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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: Shalena on Friday 26 February 10 17:18 GMT (UK)
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If anyone can unravel this puzzle we would be grateful. We had got so far, and then left it as we were following other lines...then JohnP came up with further information and suggested that I leave a post here to see if anyone can tie up the loose ends...thank-you John, your help was much appreciated.
On the 1851 census for Beds; we have a John Jenks, widower, aged 57 residing, and working at, The Red Lion Public House, High Street, Beds. He has with him his 4 daughters. Augusta A Jenks, 26, who we know about as she is the line linked with us; Alicia Jenks, born 1834; Lavinia Jenks, born 1840 and Rosina Emily Jenks, born 1841. There is also a woman named Susan Jenks, aged 34, listed as a housemaid... on the Index she is Susan Jenks - but - the image has her as a Susan Page, born Cadon (?), Beds;!
Going forward to the 1861 census, we find John Jenks is still listed as Innkeeper at The Red Lion, but his age is now 62 (10 yrs after being 57???), and Susan F Jenks is now listed as being, 44, and the Innkeeper's wife, born Middlesex St James ?
We are assuming that John moved to Bedfordshire after a first (?) wife died, as we have him located in London during the years previous, and his first daughter is too old for Susan to have given birth to her...the second maybe...the later girls a possibility. From IGI, John found the marriage of a John Jenks to a Susan Frances Probutt at St Paul's, Bedford on 31st January, 1859. Sounds good, but now that means there are 3 different versions of Susan's name...or does John just like women with the name Susan? ::)
If somebody could unravel all this, and hopefully answer the questions:-
Are Susan F Jenks, Susan F Page and Susan F Probutt one and the same person?
Was she the mother of any of John's children?
Is there any information regarding the years after 1861 about John, Susan or the younger girls?
We would love to hear about it.
Here's hoping!
Shalena
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Rosina Emily Jenks, 28, of 53 Kentish Town Road married clerk John Flynn, 39, of 58 Hercules Buildings Lambeth, on 3 June 1871 at Holy Trinity Haverstock Hill.
Fathers shown as John Jenks, and William Flynn, gentlemen.
Witnesses John Jenks and Alice Sarah Jackson
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FreeBMD has a marriage of John Jenks in the March quarter 1859 where his wife is either Sarah Page or Susan Frances Probutt. However the IGI shows it was Susan Probutt that he married. As the birthplaces of Susan Page and Susan Probutt are so different I think they are two different people and it's just coincidence. I don't understand why you think that a servant in his inn should be the mother of some of his children. I think this is an occasion when you take the facts as they stand.
You say you have four children in 1851. My copy of the census only shows Augusta and Rosina living with John. Where have you found Lavinia and Alicia, and where did their birth years come from?
Baptisms
George Stillwell Jenks son of John & Sarah of Great Smith St, tallow chander at St John the Evangelist Smith Sq. bap 17 Aug 1823, born 29 Aug 1821 (he married Eliza Miller on 1 Oct 1848 at Kennington, his father named as John Jenks, licenced victualler)
26 Nov 1826 St Marys Lambeth Augusta Amelia Jenks dau of John and Sarah, of Lambeth Walk, tallow chandler (She married Thomas Priestley on 19 May 1851 at Newington Surrey, her residence St Paul Bedfordshire, father John Jenks, hotel keeper)
6 Jan 1826 Sarah Maria Jenks dau of John & Sarah, of Doughty Place, tallow chandler. St Marys Lambeth
There are others but I'm not sure it's them as John is described as gentleman
David
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I don't think there is a problem.
Susan Page was a servant - had Ancestry indexed her correctly you wouldn't even being considering her as a Jenks. So forget her.
That just leaves Susan F. Probutt who married John Jenks and became Susan F. Jenks. Again, no problem.
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Ah.. I see... Alicia and Lavinia are with him in the 1841 census in St Pancras/Somers Town.
