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Research in Other Countries => Canada Lookup Request => Canada => Canada Lookup Requests Completed => Topic started by: roby on Sunday 07 March 10 01:07 GMT (UK)
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Dear all,
My g grandfathers siblings Elizabeth Kimbell SHARMAN b. 1850 and Herbert William SHARMAN b. 1852 in Cransley, Northamptonshire are found in all UK censuses including the 1871 census. They seem to have disappeared after this date. Their father John died in 1870 and the mother Martha in 1874.
All the siblings seem to have left the UK, my g grandfather Charles William SHARMAN went to Australia between 1871 and 1890 when he married, however his siblings Herbert b 1852 and Elizabeth Kimbell Sharman b. 1850 are missing after 1871. ???
I have searched extensively in the later UK censues, marriages and deaths and to date I am unable to find Elizabeth or Herbert. :(
However in March 1881 I find a Mr H Sharman arriving in Halifax, Nova Scotia from LIverpool England, which is before the next UK census. :-\ This is a long shot, but would appreciate if anyone had information to eliminate this passenger from my search.
Any help would be greatly received
Kind regards
Roby
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http://www.rootschat.com/links/085y/
From this link you can search the 1881 and 1891 Canadian census
You can also use the Passenger Lists 1865-1922 to find the passenger record you are referring to. These lists are not organized by name of passenger but by the ships name and date and port of entry. The record you indicated doesn't give any information to rule him in or out.
There is this - perhaps just a similiar name but it might be worth following up on. There is a reference to Herbert William Sharman (deceased) in the paragraphs above the entries for Probate.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0862/
Debbie
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Thanks Debbie for your reply and valuable information. I am particularly interested in the Herbert William Sharman (deceased) but I cannot seem to see where that is. I have clicked on the link that you provided and checked each individual databases, but cannot seem to see the word Probate. What am I doing wrong, do I need knew glasses??
Thanks so much
Roby
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Sorry, when I shrunk the link to the second reference I must not have actually copied it and therefore gave you the first link twice. I've amended the mistake in the post.
Debbie
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Further to Debbie's New Zealand find, the New Zealand Archives has a probate file for a Herbert William Sharman in Christchurch:
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=19937828
I've ordered a probate file from the New Zealand Archives once by email and if I recall correctly it wasn't very expensive and the member of their staff who I communicated with was extremely helpful.
Jacquie
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thank you Debbie and Jacquie for your helpful replies. I
have sent an email to NZ archives for some help.
I have access to the NZ BDM and what I find is interesting is that I cannot find a death for Herbert William Sharman at all. ??? Maybe he never lived in NZ, but just owned property :-\ Would this explain probate, but no death record?
Keen to hear any view points on this?
Once again many thanks for your help
Roby
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Roby
I have several ancestors that lived in NZ but died in Australia, they have NZ probate records.
I have checked NSW BDM for you but no sign of him, maybe Victoria?
Annie
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http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?OID=20188744
saw Jacquie already had submitted Herbert's record... this might be a son (named after your ancestor?)
Or was it referring to your Charles William? A photo, date of entry 1874...date /place of birth seems to match?
http://www.nzetc.org/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc03Cycl-t1-body1-d4-d17-d2.html
( sorry, My pasteover didn't work, but have now corrected the link)
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Good morning,
You may want to check the 1901 and other censuses on www.automatedgenealogy.com for your ancestors. Library and Archives Canada has all of the Fderal censuses up tp 1911, I believe, on their website. Sorry can't recall their addy at the moment. Hope this helps.
JDC
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I have sent an email to NZ archives for some help.
I have access to the NZ BDM and what I find is interesting is that I cannot find a death for Herbert William Sharman at all. ??? Maybe he never lived in NZ, but just owned property :-\ Would this explain probate, but no death record?
Keen to hear any view points on this?
Roby
Hi Roby
If you check your recently-added thread on the New Zealand board, you'll see that "leandra" has posted information about the burials (at Oxford Cemetery, NZ) of "Charles William SHARMAN and his wife Mary Ann" ... and also "a Herbert SHARMAN - buried 2 July 1899":
This Herbert SHARMAN is very likely to be the person for whom Archives New Zealand (Christchurch) hold a probate record (Herbert William SHARMAN - farmer of Oxford - 1899) ?
The probate record though, is most unlikely to contain information which would allow you to positively identify the parentage of this man.
I would suggest you actually contact NZ BDM and ask if they can check further for the death record of Herbert W. SHARMAN.
[The NZ Historical BDM online, does not have a "wildcard" facility which enables a search for variants of surname - and since it's inception last year, many of us have discovered errors in the online records. NZ BDM are happy to accommodate enquiries.]
http://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home
[Incidentally, the death record for the "Charles William SHARMAN -died NZ - 1938 - aged 81 years" ... I've just found this recorded on the BDM index, under "SHERMAN"]
~ Lu
[ in Aotearoa ]
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Thread on N.Z. board http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442790.0.htm
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/shipping/mig-nz2.htm#nz2
One trip of LADY JOCELYN left in 1874 & arrived in '75
arrived Jan 21st 1875 Lyttelton, departed England Nov. 3rd. 1874
I imagine you are looking to confirm if the Kettering marriage of 1849 Martha Kimbell / John Sharman on page are correct ancestors... have you not picked up the birth cert for your Charles William Sharman?
added:Just saw in another posting that you do know the parents
Death of his wife: May 16th 1935... from 1838 memoriam notice
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~ashleigh/1870-1908/1938.May.Christchurch.Press.BMD.html
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Just found this, but might be a red herring...
