RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Flintshire => Wales => Flintshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: lhughes on Saturday 27 February 10 15:42 GMT (UK)
-
Am looking for birth/baptism information for a William Winstanley born around 1778 in Holywell. Can anyone help please?
Many thanks, Linzi
-
I can't see a William Winstanley at all but there is a William Wynn baptised 29 July 1778 s/o Edward and Mary or there is a couple of William Williams'
Are you sure it was Holywell? Did he have any siblings?
Sarah
-
Hi Sarah,
Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I do not know his parents or siblings' names. The information I have is from the 1851 Census, his death and his son (James Bryce Winstanley) birth certificate.
He is recorded as a watch/clock maker born in Holywell around 1778. His address is Penyball Street, Holywell. He had three children: Edwin, James and Elizabeth and also a housekeeper living with him called Sarah Price (I actually believe this "house keeper" was his wife as when he died in Holywell in 1853 - the informant was Sarah Winstanley nee Bryce - wife and inmate of Penybal, Holywell)
His children were all born in Holywell according to the census, as was Sarah. I suspect that possibly his birth year is inaccurate as his children were all born around 1845, and his wife Sarah was born around 1823 according to Census - or maybe he was just a lucky man ;)
I am kind of stuck with him now - as the information I have is very little. Any help you can offer is appreciated. Thanks, Linzi
-
His will is online on the national libary of wales website, not read it yet except that he was from holywell and a watchmaker
-
Seems he was just a lucky old man after all ;) Sounds like the real wife was still alive, or she certainly was at the time he wrote the will, and there are another 3 siblings for you to trace now, I don't think he was from Holywell, could be local area or from further away unfortunately place of birth wasn't always accurate especially if it says the place they are living.
Sarah
Ps I wonder what Sarah Bryce saw in a wealthy old man like William?!
-
Hi
His wife was called Margaret and there is a death registered
Dec 1/4 1864 Holywell
-
Hi Sarah,
This is fantastic, thank you very much for your help. The will you have found is most certainly my William Winstanley as he mentions Sarah Bryce, and their three children together. I find it interesting he died only 11 days after writing his will - and on his death certificate that I have it says he died of Dropsy.
Sarah was the informant on his death certificate and not his wife which I also find interesting, and I wonder why when registering William's death Sarah decides to tell the registrar that she is his wife. Is all very exciting ;) I'm sure Sarah was his housekeeper on the 1851 census... very naughty (and lucky) old man indeed!
I'm going to check out the other names mentioned on his will now... thanks again for your help.
Linzi
-
No problems, good luck! I don't know if you use Ancestry but one or two of the children have been saved to other peoples trees (they might be yours and people you know) just thought i would let you know. I have also looked for Sarah Bryce's baptism in my Holywell records with no luck im affraid, you probably need to find her in 1861 to see where she says she is from then.
If I can help again just let me know!
Sarah ;D
-
Just thought you might like to know that I found online somewhere an old equivalant of the yellow pages for Holywell, I have just had a look at it and although there isn't a William Winstanley there was a John Winstanley watch and clock maker of Whitford Street. Winstanley isn't exactly common or it certainly didn't appear to be back then in Holywell and with the fact he had the same occupation i'd say they were related. The directory was from the 1830's if my memory serves me correctly.
Sarah
-
This is amazing, thank you so much Sarah. I am starting to suspect that both William Winstanley and Sarah Bryce may have originally been from Preston. I have found Sarah on the 1861 and 1871 Census, still living in Penybal, one census says she was from Holywell but the other says she was from Preston, Lancashire. She took William's surname when he died and on both census' she is listed as Sarah Winstanley - Widow.
I suspect Preston as I know I have come across one of William's recorded birth details on Ancestry as Preston, Lancashire - but now I can't remember where I saw it - I dismissed it at the time as I thought he was born and bred in Holywell but now I find Sarah saying she was born in Preston maybe there is a link after all. I am trying to find the original place where I saw William's birth recorded as Preston but can't remember it!
