RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: FraserandFraser on Monday 01 March 10 16:37 GMT (UK)
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Just heard that GRO are putting there prices up by almost 18%
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/1569.htm
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Thanks for letting us know Neil :)
They will get inundated with everyone trying to beat the rise, which includes me ;D
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Wow! That's a really big increase!
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What we need clarification on is, if the cost of a "general search" is to change, and if a local RO is allowed to charge a priority service.
My first thoughts are that they are probably due a rise but 18% is a too much. I also cant see the point of reducing the no reference Priority's there must be so few of them really ordered it is just so they can say that some are actually reduced in price.
The other changes that are shocking are "Registrar's fee for attending a marriage at a registered building or for the housebound and detained" almost 50% increase
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It's always been surprising to me that I pay the same price for a certificate, including postage, as someone who lives in the UK. I live in the US.
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still no change there then
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That really is quite a huge increase. I have to think long and hard, even at seven pounds, as to whether or not I can afford it. Like Patrish, I'll be getting in there as soon as possible to get whatever I need before the price goes up.
Jen
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9 pounds 75p!! :o :o :o
I think that is exhorbitant!!
Judy :(
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Seems to me the more popular Genealogy has become the more greedy Government offices become.
What a ripe off. I am enjoying doing my family research but it is so annoying that i will now have to justify spending that amount or more for my hobby.. :'(
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yes and I dont think 9.25 sounds much better
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So basically, we're going to subsidise the people who can't be bothered to find a reference number, as their fees are going down. ???
Lizzie
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I was just going to start going off at a tangent from my direct ancestors. Looks like that will have to go on the back burner until I win the lottery.
:(
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I suppose now that there isn't a national building that has the full indexes and public access (closure of FRC and TNA removing some indexes after a theft) it is hard to charge extra.
I thought as soon as the process was computerised the cost would go down like it was hinted 5 years ago, at the start of the project.
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I completely agree!! If anything, the price should be going down, not up!!
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To me 18% over 7 years equates to 2.6% per year, just about in line with inflation, but seems magnified due to the prices being held for so long.
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This is bad news, I can barely afford £7 let alone £9.25! Even £7 is steep for a cert but the new price is much worse, now I can afford even less which means more saving...
:( >:(
Matt
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Maybe they were motivated by the fact that ancestry seems able to charge a great deal more to provide the same certificates?
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If you're normally buying at £7, paying £9.25 represents a 32% increase.
Note that you have five weeks before the price goes up.
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You are right Geoff, the 18% is the overall figure, but the increase on certificates is as you say 32%, almost double inflation since 2003.
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Blimey that is terrible, I have so many certs I want to order but had been spreading them out so that I don't have to pay alot of money all at once which was working well for me until this - crumbs! I don't suppose we are going to get anything back for the increase such as faster turn around. It seems to me whenever I order a cert they wait until the day before the despatch due date and search then, instead of just doing them as soon as they get chance so that we might be tempted to pay the extra for a quick delivery. I don't think that is anyway to run a service.
Anyway that is my moan over with, at least I have a few weeks to prepare which docs I want ordering - thanks to Fraser and Fraser for letting us all know!
Sarah ;D
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What gets me is we order £100k + every year, we also pick up from Southport, the certs are never early always 24 hours or 4 days.
Occasional I get certs sent through the post by mistake with the GRO processing (they then produce a dupe for us to collect) and it arrives early or on the day I was meant to collect. so often I know that a postal service is better than the collect offered to account holders. i think gone are the days when certs took longer to produce than the 4 day turn around time, I am sure a lot of us can remember seeing the sign in the FRC saying production time was 10 days.
sorry I miss calculated the 18% it is 32% 7 pound to 9.25 is 2.25 not 1.25 like I worked out, (next time use a calculator rather than my head when speaking on the phone!!) lesson learnt.
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I assume that local register offices will have to charge the same?
This is awful! There are so many certs that I'd like to get, just to satisfy curiosity rather than to make tree progress. Particularly now that Ancestry have made the later indexes searchable. But I simply can't justify the expense.
I've always felt that if they charged half the price, they'd sell far more than twice the number.
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Wish my wages would rise at the same level ::) >:(
I'm just glad I started some years ago and buy a lot less certificates these days than then!
Kerry
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Thanks for passing on that information, Neil.
What is particularly irksome is that I completed a survey, requested by the GRO, less than two weeks ago.
One of the points I made was that £7 seemed quite a lot to pay for a photocopy certificate, especially for a lot of pensioners for whom genealogy is more than just a hobby.
At least I now know how highly the GRO value my opinion!
'Hat.
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I long for the day when we can access the certs on line like you can on Scotlands people, it drives me crackers having to wait for the certs. It is about time we get up to date with having records on the internet, it is nearly an hours drive for me to get to my 'local' records office. Why local libraries can't have transcribed copies of their parish records I don't know, it might actually encourage people into libraries as well.
Sarah ;D
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I long for the day when we can access the certs on line like you can on Scotlands people, it drives me crackers having to wait for the certs.
Wasn't there some talk that this was going to happen and that work on it even started before being halted or am I dreaming it ?
I suppose we are all paying for the Government's massive debts. It was always going to happen one day but that is some increase.
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My advice is if you are looking for London Ancestors go to the Marriage records on Ancestry or ask someone on here to look for you.
I have paid out a lot of money for marriage certs & when these early records were put onto Ancestry there were most of my London ones which I had already purchased. I have now save around £70.00 with this Ancestry facility (helps towards paying the annual fee I on my part!!)
I noticed this thread & there is also one on the Genes community board. I would not mind paying a little bit more +p&P, which I think would be more realistic.
I have always thought that £7.00 all in was quite reasonable, they pay for the envelopes & the postage, good deal. But how are they justifying this really sharp rise. I know we have paid the same price for some years now, surely it would have been better if they had had a small rise annually rather than this exhorbitant rise (and probably prohibitive for some).
Does the Government not realise that in all probability many people will now only order when absolultely necessary, thus leading to probably an overall loss. Less people ordering certificates, less staff required, job cuts (oh I can feel a conspiracy theory builidng up here). Oh deep joy. What a great government we have. They get us in every which way they can!!!
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if they are selling over 2million certificates a year at £7 a go, so that's over £14million , ??? and they aren't making a profit?? hows that work out?
and i was going to buy one cert a month, but not now, maybe 1 every 4 mths, or the husband will kill me !!!
oh and WOOHOO for ancestry's London marriage doodahs, saved me a fortune !
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It is no wonder and such a shame that things get sold off to private companies because they can and know how to run things at a profit whilst the government seems to waste money on stupid things that dont need it.
Sarah
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That's a shame, counts me out. Perhaps all of us who have got previously 'wrong' certs due to the best guess theory going awry will continue to enter them on the Forum so that others can benefit?
If only the father's details were on FreeBMD especially for marriages how much it easier it would be! The OPC's are increasing all the time due to all of the dedicated transcribers and other similar organised groups making available and On-Line Parish Records. FREE. So there are rays of hope out there you just need hope and if you can join in with the transcribers!
Good luck
PMK
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Hi PK2
Marriages post sept 1837 in parish registers in the 19th century are exactly the same as GRO certs and most libraries will do free 1/2 hour look up for 1/4 year on known GRO dates from free BMD's-Copies sent for by SAE and chegue about 50p + post stamps total cost about £1.50 tops
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Hi dobfarm
You would probably need to narrow down the locality of a marriage as most registration districts cover dozens of churches.
Andy
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Hi
Yes! but a lot are transcribed & indexed and worth a try. This website link below sometimes if they cover the area of look up that one wants and give the mothers maiden name with a birth GRO index, from this look at marriages of the bride and grooms in Free BMD's website that match the surnames nearest to the birth year (national wild card search) It takes while and a calculator !but gives results
http://www.genopro.com/genealogy-links/details.aspx?id=20&t=www.ukbmd.org.uk
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Knowing GOV! it will cut admin cost!! by rounding off to £10 a cert to make it easy for all> ;D ;D ;D
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I am having trouble tyring to log on to The GRO it says my password and email are incorrect thats even after they have re set it.
I can see now that this may be a crafty plan by them , as by the time they have sorted it out for me the new prices will be in force Lol :o ;D ;D
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I have just logged on - i entered an incorrect password first so was ready to play blue murder, turns out it was my fault not theirs, i have so many different passwords for 'security' reasons that i can never remember which password is for what!
Sarah
Unless they are in league with ancestry as i can not get on there to get the details i need to order the certs i want!!!
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It would seem that they are also stopping the reference checking service.
So if you have 2 possible births and you know the fathers name, you'll now have to order both, you won't get a £4 rebate if one isn't a correct match.
Dawn
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I was just about to post on that, do you have a bug in my office?
"Please note in addition that GRO have reviewed the range of services which we currently offer. We have been advised that there is no clear remit in statute for our charging for a service to check index references, or to retain partial fees. In order to ensure full legal compliance, and in view of the fact that we cannot afford to offer this service free of charge, we are regretfully withdrawing our reference checking service from 6 April."
It was not in the main press release but in the additional notes from the GRO
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Well, UK is in as much debt as Greece and the debt is growing daily, so the govt. has to try to claw back money in any way it can. Thanks Prudence. ::) ::)
Lizzie
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Not a bug, just on the GRO communication circulation list.
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I asked about the bug because the managers and myself were just talking about that very point, no more than 1 minuet before ;D
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Bad news >:(.
I don't know how they justify £7.00 never mind £9.25.
As the demand for certificates grows surely they should be looking at bringing the price down a bit not putting it up.
Luzzu
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I fear that this is the tip of the iceberg for government departments. Gordon has got to pay off the national debt somehow ::)
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I still think they would rake in more money by cutting the price.
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this is an appeal to everyone !! Please
put a postem on FreeBMD for every single cert you have.
If everyone did this it would be a great help to people dithering about buying a cert
eadaoin
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I still think they would rake in more money by cutting the price.
They would definitely sell more certificates if they lowered the price.
this is an appeal to everyone !! Please
put a postem on FreeBMD for every single cert you have.
If everyone did this it would be a great help to people dithering about buying a cert
Excellent idea. Let's help each other the best we can.
Luzzu
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Well judging by a recent experience I have had with a non appearance of an ordered certificate, I would say they could cut costs by sorting out their staff. >:(
After 2 weeks of cert not appearing, I sent an email. 2 weeks later with no reply I phoned and the answer was, ahh you don't have a post code on your details on the system so the post office won't be able to find you.
I replied something along the lines of well I've had some hundreds of successful certificates from you without a problem!
Sorry I'll add your postcode in and can you send an email asking for a resend!!!!! ::) :o
So I resent another email and eventually my certificate arrived and thankfully it was the right one! ;D
Not exactly an efficient complaints system
Kerry
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Thanks Neil for the warning!
I assume that local register offices will have to charge the same?
This is awful! There are so many certs that I'd like to get, just to satisfy curiosity rather than to make tree progress. Particularly now that Ancestry have made the later indexes searchable. But I simply can't justify the expense.
I've always felt that if they charged half the price, they'd sell far more than twice the number.
If I understand the press release (from Neil's link) local offices will charge £9 (though most will either want an SAE or charge extra for P & P unless you collect) so very similar.
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Let's just hope that the tremendously helpful ones, like Birmingham, won't be prevented from offering free checks and searches. Without this, I wouldn't have contemplated buying some of the certs I have.
I really think not enough market research has gone into this. There are lots I would buy if they were cheaper. Just one example, there's a couple who died in their 50s, in the same quarter: was there an accident and one lingered longer? was it an infectious disease that claimed both? or did one not want to go on without the other? I don't need to know, but I'm curious. I'd probably have bought both by now if they cost a fiver, as it is, I haven't and certainly won't now.
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Will local office not check now either? This is sending us all backwards not forwards, time is supposed to make things easier! Well I hope I stumble upon all my welsh ancestors suddenly all state that they came from Scotland!
I don't understand why they wouldn't send without a postcode, and how difficultwould it have been for them to find it online and send your cert on it's way, or have contacting you when they realised you hadn't provided all necessary info. I suspect A because they couldn't be bothered and B it would be using their initative.
Sarah
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Perhaps we should all agree to not buy from GRO when the price goes up and only buy from the local office (i see some are online and so easier) they would be in a bit of a mess if they all did that.
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Trouble is my local office is even more expensive than £9.25
Kerry
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What a rip off - ok everyone but Kerry!!!
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this is why we need clarification on what a RO can charge, the published figures are currently 7 pount soon to be 9 pound but some charge a lot more.