MORRIS Elizabeth Martha Born 05 November 1877, baptised 28 May 1905 daughter of Isaac labourer & Martha of East
Oxford witnesses Elizabeth Gainsford, E Maria Gardiner by Rev R F Garbett
Charles Frederick Barker, aged 47 years Bachelor occupation Farmer born Rangiora Residence Whetukura, Hawkes Bay, usual Residence Whetukura Hawkes Bay son of James BARKER occupation Framer & Mary Anne nee DINES Married 30 August 1911 St Andrews Oxford:
MORRIS Elizabeth Martha aged 33 years spinster occupation, Music Teacher Born East Oxford Residence East Oxford daughter of Isaac MORRIS occupation Market Gardener & Elizabeth nee SHARMAN
So it seems Isaac remarried an Elizabeth Sharman sometime after 1877
http://www.lynly.gen.nz/HAMorrisWells1858England.pdf
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Thank you all for your responses and information.
I have posted on the NZ list that I may be looking at the wrong Charles William SHARMAN, I have ordered the marriage certificate of Charles William and Mary Ann Powell hoping that this will give me his parents names
Once again thank you all and I will post the result when the certificate arrives.
Regards
Roby
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Hi Roby
On one of your NZ threads, you mentioned your g/grandfather Charles William SHARMAN, married in Australia in 1890 and died there in 1910. You also noted, having previously found births around 1858/59 in Northamptonshire, for two children named "Charles W. SHARMAN".
The Charles William SHARMAN (of Oxford, NZ) who married there in 1883, whose last child was born 1893, and who is buried with his wife Mary Ann, can't possibly be the same person who married in 1890 and died 1910 in Australia. ?
It does seem perhaps that the UK census returns you've followed, are not the family of your Charles W. SHARMAN - but are likely to be connected to the SHARMAN's who went to NZ. ???
~ Lu
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I am sure I saw a posting that said you "have" the marriage for Charles!
:P
p.s. Yes, we were all very enthused because we thought we had a valid mystery to solve...
Do you actually have documentation that says your ancestor's middle name was William? If so, what led you to Northamptonshire?
Someone else seems to have laid claim to the same Charles...?? But judging from the "actual" brother also in N.Z. and a hint of Eliz. in Oxford as well, mother Martha dying in 1874, I think the N.Z. info looks to be the fellow.
http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.nth.general/1493.1/mb.ashx
Hopefully the marriage information will put it to rest...
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Re: Sharman siblings missing since 1871
Dear All
My g grandfather Charles William SHARMAN marriage certificate indicates that he was born in Northamptonshire and he was born about 1857/58 and he married in Australia in 1890 and died here in 1910.
Over the past 5 years I have searched and eliminated every Charles William Sharman and even Charles SHARMAN found in all parts of the UK following them and their families through each census.
The only one I could find that had left before 1891 census ( ie. before the 1890 marriage ) was the one that now looks like he settled in NZ. But to ensure that I had the correct person, as I was unable to find a shipping record, I decided to find his ? siblings, hence my post.
With the help of the list, I have achieved my aim, to ënsure that I had the correct person". It may not be the result I wanted, but that is why I asked the list to help out.
So I still have a "valid"mystery to solve, what happened to my Charles William SHARMAN??
I am now back to the beginning and will retrace my steps to try and solve the puzzle.
I will post the result of the marriage certificate when I receive it.
regards
Roby
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Well don't be insulted roby, as you hadn't mentioned this was a search for proof, you stated that these were your g grandfathers siblings. If you want to be mad at someone be angry with your ancestor for not being specific on the marriage license :D You still haven't been forthcoming with the question, was his middle name always used as Charles William Sharman. (ie: Have you looked for a William Charles, etc....) Nor have you ever stated what name your Great Grandmother had...
There are some pretty fantastic researchers on here, who can really dig out a lot of information and solve this kind of family mystery, but you need to be forthcoming with information, and also keep your number of postings to a minimum.
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442790.15.html adding roby's quote from the N.Z. board...
Dear All,
Today I received the marriage certificate for Charles William SHARMAN and Mary Ann POWELL (parents Joseph Powell and Mary Falley? ) aged 21 Married 27th September 1883
Charles William SHARMAN (parents are John Sharman and Martha Kimble) he was born at Cransley Northamptonshire and aged 25 when married.
The witnesses were Herbert SHARMAN and Andrew BAXTER
This certificate confirms that the Charles William SHARMAN that left England sometime after the 1871 census and settled in Oxford about 1874/75 and died in 1938 is not my g grandfather as I had believed.
I had never felt comfortable with the fact that I could not find the siblings of my "Charles William SHARMAN" or any shipping record into Australia, therefore I decided to search for the siblings and hopefully establish or find some clue that this man was undoubtedly my ancestor.