Winstanley doesn't appear to be a popular name in Holywell at that time at all and I suspect you may be right in that John was related to William, but I could really do with trying to pinpoint William's place of birth and maybe a baptism record to prove it.
I think dinner will be late tonight as I can't seem to pull myself away from this again now as I had been so stuck on William for such a long time... might have to dig out the takeaway menu.. tut tut!!!
Linzi
-
Hi maidmarion,
Thanks for your help but although I have now found out that my William was indeed married to Margaret (he had children with his much younger housekeeper - shame on him) he died in 1853 as I have the death certificate, so this cannot be my William. But thank you so much for looking.
Linzi
-
NorthWalesBMD shows the death of a William Wood Winstanley in the same year as William Winstanley, i.e. 1853
Also found a Margaret Winstanley, married, age 75, with daughter Caroline, 40, and son John, 36, living in Blackburn in 1851. These all fit in with those name in the will. Puzzlingly, there's another daughter, Anne, 32. She's not mentioned in the will.
Sorry about your dinner, but unless you're a Cordon Bleu chef, this is more interesting.
Tecwyn :)
-
The John Winstanley rather amazingly appears to still be alive and living in Whitford street Holywell with a Thomas Winstanley both watch makers John is 91 and Thomas 55 - in 1841
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 1413; Book: 6; Civil Parish: Holywell; County: Flintshire; Enumeration District: 7A; Folio: 31; Page: 16; Line: 16; GSU roll: 464325.
-
Hi maidmarion,
Thanks for your help but although I have now found out that my William was indeed married to Margaret (he had children with his much younger housekeeper - shame on him) he died in 1853 as I have the death certificate, so this cannot be my William. But thank you so much for looking.
Linzi
Hi
His wife was called Margaret and there is a death registered
Dec 1/4 1864 Holywell
This is the death of a Margaret Winstanley not William ::)
-
Hi Linzi
I have had a look at www.lan-opc.org/indexp.html which is an excellent site for Lancashire which I use to help various friends.
There are many William Winstanleys but one is a marriage between a WW watch maket of this parish (Collegiate,Manchester) and a Sarah Eller on 20 Mar 1815.
Is this just a concidence I wonder?
There are several baptised around 1778.
Peter
-
Re what Tecwyn said it is possible that Anne died between 1851 and Williams death hence no mention in the will. I'd say the best course of action is to find his actual marriage to Margaret and/or baptisms for legit children. Since he made a will it is possible there would be info about him in local papers when he died which might shed more light but bearing in mind he was a naughty old man ;) it might have gone unmentioned. What is dropsy by the way?
Sarah
-
There are a couple (at least) of other interesting points about the will.
Firstly, when he refers to his wife Margaret, he says "if alive", which could suggest that they had lost contact. Against this the fact that the death of his son William Wood Winstanley is recorded in Holywell suggests otherwise.
Secondly, it took four years to prove the will. Was this normal, or does it suggest that there was a dispute, or maybe they couldn't find the first family?
Tecwyn. ???
-
Sarah,
Various definitions of dropsy given here:
http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/dropsy
Tecwyn.
-
Ahh thanks I am always curious about the old causes of death. I just assumed he put if still living because he wasn't expecting to die 11 days later and as it could be years before he did die it was possible the wife would die in the meantime (wishful thinking probably) Perhaps William and Sarah came to Holywell after he got her pregnant and to everyone around them (except enumarator) they were 'husband and wife'
Sarah
-
Everybody, thank you so much for your help on this... I certainly have a lot of work to do!
Regarding Anne (the daughter on the 1851 census not mentioned in William's will) I wonder if she was actually a daughter-in-law of Margaret as I notice on the census there are grandchildren recorded on the census and in 1844 I have found a marriage between William Wood Winstanley and possibly Anne Davies. (I say possibly as there are other names on there)... Just a thought.