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1841 census
Seymour St, St Pancras
John Jenks 40 Straw hat manufacturer Not b in Middx
Sarah Jenks 40 Not b in Middx
Augusta Jenks 15 b in Middx
Alicia Jenks 7 b in Middx
Lavinia Jenks 4 mths
David
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I reckon "Lavinia" on the 1841 is a mistranscribed Rosina.
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I think it's an enumeration error, Shaun. Rosina Emily's birth was registered in the March quarter 1841. I think the enumerator skipped/missed a line - I reckon it should read
Lavinia 3 or 4
Rosina 4 mths
Italics are the bits missed by the enumerator
There are baptisms on 9 July 1837 at St Mary Islington of Jane Lavinia Jenks, dau of John & Sarah, gentleman of Goswell Rd, born 11 March 1837, and of Eliza Adelaide Jenks born 7 July 1833. Also baptised same church and other details on 15 may 1831 of Emma Silenia Jenks, born 15 Apr 1831
Freebmd has the death of a Sarah Jenks at St Pancras in the March quarter 1847
David
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StevenG,
Thank-you for your input. No problem now you have shown Susan Page can be discounted!
S
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Jane Lavinia Jenks died 1839 in Clerkenwell
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Also I think "Alicia" on the 1841 census is Eliza Adelaide (she marries in Bedford in 1854 ...not sure who to at the moment).
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Well that certainly counts Lavinia out, and sinks my theory about the enumerator skipping a line! Would also tend to explain why I can't find her in any subsequent census or a marriage
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Eliza married John Hill at St Paul's Bedford, 10 July 1854
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Hello Shalena, See I told you it'd get sorted here..
On 1851 there's a Susan Probutt age 32 born Middlesex, married, lodging in St Marylebone, London . I wonder if this is her. I need to check the 1859 St Pauls marriage to see if it says she's a widower.
cheers John
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'Evening John,
Your info; on Susan looks promising...and the other guy's have been great sorting it all out. :)
I have posted a reply to them...hope it hasn't got 'lost' as not seen it up yet.
Popping off for a while, but I'll return later.
S
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Hello .....
Is this Susan in 1841 ...?
John Probutt 38 butcher not born in county
Susan Probutt 27 born Middlesex
HO107/734 F 19 P30
St George Hanover Sq Shepherd Court.
Tazzie
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Sorry bedfordshireboy and Shaun...the reply that I thought I had posted to you seems to have been wiped...probably by something I did my end! Let's see if I can recall what I said. First off...thank-you both for all the time and trouble you have put into this. All the new information is very welcome and answers a lot of questions.
Shaun - I did know about Rosina's marriage to John Flynn, but not the other details. Thanks for all that. If what we found previously was correct, they had a daughter, Augusta Evelyn Flynn, born 1873, Kensington, London. We never took it further as we had so much else to look into at the time, and she wasn't a direct line.
bedfordshireboy - thank-you too, for all you have provided. We only wondered if Susan 'could have' been the mother of any of John's children a: because we didn't know that there were two Susan's involved, and John did end up marrying a Susan; b: because we have already uncovered a long past relative who had fathered several children by a household maid. It was confirmed by his will in which he left details of his bequest to them and the mother.
Going by the earlier post about Rosina's marriage...her father, John Jenks, was calling himself a 'gentleman' then too.
Thank-you again for all you have done both of you...and I hope you did not mind me including you both on the same post.
Regards, Shalena
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Another shorter update......
tazzie - Thanks for passing on your information too.
'Many hands' have certainly made light(er!), work of some things that had puzzled us at the time we first found out about this line.
One more point that may be of interest to those that have looked into this...we believe that John Jenks was born c 1794 in Potterspury, Northamptonshire. Presumably, he then made his way to London from there. But that can wait for another day to be looked into.
Thanks everyone!
Shalena
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Sorry to be a nuisance...but having just noted down these new dates I can see a problem with John.
We thought we had him born in Northamptonshire c 1794.