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Well even though it is a pain with it being an hour away i think the best thing for me to do for local ancesters is to find the marriage on microfiche in the archives and get them to do me a copy as it is only 65p I got two the other week including P&P for £1.80 (P&P because I had to leave before they could do it).
Sarah
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Perhaps we should all agree to not buy from GRO when the price goes up and only buy from the local office (i see some are online and so easier) they would be in a bit of a mess if they all did that.
Surely it all goes to the government anyway? Local register offices are also government departments.
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Local Registry Offices are controlled by the local borough council, though their charges are nominally at least set by central government.
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Seems yet again I am out of step with the family history community.
I find the new charges perfectly acceptable they are totally in line with inflation.
I notice nobody complained for the last 7 years as costs rose that the GRO were refusing to keep the fees for certificates in line with inflation.
In addition to the standard fee being in line with inflation other certificate fees have tumbled, I again note no one is complaining about that.
Why not?
Rather than complaining about the new fees family historians should be complaining about the illegal charges added by local registrars.
The law that states no fee may be charged for searches in registers of births, deaths and marriages kept under the Marriage Act 1949 and the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953, the power to charge such a fee having been repealed by the Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Fees) Order 1968, SI 1968/1242, art 4(1), Sch 2.
For more details see my website at-
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/acts/hal.htm
Cheers
Guy
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Well it looks like I will be trying to order as many certificates before the price increase . As I live in Canada it cost me more with the exchange rate to boot... I started to order on line because the banks here now charge $7.00 for a UK money order. Which I refuse to pay, if I upgraded my monthly fees I can have it for free.... It use to be free no matter what monthy fees you pay.
If I do order any after the increase I will have to be pretty picky as to which ones I order...
Cheers
Anne
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Oh boy!
I've currently got 40+ certificates on my wish list :o :o :o
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I don't think that may people care that the price of a cert for people who don't look up the reference has come down. In my opinion it should be double that of some one who used the correct reference.
last time it went up they said the fees should stay the same for the next 10 years, (7years ago).
I too am consigned by the increase in charges added locally by the RO's, as I don't think they are legal. there is an option to do a general search that has been around for a long time it used to cost £18 but now I haven't been able to find out.
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I couldn't actually see what the refund would be if references dont match I wonder if that price has changed :(
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I find the new charges perfectly acceptable they are totally in line with inflation.
Cheers
Guy
But don't you think even that 7 pounds is rather overpriced anyway?
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just a thought....is it worth starting off a petition, to send to Gordon, I think
you can do this on line - does anyone know how to go about it ? as I know everyone (or
nearly everyone) would sign up :)
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Yeah nearly everyone Sandra! I have signed e-petitions but have no idea how to start one i'm affraid
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No time to start it but here's the link
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/
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Another good reason to put the details of any certificates that you buy into a notem next to the entry on Free BMD.
I have done this for my Jones relatives, but I might do it for all of them. If I save one person £9.25 it will have been worth it.
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Just realised this was suggested earlier in the thread. That'll teach me to read it all before I reply.
Sorry.
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ok, I am happy to try and start the petition, will need some help with the
wording and what we are trying to say...
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to…
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Someone has posted that it has gone up 3 years too early so they have broken their promise perhaps that could go in somewhere?
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The increase doesn't seem that bad to me, given how long it's been since the last one. Probably means I'll be buying one cert every 3-4 weeks, rather than 2-3. It's more annoying that you don't get a cheaper rate when you've spent hours trawling through the index to find the right event, and then provide the reference.
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Regardless of whether you can still afford them there is still a principle issue here where they said they wouldn't put it up for a further 3 years, and if it needed to go up why didn't they do it 50p here 50p there instead of adding on 32% or whatever the exact figure was. I am at a loss as to understand why it is so costly even if you take off postage and the cost of an envelope and paper for cert that only brings it down to say £8 how can it cost £8 to go to the correct file pull out the correct cert photcopy it stick it in the post? Providing they do searches logically they must be able to get a fair few done in an hour, it isn't exactly rocket science when you are telling them exactly where the document you want is. Anyway I shall order the certs i really really want on credit card before it goes up and only order a cert in future if it is from somewhere far away.
Sarah
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If they offered the option of sending a photocopy via email at a cheaper rate I think many of us would be willing to settle for that - if people want to obtain the actual certificate then they could pay the higher rate. That way they could cut the cost of post and package, particularly if sending certificates abroad. In my case it's the information rather than the certificate that's important. It works for scotlandspeople so I don't know why it isn't offered here.
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ok, opening sentence...
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to review the increase
in cost for GRO certificates
then we have up to 1000 words to expand on this !
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Good start Sandra! I don't know if it is worth mentioning that it should in this day and age all be electronic, the cost of family history research is already expensive and that there is no extra benefit in us paying more money (or is there?)
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A couple of weeks ago I purchased a death certificate from GROS through Scotlandspeople at a cost of £10.
"What a rip off" thought I, when compared to our GRO price of £7. Add to that the fact that it took nearly two weeks to arrive from Edinburgh.
So when GRO emailed asking,in the form of a survey, what I thought of them, I was quite complimentary:
"I think your prices are reasonable" was one comment I drooled.
"Your service is second to none" I fawned.
"I think you're great and you should all get a pay rise...."..............well, maybe not.
So folks, I reckon it's my fault. Sorrrrrrrrryyyyy!
David
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[quote ]
last time it went up they said the fees should stay the same for the next 10 years, (7years ago).
Could someone find a definitive source about what was said about future price increases 7 years ago please.
i suspect any undertaking given 7 years ago would have been rather wishy washy and not as definitive as suggested
(However, should I be wrong I apologise in advance)
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so far.....
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to review the increase
in cost for GRO certificates
On behalf of the many thousands of genealogists I urge the Prime Minister
to review the increase in cost of a certificate from £7.00 to £9.25 an increase of
32%.
In 2003 when the last increase was introduced, it was stated that there would
be no further increases for 10 years.
The majority of researchers would be happy to receive certificates by email
Thus cutting the costs and also the time involved, along with green issues
(paper/transport)
any thoughts/suggestions/alterations
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I don't want a certificate by email - I want the lovely copy that I have always rec'd from the Gro. Even 9 quid is cheap at half the price.
I ordered 4 marriage certs from Canada - they cost me $35 each (about 30 quid) a piece. I was thrilled to get them.
If you can't afford your hobby than find one that you can afford.
9 quid is the price of 2 drinks - in London - a case of cat food - and a weeks worth of jumping up and down at the gym!
I think the GRO is wonderful and sends me all the wonderful stuff I need. The cost of living has gone up - we are in a recession - Stuff has to be paid for somehow. If you can't afford the certs - give up genealogy until you can afford it.
Indi
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No it is cheaper than it used to be pre internet ordering.
Cheers
Guy
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If they offered the option of sending a photocopy via email at a cheaper rate I think many of us would be willing to settle for that - if people want to obtain the actual certificate then they could pay the higher rate. That way they could cut the cost of post and package, particularly if sending certificates abroad. In my case it's the information rather than the certificate that's important. It works for scotlandspeople so I don't know why it isn't offered here.
The answer to that is very simple what you are suggesting would be illegal.
This government in its inimitable blundering way tried to introduce such a system(White Paper 'Civil Registration: Vital Change' 2002) but they did not understand the law of the land. As usual they tried to take shortcuts but were humiliated and had to withdraw their plans.
The only chance of getting the law changed will come when a competent government sits in Westminster.
Cheers
Guy
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Indi, I didn't mean to imply that everyone should automatically get an email copy - just that it would be cheaper for the GRO to do that, and some of us would be willing to accept an electronic copy in order to save money.
Over the years I've bought many certificates that have turned out to be mistakes - result of common surnames. Sometimes there are two or more people who could be part of your family, and buying a certificate (or maybe all 3 birth, marriage and death certs) is the only way to decide which is the right one. In those cases the new charge would be a real disincentive.
Guy, how did Scotland manage to achieve the electronic system? Are the Scots just less incompetent?? I'm not pushing their system - they do it electronically, and still charge more (tho' they also give more details).
Lesley
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Scotland has a devolved system and is free to make its own laws.
It is due to this that they could change the law regarding provision of certificates.
In the same manner their Freedom of Information Act prevents the process applying to census information.
I should also point out that the Scottish system only has to cope with a small proportion of registrations that a system covering England and Wales would have to cope with.
Cheers
Guy
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Well judging by a recent experience I have had with a non appearance of an ordered certificate, I would say they could cut costs by sorting out their staff. >:(
After 2 weeks of cert not appearing, I sent an email. 2 weeks later with no reply I phoned and the answer was, ahh you don't have a post code on your details on the system so the post office won't be able to find you.
I replied something along the lines of well I've had some hundreds of successful certificates from you without a problem!
Sorry I'll add your postcode in and can you send an email asking for a resend!!!!! ::) :o
So I resent another email and eventually my certificate arrived and thankfully it was the right one! ;D
Not exactly an efficient complaints system
Kerry
Yeah I had a similar experience yesterday & today - Spent 10 minutes 'in a queue' with (and I quote) " there are currenty ZERO people in the queue ahead of you" ......... ok well mr or mrs Zero spent 10 minutes on their call!
When I got thru & actualy spoke to someone & explained my problem - that the childs 1st name & the last numbers of the index were unclear & how did i order the cert as I needed the parents names from it so I couldnt supply them to check it (I KNOW its mine, the chlds name is very unusual)
the answer I got was to pur BOTH numbers I thought it might be on the reference.......... and if that didnt work to order it & call back after
OK , so I went to order it & it wouldnt TAKE both numbers cos it will only take 6 digits in the page numbe - and I had 8!
So I ordered the cert & some others, noted down the reference as I had been told to ............... called back today & queued again .................. only to be told by someone else that they couldnt access the order to do anything and if it wasnt right they would 're-index' it (whatever that means!
wish they would all read the same info sheets before giving advice cos i will NOT be happy if I have wasted money cos of incorrect info!
Gaille
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Perhaps we should all agree to not buy from GRO when the price goes up and only buy from the local office (i see some are online and so easier) they would be in a bit of a mess if they all did that.
Ours only has a link to the GRO, but I know you can pick up local ones from the registry office - but at GRO prices.
I;m going to do a wedding fayre there shortly, so I will have a nice long chat with the registrars n see what will happen in April!
If they stay at £7.00 i will be ordering them locally
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Hi Gaille
It looks like it will be 9 GDP from the Local Offices according to the fees on link below.
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/1569.htm
Andy
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wow have you seen the prices for fees to perform a wedding for housebound or 'detained' people?
its almost Doubled!
'Detained' I am not too bothered about - for obvious reasons thats mainly of their own doing (ok please dont bite my head off!)
but housebound people? thats a lot of money to add on especialy when u think housebound generaly impies the person is too sick to marry elsewhere!
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Ours only has a link to the GRO, but I know you can pick up local ones from the registry office - but at GRO prices.
It's usually preferable to obtain a cert from the local register office when possible (which it isn't always, of course).
Never forget that the GRO certificates are copies of transcriptions, not copies of the original documents. Many, although not all, of the local register offices supply copies of the true document with the original handwriting. If you are lucky enough to require certificates from these offices then there is no contest - local office wins every time. Some go to a lot more trouble for us too.
On reflection, I am leaning towards the view that the GRO cannot cope with the volume of requests for genealogy certificates, and that the price increase, along with the withdrawal of the checking option, is designed to reduce the number of applications.
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Well if that is what they are after it seems they will have their desired effect because whether people think it is acceptable or not most agree they will have to cut the number they request as a consquence. I just wonder if this is the case why offer this service at all, or why not limit it to requests in the last 100 yrs, and if it is an issue for GRO Southport alone why is it also rising in Local Registrars offfie too?
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On reflection, I am leaning towards the view that the GRO cannot cope with the volume of requests for genealogy certificates, and that the price increase, along with the withdrawal of the checking option, is designed to reduce the number of applications.
Sorry, but I think that's really not true. An extra £2.25 won't put most people off, but it will put extra money into the government's coffers, to help pay for the billions that it lost by failing to properly regulate the banking system. There's enough people unemployed at the moment to employ more staff at the GRO to cope with demand, if that was really the problem. I doubt whether a petition to the PM will make any difference to the decision
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I, along with many other people who have been tracing their ancestors for many years, have a number of "wrong" certificates. Would it not be possible for Rootschat to host a forum where unwanted certificates could be listed? There must be thousands out there and a simple index of Year/Quarter/Surname could be devised. Personally, all I would want is recompense for post and packing and the opportunity not to have to pay the full GRO price.
