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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) => Topic started by: Kathc on Sunday 28 February 10 02:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I have a copy of the 1911 census, with my husbands grandfather & grandmother on it plus 3 children, our name is Clews, but on the census his grandfather has spelt it Clewes, it is the correct address in Middlesbrough.
John Clewes age 31 born Barnard Castle ( Durham )
Alice Martha Clewes age 26 born Graves End
Jonathan H Y Clewes age 7 born Knaresborough
Gladys May Clewes age 5 born Middlesbrough
John Norman Oswald Clewes age 3 born Middlesbrough
Can not find Jonathan's birth marriage or death looks like he was born a year before John and Alice married they married in 1905, we know about Glady's and have found John Norman's birth but no Marriage or death.
Can not find the birth of John Born 1880 Barnard Castle, we know his father was William from the marriage cert, and the only Graves End I could find was in Kent, but that doe's not fit, with the info I have for Alice Martha, her maiden name was Kitchen and her fathers name was Marmaduke, I have lots of info on the family of Marmaduke Kitchen, and it seems to be the correct family.
Confused ? me too, any help would be much appreciated. Kathc
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Just to help anyone else who might be wondering about this. Although all the information appears to centre around a similar area, did they marry in the registration district of West Derby, Kath ?
Pels.
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I'm starting to understand what you mean !
When you say you have information about Marmaduke, could you give us a little more information please, I can't find anything on any of them for some unknown reason ?
Have you found either Alice Maud or John on any of the returns ? :-\
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Hello,
I know it's nto what you asked for but for Pels - here is Alice Martha as Martha A in 1901 RG13; Piece: 4575; Folio: 85; Page: 40
It's taken ages to find her- transcribed as Kikhen.
Looked for the family in 1911 indexes - transcribed as Cleeves ::)
Kath,
I was thinking that Jonathan may be Kitchen in birth registers - but can't find him anyway - he is Jonathan Henry in 1911 indexes.
Does John's age fit on the marriage certificate with 1880 and what is his occupation please?
Wonder too why they married in West Derby ???
heywood
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Hello, I am impressed, thanks very much Heywood !! :)
This is the second time today I've had the feeling that I've looked for something before and not found anything then either ? Until Kath returns, here are a few more details about the family :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,218613.0.html
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May as well post them all and then it saves us looking !! :D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,189400.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,180879.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,384179.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,280940.0.html
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Reading the other threads, it looks like I'm more than likely wrong re Alice in 1901 :(
Also Kath, saw that Harry Kitchen birth in Knaresborough and see that it has already been mentioned. I think it would be worth following up.
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Hi Pels & Heywood
Thank you for your replies, you have helped me before Pels.
Yes they married in Bootle, West Derby in 1905, there ages are John 23 and Alice 21.
John Clews died age 78 in 1958 in Middlesbrough.
Alice Martha died age 56 in 1940 in Middlesbrough
I have the census for the Kitchen family, from 1861 to 1901 that (Ambly) from rootschat, sent me some years ago, but on the 1891 census Marmaduke is mis enumerated as Rob't there is a daughter Martha A, I have been told the A is Ann, yet a lady named Trish, her grandmother is the child Henrietta, and she was married from 19 Marl St in Middlesbrough, the same address as John and Alice, now most of the children of Marmaduke Kitchen are born in Hury, Yorkshire, so why has John on the 1911 census put Graves End as his wife's birth place?
A cousin of mine who lives in Birmingham has tried to help, he found on the 1901 census a John Clews age 17, living in Durham with a family named Coskin, he is down as stepson.
Head of house Robert W Coskin age 40, wife Mary Coskin age 40, he found there marriage in 1885 her name was Clews so was she a widow ?
And I was just browsing, on surnames on rootschat, and found a (sarag) who is looking for a George Clews 10 Burns St, Bootle, that is the address on the marriage cert of John and Alice, I have put three post's on the Lancashire board but no luck as this person has no posts so I can not make contact.
Kathc
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Hi Kath,
I had seen that stepson and wondered about him. He is Coskin in 1891. I have looked at 1881 and can see a Mary Clews who fits with her mother, Ann and siblings
1881 RG11; Piece: 4968; Folio: 87; Page: 59
and in 1871 RG10; Piece: 4985; Folio: 22; Page: 2
the family have John Clews as head.
There is a brother (to Mary) George born 1858 but I can't be sure of him in later censuses but there are none in Bootle up to 1901.
