You query was interesting so I have had look.
There is an Elizabeth Holmes, daughter and widow living in the Drawbridge household in 1881 and she has three children, Harry, 6, Thomas, 4, and Charles, 3, all born in Woolwich. There is a Woolwich marriage Jul-Sep 1874 with Lilly Drawbridge and Harry Holmes as two of the three names on the page - Woolwich 1d 1385. It would greatly help your research if you were to get a copy of the certificate since it should give you Harry Holmes's occupation and the name and occupation of his father.
Harry Holmes is quite a common name and there are a number of them in the deaths April 1874 to June 1881. Two possible husbands for Elizabeth have deaths recorded 1) Jan-Mar 1878, 38 years old, East Grinstead 2b 97 and 2} Jan-Mar 1880, 27 years old, St Geo H Sq 1a 331.
Problems with Harry becoming Henry and vice versa are not uncommon - I have had similar problems with Florence's descendants. A recruiting sergeant might well have enlisted your Grandfather as Henry on the grounds that Harry was just a diminutive - nevertheless Harry was probably his proper first name - see Births Jan-Mar 1875 Harry Holmes Woolwich 1d 1023. This birth certificate should record the full name of Harry's father and his occupation plus where the family were living at the time of the birth.
All the best
Gobbo
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Thank you, Gobbo.
I'd not have of thought of looking for a Lilly Drawbridge at all... I shall probably send for either the birth certificate or the marriage certificate to verify the names.
Harry has been a traditional name in my family for some time; both my father's brother and my cousin (his sister's son) were named Harry.
When I went looking for my great grandfather, I had no idea what his first name was and there is now no one alive who'd remember him; I knew my grandmother's name, of course, and that she'd been born in India, so I went looking for regimental births and found it; all the details, of course, were for a "Henry" Holmes.
I imagine that your explanation is true... I do know my cousin has had trouble with people insisting that his name must really be Henry. Of course, then I couldn't find any records pertaining to the birth or death of a "Henry" Holmes that fit the facts. As soon as I found out he was "Harry" the pieces came together very quickly, and I made my way back to the Drawbridge family almost immediately.
I'm waiting with baited breath for FindMyPast to release the pension records for soldiers up until 1913... I can't find him in the Great War records so I'm supposing he was discharged on medical grounds before then... of course otherwise he'd have been called up since he was only 39 in 1914. He served in the South Staffordshires and his rank in the 1911 census was given as Colour Sergeant.
Anyway, thanks again, and I hope I haven't rambled on too much.
Stephen.
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Hi Stephen
I should apologise to you for rambling on rather then vice versa. The 1881 census records Elizabeth Mary Drawbridge as Eliza Holmes, married with three sons called Holmes, living in her parents' house at 6 Pellipar Road, Woolwich. She was recorded as single in the 1871 census and I have assumed that she married a Holmes sometime between the two censuses. I can search Freebmd for a Holmes Drawbridge marriage between in that period and turn up just the one with Harry Holmes and Lilly Drawbridge on the same page and in Woolwich. You are right to be cautious about this - Lilly is not one of the usual diminutives for Elizabeth and it is not unknown for women to have children by and name them after men to whom they are not married. The 1881 census shows Elizabeth as a widow so the husband must have died between 1875 (conception of Charles and 4 Apr 1881 (census date). I cannot see a likely death in Woolwich.
Is the Harry Holmes living with the Drawbridge family in 1881 your ancestor? I can only find the one Harry or Henry Holmes with birthplace recorded as Woolwich and born between 1874 and 1876 in the 1881 census. So if your other records confirm the birth range and birthplace it looks fairly certain that this is your man. However if the birthplace is not confirmed there are other Harry/Henry Holmes born in the London area round about that period. Elizabeth's two younger children were both in military establishments in 1891: Thomas Arthur in the Artillery at Woolwich and Charles Samuel at the Royal Military Asylum (I think a school not a lunatic asylum).
I have not traced this little group any further so I do not know what happened to them. The family seems to have developed an aversion to censuses - Florence Slade nee Drawbridge disappears after 1891 and I cannot find her four year old child or husband in the 1891 census. The child, christened Robert Henry Slade, married in 1909 under the name Harry Robert Slade after which he is easier to trace having lived well into the 20th century but his Mother's end is a bit of a mystery. His Father may have been in prison in 1901 and a lunatic asylum in 1911 but I need to check this.
All the best
Gobbo
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The birthplace is confirmed as Woolwich in several records pertaining to my great - grandfather... he is definitely mentioned as having been born there, both on his military wedding and on the 1911 census, in which there is more than enough information to determine that he is my great-grandfather; including my grandmother's known birth in India in 1902. I'm pretty sure that this is the right person, although, of course, I cannot be 100% sure - I'm hoping that the military records will confirm mother's name and residence when they are finally released - supposedly later this month.