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Post details of unwanted certificates here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,153.0.html
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I don't think I would mind so much about the price if there was a better way of checking that I am ordering the correct certificate.
Luzzu
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Hi
Yes! but a lot are transcribed & indexed and worth a try. This website link below sometimes if they cover the area of look up that one wants and give the mothers maiden name with a birth GRO index, from this look at marriages of the bride and grooms in Free BMD's website that match the surnames nearest to the birth year (national wild card search) It takes while and a calculator !but gives results
http://www.genopro.com/genealogy-links/details.aspx?id=20&t=www.ukbmd.org.uk
Marriages before 1911c
The use of the first census year after a marriage for location or first sibling birth place many help track down the church of marriage,
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this is an appeal to everyone !! Please
put a postem on FreeBMD for every single cert you have.
If everyone did this it would be a great help to people dithering about buying a cert
eadaoin
as Quote
Info like location- Father and Mothers names can be found from family records (like Family Bibles) parish registers- grave MI's extra (ie pre 1866 as for age at death) that can be put on postems as well as cert info.
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Hi All
Buying certs is expensive if there are a few to buy! most people rush off to buy Great grans certificates. Please think first!
Contact family history societies first of area of research as they have a lot of information on computer and CD or in bookform!, this cost if you have few certs to buy can be offsett!. Try and work out a possible marriage of parents with the use of census info free in Library edition of An*st*y dot thingie -Example: - say Joe Blogg married possible wife of 2 names given being Nora Smith and a Mary White-thus look for a Joe & Mary Blogg and a Joe & Nora Blogg in the census that may fit with a run of sibling etc- if your lucky there will only be one entry in the census that fits. This does not always work in very common surnames but its worth trying before buying certs that soon will be £10 as Gov in yearly increases.
Local libraries have a lot of the same Family History society info in book form and index at hand to the experienced librarian in ancestry and know how to look up fast! their advise is given free over the phone or a small look up charge!! again off sett against GRO cert charges! when looking for a number of people or siblings of GT/GT Granddads with familes of anything up to 10 children those days. Average about 5 kids= about £50 in cert cost with marriage and sibling birth certs of 5 kids with new charges
Dobby
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this might be the link regarding the last price rise
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/fee1202.pdf
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this might be the link regarding the last price rise
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pdfdir/fee1202.pdf
interesting link.
I note there is no mention of a ten yeat price freeze from 2003 that some people had been touting.
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Reply 83
When I got thru & actualy spoke to someone & explained my problem - that the childs 1st name & the last numbers of the index were unclear & how did i order the cert as I needed the parents names from it so I couldnt supply them to check it (I KNOW its mine, the chlds name is very unusual)
you can always send an email to
UnclearFiche @ ips.gsi.gov.uk (remove spaces before and after @ )
and ask for clarification before ordering
Hope this helps
Dawn
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why not limit it to requests in the last 100 yrs,
Rah1980 (presumably your year of birth). That might be OK for you, but my parents were born 99 years ago (they are now deceased) and their parents up to 130 years ago, so for people of my age, there would be little point in us trying to get BMD certs, if they were limited to the last 100 years. Maybe limit requests to certificates older than 100 years. ;D
LIzzie
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I only said a 100 years because I assumed (although I don't know) that if for some reason I needed to get a copy of mine if I had lost it that would be where I would need to apply, (I can't imagine many 101 year olds needing copies of theirs) and they could let the local registar issue the old ones for family history if it was as someone said a ploy to limit how many we request (which logically goes against everything I think about the government ie money grabbing). Anyway hope that clears that up, I certainly wasn't trying to limit your family history reseach, and although I was indeed born in 1980 I still want to trace the ancestors as far back as possible!
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Rah
The only problem with getting the local registrar to issue old certificates, is that my ancestors came from all round the UK, so I would have to contact each local office individually each time I wanted a certificate, GRO is much more convenient for me, especially if I have the appropriate reference numbers. I suppose like everyone else, I'll either buy certificates less frequently, or just grin and bear it and pay up.
Lizzie
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Thanks to Neil for starting this thread. A 32% increase would only seem fair if it were applied across all services - which it hasn't!
Has anyone noticed the cost of the priority service with reference has only gone up 40p whereas priority no reference and offline priority applications will be going DOWN in price?!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess Neil will benefit from the changes to priority services more than the rest of us! Lucky man!
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Whilst I am not happy about the increase I suppose the fact the price has stayed the same for 7 years one ought to be thankful.
I have usually been ordering 3 certs at a time but think I will have to cut back to only 2 at a time.
I do have to say that some weeks ago I had ordered 3 certs but only two turned up. I waited for two weeks then sent an e-mail to Southport. As luck would have it it was the middle cert that hadn't arrived so I quoted all the relevant details. I received an answer two days later saying they would send me another copy which I received with the covering paperwork stamped priority post.
So for me personally I have found their service very good.
Jean
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50% of our expenditure is on Priority's not 50% of our certs.
I think a bigger point is the checking point will no longer be offered, of all our orders 50% have checking points and half of them are not produced thus we used to get a £3.50 refund (or £3 I cant remember) that could add 12.5% to my yearly spend before the price increase.
So the price increase (16.5% AV priority and standard) on top of the 12.5% because we will no longer get checking point refunds could add £45k thousand to our costs or 45% I think you will realise that I will not be benefiting very much.
I hope that maths makes sense please tell me if it doesn't work out.
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Moderator comment: this thread edited - please see below
I realise that political threads are rightly banned on rootschat, and make this contribution in an attempt to balance political contricutions which have already been posted*.
* and removed by Moderator
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I think you will realise that I will not be benefiting very much.
I certainly do - was just trying to put a positive spin for at least one of us! However, looking at your maths I can see what a huge increase it's going to be for you.
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It will of course affect all Heir Hunter companies equally.
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Please let me remind you that no political views, of any stripe, should be posted on Rootschat - in order to retain friendly relations between our members!
These are the T&Cs that we have all signed up to.
Many thanks!
:D
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Duly noted Arran. You moderators may be in for an interesting few weeks.
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Duly noted Arran. You moderators may be in for an interesting few weeks.
We rely on the goodwill of our contributors - and a big stick, lol!
;)
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Lot of money to spend?-I usually get answers in days from libraries and FHS if not the same day by email or phone using parish Bap Marriage Burials and MI's
Costly GRO.
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Looking at the link posted by Andycand, can someone explain to me the difference between -
Certificate issued by Superintendant Registrar formerly £7 Now £9.25
AND
Certificate issued by Registrar otherwise than at the time of registration formerly £3.50 now £7.
Surely all/most of certs. issued for family history come into the latter category anyway?
There does not seem to be any mention of a time scale.
Kooky
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when you register a birth, Marriage or Death they ask how many copies you want it is for each copy you will now have to pay 7 pound
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Thank you! I don't think this is made very clear!
Kooky
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No3 at local level registration
Certificate issued by a registrar otherwise than at the time of registration
was £3.50 new price £7
any ideas whats the difference to normal now £7 per cert at local register offices
Have we been paying too much out of ignorance
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Looking at the link posted by Andycand, can someone explain to me the difference between -
Certificate issued by Superintendant Registrar formerly £7 Now £9.25
AND
Certificate issued by Registrar otherwise than at the time of registration formerly £3.50 now £7.
Surely all/most of certs. issued for family history come into the latter category anyway?
There does not seem to be any mention of a time scale.
Kooky
I would have thought most certificates for family history researchers come from either the Registrar General or the Superintendant Registrar.
With only a few coming from the registrar.
Cheers
Guy
Forgot to add-
The Registrar holds the current register and can supply recent certificates.
When the register is full it is sent to the superintendant registrar.
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so far.....
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to review the increase
in cost for GRO certificates
On behalf of the many thousands of genealogists I urge the Prime Minister
to review the increase in cost of a certificate from £7.00 to £9.25 an increase of
32%.
In 2003 when the last increase was introduced, it was stated that there would
be no further increases for 10 years.
The majority of researchers would be happy to receive certificates by email
Thus cutting the costs and also the time involved, along with green issues
(paper/transport)
any thoughts/suggestions/alterations
I think we should agree on some wording and get a petition underway.
Luzzu
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so far.....
We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to review the increase
in cost for GRO certificates
On behalf of the many thousands of genealogists I urge the Prime Minister
to review the increase in cost of a certificate from £7.00 to £9.25 an increase of
32%.
In 2003 when the last increase was introduced, it was stated that there would
be no further increases for 10 years.
The majority of researchers would be happy to receive certificates by email
Thus cutting the costs and also the time involved, along with green issues
(paper/transport)
any thoughts/suggestions/alterations
I think we should agree on some wording and get a petition underway.
Luzzu
Hi Guy
Ar'nt you put on this subject as organising petitions
Dobby
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I was beginning to wonder if everyone had gone off the idea of
a petition !
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I was beginning to wonder if everyone had gone off the idea of
a petition !
well if you do go ahead with your petition I think you should drop the bit about the 10 year price gurantee in 2003 as no one has been able to substantiate it!
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This will probably cause a reduction in cert orders.
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This will probably cause a reduction in cert orders.
At first it might but given time and especially around the time WDYTYA airs you can bet that the ordering levels would be more or less the same I would have thought.
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I doubt it will make any difference to what I order. I generally order two or three a month.
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Hi Guy
Ar'nt you put on this subject as organising petitions
Dobby
No I think petitions are counter productive.
I would image the answer to your petition would be something along the lines of-
"If we allow the fee for certificates to remain at £7 that would mean that millions of tax payers were subsidising the production of the requested certificates.
We do not think in these times of economic hardship that tax payers should be asked to fund other people's hobbies."
Apart from that I personally think the price rise is in line with inflation over the seven years and perfectly acceptable.
Cheers
Guy
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Going by the large number of people doing ancestry! I think some people in a coming event may be concerned over this issue! in marginal thingies! if informed
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It will make a difference to what certificates I buy. There are very few that I really need but there are many that I would like.
I will now buy the few and the others, which I would have purchased a two or three at a time, I shall now leave.
I have signed petitions before but now realise that they are a complete waste of time.
I don't agree with the price increase, I didn't agree with the original price.
Selina
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I would image the answer to your petition would be something along the lines of-
"If we allow the fee for certificates to remain at £7 that would mean that millions of tax payers were subsidising the production of the requested certificates
This has never been a problem before, therefore why should it be a problem now? All the way through the recession the prices have remained the same, and their reasoning that it 'would make things easier' for customers is pure idiocy.
Matt
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Going by the large number of people doing ancestry! I think some people in a coming event may be concerned over this issue! in marginal thingies! if informed
Perhaps but vastly more people are concerned about fuel prices, provision of essential services etc that make a £2.25p increase in certificates insignificant.
What would win more votes a 5p or even a 1p reduction in fuel (petrol, diesel) or a £2.50p. reduction in certificates.
That is the way MPs would think, family history would not even cause a blip on their radar.
Cheers
Guy
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At the risk of getting shot down, I think the revised charges are reasonable compared to my other hobbies - a new paperback is £8 or so, cinema tickets at about £9, a concert at my local music centre is at least £20. At least with the certificate, I have it to look at forever. It is not free to provide these services - staff want a decent wage, computer systems and buildings need to be maintained, correct physical storage is not a cheap commodity. Yes, I will think twice before ordering a certificate but only to make as sure as I can that I am ordering the correct certificate and I will be examining other sources such as parish records, transcriptions and so on for clues more carefully. Maybe it will make my research more thorough ;)
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Hi all
So the way i see it is this, the GRO themselves say they get over 2million requests a year, lets say all are of normal standard rate, thats £14million the price increase will make that £18.5 million, if they cant make money from that then thats their fault. A serious question here is what do they have to do to make that £7, from me clicking the order button to it dopping through the door, what work is involved. Il tell you what this is to all you that think its ok. Family history used to be a niche part of the market, but in the last few years its growth has been massive, so I always knew this would happen, every time something gets popular the price goes up, not cos its more work but because they know they cam rob a lot more people and gain a lot more money, some may knock down how many they buy but most wont and all this money like everything in this country will got to the suits who do nothing but count bonuses all year even after failing to do their job.
An Angry pool
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Hi
It is not free to provide these services - staff want a decent wage, computer systems and buildings need to be maintained, correct physical storage is not a cheap commodity
A serious question here is what do they have to do to make that £7, from me clicking the order button to it dopping through the door, what work is involved.
