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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Simba.Bruce on Thursday 04 March 10 17:28 GMT (UK)
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Hi There,
I have a BC for a direct ancestor of mine from Scotlands People that I would like help with decipering please.
Alexander Lyon was born 23 July 1595. His father is Thomas Lyon. There are some words after this that I cannot make out. can anyone help, please?
I hope this image posts correctly...not sure if I've done it right!
Thanks,
Sheilah
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_9vYgayJy98w/S4_yGhTE6MI/AAAAAAAAACw/SX_52lBQZco/image.jpg
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Think its a 'miss' !
Here's B.Bob's guide to posting images ...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
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Thanks...had another go meanwhile...
Does this work? Hope so! I'm going over now anyway to read your suggestion.
Sheilah
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http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bsbZ0N00xe7Ob2xDOcIrEA?authkey=Gv1sRgCIqGxpyr8KWRtgE&feat=directlink
This is the link to Picasa web album.
I'm trying to learn Irfanview now.
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I had a look at it ... the trouble is, its very small ... and if you click on the magnifying glass, it gets too pixelated to read !
Is this a download you got from somewhere, or is it a scan of the paper copy you have in your hand, so to speak ?
If so, can you try scanning it again ... see the tips on B.Bob ... and see if you can post it on here ... there will be lots of help available ... RootsChat people like a challenge !
added ... ahh ! I see you have amended your first posting ! Will have a look after I've had my tea !!
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I have saved it as a proper image without all the white surround.However we're not allowed to post the whole image on Rootschat,so which portions can't you read?
I'll post the first part of it here.
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Could it be the names of the godparents - looks like Sr Robert someone starts with K and Sr Walter Scot of somewhere starts with a Ba(could be a phonetic spelling of Buccleuch)
Ermy
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Thank you both for your input. I hadn't realised Sir Robert and Sir Walter could have been god-parents. I didn't make out much more than the first names and thought it was the next entry!!
The words I am very interested in are the ones right after Thomas Lyon.....what I think is an M and a squiggle that stands for abbreviated 'Master'.
The next word is very puzzling as it looks like a small 'g' (?) followed by a letter which I can't anywhere in a secretary hand alphabet. Or maybe it is all one letter. The tail goes backward as in 'g' but the writer, it seems has developed his own hand!
I won't say at the moment what I think the word could be as I would like an unbiased opinion, as it will make a big difference to the tree.
The whole document is not easy to read and the word I am looking at is nowhere else in it.
Thank you for trying
Sheilah
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Sorry, I forgot to answer your query about the document....it is a download from Scotlands People.
And I have tried to magnify, zoom and thoroughly dissect it, but it doesn't make much difference !
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The next word is very puzzling as it looks like a small 'g' (?) followed by a letter which I can't anywhere in a secretary hand alphabet. Or maybe it is all one letter. The tail goes backward as in 'g' but the writer, it seems has developed his own hand!
It's not "of" is it? Is that too simple? :-\
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Is this the right part?
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Sheilah, the last two lines. Sir Robert Ker of Cessford and Sir Walter Scott of Buccleugh? Master, I Think, refers to the oldest son of a house. Cessford used to be spelled with an S......Skoosh.
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Hi Skoosh,
Yes, that is the right part, and thank you so much for your input.
Those names stand out now that I know what they are! I think you are right.
I am presuming that, being dubbed 'Master', Thomas was an 'heir presumptive' to an Earldom or Barony. The word after the abbreviated 'Master' is still a mystery.
A few years ago, I was given a possible... but it is still not clear to me. I have done a lot of research into the history of early Scotland. I was born a Bruce and my 3x gt grandfather Robert Bruce married Mary Lyon. I have managed to trace the family back to this Thomas Lyon and really need to know what he was Master of....there are not too many Thomas Lyons about at that time.
Hope you can see why it is bugging me so much!
I would appreciate you having another look at this word, and then I will tell you what I think it could be.
Warm wishes, Sheilah
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Hi Ruskie,
Yes, it looks like it could be 'of', but of where? 'Master of.....?' or 'Master ...?'
It could also be all one word!! Puzzling huh?
Sheilah
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Sheilah, after the Master of, it's Sir Alexander VD? that term also appears near the end of the first line, it wouldn't mean ditto by any chance? or a number, do you know what parish this stuff refers to?.....Skoosh.
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It is Edinburgh Parish. IGI No: C116584
What I made out was..
"Thomas Lyon Mr ....?.... a son Alexander" on the first line.
Of the missing word, I thought it may begin with 'G', but nowhere on the whole document is another letter like it.
