RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: gallipolianzac on Friday 26 February 10 17:59 GMT (UK)
-
A long shot this one but you never know...... Charles Harding was a private soldier in the 2 Battalion Kings Own Scottish borderers. He was badly injured at Ypres in 1914 and eventually invalided out of the army. He pops up again in June 1919 living at 235 Kilburn Road, Paddington - information from a letter head - married but wife's name unknown but has a 9 month old son called Willie. I'm stumped but somewhere there is info about this man. Any help appreciated.
Jerry
-
Charles J Harding married Margaret Alway Dec qtr 1917 Paddington ref. 1a 191
William C Harding birth reg Sept qtr 1918 Willesden ref. 3a 448 mother's maiden name Alway.
Looks a good bet?
There is a Margaret Alway born 1893 in 1911 census St.Pancras?
Jennifer
-
if you get that marr cert you will be able to find his fathers name and occ and also charles age and occ
with that info you should with a bit of luck be able to find him on earlier censuses
-
Thanks folks that fabulous - incidently Jennifer how did you find that info? I used Ancestory and got so many hits for Charles Harding I was swamped - !!
Jerry
-
I looked for a birth for William around that date and area, this gave mothers maiden name, then I looked for a Harding & Alway marriage.
Jennifer
-
You could try posting his details on the WW1 Army forum on here.
Jennifer
-
If this thread is still active - Charles Harding is my Great Grandfather and William - Bill, is my Grandfather who died in 2003.
We know very little about Charles.
Margaret Alway, daughter of Hugh Hamilton Alway and Mary Maria Alway, married twice, possibly three times. First she had a child to an unknown person, the child takes her name - Percy Hamilton Alway (1911 - 2001) so we are unsure if he was born out of wedlock or in marriage to an unknown person, secondly to Charles J Harding, with whom she had William Charles Harding, and finally to Edward E Azore - who appears to be from the Caribbean, presumably from a former slave colony, who worked in the music halls as a musician, but was later killed in 1942 in the merchant navy working as a Greaser. He and Margaret had another child - Roy Edward John Azore who is buried in Bari War Grave in Italy. However the understanding in our family is that Roy fell in love - but having mixed heritage, despite being white, took his own life because of the worry and having to deal with the racism of possibly having a mixed race or black child. Roy's death caused a long time breach between Percy and Bill. Bill's life had quite a bit of tragedy, his eldest son also committed suicide and his younger son died of a brain tumor at 30. This particular Harding lineage ended when Bill's only surviving child - my Mother, married my Father, however Percy also had children who are still alive although I am not personally in contact with them.
The presumption for Margaret's remarrying is that both her first husband/lover and Charles died/were killed. The family were at one point living in pretty much squalor in a couple of rooms in Camden Town. Margaret succumbed to mental illness towards the end of the war and was unable to recognise her sons.
I've attached the only photo we have of Charles. We know nothing whatsoever of the rest of his family, or of his war experience until I found this thread. I'd be fascinated to know your connection to Charles and any information you may have. Any and all information would be amazing.
Pete
-
Hi Pete
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
According to his profile Jerry, who started the topic, hasn't posted recently but was online here a few weeks back.
As long as his email address hasn't changed he should recieve email notifications that we have posted and hopefully come back soon.
Dawn
-
Thanks Dawn.
It's only by chance I recently started back into genealogy, and Charles has been a completely stubborn dead end since 2008 when I first started my tree. So it's wonderful to suddenly have his name turn up on google.
I've spoken to my Mum tonight who reminded me of a few things I'd forgotten about Charles - that he was a Piper and Pianist - and his family cut off Margaret Alway after she married Edward Azore, which is why we know absolutely nothing about his family.
We're hoping Jerry returns to the thread :) really excited to make contact.
I've uploaded some more photos. The first is of Billy, my Grandad and Charles' son, and then his two half brothers - Percy and Roy (With the Unexploded Bomb sign) all during the war.
-
Fingers crossed that you can make contact with each other ;D
-
Pete
Well what a turn up for the books! I came across Charles Harding when researching a book I wrote called 'Retreat and Rearguard 1914 which was published by Pen and Sword Books in 2011. He was mentioned by Lieutenant Jim Pennyman in his diary account of the battle of Le Cateau and I have referred to Charles' bravery in the book. He was discharged in 1915 and kept in touch with Jim Pennyman up until his death. You should be able to get a copy of the book on Amazon.
Jerry Murland
-
I have just found the reference to Charles Harding's letter;
Correspondence U.PEN/7/122 June, 1919
These documents are held at Teesside Archives
Contents:
Letter from Private Harding of the King's Own Scottish Borderers to J.B. Pennyman.
[Harding had been in Pennyman's machine gun section in 1914].
It also appears he might have had a brother:
HARDING, ARTHUR WILLIAM
Charles' Brother
Initials:
A W
Nationality:
United Kingdom
Rank:
Private
Regiment/Service:
Middlesex Regiment
Unit Text:
Depot
Age:
19
Date of Death:
15/11/1918
Service No:
G/54603
Additional information:
Son of James and Elizabeth Emily Harding, of Bethnal Green, London.