On top of the staff actually dealing with the requests there would be other staff such as reception, accounts, administration, management, cleaners, IT staff then there is power, computers, phones etc. and no doubt there are more costs I've not listed.
If the GRO run at a loss then the taxpayers are subsidising it, as an Australian citizen I should be rather pleased that the British taxpayer is subsidising mine, and the many others from overseas, hobby but I doubt if my English relatives would agree and consequently believe its only fair that the costs of the service should be recovered from fees and believe the new fees are reasonable.
Has anyone checked to see if there are any sort of budget documents to support the increase?
Andy
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The more people that use the GRO the more they will pay for computers and lights and heating, ie if u have 20 pcs and they are used 65 % thats not good cos they will still be on and wont be paying for the leccy they use, All the "permanent fixtures"will be there and getting paid wether u get 1 cert order or 1000, surely the best thing to do is get 1000 and get the overheads to pay for themselves, they get 14 million to pay for all that equipment and wages do people really think they cant afford to pay for that with £14 million, Just how much are these people getting paid?????
At this time I have 33 certs so if they had been bought at the new price it would be a difference of £74, mite not sound a lot but with that £74 i could have bought another 10 certs!!
Just to clear, my point is not that tax payers should pay, my point is tax payers shouldn't need to. yes we can all expect things to go up, thats life but to jump from 7 to 9.25 in one swoop is surely a big jump too far. I think the problem is that too many companies now use the recession as an excuse to exploit people.
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Pure hypothesis, but is the real issue that GRO have just realised that it is part of their duty to do the searches so they should not be charging for it?
Hence to get back the cost, they are going to make everyone pay the same as if a search was involved and to "encourage" people to do their own searches and not add to the work they are putting a "time penalty"on the ones with searches.
I presume this means that if they fail to provide a certificate that conforms to the requirements specified by the customer then they will now have to pay back all the money, as with any other other business.
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Interesting point Dudley, hopefully the Mandarin in charge of this sector has his minions watching this thread.
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Yes, I will think twice before ordering a certificate but only to make as sure as I can that I am ordering the correct certificate
Thats going to be harder now that the 'Reference Checking' service will be withdrawn.
The GRO is already funded by the Taxpayer; it was set up like that. If there is now a remit to run 'break even' or even profitable on 'value added' services, then their books should be open to inspection.
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"The only chance of getting the law changed will come when a competent government sits in Westminster."
Not anytime soon then Guy!
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competent government
Isn't that an oxymoron?
Andy
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I think competent civil servant would fit that bill better!
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when you register a birth, Marriage or Death they ask how many copies you want it is for each copy you will now have to pay 7 pound
When I registered my parents' deaths (not at the same time), the registrar asked how many copies of the death certificate I wanted, as she knew that some banks and other companies want original deaths certs, not photocopies. I had 6 each time, and all that happened was she put 6 pieces of the appropriate paper in the printer and printed off 6 copies. I thought £3.50 was a lot to pay for each copy, especially as apart from the extra paper, all the registrar had to do was type 6, rather than 1 when typing in the number of copies. Now it is to be £7 it really is a rip off.
Lizzie
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Isn't that an oxymoron?
Andy
Aren't all politicians Moron's......oxy or otherwise ;D ;D ;D
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So far there have been 140 replies to this thread and just a couple in favour of this unjustified price-hike, on the grounds that it is in line with inflation. In my opinion the original price of £7 was a rip-off and the new price even more so, regardless of inflation. I can get a will from my county archives for the very reasonable sum of £3 and that might run to a dozen pages or more. I guess it's only a matter of time before they double or triple that price on the grounds that it shouldn't be subsidised by the council tax payers. I hope no local authority chief execs on their £500K salaries are reading this! >:(
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I hope no local authority chief execs on their £500K salaries are reading this! >:(
there is not a single local authority chief executive on a salary of £500k or anything like that.
Making statements like that makes it easy for the bigwigs at the GRO to rubbish all the relevant and considered posts on this thread as they merely point to the foolish ones and tar all the others with the same brush ::)
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there is not a single local authority chief executive on a salary of £500k or anything like that.
Making statements like that makes it easy for the bigwigs at the GRO to rubbish all the relevant and considered posts on this thread as they merely point to the foolish ones and tar all the others with the same brush ::)
I believe what I said was indeed relevant and considered and the last line was added for the benefit of those who have some sense of humour. To that end the £500K reference was a slight exaggeration, though we know for a fact that the average is £150K.
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Thank you for your clarification.
Alas I think it has made the situation worse not better ....
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If you live in Manchester as I do you could always visit Manchester Central Library - I wanted a copy of my Grandparents marriage cert and went to Manchester Central Library - if you can get there on a Thursday there a volunteers who help you find the details you are looking and then you can take the reel of film to a machine and print the cert, which I did and it only cost me 50p - quite a big difference than forking out £7.00 but only if you are lucky enough to have something like Central Library.
Unfortunatley at the moment the Library is having a refurb so it is closed for a few months as I wanted to return to find birth and death certs, until it re-opens I am going to have a look at the records in Salford Library Museum as that is where nearly all my family lived.
Annie :)
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With the GRO putting up their prices, the one concern which has been aired here is that all the other places where you can get copies such as Registrars Offices and local resources will also put up their prices in line with the GRO. Especially if more people go to them as they are cheaper.
Many of the local resources just do not have the staff to help everyone who may turn up. They could also start charging more per hour for postal searches (at present it is around £25.00).
Maybe we should all petition our local MP's about this.
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If you live in Manchester as I do you could always visit Manchester Central Library - I wanted a copy of my Grandparents marriage cert and went to Manchester Central Library - if you can get there on a Thursday there a volunteers who help you find the details you are looking and then you can take the reel of film to a machine and print the cert, which I did and it only cost me 50p - quite a big difference than forking out £7.00 but only if you are lucky enough to have something like Central Library.
.... I wanted to return to find birth and death certs
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're talking about parish registers.
The original marriage cert held by the local registrar is similar to the parish register entry for a church wedding; couples sign two forms, one for the church records and one for the registrar. So it is usually possible to get a copy of the church entry at low cost from the record office which holds the parish registers (in this case, Manchester Central Library). This will contain the same info as the marriage certificate.
However, baptism and burial entries in the parish registers do not normally contain the same information as the certificates, and of course not all births and deaths are necessarily recorded in the PRs. So not as useful as the marriages as an alternative to buying certificates.
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Instead of us all complaining on here, please do what I have just done & contact your Local MP.
I have just emailed mine (Nick Raynsford) and asked for his comments on this sudden 32% price hike.
Don't just sit there moaning, try do something about it.
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I would image the answer to your petition would be something along the lines of-
"If we allow the fee for certificates to remain at £7 that would mean that millions of tax payers were subsidising the production of the requested certificates
This has never been a problem before, therefore why should it be a problem now? All the way through the recession the prices have remained the same, and their reasoning that it 'would make things easier' for customers is pure idiocy.
Matt
I can't understand why they have not rounded it off at £10 a certificate that would make things easier for all.
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for anyone still aggrieved at the price increase the accounts for the GRO are on the IPS website
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/index.htm
Go to the corporate section, look at the publications and the accounts for 2008-9 are listed. On page 33 of 75 of the accounts it gives the breakdown for the GRO and shows they made a massive loss in the year in question.....
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I hope no local authority chief execs on their £500K salaries are reading this! >:(
there is not a single local authority chief executive on a salary of £500k or anything like that.
Making statements like that makes it easy for the bigwigs at the GRO to rubbish all the relevant and considered posts on this thread as they merely point to the foolish ones and tar all the others with the same brush ::)
Yes, but should someone on a local council earn more than the Prime Minister ?
Essex Council Chief earns £50,000 more than PM - Link (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1226289/Council-chief-earns-50-000-Prime-Minister.html)
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People have been experiencing quick deliveries of GRO certs lately. I am awaiting 5 certs which I ordered last Friday night. They haven't arrived yet but the last lot I ordered arrived on Thursday (the day before I placed my latest order) and I ordered them the previous Saturday.
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My GRO certs are beginning to take forever to arrive! (I thought the problem was with the GRO; now I'm wondering if it's with the US mail. On an order I placed 31 January, despatch date 5 February, I received one of the certs (on 25 February) but still haven't received the other two!)
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I ordered mine on Friday night so they wouldnt have recieved the order until Monday so they may arrive tomorrow or Monday.
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Please see new thread started for the petition, as promised above
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/grocertificates/
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Thanks Sandra, I have added my name, I appreciate it more than likely won't change anything but you don't know until you try, and if everybody thought like that nothing would ever change!
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Please see new thread started for the petition, as promised above
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/grocertificates/
Just out of interest Sandra did you look at the link I put up above for the accounts for the GRO that show them making a large loss at the moment - doesn't bode well for your petition
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My GRO certs are beginning to take forever to arrive! (I thought the problem was with the GRO; now I'm wondering if it's with the US mail. On an order I placed 31 January, despatch date 5 February, I received one of the certs (on 25 February) but still haven't received the other two!)
I receive mail fairly regularly from the USA; I wonder if there are problems in both directions?
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We may as well try and get the best value for our money, whether in speed of delivery, cooperative service or a better product*. Some or all of which are offered by certain Local Register Offices.
So please see if you can contribute to my thread on using local ROs.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,441803.0.html
* Never forget that the certificates issued by the GRO are scans of transcripts, and not of the original.
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Thats going to be harder now that the 'Reference Checking' service will be withdrawn.
I didn't know they were withdrawing the Reference Checking service Thats going to make things very difficult for alot of people including me who have well used names like Jones, Clark Smith etc :( :(
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Many of the local Register Offices will check for no additional cost, and refund in full if they cannot find a match.
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I must admit that in the ten years I`ve been doing Family Research I have never sent to the GRO for a Certificate ,
I`ve always applied to the local offices. Always had wonderful service, usually handwritten certs by return of post and never a complaint,
My Cousin has always dealt with the GRO and has numerous complaints about illegible printing etc in fact she sent me copies of some relatives we have in common and I was disgusted at the quality
.So I personally will continue to deal with local offices wherever possible.
They get to know you and often put in details of other members of the same
familyand most will go the extra mile if they have to search,!!!!
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im no accountant but is this "massive" loss you talk about £6627????
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I`ve always applied to the local offices. Always had wonderful service, usually handwritten certs by return of post and never a complaint,
They get to know you and often put in details of other members of the same
familyand most will go the extra mile if they have to search,!!!!
So how would I go about finding out info about local offices I have marriage cert from the GRO that I feel must have a mistake on it and reading about what info the local offices can provide feel it might be worth applying there. The local office I am referring to would cover the Methwold area of Norfolk - any ideas
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This link (http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/consumption/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&ssDocName=NCC041904&ssSourceNodeId=&ssTargetNodeId=54) should help.
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im no accountant but is this "massive" loss you talk about £6627????
Yep only that is thousands ie 6627 thousand ie £6,627,000
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How do you order from local offices? Do you send them a letter or something with your request? Because Reading & Wokingham office want the date!
???
Matt
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Is that from their website, because mostly that stuff is aimed at people needing copies of recent certificates. Why not give them a ring, or pop in next time you're at the Berks Record Office (it's next door).
Yes, I normally put down the details in a letter; the forms aren't usually designed to accommodate FH requests. You can include anything that you think might be helpful: local offices don't take things as literally as the GRO. For instance, if you say your chap was a carpenter, they don't dismiss someone described as a joiner.
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That link was great thanks Sloe Gin. Thetford is only about an hour for me might make an appointment and go up there :)
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Local offices do vary in the services that they offer, and not all of them accept genealogy applications, eg most London offices. So do check first, and please add your knowledge to the other thread. It would be good to compile an index for reference.
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Am I being stupid (probably!) but I thought £6,627,000 was like 6 million 6 hundred and 27 thousand pound and that 6 thousand 6 hundred and 27 pounds is £6,627?
Yep only that is thousands ie 6627 thousand ie £6,627,000
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Hi
Account documents are often rounded off and don't show all the zero's. In the case of the GRO the figures are rounded and the top of the column shows how many zero's are dropped ie ('000) in the case of the GRO.
GRO 2008-09 has
Total Income 18,733 ie 18,733,000
Total Expenditure 25,360 ie 25,360,000
Loss 6,627 ie 6,627,000
Andy
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Ouch, seems like poor administration, aprivate company would not show such high losses :o
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Ouch, seems like poor administration, aprivate company would not show such high losses
A private company wouldn't be constricted by pricing regulation that a government department is and would no doubt have increased rates some time ago to ensure they didn't make a loss, nor would they be subject to the same red tape as a government department.