On the 1841 London census he comes up as being aged 40yrs...not the 47 he should be if 1794 was right.
Then on the 1851 Bedford census he comes up as being 57yrs...correct for the 1749 birthdate., but not for the 1841 census
Finally, on the 1861 Bedford census he is now aged 62yrs...not the 67 he would have been if 1794 was correct.
Would it be errors in record taking or badly written records?
Shalena
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Just a possibility for John's marriage to Sarah: a John Jenks married a Sarah Wright at Hanwell 4 September 1825.
And looking at Jenks in Potterspury: a John Jenks of Potterspury, widower, married Elizabeth Maynard of Towcester ( a minor, but with the consent of her father) at Towcester on 9 April 1787.
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Shalena
Ages of adults in the 1841 census were rounded down to the nearest 5 year interval - so you would expect someone born around 1794 to show up as aged 45.
Then for all the censuses you have the problems of people understating their age as they get older, and the fact that we are looking at manuscript pages transcribed from other manuscript returns by an enumerator. Ages in the censuses are most unreliable.
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How interesting Shaun,
I didn't know about the age rounding down. And the marriage you have found regarding Potterspury could be John's father, John.
If the 1825 Hanwell marriage is correct, then it seems they had George Stillwell Jenks (b 1821), before marrying...and Augusta the year after.
S
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From Historical Directories online, in the 1854 Post Office Directory of Bedford
Jenks John, Red Lion tavern & commercial tavern, agent to the Great Northern railway comp. & excise office, High Street
He is also listed in the 'Carriers to' section of the Trade index
John Jenks, booking office for passengers & goods, to & from all parts on Great Northern & London & Nort Western railways, meeting same at all stations by coach & flys; office, Red Lion Hotel High Street
Also take a look at this .....
http://www.bedfordshire.gov.uk/CommunityAndLiving/ArchivesAndRecordOffice/CommunityArchives/Bedford/TheLittenTreePublicHouseBedford.aspx
He gets a mention....
cheeeeerrs John (oh dear that's cocked up the page format)
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What about the Bedford St Paul's Marriages....
25 Oct 1819 John Jenks to Sarah George
We already seen the death index of a Sarah Jenks at St Pancras in March quarter 1847
Then on 6 Dec 1847 John Jenks to Mary Tebbs
There is a Death index of Mary Jenks in Jan-Mar 1851 in Bedford RD
** could be, no it's most likely, The Beds FHS has just produced a transcription the MIs of St Paul's Bedford, I've just checked it out ...
In memory of Mary wife of John Jenks who departed this life on March 15th 1851 aged 59 years ...............
& in the next plot;
Sacred to the memory of William Tebbs late landlord of the Red Lion commercial inn in this town who died June 23rd 1845 aged 59......
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.... continuing on...
from the list of licencees of the Red Lion (from the Beds Archives article)
William Tebbs, senior 1841 - 1844
Mary Tebbs, 1844 - 1847
William Jenks, 1849
John Jenks, 1850 - 1854
So did John marry Mary Tebbs so he could be the landlord ...?
& who is William Jenks
John
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'Morning John,
You're an early bird! You beat me to it...I had already found the link you noted down regarding John Jenks time at the Red Lion...and the court case! But I really appreciate your getting into the digging. Thank-you. I also have pictures of the Hotel over the years, and the church he married in, so they will be good for our 'Family Book'.
During my wanderings I also found a copy of an Old Bailey Proceedings which mentioned that there was a man called John Jenks who was a 'Parish Officer', taking a particular defendant to the watch house on arresting her, and recounting his part during the trial for 'feloniously stealing'. Thought it may be 'our guy', but looking at the dates he would only have been 19 years old at the time, and I am not sure if that would have been right. Shame, it was a good tale, the girl he arrested was only 14 years old, and was sentenced to death...the jury recommended mercy though, due to her youth.