Casualty Type:
Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:
XIII. A. 9A.
Cemetery:
BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY
This is Charles details from the CWGC website:
HARDING, CHARLES JAMES
Initials:
C J
Nationality:
United Kingdom
Rank:
Private
Regiment/Service:
King's Own Scottish Borderers
Unit Text:
2nd Bn.
Age:
28
Date of Death:
23/03/1920
Service No:
10656
Additional information:
Order of St. George 4th Class (Russia). Son of James Harding, of 4, Sidney St., Bethnal Green, London, and the late Elizabeth Emily Harding. Wounded at Ypres, Nov., 1914.
Casualty Type:
Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference:
S.P. 14504.
PADDINGTON CEMETERY
Country:
United Kingdom
Locality:
Middlesex
Charles' death details:
England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
about Charles J Harding
Name:
Charles J Harding
Death Registration Month/Year:
1920
Age at death (estimated):
28
Registration district:
Paddington
Inferred County:
London
Volume:
1a
Page:
26
Arthur's details:
UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
about Arthur William Harding
Name: Arthur William Harding
Birth Place: Bethnal Green, Middlesex
Residence: Whitehall
Death Date: 15 Nov 1918
Rank: Private
Regiment: Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment)
Battalion: 23rd Battalion.
Number: G/54603
Type of Casualty: Died of wounds
Theatre of War: Brough - Sic
You will find Charles' Medal Index Card on Ancestory
Hope this helps
jerry Murland
-
Hello Jerry,
I am Charles granddaughter, Pete's mum and wanted to thank you for posting all this information and for your book which Pete and I have downloaded and are reading. This is so wonderful to learn about the man who we were all just dimly aware of. My father had just one memory of sitting on his fathers lap in a bathchair. My grandmother kept his medals proudly on display under a glass dome on the sideboard but these were stolen during WWII after she died. My father went to clear the rooms out and found they were gone. Thank goodness they left his portrait. My grandmother was refused a war widows pension after he died. There are two explanations of this. One was that he was apparently discharged A1 fit which does not square with the injury you refer to and/or that the pension was refused because she would not part with his piano. Charles was a piper and apparently played the piano very well too.
We understood that he had been gassed and that this was why he was discharged and later died.
It is strange that Charles mentions a baby daughter in his last letter. We understood that my grandmother was carrying twins and lost them we presumed with the shock of his death but maybe one survived for a while. However the source of any information was secondhand through her younger sister Alice who was a great gossip and source of spurious information. How close she and my grandmother were at the time of Charlie's death is anybody's guess. I only saw her a handful of times and never knew her well enough to ask questions.
Thank you again. Ros
-
Hi Ros
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
I'm sure Jerry will be back again soon.
Dawn
-
It also appears he might have had a brother: HARDING, ARTHUR WILLIAM
Here are the links to the deaths on CWGC details posted by gallipolianzac
Charles James Harding
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wte/
Here’s a photo of Charles’ grave stone
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wtf/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wti/
and brother Arthur William
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wtl/
photo of Arthur's grave stone
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wth/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0wtj/
both their medal cards can be viewed on Anc*y
Charles Harding
Regiment or Corps: Kings Own Scottish Borderers
Regimental Number: 10858
Arthur W Harding
Regiment or Corps: Middlesex Regiment
Regimental Number: G/54603
for info.
Here they both are with their parents on 1901 census
RG13; Piece: 288; Folio: 128; Page: 21
James Harding 36 Stepney occ Silk Weaver
Elizabeth E 36 St. Luke
Charles J 9 Dalston London
Elizabeth A 6 Stepney
Arthur W 2
James 4mths
Charles James Harding
Bapt 6 Dec 1891 St Bartholomew Bethnal Green
Parents James Harding occ Coachman & Elizabeth abode 107 Eleanor Rd Dalston
marriage
4 Jan 1891 St Philips Stepney
James Harding age 27 Carman of 8 Gloucester Place f Charles Carman
Elizabeth Emily Coleman age 25 of 8 Gloucester Court f William Carman
Witnesses Thomas Edward Harding & Phoebe Harding
How terribly sad that Charles medals were stolen :(
There is a public tree on Ancestry owner Harding
Added pictures 3 Aug 2013
Picture of Russian Order of St George 4th Class
Map showing Battle of Le Cateau
Names James & Elizabeth’s children as
Charles James 1890 – 1920
Thomas E 1890
Elizabeth Ann (Daisy) 1894 – 1956
William 1896 – 1900
Arthur William 1899 – 1918
James John 1900 – 1972 = Isabella Maud Winwood 1897 – 1980 (6 children all deceased all named)
Sarah Ann Phoebe 1902 – 1985
Alice Mary 1904 = F Pike (2 children not named)
Fred?
-
Hi Jerry, thank you so much for all the information you posted here. I found Retreat and Rearguard so moving. Thanks to your research you have brought my grandfather back to life and taught us so much we never knew. I have little time or energy for family research but thanks to this maybe we are a little closer to possibly finding some living relatives of Charles' brothers or sisters.