You can purchase certificates through a large organisation for 19.99 GDP (other commercial sites are dearer) they pay 7 GDP to aquire the certificate from the GRO and then forward it to you making a healthy profit. It does make you wonder how much a private company would charge if they had the contract and prices were not regulated
Andy
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so last year they lost £6.6 million and year b4 they lost £5.9 million, but they arent going to put that down to bad management are they! no just put prices up, thats the way it works now.
think il protest with my feet or in this case my order cert button
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Exactly, the reason they make losses is because they are poorly run. We are being penalised for that with these price rises. I say give it to a private company, twenty pounds a certificate, no, I'd say in private hands we'd long ago have fully digitised indexes and be paying a lot less indeed.
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And within a year or two, it'd be owned by the French, Spanish, etc...
Just look at what's happened to our utility companies since they were privatised.
Do you really want that?????????????
David
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I know that in future I will probably try to order from Local R.O's, but in some cases it is not so easy. Some councils (Wandsworth - my pet hate!!) do not make it easy.
Luckily I am now ordering less & less, especially since so many of older the London records are on Ancestry.
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personally speaking have always been happy with the service the GRO gives and in many years never an issue,
as far as i know the certificate side is self-financing, it's all the other services connected that cost the money,
not sure if the family records centre etc are also part of the finances,
i can't imagine the huge costs to run all these departments/buildings and if they have to increase prices so be it,
and my days on this planet i am not going to stress over a couple of quid extra if i want a record of someone 100+ years etc is a small cost (again my own opinion)
never seen many people kicking up a stink over Ancestry charging £20 a pop and another £10 for a 2nd copy of same certificate, so if you click on buy record on their site for 3 certs, a nice £60 (£90 if you want 2 of each)
and i would hate to think the amount of people that do it because they don't know otherwise.
I still think at nearly £10 a certificate is vfm, can't think of many things in 7 years ish that havn't jumped in price, excluding thing like electrical items that have dropped due to technology and demand, and we have to remember that family history is still for the minority. People in Australia etc pay exactly the same price as us for the same service, do we penalise them for for living elsewhere, my own opinion no.
The majority of British people will never have a clue about prices of certificates, never visit family record centres, or the National Archives etc etc and probably don't care, again the cost to run and hold and maintain all these records must be VERY high, so if it helps in the slightest way to keep our history then i am happy it is done.
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I agree Les_looking I will still order certs from the GRO. It is very convenient, the only thing that concerns me though is that there is mention on this thread about them not offering the checking service anymore. I have Clark in my tree and the only way I can semi guarantee the correct cert is by using the checking reference. ???
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I agree Les_looking I will still order certs from the GRO. It is very convenient, the only thing that concerns me though is that there is mention on this thread about them not offering the checking service anymore. I have Clark in my tree and the only way I can semi guarantee the correct cert is by using the checking reference. ???
yep i would say that to me is a backward step, although with what they are saying it seems to be that the part payment they charge if a certificate is wrong may not have been officially imposed,
maybe someone challenged the charge forcing them to look at prices.
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I would disagree with you les about it being the minority, in my opinion this is happening because it is far more popular than just the odd person now, i know at least 5 people who are starting theirs within the next few weeks, its not just an OAP past time any more and the GRO have finally cottoned on which i knew they would, it wont be long before everything goes up because they now realise ancestry is big business and there is a lot of money to be made.
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Thing is they would sell so many more at 5 pounds each, than they ever will at 10 pounds, I'm sure this will backfire on them ultimately if the aim is to increase their profits, or judging by their losses, just to break even. OK in Australia they cost more, (always some poor souls worse off), but I do not think we should use that as a yard stick in judging our own system. The real questions we should ask are is nine pounds good value for the product and service given? and could it be done any cheaper?
Judging by the experience of myself and others expressed on this board for an unnaceptable amount of their customers the answer to the first is most definently not.
The answer to the second, given the systems in place elsewhere, (bar Australasia), and the advanced technology that exists these days, is yes absolutely it could.
So are we getting ripped off? I think so, though of course each to his own on that.
It would be nice to think the petitions going will help, but I doubt it. With great sadness, I have put my last lot of orders in for the certs I really need whilst it is still seven pounds, then I'm reluctantly finished with my English side of the tree, at least buying any certs for it, until the system changes.
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I would disagree with you les about it being the minority, in my opinion this is happening because it is far more popular than just the odd person now, i know at least 5 people who are starting theirs within the next few weeks, its not just an OAP past time any more and the GRO have finally cottoned on which i knew they would, it wont be long before everything goes up because they now realise ancestry is big business and there is a lot of money to be made.
a lot of people maybe interested in family history, but a SMALL minority actually spend money on it, or get fed up after a week or so,
you only have to listen to people on this forum that amongst their family they say they are on their own,
certificates last year 2 million, that includes those applying for them for passports or replacements etc,
ask people on this forum how many they have bought in the last year and then break that down for total bought and it doesn't add up to a huge amount of different people buying.
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There is another way at looking at the price increase.
More and more people are now buy certificates, overheads will have gone up over the last 7 years - stationery (paper, inks envelopes etc.,) postage, time taken for getting the getting the books holding the certificates out, photo-copying them and returning them to their original place, and so on.
Also have the number of staff increased? Maybe they intend to employ more people. If so perhaps this will shorten the time of receipt from when we place out orders.
I personally think that we have all been very lucky the price has been held at GBP7 for so long.
Jean
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We can all sit here all day pointing this out pointing that out, the fact is vote with your money and find better cheaper ways to get the certs ieLocal Reg office, the problem with that being that next year due to "high demand" their prices will go up!
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We can all sit here all day pointing this out pointing that out, the fact is vote with your money and find better cheaper ways to get the certs ieLocal Reg office, the problem with that being that next year due to "high demand" their prices will go up!
That's great if your research is local to where you live, but given the costs of travel these days, going more than 20 miles to get a certificate from a "Local Reg Office" is not going to be cost-effective.
I agree Les_looking I will still order certs from the GRO. It is very convenient, the only thing that concerns me though is that there is mention on this thread about them not offering the checking service anymore. I have Clark in my tree and the only way I can semi guarantee the correct cert is by using the checking reference. ???
They are not doing away with anything. They are now charging a flat fee, which actually means that for some services the price will go down. For example, an online application with no GRO reference supplied currently costs £10 - in April this will drop to £9.25.
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Sadly for me, my local office has always been and will remain higher in cost than GRO so I will be continuing to use GRO. I have no choice.
Kerry
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We can all sit here all day pointing this out pointing that out, the fact is vote with your money and find better cheaper ways to get the certs ieLocal Reg office, the problem with that being that next year due to "high demand" their prices will go up!
Local Register Office rates are going up to 9GDP so you won't be saving much.
Andy
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Unless none of your family moved in the last almost 200 years, it's not your local office that you need to worry about.
Use of local Registration Offices has always involved the extra step of finding roughly where the family event occurred. Then you apply, usually by post, to the Office that most likely registered the event. If you send all the details that you know, including whether this is certain or just highly probable they can then use that to find the record or at least establish that they don't have it.
They usually have a phone number for a real person who can answer questions on what the details on the cert mean or sometimes even confirm in advance if you expect a particular father or a mother's maiden name, for instance. As an example, I have even been able to query whether a time of birth indicated a twin, and in that case no, all the entries on the pages around that date had times entered and no evidence for another child in my family at the same time.
This method also has the huge advantage that what you get in return is the "primary" evidence of the event registration, rather than a copy that was sent on to GRO (hence their certs are only "secondary" evidence).
Obviously, it does not guarantee that the details recorded are correct but, especially with the photocopy entries, it does ensure that you get what was recorded in the first place and not what someone else thought it said.
And with a Thursday to Saturday turn-around as I experienced this week, this system seems more efficient and much more suited to historical searches.
Sadly, as someone has pointed out earlier, not all local Registration Offices offer this facility but, where they do, then it would be my preference every time.
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Thing is they would sell so many more at 5 pounds each, than they ever will at 10 pounds, ...
I'm definitely with you on this one richarde1979.
Personal example,
England&Wales certified copies, direct line only and less than half a dozen extra's just to confirm difficult connections.
Irish photocopies of entries at approximately half the price, "all the sisters and the cousins and the aunts", etc. when I can find them, to build up a full picture of each family and work out the stories about how these families lived.
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So as the GRO know, they are holding us to ransom. So they can pretty much charge what they want and will continue to do so, I would bet my years wage that it wont be another 7 yeas till they go up. This time in 2 years we will be having this same discussion, if we are lucky!
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I shall still order from the GRO but not as many certs as I do now.
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"More and more people are now buy certificates, overheads will have gone up over the last 7 years - stationery (paper, inks envelopes etc.,) postage, time taken for getting the getting the books holding the certificates out, photo-copying them and returning them to their original place, and so on."
Which just proves the system, in a digital age, is hopelessly outdated and IS the problem, not the pricing. I only assume the people who regard nine pounds as good value for a single certificate have no ancestors outside England and Wales, and this view is the result of a genuine unawareness of the much better, and fantastically cheaper or even free systems in place in many places outside our borders.
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Thing is they would sell so many more at 5 pounds each, than they ever will at 10 pounds, ...
I'm definitely with you on this one richarde1979.
Personal example,
England&Wales certified copies, direct line only and less than half a dozen extra's just to confirm difficult connections.
Irish photocopies of entries at approximately half the price, "all the sisters and the cousins and the aunts", etc. when I can find them, to build up a full picture of each family and work out the stories about how these families lived.
Spot on with my sentiments Dudley. I have double the ancestors in England than Scotland, but have spent roughly 150 pounds on Scotlands People this year. Totally happy with the pricing and service too, no complaints, excellent value for money. In contrast, until this price rise anyway, I hadn't ordered a single certificate in England, and last year ordered perhaps 6 for the entire year.
It's a real shame too because being able to order more or less all the certificates in Scotland for not just direct line, but siblings, aunts, uncles etc, shows how all important certificates really are, and how often they open up a wealth of information on an ancestor or their family, or an avenue you were totally unaware of. You end up with a comprehensive, interesting, and this is the most important part in my eyes, WELL researched and ACCURATE tree.
In contrast in England and Wales, you budget yourself to JUST what you can afford, and with certs now approaching eight times that of downloading one on Scotlands people, well unless your lucky enough to be fairly well off you are left cutting corners out of neccesity.
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Which just proves the system, in a digital age, is hopelessly outdated and IS the problem, not the pricing. I only assume the people who regard nine pounds as good value for a single certificate have no ancestors outside England and Wales, and this view is the result of a genuine unawareness of the much better, and fantastically cheaper or even free systems in place in many places outside our borders.
Some American & Canadian historical certificates are certainly available online either as images or transcriptsbut far from all, Scottish historical registers are on Scotlandspepole but if you want an actual certificate or its non historical it costs 10 GDP ( you can do your own transcriptions in some locations in Scotland) but as for Australian certificates they are far dearer than England (some states do have online indexes with more info than England) but getting a non historical certificate is extremely difficult. Just to give you an example, I was born in England so anyone can apply for a copy of my birth certificate, I married in Australia so to get a copy of my marriage certificate you would need to complete a form and include 3 forms of Identification for yourself (originals if applying in person, if applying by mail photocopies must be authenticated by a police officer) written permission from myself and 3 forms of my Identification. I certainly don't begrudge paying 9.25 GDP for a certificate
It would be ideal if the GRO had a similar system to Scotland but to do so would require legislation and also find the money to set it up which could be quite substantial. I think I read that Scotland used Millenium Funding to start there system, unfortunately today there are far more important things that require funding so I very much doubt if there will be any change in the near future
Andy
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I only assume the people who regard nine pounds as good value for a single certificate have no ancestors outside England and Wales, and this view is the result of a genuine unawareness of the much better, and fantastically cheaper or even free systems in place in many places outside our borders.
Hi, GRONI (Northern Ireland's Gro) is far more expensive than England and Wales GRO ( where 50% of my ancestors are from, my mum is N Irish and my dad is Welsh)
I've been paying 11 pounds for a certified cert for the past few years with no postage charges on top From N Ireland Gro online ordering service ( I'm in Aus), whilst my certified certs from the England and Wales Gro have been only 7 pounds - Groni 's current costs are 12 pounds plus postage costs on top, - still far more expensive than England and Wales . Don't assume people who think 9 pounds is good value have no ancestors outside England and Wales.