It looks that John Clews born c 1883 to Mary would be illegitimate.
In many cases, a father's name is invented so this could be a possibility but that is all at the moment. I hope that you can contact sarag at some point - that may be a big help.
heywood
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haywood
Thank you for that information, it looks like I must wait again to see if sarag, is able to help, when I can get in touch with him or her.
I do appreciate all the help rootschat people give.
Kathc
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Hello again,
Just having a another look- Sarag has George born 10 Burns Street Bootle.
A search of Free BMD, only has a George William Clews b 1904 West Derby which covers Bootle - no others. :-\
I can't see him in 1911.
heywood
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Hi haywood
I wonder if William Clews, the father named on the marriage cert for John & Alice, possibly, was from Bootle originally, and 10 burns St was the family home.
I know there can be big age gaps with siblings, my brother is twenty years older than me, but only this sarag can possibly solve the mystery.
Kathc
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Hi Kath,
it is intriguing. I thought he was more likely to be a son of your John and Alice- born before marriage but as I can't find him in index 1911 and he is not with your family that doesn't look likely. I can't see him in the 1911 index.
heywood
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Hi
Here is a bit of information for you all to work with ....
George William Clews was born at Burns Street, Bootle in September 1904. His parents were George Clews (Dock Labourer) and Sarah Ann Clews nee Digance.
George Clews, aged 21 and Sarah Ann Digance, aged 20 married on 11th November 1895 at St Peter’s Fraserburgh. His parents were William Clews (General Labourer) and Elizabeth Clews nee Evans (Deceased). Her parents were John Thomas Digance (General Labourer) and Sarah Digance nee Simmonds.
William Clews and Elizabeth Evans married in 1873 at Dudley. John Thomas Digance and Sarah Simmonds married in 1864 at East Grinstead.
On the 1881 Census (East Grinstead RG11/1057 Folio 34 Page 62) George Clews, aged 5 born at Dudley, is living at Cemetery Road, East Grinstead with his parents and two sisters.
It would seem that this could be the family of John Clews (who married Alice Martha Kitchen in 1905 at Bootle).
Over to you ... to fill in any other details that can be found.
DS ;)
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This now looks very likely .....
Birth Registration
1881 East Grinstead AMJ quarter 2b 164 - John Clews
DS
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This is a bit of a trip around UK!
I can't find the family as yet in 1891.
1901 has a George Clews b 1875 Dudley, married to a Sarah b 1875 Pennington Lancs. They are living in Sunderland district, Durham and their daughter Elizabeth was born in Swansea, Glamorganshire. If this is the couple who married in Fraserburgh we have been everywhere almost. ::)
1901 RG13; Piece: 4713; Folio: 63; Page: 51
When I first saw them, I thought 'oh good - Durham' but am at a loss as to how East Grinstead becomes Barnard Castle. :-\
In 1881 Sarah Ann Digance is living Sussex too - her father a ganger on the railways so that is perhaps why they move around - both her family and the Clews
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... am at a loss as to how East Grinstead becomes Barnard Castle.
East Grinstead is not that far from Gravesend. Alice Martha Kitchen was born at Hury which is not that far from Barnard Castle. It seems that John might have transposed their respective birth places on the 1911 census entry ? If he spent some of his childhood at Gravesend, he might have thought that was where he was born.
That is definitely the correct family in Sunderland in 1901. Her mother is also living in Sunderland RG13/4719 Folio 146 Page 57
DS
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Yes I noticed that DG. I can't see the Digance family in 1891 so at the moment, it looks as though they and the Clews family were in Scotland perhaps.
However, they don't seem to show on the indexes there either. :-\
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I can't see the Digance family in 1891 .. at the moment
1891 Garstang RG12/3461 Folio 126 Page 15 ?
DS
If the Clews family could be found in 1891, with John included, it would help ...
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That's super- well done :D
Love the place where they are living -Nicky Nook. Obviously some major works going on there so this family, with new stepfather, must follow the work.
Somehow, though there is a move to Scotland by Sarah A - and perhaps the Clews.
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Just realised though that Mother Digance is in Durham in 1901 ::) reverting to her married name.
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Hi Heywood Pels and DS
It looks like you have done it after all this time.
I am a very happy girl ( well old girl ) I can now fill in our family tree with confidence, don't know what I would have done with out you all, I was just about ready to give up hope.
Thank you all again Kathc :)