Frustratingly, I cannot find Margaret & William's marriage - or record of birth for the legit children but I shall persevere! Thanks for the link to Lancs OPC Peter, I had not come across this site before and have possibly found Sarah Bryce's baptism record on there.
I am puzzled why, like Tecwyn has said it took 4 years for the will to be proven.
As for dropsy, it can be caused by other organ disease but according to what I have read, it usually is explained further on the death certificate. My certificate just says Dropsy which can suggest it is all over - which can apparently be a symptom of blood poisoning, which could be nothing - a lazy registrar maybe... or could be very exciting ;)
Maidmarion, thanks for pointing out it was Margaret's death - I hadn't really considered that! Oversight I guess... was stuck on William so much!! ;)
Linzi
-
OH MY GOD - YOU ARE GOING TO LOVE ME!!!
http://www.clockswatches.com/foreign/showpage.php?em=2432
Hope it helps lol ;D
-
OH MY GOD!! Yes I do love you... how do you find this stuff ?!!!?
-
Guess i am just lucky, seemingly more so with other people's family than my own! Glad to help, I know what it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Happy it was of use, and might explain why i don't have them in my records if they are roman catholics (didn't behave like a catholic did he!)
Sarah
ps you might want to contact the owners of that websit to see if they have found anymore and you can tell them what you know too sounds like they would be interested
-
Re: the 1844 marriage of William Wood Winstanley.
FreeBMD does show Anne Davies as a possibility (1 of 4) but CheshireBMD is clear. He married Ellen Hughes.
Something to confuse you even more (!). NorthWalesBMD shows a marriage at Gresford in 1842, of an Edward Wood Winstanley. Possibly related, but I don't suppose you want to go there just yet.
Tecwyn.
-
Hi there
I am new to RootsChat and have just registered. I often google the name Winstanley to see if any new information appears and this link popped up.
I have been researching my family of Winstanley for the past year now, have been up to Holywell last year and have dug up as much as I can but have quite a few holes in the tree.
William was indeed living with Sarah Bryce and their 3 children and was not married (because he was catholic that would have been difficult) What is even more interesting is the background of the rest of the family. John, his father, was a clockmaker and had property and land. His 7 sons and 1 daughter were due to inherit but he entrusted the management of his estate to the local priest (a Rev Briggs) who handled things badly and left the siblings quarrelling amongst themselves. There is a letter from Charles (one of the sons) at Hawarden register office, Flintshire to Briggs who has now risen in status to a Bishop pleading for the matter to be resolved as Edward is now dead in New York America and William is "at deaths door through starvation" Son Thomas was in the County jail in Flint for debt. Another 2 members of the family have also died.
So all in all a juicy piece of family history don't you think! Regards Pam
-
Welcome to rootschat Pam, If you have any C of E ancestors I have transcript copies of some of the flintshire parish records (list of these in look ups offers) so if you want anything looked up and I can help, I would be happy to do so.
Sarah ;D
-
Many thanks Sarah
I had no idea that there were so many links to Wales and I shall spend some pleasant hours trawling through them to see if there is any information on Holywell that could be useful.
I will certainly ask for your help if I have any c of e Winstanley's in Flintshire, but so far they seem to be mostly catholic,(unless you know differently) which makes searching for them quite difficult. The family was very large with many clock and watchmakers and living in Holywell, Mold, Flint and Wrexham and later moving into Lancashire
My biggest problem is that there is a large gravestone in St James Church, next to the site of St Winifred's Well in Holywell for John Winstanley born 1746 (I do not know where he was born, but not in Flintshire) and died in 1841 aged 95yrs in Holywell. He is my g.g.g.g.g.grandfather and this gravestone states quite clearly that John was :
"grandson of Clement Winstanley esq. of Winstanley, in the County of Lancaster and Catherine, daughter of Sir F Willoughby, Lord Middleton of Parkam and Wollaston Hall in Nottinghamshire and of Middleton in the county of Warrick."