Kind Regards :)
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Good point about funding,Andy.
I think I'd rather have a free health service and expensive death certificates than the other way round.
David
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Which just proves the system, in a digital age, is hopelessly outdated and IS the problem, not the pricing. I only assume the people who regard nine pounds as good value for a single certificate have no ancestors outside England and Wales, and this view is the result of a genuine unawareness of the much better, and fantastically cheaper or even free systems in place in many places outside our borders.
As Cell says above you are now getting into assuming what people think and their motives,
as someone who has travelled to the Ukraine, travelled over 200 miles to London a few times,
i have many certificates we started collecting (IN PERSON) from the 80's from various records offices, i like to think i can calculate what in MY OPINION is VFM,
i do a lot of my research online now and yes would be great if EVERYTHING was cheaper, i am pretty sure those years ago for many of these certificates i have the cost was £10 maybe more? so the cost under the new prices delivered is still cheaper,
i just think your assumption because others have a different view and are naive is unfair.
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There has been a lot of spouting about the GRO being badly run and so losing this £6+ million pounds, but not one real fact to substantiate this.
Have you been to the GRO? They have regular open days, perhaps you should take the opportunity and see the massive amount of archives that are needed to be looked after and kept at a regular temperature to preserve the documents, some of the areas are restricted to the public for just that reason. A lot of care is taken to look after all these archives FOR YOUR BENEFIT.
After seven years surely they are entitled, by charging a realistic price, to recoup some of the losses they have incurred by subsidising YOUR hobby, and hopefully get them back into the black.
And as for going more than 20 miles to get a certificate from a "Local Reg Office" have you never heard of stamps? send them a letter and support your local post office while doing so.
Apart from one or two people, I suspect my name is going to be mud around here after that.
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Apart from one or two people, I suspect my name is going to be mud around here after that.
Not with me :) Agree with you completely!
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Apart from one or two people, I suspect my name is going to be mud around here after that.
Not at all - you're entitled to your opinion, but I think you are losing sight of one vital fact - genealogists (amateur or otherwise) are just one set of many users who make use of the GRO.
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Well my first question to you mary would be how much do these open days cost to provide, i dont care how they run or how they work, all i want is fast certs at a fair price, just like i dont care how a certain company manage to provide my broadband my satalite and my phone line, as long as its good quality at a good price
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i dont care how they run or how they work, all i want is fast certs at a fair price, just like i dont care how a certain company manage to provide my broadband my satalite and my phone line, as long as its good quality at a good price
::)
I can think of several replies to that, but suspect I'd be wasting my time in typing them.
I must admit that a large number of responses across the various threads on various forums on this subject, have confirmed my suspicions that a large number of people now expect hobbies to be subsidized, whether by the anonymous 'taxpayer', or by other researchers, Happily, I've seen enough responses giving another point of view to convince me that the "I want, must have" brigade aren't a majority yet :)
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What is so wrong in expecting value for money, and stating that some of us are not happy at the price increase? I do not expect to have my 'hobby' subsidised but let us not forget that these documents are not kept for our enjoyment but as a necessity of the government and therefore the cost of housing them should be paid for by the tax payer of which I am one. I wish I was in the financial situation where I did not care about the sudden 32% rise and I do fail to see how it costs £9.25 to produce a document and post it out to me. Perhaps if it was ran better there would not be such a deficit for example I have never ordered just one cert from the gro but have the certs ever arrived in one envelope no they have all come seperately so I recieve 5 or so envelopes with 5 lots of postage.
I also think that in this day and age the documents held by the GRO should be digitalised and made available on a government pay per view website similar to Scotland. I appreciate that there would be an initial outlay but in the long run they would run at a profit. In fact if they put a bit of effort into it they could find people willing to work on the project for free, I know I for one would transcribe documents if it meant that the documents would be available for all, but there is just to much red tape these days and not enough thought.
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Hi, GRONI (Northern Ireland's Gro) is far more expensive than England and Wales GRO ( where 50% of my ancestors are from, my mum is N Irish and my dad is Welsh)
I've been paying 11 pounds for a certified cert for the past few years with no postage charges on top From N Ireland Gro online ordering service ( I'm in Aus), whilst my certified certs from the England and Wales Gro have been only 7 pounds - Groni 's current costs are 12 pounds plus postage costs on top, - still far more expensive than England and Wales . Don't assume people who think 9 pounds is good value have no ancestors outside England and Wales.
Kind Regards :)
Cell - while the cost of certified certs in Northern Ireland IS more expensive tha E&W, at least you [may] have the option of a transcription of the entry for only £3 [only available to callers to the Belfast search room]. I think people are prepared to pay more for convenience where a GRO is not accessible from where they live, but many object to the withdrawal of a cheaper service to those who can invest their own time, rather than money, to keep down the costs of research.
It's a balance of cost against convenience and that will colour anyone's view of what is a reasonable charge. It is the removal of the lower cost/more work option which is the problem for many people, not the issue as to whether the GRO should be subsidised.
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Which just proves the system, in a digital age, is hopelessly outdated and IS the problem, not the pricing. I only assume the people who regard nine pounds as good value for a single certificate have no ancestors outside England and Wales, and this view is the result of a genuine unawareness of the much better, and fantastically cheaper or even free systems in place in many places outside our borders.
As Cell says above you are now getting into assuming what people think and their motives,
as someone who has travelled to the Ukraine, travelled over 200 miles to London a few times,
i have many certificates we started collecting (IN PERSON) from the 80's from various records offices, i like to think i can calculate what in MY OPINION is VFM,
i do a lot of my research online now and yes would be great if EVERYTHING was cheaper, i am pretty sure those years ago for many of these certificates i have the cost was £10 maybe more? so the cost under the new prices delivered is still cheaper,
i just think your assumption because others have a different view and are naive is unfair.
Les of course you are entitled to make your own mind up, and disagree with my own views until the cows come home, I respect that, if you think I was making an assumption of naivity that, in yourself at least, was misplaced, well apologise, not my intention there at all.
I do rather think the fact the certs once cost more is a bit misleading though. These prices may have been fair when technology meant the current system or ones predating it were the only option available. But in this day and age when they could digitise every certificate, the overheads of storing and producing copies of the information, could be bought down dramaticaly to virtually nil, and we should be asking serious question why this hasn't happened yet, when it has elsewhere. I know various projects have tried and failed. I think the excuse given in one was unlike Scotland the registers couldn't be scanned properly because of their binding. However Ancestry have plenty of post 1837 marriage registers scanned online for London, Family Search have just put a load on, very good quality for Norfolk. They seemed to manage alright!
I think I'm being misunderstood a fair bit, perhaps my own fault in not making my position clear enough. As an amateur genealogist I'd be totally happy to pay nine pounds a cert if I thought all that money was neccesary to preserve our history and for them to break even or even make a profit. That is not happening now, when they are already what 6 times the price of Scottish certs, they are losing money hand over fist by the sound of it. So will hiking the price and hitting the poor consumer help that?
I truly 100% believe they will make FAR more money than they ever do now once they have switched to a Scotlands People type online system, for historical certs at least. They will be happier, we will be happier. Everyones happy. As a Tax Payer, I'm happy to fund that through my taxes, OR If that is not a view shared in the wider community, I'd be equally happy to fund that through paying extra, temporarily for my certs. But lets at least start moving in the right direction.
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Silvi
I am a taxpayer and i dont expect my hobby to be subsedised by it. you are happy at the price, that is your parogative but i would still like to know from anyone how much these open days are to provide and how often. The bottom line is this, they are too much and take too long, and a great point made by Rah, I too normally order about 3 and they come on the same day, a week later may i add in 3 different envelopes, so how much is wasted on post is another great question
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I too normally oder about 3 and they come on the same day, a wekk later may i add in 3 different envelopes, so how much is wasted on post is another great question
If three different people handle your three requests, at different times within the same day, then it costs more, in time and effort, to ask if there are any other orders for "poolqwizrd" than the cost of three envelopes and three stamps.
Bob
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I have to add, to your post poolqwizrd, the service I have had from the GRO has similarly been quite poor too, certs not arriving at all, wrong certs coming when the reference was correct. Though the people on the phone are always extremely pleasant and helpful, and it eventually gets sorted, it is a pain all the same. All this does not really suggest a well run and efficient system. I've been suprised just how typical these experiences seem to be reading this and various other web boards. Incurring 6 million pounds in losses doesn't exactly paint a picture of a well run and efficient department either. :-\
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That to me seems odd, wouldnt it be better if one set person did one set order for each order and instead of treating them seperate treat them as they are, one order
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I think your service is pretty good. I can order a certificate and have it here in my hands in Canada within 2 weeks and the cost is extremley reasonable even with the new price.
Now, when I order a certificate from New York State it costs $22.00 USD for a 1 to 3 year search, of course mine are notorious for lying about ages so a 4-10 year search is $42.00 USD and it takes at least 5 MONTHS to get a response.
Karen
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That to me seems odd, wouldnt it be better if one set person did one set order for each order and instead of treating them seperate treat them as they are, one order
I think they have different people working with different sets of registers, so each application goes to the person in the appropriate section. When you imagine how many books there must be, this does seem a more efficient way.
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"Now, when I order a certificate from New York State it costs $22.00 USD for a 1 to 3 year search, of course mine are notorious for lying about ages so a 4-10 year search is $42.00 USD and it takes at least 5 MONTHS to get a response."
5 Months! Blimey...that's long Karen. I accept that our system is not the worse worldwide by a long shot, and can understand how it would appear good value and service if your used to that. Fair point. That said I don't think, from our point of view, it would neccesarily be the most positive thing to be using as a yardstick to measure our own system the poorer ones in existence. Surely we should aim to have the best and fairest system in place possible, not just settle with the consolation that ours is not the very worse out there.
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That to me seems odd, wouldn't it be better if one set person did one set order for each order and instead of treating them separate treat them as they are, one order
That use to bug me too but then one day I spoke to someone at the GRO and she gave me chapter and verse and it really is best that they do it the way they do.
I have had my gripes with the GRO in the past but on the whole I am pleased with the service they provide and all but two people I have spoken to there have been very friendly and helpful
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In that case i stand corrected ;D
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I appreciate that being the case if they are counties apart and a 100 year difference, but more often than not mine have all come from the same book and some even only pages apart and not once have they arrived together
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I seem to remember posting about this some time ago.
I sent to Southport for 2 or 3 certs. They all arrived separately and over several days.
When I was at a Family History Fair at Gateshead, I spoke to a lady on the GRO stand and asked her about it. She explained that there are different people for Bs Ms and Ds. Also they have specific years. If you send for a B.cert from 1840s eg,there might not be many enquiries and it can be dealt with quickly. If you are wanting a birth in 1912 eg, there may be lots of queries following on from 1911 census info. She said that there are too many searches going on in different depts to keep an order together efficiently. It was quicker to send them out separately.
I hope I have explained that properly! :-\
Kooky
Sloe Gin has mentioned this earlier
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sorry I miss calculated the 18% it is 32% 7 pound to 9.25 is 2.25 not 1.25 like I worked out, (next time use a calculator rather than my head when speaking on the phone!!) lesson learnt.
So it is a raise of 32%
What the GRO could have doen was to increase the amount every year for the last 7 years
4.57 would be the divided amount but of course the price rise would have to be less to then add the % again.
But if over the 7 years the price had been raised by approximatley 32 pence. Meaning if you order £100k worth of certificates each year it would have cost an extra £4571 each year ???mearly 32
so over the 7 years that would equate to a saving of £31997 pounds wow 31 grand is a lot of money to me and you could purchase an extra four thousand five hundred and seventy one certificates......
It really just depends on how you look at it - raising the price of a certificate by the price of inflation each year would have been fair - but would have also cost the tax payer money in changing leaflets with prices etc every year - but this way people have saved thousads of pounds for the last 7 years. ;)
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Reading through some of the posts even at £9.25 the price is still reasonable compared to some others.
I have decided I don't mind about the increase, even if they have done a large hike in one go.
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On the question of value for money, consider the following. These are all similar services i.e., produce and post a document, which is all that the GRO are seen as doing by many people.
Supply a copy bank statement - £25 per sheet. (My bank statement is three sheets each month).
Supply a replacement motor insurance certificate £40 (Incidentally, a replacement tax disc costs £7).
Amend motor insurance details other than at renewal (e.g. change of address) £25 (plus any additional premium of course).