This actually seems to be the most err... disreputable... part of my background; there are several obvious cases of illegitimate children involved, for instance ;). I didn't have too much trouble tracing back the Wild family since I have several original documents including my great grandfather's birth and marriage certificates; they seem to have been poor but eminently respectable cotton workers in Cheshire, Darbyshire, and Lancashire. I imagine the Holmes Family rather gobsmacked my great-grandmother Hannah... my dad said she was very religious... I'd have liked to have been a fly on the wall when my grandparents announced their marriage in 1930 (especially since dad was already born!). ;D
Harry Holmes left the military some time between the 1911 census and the Great War - I can't find any evidence of service in WWI. A family story was confirmed when I received my great-grandmother's death certificate stating that he'd been an inspector for the N.S.P.C.C. in Southport... I have no idea how a boy who was born in Woolwich, then served for years in the South Staffordshires, ended up in Southport, Lancashire. Unfortunately, there is now no one alive who knows the story... I had a hard time even finding out his name.
Thanks,
Stephen.
P.S.
If you don't mind my rambling I certainly don't mind yours... it's very interesting.
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How about I start up this old thread again? :) I was just googling this morning and found this thread.
orangecat, I think I know who you are, so we may have already discussed this info...
William's father was Charles who married Mary
Charles' brothers were Harry and John
Their father was Samuel (married to Harriet) siblings were John, Bethsheba, thomas, Phebe, Edward, Mary and Ann
Their father was John (married to Mary) siblings were Thomas, Samuel, Nanny and Eleanor
Their father was John (born 1742) and that's as far back as I got.
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Hi, my name is Shaninne and I am daughter to Donald Frank Drawbridge and granddaughter to Otto and May Drawbridge.
At the start of this thread in 2010 "orangecat" posted a picture of Otto and his family but the names are linked over the wrong people.
Firstly, I would love to get a copy of that photo, and secondly would like to get more info on my grandparents and back further if possible.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Shaninne
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Hi
Shannine Shaninne
Welcome to RootsChat - I hope that someone can help you. Probably orangecat is the person you most need to be in touch with. When you have posted two more replies you will get access to the personal messaging system in RC and can write to him directly. If you post a thank you for this that counts as one of your two extra posts and perhaps for the other one you might say which of the two photographs is wrongly labelled.
All the best
Gobbo
PS Sorry I got Shaninne wrong first time - right number of n's but wrong arrangement!
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Hi Gobbo,
Thanks very much.
It looks like Orangecat has not been on this site in a few years though :( so I might not get anywhere! But thanks anyway, and hopefully we will be able to move forward.
Thanks
Shaninne
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Hi
My mothers maiden name is Drawbridge. She was brought up in Kingston upon Thames in the UK. I know she has some family history and I will get her to dig it out and I will revert back. From memory there were East Sussex connections.
Richard.
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Just touching base again, it's been a long time. For others following this, I have sent a corrected photograph to Shaninne separately.
Yes Phil, I am the orangeCat from several years back who visited your homepage and guestbook.
orangecat
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Hi Orangecat (Jack),
I have been sent some lovely photos of my grandad Otto Drawbridge, my grandmother May Drawbridge and their children. One of the photos has lots of people included and just wondered if you might recognise any of them? If you want me to email you the photos, let me know.
Thanks
Shaninne
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Shaninne,
I was just cleaning up old emails and saw your post. I looked at all the pictures that you sent Debbie (who passed a copy to me) and must admit I do not recognize anyone. There is one person in 1 photo that looks like Donald(your dad) on the photo of Otto's family we discussed originally, but it's only a guess on my part.
I have not done any checking/researching re genealogy in the last several years.
Jack (orangecat)
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Hi Jack,
Great to hear from you! Hope you're keeping well.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to me. Pity you don't know of anyone else in the photos, but thanks for looking.
Take care,
Shaninne
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Hi again Shaninne.
Just cleaning up an older computer and checking to see if some saved logons are still active. I must admit I have not been actively pursuing ancestry - but I understand that Darlene keeps her hand in things. Hope all is well with you and that you have found more info about the photos and family history. If you have more info, please let us know.
Keep well,
Jack
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Hi Jack!
Great to hear from you! Actually my brother is doing some research at the moment and I do have a couple of bits from the inside of an old family bible.
Can you give me your personal email and I’ll forward them on?
Hope you’re all well.
Best wishes.
Shaninne