However there is no link that I can find for him to the (much documented) Clement Winstanley in Braunston, as Clement only had one son that is recorded (James, his heir) and this James did not have a son called John!
Any help would be much appreciated!
Kind regards
Pam
-
I would assume then Pam that perhaps John came from an illegitimate child of Clement, or a daughter who discounted her husbands surname and would rather her children carry her maiden name so that they would get further in life? As you say the Winstanleys were Catholic (odd he should be buried in St James' but was that neccessary with persurcution etc?) In my Holywell records I have as follows :-
Thomas s/o Edward and Sarah Baptised 6/11/1787
Thomas Barns bastard son of ? Winstanley and Jane Barns baptised 17/5/1789
Elinor Wynstanley d/o Edward and Sarah baptised 12/2/1791
Edward Winstanley s/o Edward and Sarah baptised 23/7/1796
Mary Winstanley (otp) married Edward Owens (Halkyn) 20/11/1802 witnessed by Thomas ? and Mary Jones
John Winstanley age 54 widow (otp) s/o Thomas & Elizabeth married by licence Mary Ann Hartshorn age 40 (otp) d/o Ralph and Mary witnessed by John Cadman and Elizabeth Daeks
Possibly more to follow...
-
More...(date of John marriage was 17/6/1804)
Edward W (27) widow s/o Thomas & Martha married spinster Sarah Rydderch (23) d/o John & Elinor married on 21/7/1787 witnessed by David Jones and Hester Barker (by banns)
A John and Esther Winstanley were witnesses to the marriage of Richard Henesey of Allstone Staffs (25) and Hannah Wood otp (29) on 21/10/1787
John W (23) S/O John & Esther married by licence on 2/2/1797 Julia Ann Roddes (24) d/o John & Mary witnessed by Charles Winstanley and Mary Ball
And that appears to be it for the records I hold of Holywell
Sarah ;D
-
Again, many thanks Sarah,
The record about John and Esther witnessing the marriage of Richard Henesey of Allstone Staffs and Hannah Wood on 21/10/1787, is interesting if Esther is indeed Hester Wood of Allstonefield Derbyshire. Would they be one and the same place do you think?
Regards Pam
-
Sorry you have confused me - doesn't take much! ??? Hannah Wood of Holywell married Richard Henessey of Allstone Staffs (might well be same place you would have to look into counties at the time of marriage), who is Hester Wood???
I thought the John marriage 1804 could be yours but second marriage dates seemed to fit but you might already have this info?
-
Hello again Sarah
It seems that one of my messages has got lost in the ether.
I was explaining that I think I may have found a record for John's first marriage to a Hester Wood (signs her name Esther) from Alstonefield I presume in Derbyshire. The witnesses are both Wood Presumably her parents, but it does state that John is from Ashbourne which is a town nearby. So if he and Esther were witnesses to a marriage to a Hannah Wood in Holywell, then this could be a relative but I could find no further Winstanley's in the surrounding area near Alstonefield. Also I have no proof of this as they are just parish records and again no links to Clement Winstanley!
The marriage to Mary Ann Hartshorn is his second wife I think as the dates fit, he has a further 3 children after Esther's death and the first child was christened Mary Ann.
I think that was all I wrote, hope it explains the second message, sorry to confuse!!
Regards
Pam
-
It makes sense now! So Hannah Wood could be Esthers little sister or niece. And if that is John's second marriage you have who his parents were (if you didn't have it before) I am sure those others must fit in somewhere!
Sarah ;D
-
Since you think it might be relatives here is the record of Hannah Woods marriage ss i view it in my records 21/10/1787
Parties Parish st. Bn/lic Witnesses
Richd HENESEY 25 Alstone B L John Winstanley
s/o Robert & Ann Staffs
Hannah WOOD X 29 otp Sp Esther Winstanley
d/o Henry & Esther
Sarah
-
Once again, thank you Sarah, sorry for the delay in replying, I've been entrenched in research about the persecution of Catholics and Quakers in Derbyshire and Staffordshire! There were quite a number of Winstanley's involved.