Notify a change of address or phone no. for the registration for my dog's microchip £35 (per registration - I have two dogs).
I see some people think it would be cheaper if the GRO were replaced by private sector. Not sure where they get that idea from.
The point is, no-one is going to be doing any of the above for fun. They do it out of necessity, and therefore they're wide open to being ripped off with unreasonable charges. If you NEED a birth/marriage/death certificate, to apply for a passport or to claim a legacy, a charge of £9.25 suddenly looks pretty reasonable. If you WANT a certificate for use in a hobby, then if you don't like the price, don't pay it.
Simples!
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I think the top and bottom of it is simply the records have to be dragged into the 21st Century, like has already been suggested.
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On the question of value for money, consider the following. These are all similar services i.e., produce and post a document, which is all that the GRO are seen as doing by many people.....
If you NEED a birth/marriage/death certificate, to apply for a passport or to claim a legacy, a charge of £9.25 suddenly looks pretty reasonable. If you WANT a certificate for use in a hobby, then if you don't like the price, don't pay it.
Simples!
Oh well said Silvilocks; a person after my own heart. OK I am in the small time league when it comes to GRO certificates. Just a few a year and basically always when I am 'sure' they are the right ones..not just on a flight of fancy that they may be good. I cannot comprehend the big time users ordering hundreds a year, but I acknowledge the pain the rate rise will cause. As Sivilocks said, if you dont like it then dont buy them.
Service delivery from GRO to Australia has been faultless; order online for a measly seven quid and a week or so later there is the cert in my letterbox in Canberra. As one poster said, it would have been neater if the GRO had rounded the price for a cert to ten pounds. The price rise will not set me back one iota.
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I've just received the Lost Cousins newsletter. The founder, Peter Calver, is going to use the Freedom of Information Act to ask them to explain the price rise.
"How much can it possibly cost to print an A4 sheet of paper, fold it in half, and put it in an envelope?
Fortunately there is no need to conjecture, because in 2008 somebody very perspicaciously wrote to the GRO and used the Freedom of Information Act to get the answers http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/files/ips/live/assets/documents/FOI9902_response.pdf
"I have taken two steps to protect the interests of LostCousins members and other family historians with ancestors from England or Wales. My first step was to submit a Freedom of Information request requiring them to explain how they reconcile the planned price increase with the costs quoted in 2008, and asking whether they have considered adopting the same solution that the General Register Office of Scotland chose when setting up the Scotlandspeople site (where it is possible to get the same information online instantly - and for just £1.20)."
http://lostcousins.com/newsletters/latest.htm#Certs_up
Betty
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This bit is interesting:
If the entry applied for is on a digitised record - the system will automatically match it to the correct image. Only historic Births (1837-1934) and death records (1837-1957) have been digitised. All other events are on microfilm tapes.
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More details on the D.O.V.E. (Digitisation of Vital Events) project here
http://www.ips.gov.uk/cps/rde/xchg/ips_live/hs.xsl/1090.htm
Dawn
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I agree with Mary A, having read all the entries on here. Also I do send lots of letters as I think do many of us researching our Family Histories. So I support our posties (and help pay my pension!!) as well.
All hobbies with few exceptions do cost some money & some are far more expensive than others.
I spend my money on Books (reading & reference) Genealogy & music. I do not drink nor do I smoke (just a moment while I straighten my halo).
And while I do think the sudden price hike is steep (maybe the price rise could have been more gradual), the overall price may stop me ordering certs willy nilly, but will not stop me completely.
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I do wish people would compare like with like when comparing the service provided by GRO and that of Scotlandspeolple.
Forever quoting Scotlandspeople's charge of £1.20 and comparing it to £7.00/£9.25 as charged by GRO is giving folks the wrong impression.
For £1.20, S.p. will let you view the image online only. To obtain a certificate (copy of), the charge is £10.
That makes GRO's April price 75p cheaper!
David
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I totally agree, why should we be charged the same as those who have not identified the full reference. Am I missing something here? I always thought time cost money. If we provide the reference and the staff can go straight to the correct document surely this is faster.
Regards
Kathb
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It sounds to me like we are not going to be able to view certs online for some years yet, even when the project to digitalise everything is complete the gro can not by law allow us to view these certs online - so i do wonder what the whole point is when everybody is quite capable of searching the way things are - sounds like money down the pan ::)
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I do wish people would compare like with like when comparing the service provided by GRO and that of Scotlandspeolple.
Forever quoting Scotlandspeople's charge of £1.20 and comparing it to £7.00/£9.25 as charged by GRO is giving folks the wrong impression.
For £1.20, S.p. will let you view the image online only. To obtain a certificate (copy of), the charge is £10.
That makes GRO's April price 75p cheaper!
David
It has put a real smile on my face seeing so many people try to spin this as a positive thing.
Lets get real though.
Comparing 'Like for Like' . We are talking about information on historical certificates. Who actually needs or wants a certified copy for a family tree? (a tiny minority). We can get the info for one pound twenty in Scotland, and never need to buy the certificate, and I never hear a single complaint that anyone is unhappy with that set up. That is what we want and should have in England, 'Like for Like'.
It might take more money to set up because of the bigger population in England, true, but once the system itself is in place it would not, realisticly cost any more to run. They have already wasted millions in poorly executed and failed projects to bring us to that point. Is it not quite likely we are paying the cost of these with these price rises?
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I agree with Mary A, having read all the entries on here. Also I do send lots of letters as I think do many of us researching our Family Histories. So I support our posties (and help pay my pension!!) as well.
All hobbies with few exceptions do cost some money & some are far more expensive than others.
I spend my money on Books (reading & reference) Genealogy & music. I do not drink nor do I smoke (just a moment while I straighten my halo).
And while I do think the sudden price hike is steep (maybe the price rise could have been more gradual), the overall price may stop me ordering certs willy nilly, but will not stop me completely.
This is exactly the point though, we already budgeting ourselves in England, now you'll be buying less, I'll be buying less. Where we may each have bought two certs at a time, 28 pounds worth, you will likely buy one, I'll personally buy none. So their revenue drops from 28 pounds to 9.25. If that is the general pattern in the wake of these price rises, they'll make just a third of the money next year, and okay the drop in orders will drop overheads, but will it actually do so by two thirds? A department that is losing over six million a year is now going to see a massive further drop in its revenue.....not good. Rather than put them back in black, I think they'll make huge further losses, and the taxpayer will end up paying for this in any case.
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Richarde. I really do think you should sort your maths out (2x9.25=28 ?) before deciding that there's only a 'tiny minority' wanting the certified copies. Speak for yourself and put things in perspective:
The money it would cost to put all their records online as per GROS would be huge and then compound it with a reduction in prices? Where will they recoup their investment? This doesn't add up either!
David
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Sorry Richarde. Just re-read your statement. You mean four between you . My mistake - but the rest still doesn't add up.
David
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i guess the programme to digitalise would also be for security and a backup system,
how many of us have read about a record that is no longer available because it was destroyed during the war,
or in a fire ie http://www.archives.gov/st-louis/military-personnel/fire-1973.html
of flooded etc etc
so not sure that our records being made digital is a total waste of £££
i can see OLD bmd certificates online being an adavantage, (ie the lma) not sure for security how recent certificates could be made available would you want your latest child/grandchilds birth certificate instantly available,
lol in some schools we are not even allowed to take photos of our OWN family,
as this thread has proved you can please some of the people some of the time....................................
As for those who say people will order less, as has been pointed out a few times Family history is not the only avenue that uses the Gro, the same amount of people will still be born, married and die, i agree that some only want the information from a certifcate/records to move forward, myself i have always bought the certificates and will continue to do so, up until a couple of months ago i thought it had slowed as less people are found, but recently found my grandparents had relatives who were unknown, ie last week i ordered a FEW and paid monday and arrived friday, personally speaking if i had only found them after the price rise i would still order them, and i am sure lots will not be put off getting info' on a vital record for the sake of £2-25.
I wouldn't dream of assuming we are all the same, and each of us goes about things in a different way,
look at the debates about who will and won't pay for the 1911 census or baulk at Ancestry charges,
at the end of the day buying certificates IS a hobby for most and we all make the choice to buy or not, some have never bought at £7 and still have an opinion that the increase is scandalous, so as i say the rises WILL happen so you have to decide what is best for YOU.
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Thank you,Les.
Common sense prevails!
David
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I would just like to point out to Richarde that the records are for England and WALES.
And to Les the reason you are not allowed to take pictures of your children in school has nothing to do with identity theft etc it is to prevent paedophiles from taking/getting hold of pictures and is completely irrelevant to the debate.
I think the long and the short of it is we will all just have to agree to disagree or else we will still be arguing when they next put the price up ::)
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Richarde. I really do think you should sort your maths out (2x9.25=28 ?) before deciding that there's only a 'tiny minority' wanting the certified copies. Speak for yourself and put things in perspective:
The money it would cost to put all their records online as per GROS would be huge and then compound it with a reduction in prices? Where will they recoup their investment? This doesn't add up either!
David
David I think we will just have to agree to fundamently disagree on this.
I am certain whatever the costs of digitising the certificates (barring the totally needless waste already incurred by poor planning and executing of such a system..we are assuming here they can do it properly!) they will easily recoup these costs, and then some, once the system is in place.
This is not just based on my own experience of ploughing at least five times the amount of money north of the border into Scotlands People than I have done into the GRO over the past two years, (In spite of my having at least treble the amount of English ancestors), but also that of several others researching with me who have without exception done like wise.
This makes me fairly certain in myself that the initial outlay would be well recouped, in fairly short time period, and eventually we'd have a system in place we are all far happier with, that would make the GRO profitable rather than loss making, and which would open up this hobby to the widest possible group of people, and make it inclusive, rather than close it down and make it exclusive, a massive backward step in my opinion.
I don't apologise for holding that view, it is certainly not because I am of the 'I want I get brigade' as some of the spiked comments suggested, and until that system IS put in place sadly really none of us can say if my view is right or not.
We are all guessing.
But we will certainly see by April next year, 12 months after the price change, whether their profit has gone up, or, alternatively, as I suspect they have continued and confounded their losses even further, as well as unfairly pricing out the poorer hobby genealogists.
If I'm not right about that I'll quite happily come back and eat humble pie, happy to admit when I'm wrong, but that is my reading of things.
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I would just like to point out to Richarde that the records are for England and WALES.
And to Les the reason you are not allowed to take pictures of your children in school has nothing to do with identity theft etc it is to prevent paedophiles from taking/getting hold of pictures and is completely irrelevant to the debate.
I think the long and the short of it is we will all just have to agree to disagree or else we will still be arguing when they next put the price up ::)
Point accepted RAH. I have in general thought you have made some of the best points in this entire discussion. I apologise for leaving out the Welsh cousins, I have English, Scottish, Irish, and French ancestors..no Welsh yet, no deliberate offence intended!
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I would just like to point out to Richarde that the records are for England and WALES.
And to Les the reason you are not allowed to take pictures of your children in school has nothing to do with identity theft etc it is to prevent paedophiles from taking/getting hold of pictures and is completely irrelevant to the debate.
I think the long and the short of it is we will all just have to agree to disagree or else we will still be arguing when they next put the price up ::)
I did actually type out a bit more after that comment re the photos, but decided it wasn't needed and removed it and forgot that bit lol
Also not sure if it has anything to do with the increases at the GRO and can't see if anyone has mentioned it, but in April royal mail are also increasing postage prices (no before people say not by £2-25)
but would assume the yearly increases in the GRO's in postage charges will rocket, and in the last couple of years there have been massive royal mail increases that have not been passed on to GRO users.
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No probs Richarde, just thought I would point it out.
I think it is perfectly normal that people hold different points of view but I too do not appreciate some people's comments ie common sense prevails - I am not stupid I just hold a different point of view and who are you to say whether or not I find the price increase acceptable or not? Comments of that nature make people feel intimidated, and in my opinion if you have to resort to comments like that It doesn't say much for your argument.
I appreciate your point about Royal Mail and as you said yourself it does not total £2.25 infact including the new price it has risen 11p since 2003, but as said I do understand that 11p per cert issue over 7 years does add up to a bit
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No probs Richarde, just thought I would point it out.
I think it is perfectly normal that people hold different points of view but I too do not appreciate some people's comments ie common sense prevails - I am not stupid I just hold a different point of view and who are you to say whether or not I find the price increase acceptable or not? Comments of that nature make people feel intimidated, and in my opinion if you have to resort to comments like that It doesn't say much for your argument.