Cheers, Sheilah
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Pity its Edinburgh Sheilah, if it had been a country parish it would just be a matter of checking the placenames on a map. Lyon is probably Angus. the VD could even be a latin term-something God?..Skoosh.
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Lyon is probably Angus. the VD could even be a latin term-something God?..Skoosh.
How about Oh God we can't read it ;D ;D ;D
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Nice one Carol ;D
Anyway, I've done some digging, and there are 2 Sir Walter Scotts around at that time...father and son, and Senior is 1st Baron Scott, and junior is the first Earl of Buccleuch.
Robert Ker(r) of Cessford was Earl of Roxburgh.
The interesting thing is that both these guys and my Thomas Lyon are all related to the Douglas family. This means that he probably is the guy I thought he was, and I may as well explain now that the word I am stuck on, I am thinking could be 'Glamis'.
I know there was a Thomas Lyon who held this position, but I didn't dare think that he was in my tree. This could be now practically positive proof that my ancestor was Robert the Bruce.
One other person a few years ago saw the word and suggested Glamis, but I didn't want to get my hopes up ....still find it hard to believe actually!! ???
Any more input would be much appreciated.
, Sheilah
Cheers
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Just been looking through some records and seen Glamis spelt 'Glammis', which seems nearer to the mystery word.
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Well if you have Lyon that is part of the Queen Mothers name. and the Duke of Buccleuch is related to the Queen. Also Douglas was related to Robert de Brus as far as I know. He was called Black Douglas and his castle is at Threave near Castle Douglas and the Buccleuch residence is not that far away in Drumlanrig near Dumfries so think you may have something there.
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Sheilah, the Lyon's became Earls of Kinghorn in 1606, they seem to have been John or Patrick around that time, one was Chancellor of Scotland, courtesy titles Glamis, Sidlaw etc' strange the two godfathers were Border big shots, not from Strathmore, who was the mother?....Skoosh.
P.S done a bit of Googling. Thomas Lyon was prominent in the "Raid of Ruthven" he fled to England a couple of times, his second wife was Euphame Douglas, a daughter of the Earl of Morton. He returned to Scotland and ended up on good terms with James VI, he held the Barony of Dod, residing at Auldbar in Angus. The clerk who wrote the entry in the register never dreamt that four hundred years on, his handwriting would be subject to expletives right around the globe!
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Hi Skoosh,
Yes, Google....where would we be without it! I keep picking up snippets of information, but didn't have all that you mention. I knew Thomas was a bit of a lad and had several mistresses, however, there appear to be 2 of Thomas Lyon...father and son.
The first was born around 1548/50 at Auldbar, to John Lyon,Earl of Glamis and Janet Keith. I couldn't see him being the father, although he had several wives. But he had a son Thomas in about 1570. I considered him to be the father of Alexander, as he is the one that was 'Master of Glammis', while being heir presumptive. ( I got this from Ancestry and Google). He relinquished the title twice, but was actually Master when Alexander was born.
I have found him as being married to Agnes Gray, but the elder Thomas was also married to her....or the records have become confused. :-\
I have looked on The Peerage site as well for information on them. So far though, Alexander's mum is just plain 'Mrs Thomas Lyon'.
I must keep digging, he must have been honoured to have so many nobles around him when he was born/baptized!
I hope that 400 yr old clerk is having bad dreams about his handwriting ;D ;D. He must have been very old or trying to develop his own secretary hand.
Sheilah
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http://dgmweb.net/FGS/L/LyonThomas-AgnesGray-EuphemiaDouglas.shtml
I presume you have seen this site
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Sheilah, there was also a Lyon of Collise, but that doesn't seem to fit the entry. Eupham Douglas must have been the daughter of the Earl of Morton who invented the guillotine, ("The Maiden"- its in the National Museum) built for dealing with the nobility, and ended up getting a short back & sides himself! A previous Lady Glamis was burned as a witch. Lovely family Sheilah!!!
Nice Find Duckweed.......Skoosh.
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Sheilah, that was Lyon of Cossins (not Collise) full of the cold so not thinking straight! the Lady Glamis who was burned was Janet Douglas, daughter of the Earl of Angus (Red Douglas's).....Skoosh.
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Wow! If this keeps up, maybe I'll be wishing I'd never found them :o ::) ;D
They sound like the family from hell ;D ;D ;D
Sheilah
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Thanks for the link, Duckweed. No, I hadn't seen it until now. It's very interesting .
Cheers, Sheilah
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Sheilah, if you Google "Lyon of Cossins" there's quite a bit, including a published pedigree by Andrew Ross (one of the Heralds) Cheers.....Skoosh.