Off to do breakfast and prepare for the dreaded trawl of the shoe shops for a son who has managed to wreck his school shoes in a couple of months. And they say girls are the fussy ones!
S
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Couldn't resist popping back quickly...
Saw your latest posts and it seems that our John Jenks is a bit of a mover and shaker, to say the least! All these marriages...and how convienient that Mary is a Landlady of a going concern! ::)
I also wondered about William, and where he fit in, especially as he was only there for such a short while. Think he told his 'relative' John about the position and John came running with a ring in one hand and a wallet in the other? :D This may also be the way he managed to get enough money together to call himself "A Gentleman" when it suited him. He must have something about him to rise from tallow chandler, to straw hat maker, to Landlord. Whether good or bad remains to be seen.
S
S
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So I am assuming Mary Tebbs, was the widow of William Tebbs, and by going by their ages at death; William born 1786 & Mary born 1792; the only couple on the 1841 census that colud fit are farmer & wife of Haw End farm, Houghton Conquest, both not born in Beds.
HO107/Piece 6; Book 11 Folio 5 Page 5
Also noted there was a William Tebbs age 25 & (possible wife) Eliza Tebbs age 20, Innkeeper in St Loyes Bedford. At the other Red Lion pub perhaps
HO107/Piece 10; Book 11 Folio 4 Page 7
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All John Jenks' assets assigned to creditors in 1861 (apart from necessary clothing and bedding):
http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/22503/pages/1725
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Eliza Tebbs was at the George in the 1860's
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0845/
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0846/
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All John Jenks' assets assigned to creditors in 1861 (apart from necessary clothing and bedding):
That's interesting Shaun - so JJ was in debt to William Thody, butcher - who had a shop 2 doors up at 51 High Street; & Thomas Gray, winemerchant of St Marys (as per 1861).
So what happened to him next; is there a death or entry on 1871.
From the Melville's directory of 1867 (link supplied by ShaunG)
John Jenks, lime burner, at 7 Union Street
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From BLARS website there is a recognizance entry for Midsummer Sessions of 11th July 1820 where John Jenks, shopkeeper of St Pauls is to prosecute Isaac King & others...
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Morning all...
Should he still be married to Susan at this point I think I can see them?
Tazzie
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? ... at what point (date wise), Tazzie
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Hi .....
Sorry ..... keyboard locked on me... ::)
John Jenks a poss for 1871....
Poplar John Jukes hd m 76 no occ Northampton
Susan wi m 54 London
Elizabeth Joseph niece u 22? dressmaker London
at RG10/576 F 31 P2
There is also this
Death Poplar John Jenks b 1794 died 1873.
Did he leave Bedford behind him...?
Tazzie
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Susan.....cannot see in 1881
Susan Frances Jenks b 1809 died 1882 Shoreditch.
Tazzie
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Excellent find in 1871 Tazzie. Now who was Elizabeth Joseph?
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I may have found the Jackson connection ( remember the witness to Rosina's wedding?).
Sarah Maria Jenks (father John Jenks, Gent) married engineer William Besant Jackson 26 November 1846 at St Pancras. Witnesses Benjmn Hillier, Sarah Jenks.
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Sarah Maria is subsequently widowed and marries again at St Pancras on 25 August 1860 to vet Edwin Rogerson.
Father shown as John Jenks, Innkeeper
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George Stillwell Jenks marries Eliza Miller 1 October 1848 at St Pancras. Father shown as John Jenks, Licensed Victualler. Witnesses Saml J Griffin and Elvia/Eliza Miller (?) ( EDIT - oh I see David's already posted that one)
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Hi Shaun....
one b 1849 on the 1851 census with Grandmother MargaretPerry.
HO107/1707 F 200 P7.
BY 1861 3 come into play most likely she is on Susan's side
Tazzie
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George Stillwell Jenks appears from the censuses to have been born in Bedford. DoB was 29 August 1821 per the 1823 baptism register.