Well thanks to rootschatters, the siblings have been found and it has been established that he is not my ancestor
I need to restart my search for my elusive Charles William SHARMAN
Once again thank you one and all.
Roby
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Hi Roby,
We are all here to find out the truths regarding our ancestors, including the things we don't particularly want to hear about them. The rootschatters here are here to help one another out in finding those truths, including helping you out as best we can :-)
I now appears your ancestor (and assuming his wife Mary Ann) didn't migrate till after their marriage 1n 1883. Thus I think they both should be found in the 1881 UK census (if they participated - some folks avoided censuses for whatever their reason). Have you checked the 1881, 1891, and 1901 UK censuses for this pair? Don't exclude other parts of the UK... ie Scotland and Ireland. That would help determine if and when they migrated. Once that is done and can't be found in those censuses, we can start looking at passenger lists and "overseas" censuses. I think this is a good restarting point for finding your lost ancestor.
Hope this helps you roby,
In cooperation,
JDC
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I suppose the cooperation comment is regarding my entries... We have searched for many hours looking for a family that had nothing to do with roby's...although someone eventually may be happy to find the family we did find... :D
We STILL don't know the actual name of the woman that roby's real Sharman ancestor married. From reply above:
"My g grandfather Charles William SHARMAN marriage certificate indicates that he was born in Northamptonshire and he was born about 1857/58 and he married in Australia in 1890 and died here in 1910. "
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Hi JJ,
No, I didn't mean you specifically JJ so I hope you (or anyone else for that matter) didn't take offence to it. If so, I appoligize. I meant for everyone cooperating (as per usual here :-), including Roby providing full discloser as to the relevant info held about her ancestor(s) being searched for. I was simply attempting to emphasize we are here to help each other out :-) however poorly I said it this time :-(
cheers and have a gr8 day,
JDC
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:D oh, just me being over-sensitive ;) It is unfortunate that ancestor Mr. Sharman wasn't forthcoming with information his either, as it makes it so hard to find someone who does not seem to want to be found... J.J.
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I have folllowed this thread with interest and sympathise with Roby that the William Charles Sharman she has been following has turned out not to be her G/Grandfather, well done to you Roby for following up every lead you could find and good luck in finding the information as to his origins and family. We often have to go down paths that lead to nowhere but that's genealogy for you.
JJ your comment ................. "We STILL don't know the actual name of the woman that roby's real Sharman ancestor married."
Roby has clearly stated William Charles Sharman married in Australia in 1890, I get the clear impression that Roby knows a great deal about her Great Grandfather after his marriage and can't see why you perisist in wanting to know the name of his spouse, it seem irrelevant to her quest to find the origns of William Charles.
My tuppence half pennies worth ::)
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Actually names of children and spouse can be used over again, so it is always a valid question. To ask some questions is how a search gets started, then we move back in time...( as long as it's within the privacy laws, time-wise)It's what we do. I feel sorry for roby and have asked her to start over again on one of her threads, so that we can help. Please note how many people have done searches on roby's behalf on this topic.
New Zealand board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442790.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442792.0.html
Northamps:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,437086.0.html
U.S
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,437331.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442297.0.html
Canada:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,442307.0.html
I will now link the other threads as well
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JJ your comment ................. "We STILL don't know the actual name of the woman that roby's real Sharman ancestor married."
Roby has clearly stated William Charles Sharman married in Australia in 1890, I get the clear impression that Roby knows a great deal about her Great Grandfather after his marriage and can't see why you perisist in wanting to know the name of his spouse, it seem irrelevant to her quest to find the origns of William Charles
Knowing the name of the woman William married would help a LOT with searches. To do a proper job helping others we need as much information as possible to find the right person and preferably everything that is known about the person in question to avoid a duplication of work already done. Spouse's names are listed on many documents that are available over the internet so having the name of his wife would obvious help in ascertaining whether we have found the right person or not.
I'm not sure whether your underlining the capital "R" was some sort of dig at JJ but you will notice the member in question's screen name is roby with a lowercase "r".
Jacquie
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3 online ancestry.ca trees have Charles William Sharman married to
Aimee Louise Wealands (Amy Wealands/Amy L. Wealands) Feb 25, 1890 Corowa N.S.W.
Aimee b. 1862 d. 1948
Debbie
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3 online ancestry.ca trees have Charles William Sharman married to
Aimee Louise Wealands (Amy Wealands/Amy L. Wealands) Feb 25, 1890 Corowa N.S.W.
Aimee b. 1862 d. 1948
The next step seems to be to obtain a copy of this marriage registration and see if it can add information for the search.
Jacquie
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I was looking at the NSW BMDs and the death for Charles W. Sharman in 1910 has the notation in the place for father's name "52 years Corowa". This brings you back to 1858 - his year of birth.
Have you considered the possibility that his family wouldn't be found on the 1861 British census if they emigrated shortly after the birth of Charles?
Debbie
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Since Charles is your great-grandfather, roby, do you have a copy of your grandparent's birth registration? That would give you the names of his parents so you would know if you have the correct marriage or not.
Jacquie