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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: bemmygirl on Wednesday 03 March 10 11:06 GMT (UK)
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I have a family Bible, with an ancestor (my Dad's side) listed as violet maud Beale. D.O.B. 11 April 1875. she was illegitimate, and I've found her as a nurse-child (Violet Gribble) on a previous census. her mother Eliza Gribble is buried in a family plot. I have her marriage certificate, to Thomas Henry Beal. a bricklayer 9th Nov 1889, showing her age then as 20 years old. (that means if she lied about her age or married very underage.)
My main query is: I've found her on the 1911 census as a widow, visiting in Bristol, however, my Grandfather , who I assumed was her son, was born 23rd march 1890, to Thomas Henry Bale (a bricklayer) but the mother was named on the Birth Certificate as Rosa (nee Mann). this is the date of my Grandfathers birth, it's also in the family Bible. How can Thomas be married to Violet in 1889 and have a wife called Rosa in 1890? with a verified link to my family? To add to the confusion, 2 of the witnesses of Violet and Thomas's marriage in 1889, were from the Mann family.
The family name has changed over the years, Beal/Beale/Bale.
I don't know how to unravel this...any ideas/help would be most appreciated.
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First thought ... Violet and Rosa are one and the same? :-\
Are dates and places of birth the same for both Violet and Rosa?
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thanks for the reply, I'd thought about that, but Violet's surname was Gribble (her mother was Eliza Gribble) and Rosa's was Mann. It's really annoying me!
Sue
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and, for what it's worth, they are both flowery names.....
Garth
Hmmm can't connect the Gribble - Mann though
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As for the age, see - http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/famhist/genealgy/marr.htm
For Boys it was 14 and 12 for Girls! :o :o
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Thanks for all your thoughts! True, they are both flowery names, and thanks floggle toggle, for the link to the marriageable ages, I didn't have a clue it was legal to marry so young. That's one problem solved.
any other thoughts I'd appreciate, I've never been so stuck!
Guess I need to unravel a few more threads....
sue
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Have you found them in 1891?
Jan ;)
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Do you have the marriage certificate of Thomas and Rosa Mann?
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Could you post more details for Violet please? Where was she born? Where was she in 1881 when you found her as Violet Gribble nursechild? I've failed to locate her ???
Am wondering if she was adopted by the Manns who preferred to call her Rosa??
Jan ;)
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Could there not have been two Thomas Henry BEAL/BALE/BEALEs? One married Violet and one married Rosa?
I have often been surprised at how many people there are with identical names, professions and even father's names. Especially in communities where families followed the same profession and the fathers called their sons after themselves or their own fathers.
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1891 census: RG12/1963/138/19
5 Alfred Parade, Bristol
Thomas Hy BEALE Head Mar 29 Bricklayer Devon Exeter
Rosa do Wife Mar 22 Devon Exeter
Thomas Hy do Son 1 Devon Exeter
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1901 census: RG13/112/111/27
96 North St, Marylebone
Thomas BEALE Head M 31 [sic] Bricklayer Exeter
Ellen do Wife M 21 Hatfield
Thomas do Son 11 Exeter
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thanks for all your suggestions. Violet is on the 1881 census as Maud Gribble -nurse child. On the Marriage certificate, obviously there is no father listed as she was illigitimate. I know her mother was Eliza Gribble, who was a Head Nurse at a Mental Hospital, she retired on a nurses pension, and died in the 1920's. She's buried in a family plot. On her Death Certificate, my Grandfather Thomas Bale is listed as her Grandson.
What confuses me is Thomas is born on the 23rd march 1890, to Thomas Henry and Rosa Bale. and in our family Bible, my Grandfathers birthday is that Date...So we have undisputed links to both ladies.
Sue
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OK let me try to get this straight your grandfather was Thomas Bale/Beale born 23rd Mar 1890. The lady you believe to be his mother from the bible and because her mother Eliza is buried in family plot is Violet Gribble on the marriage certificate but Maud in 1881? But on what appears to be your grandfather's birth certificate she is Rosa nee Mann? Now you mentioned there are Manns witnessing the marriage between Violet and Thomas Henry - what are their names? Have you found them on any censuses?
Violet is in Bristol in 1911 as is Thomas Henry and Rosa in 1891. However Thomas Henry's wife in 1901 is Ellen - is this another name for Violet/Maud/Rosa? Scrub that Ellen is born Hatfield so must be someone else, doesn't mean Rosa/Violet has died could have left Thomas Henry? Any sign of Thomas Henry in 1911? Where is your grandfather in 1911?
You are right this is confusing ???
Jan ;)
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"Maud" GRIBBLE, 8 b Exeter, was indeed a nursechild of John and Jane MANN in Exeter in 1881: RG11/2152/5/3.
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Given that Maud GRIBBLE was aged 8 in 1881, this birth reg looks to be a good match (meaning the birthdate of 1875 in the family Bible is incorrect).
Birth Jun qtr 1873
Violet Maud GRIBBLE
Exeter 5b 80
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So looks as if Violet Maud may well have been adopted by the Manns and become Rosa Mann. Wonder where she is in 1901?
Re the family bible date being 2 years out - maybe this was actually her baptism date? I've found this to be the so in my own family. Or it could have just been written in wrongly years later.
Jan ;)
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Got her
1 St James Terrace Bristol
Violet Beale (indexed as Deale) Visitor M 26 Devonshire Exeter in household Richard and Mary A Williams
RG13/2374/42 Pg7
Jan ;)
Violet Maud/ Rosa has lost a couple of years so maybe she came up with the 1875 date :D
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Jan...confusing it is!
My Grandfather (again Thomas Henry, is in Bristol in 1911, he married my Grandmother Alice Weir (weare/Ware) on Christmas Day 1911.His father is listed as Thomas Bale, deceased, Bricklayer.The profession fits all the censuses, he is listed as a Bricklayer.
I'm confused! and the 1901 census showing Thomas Henry in Marylebone London as a Bricklayer, with another wife is even more confusing. Especially as the place of birth is Exeter, which is correct, and the son Thomas Henry is the right age.
Oh well, it's not meant to be easy.
thanks again for everyones thoughts.
Sue
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Hi Sue
The picture in 1901 suggests that Thomas Henry and VioletMaud/Rosa parted company and Thomas set up home with Ellen - divorce wasn't really an option at this time unless you were rich. Your grandfather may have lived permanently with his father and Ellen in London or was just staying with his father on census night. Taking into account all the information we have, I am as certain as I can be that Violet and Rosa are the same person and that avm has found the right Thomas Henry with your grandfather in 1901.
Jan ;)
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thanks Jan,
I think i'm of the same opinion, How i wish we could just ask them! My Grandmother lived to a very good age, with great hindsight I wish I'd sat down and asked the right questions...oh well.
Again, many thanks
Sue
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Sue
I agree with what you say, there are many things I would like to ask my grandparents, but if we could just ask we wouldn't have all these fascinating puzzles to solve ;D
Jan ;)