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Here's a photo of the american dime novelist George C Jenks ( son of George Stillwell Jenks & Eliza Miller)
http://www.ulib.niu.edu/badndp/jenks_george.html
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Shalena........
see... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,331852.0.html
and... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,214301.0.html
Perhaps you could PM whoever started these topics & see if you get more info although they have not been on RootsChat for a while. I noticed that I replied to both the topics. The memorues going I'm afraid.
chees John
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Hi All.
ShaunJ invited me over. :)
From the Northants Baptism Indexes.
Potterspury C of E
23 Jul 1794
John JINKS s John & Elizabeth
Sandy
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From the Northants Marriage Indexes.
Towcester
09 Apr 1787 By License
John JENKS of Potterspury, widower to Elizabeth MAYNARD otp, minor, but with the consent of her father
Sandy
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Wow!
I have just returned and found all this new information.
I can't thank-you all enough for all the hard work and dedication you have put in trying to track this family down...JJ has turned out to be far more interesting that I thought at first.
There are certain things that I have to do right now, but I will try and pop back in later this evening. I just wanted to let you all know...."How Great You All Are!"
Thank-you,
Shalena
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Hello everyone,
Sorry it has been so long.
John - Thanks for leaving those threads. I have not had a response as of yet. Shame, as we are both looking for the same family lines it seems.
Shaun - That article you found about George C Jenks was great. I may try looking into that side one day when I am a lady of leisure. From the image of him, we don't seem to have been handed down any of his looks over the years...thank goodness! Not exactly a 'movie star' look about him...but he does remind me of someone...just can't think who at the moment.
Sandy - Thank-you for 'popping in'...your input has been gratefully received. I am left wondering what the 'Jinks' part of John's name is about though!? ::)
To all who have taken the time to help me out with John Jenks and his family, I send a heartfelt
"Thank-You". I couldn't have done it without your time, efforts and experience. I am glad it has appeared to be more than just a humdrum 'born-lived-died' tale.
Best wishes to one and all, maybe our paths will cross again sometime...
Shalena
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The 3 John Jenks marriages at St Pauls Bedford were all by licence.
Oct 22 1819 John Jenks of St Pauls, bachelor to Sarah George of St Pauls, spinster
Dec 4 1847 John Jenks of Seymour Street, Euston Square, London Middx, widower to Mary Tebbs of St Pauls Bedford, widow
Jan 25 1859 John Jenks of St Pauls, widower to Susan Frances Probutt of St Lukes Chelsea, Middx, widow
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Added value from the John Jenks marriage entries
25/10/1819 to Sarah George; in presence of William George & Lucy George
06/12/1847 to Mary Tebbs
JJ is desribed as a Gentleman, his father John Jenks, Innkeeper
Mary is Inkeeper, father Robert Hill, Coachman
Witnesses Edward Langley & Thomas Loveledge (the parish clerk)
31/01/1859 to Sarah Frances Probutt
JJ is Inkeeper of High St Bedford, father John Jenks, Innkeeper
Sarah is of St Lukes Chelsea, father Germain ? Joseph, wine merchant
Witnesses Willian Harrison ?? ?? ?? , Emily Jenks, Sarah Maria Jackson, Matthew Smethurst
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Also checked marriage of Eliza Adelaide Jenks to John Hill at St Pauls on 10 July 1854. Both are of full age, Eliza's father is John Jenks of High St Bedford, Innkeeper, John Hill is a gentleman, father Robert Hill(s) of Stepney, Brewer. Witnesses John Jenks & Michael M Mays ?
So is this Robert Hills father of John Hills related to Robert Hills father of Mary Tebbs, very much doubt it is the same chap due to age gap.
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Noted there is a baptism at St Pauls on 14 Jan 1853 of John Worrel Jenks, son of George & Eliza Jenks, clerk, of Tavistock Street Bedford
In the 1853 Bedford Directory, listed under 'Clergy, Gentry, etc.' is George Jenks, Tavistock Street. While in same book under 'Trades' is John Jenks, victualler, "Red Lion" hotel & Posting house, High St Bedford (omnibus to meet the train at Sandy station).