Yes, I think that that record does belong to John and Esther from Holywell.
If you come across anymore information I would be very grateful.
Kind regards
Pam
-
It is amazing to think that we can view a marriage record from 1787, quite assounding really when you think about it. Am glad to have been of help.
Sarah ;D
-
My great-great-great-grandfather, Thomas Winstanley, born around 1814 in St Helens in Lancashire, was also a watchmaker. It sounds as though he may be part of this timeless (sorry for the appalling pun) extended family and it'd be great if we could draw some of these ties closer together. Thomas appears in the 1851 and 1861 censuses as living with his wife Margaret (nee Sturdy) whom he married in 1834. So far as I know, they had nine children and their son, John, is my great-great-grandfather.
Am I reading it right that there is still an old man called Winstanley, once a jeweller living in Holywell?
-
Hi there
Interesting to hear about your Thomas Winstanley.
My family also come from St Helens, although originally from Holywell, in Flintshire.
My Great grandfather was Thomas Digby Willoughby Winstanley, born in Dec 1844 in Holywell and moved to St Helens before 1871 when he married his wife, Mary Jane Hughes who was also from Holywell.
Thomas and Mary Jane were living with Mary Jane's father and mother in St Helens when the 1871 census was taken.
Thomas was one of 7 children of John Wood Winstanley b1819, a Watchmaker from Holywell and Ann Roberts of Halkin Flintshire.
I know that their sons, John Clement and Thomas D.W. came over to St helens but did not carry on with the watchmaking trade; Thomas was a copper roller and John Clement a labourer.
However their grandfather, another Thomas Winstanley, also a clockmaker, had several children who were watch or clockmakers, as did his father, John before him, so it is possible that one of these children came over to St Helens and are related to your Thomas (obviously a common name in this Winstanley branch)
Do you know who Thomas Winstanley's father was?
Pam
-
Pam
Nice to hear from you.
Unfortunately I have not yet been able to find out the name of Thomas's father. He and Margaret Sturdy were married on 23rd February 1834 at Saint Nicholas, Liverpool. I got this information from FamilySearch. Obviously, that information was gleaned from somewhere, most probably parish records so I'm going to have to see if I can get more details by seeing if such a record is still available.
Thanks again for your information.
John
-
Hi
I don't pretend that I have followed this thread very carefully but feel perhaps a further look at the website I mentioned 27 Feb 2010 might help. This site is always being added to and there are possible baptisms for John to consider.
Sorry if you have already done this
Peter
-
hi found a marrage between a Mary Emma Winstanley12 April 1866 st Augustine everton lances and Charles blackburn milk dealer of everton grooms father George blackburn brides father thomas winstanley watch maker witness thomas winstanley and Elizabeth campbell married banns by Octavius Nicholson
nibbs
-
Thanks, Peter and Nibbs.
I'll check out that site, Peter.
Nibbs, I have a fourth cousin, Robbie, in Shetland (ie our common ancestors are Thomas Winstanley and Margaret Sturdy) and the couple you mention are his great-great-grandparents. (Charles Blackburn was born in Southwark on 22 Mar 1843.)
Robbie provided me with this additional information on their children, all born in Liverpool -
George J Blackburn, born 23 July 1867, married Harriet Garner
Amelia Blackburn, born 26 Sept 1870, married James Tolond
Charles Blackburn, born 23 March 1869, married Margaret Ann Worthington, 26 December 1888
Frances B Blackburn, born 10 June 1872
Thomas Blackburn, born 19 December 1873
James Blackburn, born 25 February 1876
Joseph Blackburn, born 18 Nov 1878, married Edith Brown
He also sent me some family pictures from that time but I'm blowed if I can work out how to post them!!