I appreciate your point about Royal Mail and as you said yourself it does not total £2.25 infact including the new price it has risen 11p since 2003, but as said I do understand that 11p per cert issue over 7 years does add up to a bit
not wishing to speak for David who made that comment, but i am sure he did not mean it in that way,
if you read Richards comments he to you said "I have in general thought you have made some of the best points in this entire discussion" because obviously your views are similar and fair enough, but again i THINK David was just doing the same ;)
lol why we are on about price increases and don't want to distract from discussion another company "altering" in April and many may not know, BT free evening calls move from 6pm to 7pm, so for those who didn't know and use it than could be an expensive hour ;)
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It sounds to me like we are not going to be able to view certs online for some years yet, even when the project to digitalise everything is complete the gro can not by law allow us to view these certs online - so i do wonder what the whole point is when everybody is quite capable of searching the way things are - sounds like money down the pan ::)
I think the idea is to update the indexes by adding name of spouse to pre-1911 marriage registrations, mother's maiden name to pre-1911 BRs, and ages to pre-1868 DRs. So that the indexes themselves will offer fuller information.
I doubt the certificates themselves were ever intended to be publicly displayed online, but it opens the possibility of emailing customers an image for a fee, which would obviously save a great deal in production and postage costs.
It sounds as though it's mainly only the marriages that are left to be done, and many of these can already be found in parish registers at record offices.
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As Les says, I certainly did not intend to cause offence to anyone with my comment re common sense.
I agree, we are all entitled to our opinions. I must apologise, however, if my opinion that Les was talking common sense has upset you Rah, that wasn't my intention.
It's so easy for things that are said via a screen to be misinterpreted, taken the wrong way, or completely misread - I have been guilty of that very recently. So It may be an idea if we all take a deep breath and count to ten before pressing the 'post' button.
After all, we're all in this hobby together. And that's all it is - a hobby. Not life and death.
David
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Let's all be friends again :-*
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Yeah......it may be safer to debate politics and religion ;D ;D ;D
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The only chance of getting the law changed will come when a competent government sits in Westminster.
Cheers
Guy
Please God let it be sooooooooooooooooooon
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See previous postings, Politics is banned!
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1....2....3....4.........
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See previous postings, Politics is banned!
pity, I've got a lot bottled up! ;D
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There are other websites which specialise in political discussion, such as it is.
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There's a danger here, Roger, of a couple of light-hearted quips, mistakenly being taken too seriously.
David :(
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yep, happened to me a few days ago for mentioning politics and likening some of the T's & C's no-no's to current politicians behaviour.
::)
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Interesting to read in the latest Lost Cousins newsletter that the approximate cost for producing a BMD certificate is probably £2. Accordingly, the existing charges for certificates should already be making a very good profit for the GRO.
If the above estimate is accurate then, since the GRO has made a loss, we are presumably being asked to subsidise other areas.
Nigel
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Interesting to read in the latest Lost Cousins newsletter that the approximate cost for producing a BMD certificate is probably £2. Accordingly, the existing charges for certificates should already be making a very good profit for the GRO.
I had to smile when I saw the FOI info that was a partial source of the calculation and the fact that so many costs were not included.
Andy
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In view of the impending increase I have looked around at sites providing certificates. The most expensive I found charged £20 for a certificate. No doubt there are others with even higher fees.
These "rip off" fees for certificates in my opinion ought to be drawn to the attention of the appropriate Trading Standards Department before the idea that "some mugs will pay £20, why do we stop at £9.25?" takes hold in high places. We would really have a grumble then.
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no doubt those sites will increase their charges too after April 6th?
If they are only procuring the Certificates from the GRO, then I agree that is somewhat exploitive: but if they add value in any way, then like any business they have overheads and a profit margin in mind.
The people using them are the ones who should do their homework.
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Personally I would simply ban them from operating, after locking up their proprietors for profiteering. They are little better than gangsters.
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sorry, but thats not right!
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Remember it's my viewpoint. Justify their operations and you justify exploiters by definition.
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I already stated my view.
No attempt at justification, rather an observation on those who decide to use the service.
Plenty of other examples of premium pricing for services rendered.
You might decide for example that Ancestry were exploiting (or having big overheads) but you can hardly call them gangsters.
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Hadn't realised Ancestry ran a certificate service. If it's a reasonable price then so be it. I would prefer the entire thing be run by the originators i.e. the state; but we are told monopolies are bad for us. Never quite figured that one, monopolies are bad, but high prices can be OK!
Notice no comments about Trading Standards intervention yet!
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I already stated my view.
No attempt at justification, rather an observation on those who decide to use the service.
Plenty of other examples of premium pricing for services rendered.
You might decide for example that Ancestry were exploiting (or having big overheads) but you can hardly call them gangsters.
no but at £19-99 per certificate and another £9-99 for a copy of the same certificate, £30 would certainly buy a lot of food for their horse black bess :P
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I just wonder who actually buys certificates from them at that price?
The mind boggles!
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I would have said it's people with more money than sense.
But, on reflection, it's probably folks who are new to genealogy, new Anc.........y members and people who haven't yet learned of the existance of the GRO.
David
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Thats one of the things that is so great about this site
The wide range of information available and the number of people that are so great at pointing you in the right direction :)
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I won't mention her name, but their is a Rootschatter I've been sort of helping by PM as her query was quite personal, who couldn't seem to get the GRO site to work, so she telephoned them to order the certificates she wanted. She told me she'd ordered 4 at a cost of £34. When I queried that with her, she said that was the price she was quoted over the telephone. So are the prices, even now, more expensive if you ring to order rather than ordering on line? If not, I think she has reason to complain to them and ask for a £6 refund.
Lizzie
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They have probably charged for their time or for a wrong look up as £34 doesn't divide by 4 exactly it would make them £8.50, more than likely she paid £7 each totalling £28 and £6 for two wrong look ups or time
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No, that is correct. The price is only £7 if you order online, otherwise it's £8.50.
I got caught like this, wanted an overseas cert which was impossible to order online as the reference didn't fit the boxes, so the site wouldn't accept it. So I had no choice but to ring them to order it.
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So they currently charge an extra £1.50 for no ref which will rise by 75p when prices go up?
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It wasn't a matter of having no reference, the reference was not in the usual form and therefore couldn't be entered on the online form. (From memory, I think the problem was that it didn't give a specific year but a range, eg 1840-43.)
The current price if one orders by telephone is £8.50. It says it somewhere in their bumf.
Here (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Registeringlifeevents/Familyhistoryandresearch/Birthmarriageanddeathcertificates/DG_175628). Scroll down a bit. Without a reference no it's £11.50.
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Hi
Deleted as it duplicated limk given by Sloe Gin
Andy
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That's what I posted. Ah, you spotted it! ;)
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You can order overseas certs online if you don't know exactly when and the ref covers more than one year, you just enter one year (the first year from the top of the index page) in the date box, when you go to the next page and enter the details, the box there is free-form and will contain far more characters than shown. The staff at the GRO treat overseas orders differently and more manually.
The GRO ordering site is not the most intuitive for overseas events.
Dawn
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I know she had the correct GRO ref.numbers as I provided them for her!! Maybe they just decided to charge her £8.50 because they had to talk to her on the 'phone, or it's possible as she had quite a few references that there was some discussion about which would be useful and which not. I don't think she is unhappy as what she is searching for is very important to her.
Lizzie
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Maybe they just decided to charge her £8.50 because they had to talk to her on the 'phone
As we have established, £8.50 is the correct current price for telephone or postal orders with references, and £11.50 without.
Dawn - thanks for that, they certainly didn't tell me that when I rang to ask for advice, but the person didn't seem very clued-up on overseas (army) registrations.
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I ordered 2 certificates yesterday, one from Lincolnshire by phone as I couldn't fathom their website, and one from Doncaster by post. Both cost or will cost £7. The Lincolnshire one was a pleasure to deal with, no problem at all and a receipt appeared in my in box double quick.
Doncaster was appalling, They do not do certificates either by the web, or by phone, post or personal application only, and then you have to collect next day!When I asked about the internet ordering I was told that to order by the internet I had order from the GRO. When I said that I was ordering from Doncaster as the event had happened there and it was not on the GRO index, the clerk seemed completely baffled.
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Just seen this - the robbing ba*****ds! And reading the first link they seem so proud of themselves too for not putting up prices since 2003....whoop de do! :o
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The Lincolnshire one was a pleasure to deal with, no problem at all and a receipt appeared in my in box double quick.
Oh that's good to know as I have a few Lincolnshire certificates to get.
Lizzie
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But don't deal with Doncaster unless you must!
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Personally, this is just my opinion, I think they are trying to cash in because of genealogy being such a popular hobby. I have just ordered 4 more certs before the price increases.
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My thoughts exactly
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Just seen this - the robbing ba*****ds! And reading the first link they seem so proud of themselves too for not putting up prices since 2003....whoop de do! :o
Are you referring tho the GRO or the commercial site that charges £20. They are the real robbers!
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I shall be obtaining copies of marriage certs from local record offices, but if you only know the district, it is a case of sifting through all parishes until you have it unless it was IGI indexed. But, knowing how awkward our ancestors were they may have wed at the registry office in which there will not be a copy in post 1837 marriage registers.
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Surely all marriages, wherever they took place, will be in the register?
Im sure Stan or someone has the correct info.
Kooky
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Copies of certificates for marriages in parish churches will be found in the local Records Office if the church has deposited its records. Otherwise, they should still be at the church concerned. Obtaining them from this source obviously saves the GRO or the local Registry fee. However, copies of certificates for marriages which took place in non-conformist churches or at the Registrar's Office will not normally be available at a Records Office.
Additionally, although details of all marriages should have been copied to the GRO this did not always happen.
Nigel
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I was in Essex yesterday at Southend and their library has copies of Essex PRs on fiche and I tried to find a marriage which took place in the Rochford district in 1866 and the Halstead district in 1850 but found nothing. I tried the most obvious parishes and to no avail. They may have taken place at a non conformist church or the local registry office.
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Nowadays, when so many marriages are civil ceremonies, held in castles, hotels, theatres, etc, as well as registry offices,the registrar is present, the book is signed and a cert. is issued. The details must be sent to GRO, mustn't they? Has this not always been the case?
Kooky
I have just checked, and the marriage of my older child, not in a church, in 2003 is in the records in Find My Past.
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Nowadays, when so many marriages are civil ceremonies, held in castles, hotels, theatres, etc, as well as registry offices,the registrar is present, the book is signed and a cert. is issued. The details must be sent to GRO, mustn't they? Has this not always been the case?
Kooky
This is what the legislation requires. However, it doesn't always happen so you will occasionally find a record with the local Registry not recorded in the GRO.
Nigel
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Copies of birth certificates and death certificates can not be obtained from record offices. Some births and deaths in local register offices may not appear in the GRO.
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Could you clarify this please? Your first sentence is very misleading.
Are there dates when legislation changed for instance?
I have received several death and birth certs from GRO.
Kooky
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what I meant was all 3 certs are available from GRO but you can obtain marriage certs from the local record office providing it wasn't in a non conformist church but you cannot obtain birth or death certs from local record offices. And you can obtain all 3 from any local register office.
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Thank you!
Kooky
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Kooky, I think you are confusing record offices and register offices.
As Ben says, the church registers (usually available in record offices) have a copy of the same information found on a marriage certificate, because identical forms were completed at the same time for the parish register and for the Registrar. But the church register details for baptisms and burials are not the same as those on birth and death certificates, although they can still be useful.
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I am not confusing record offices and register offices. I thought this thread was about the cost of certs. from GRO.
I have never obtained any post 1837 cert. info from a record office.
I am probably just confused :-[
We will probably have this thread locked anyway soon!
Kooky
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Ben was just drawing attention to the fact that there is a cheaper alternative to obtaining GRO marriage certificates, so it's relevant to the topic.
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I have never obtained any post 1837 cert. info from a record office.
I have obtained photocopies of post-1837 marriage certificates from record offices - but it is necessary in most cases to know the name of the church and the date (or a fair approximation of the date) or they will not supply it. The last time I got a certificate in this way, from Durham Record Office, it cost £3.00
Jennifer
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I have obtained several marriage certs from local record offices rather than pay at the GRO> Often I have just paid 40p a photocopy rather than £7 a cert, and soon over £9 a cert.
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We have now reached 20 pages, and it looks like everything has been said,
so I will lock this topic.
Should there be any new information later, then please start a new topic.
Bob