The directories for 1850 and 1854 also list Joh Jenks at the Red Lion
In 1861 he is listed as lime buner at 7 Union Street
In 1864 he is listed ar the 'New Inn' on Tavistock Steet
From 1869 he is not listed.
That's all folks......
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Hello .....
Well Germain is there in the records....
Susan Frances Joseph bapt 28 Dec1810 St James Westminster
father Germain Winnoch Joseph
mother Susan
siblings are Germain Thomas John b 1813
Eliza Mary b 1816
Emily Charlotte b 1817
Juliet Caroline b 1819
Francis Henry b 1820
Alfred Albertus b 1823
Isabella Ellis b 1825
Arthur Charles b 1827
Tazzie
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Good-morning John and Tazzie,
I had a lovely surprise when I finally logged on this morning (after we had had a power cut last night), to find that you had both come up with all this extra information. Thank-you both very much, you really have gone the 'extra mile' with this family.
Thought you may like to know about this I found in the London Gazette:-
7 February 1850, a petition for adjudication of Bankrupcy filed against George Stillwell Jenks of 12, King's Street, Hammersmith, Middsx; Cheesemaker, Dealer and Chapman, a bankrupt.....pg 624
7 November 1850, The Court has authorised the Bankrupcy for a Public Sitting to be held on 25 February, 1851.....pg 283
7 November 1850, George S Jenks has to surrender to Joshua Evans Esq; on the 19th of November 1850, and the 19th December 1850.....pg 2976
Looks like he is following in the family 'tradition'!
Regards, Shalena
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From the Northants Baptism Indexes.
Potterspury C of E
23 Jul 1794
John JINKS s John & Elizabeth
Hello Sandy, Any other Jinks/Jenks in the Potterspury baptism records to John & Elizabeth; & perhaps to his previous wife - whoever she was.
John Jenks of Red Lion on his marriage certs name his father as John Jenks, also an Innkeeper, perhaps he kept local in Potterspury
but had he died by 1801 as from.....
http://www.potterspury.org.uk/fhs/pr/pury/Marriages1800s.htm
..... there's a marriage on 12 Nov 1801 of John Tarry of Paulerspury to Elizabeth Jenks, widow
regards John
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Freebmd has the death of a Sarah Jenks at St Pancras in the March quarter 1847
Found the burial of Sarah JINKS of 100 Upper Seymour Street, Euston Square, St Pancras on 14 Jan 1847 at All Souls Cemetery, Kensal Green. She was 49.
Seymour Street is where John & Sarah & 3 children were living on 1841 census, & the address John Jenks gives on his marriage licence in 1847 (to Mary Tebbs)
So can anyone determine more about Sarah George born 1798 (who was of this parish of St Paul's Bedford when she married JJ in 1819) in conjunction with witnesses William George & Lucy George
cheers John
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There's an IGI baptism of Sarah George dau of Robert and Elizabeth on 31 Mar 1797 at Bedford St Mary, and they subsequently baptised a child at St Pauls. But whilst they baptised a William by the look of it at Wilstead they didn't baptise a Lucy, and I can't see that William married a Lucy.
So whilst it might be the right Sarah, it equally might not - the absence of a Lucy George disturbs me. But I can't see a burial or another obvious marriage of the Sarah George baptised 1797, and Robert was buried at St Pauls in 1818. John Jenks was born in Northants. Was Sarah the same?
David
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Thanks for the reply David, I will check out those items in the PRs when I next visit library / archives.
As to the John Jenks - for his first 3 childrens' baptisms he's a tallow chandler & then on his next 3 children he's a gentleman. It suggets that he's nor just a worker but a businessman & perhaps his details may archived somewhere.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,309390.0.html
cheers John
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John and David,
I have just been looking at your latest findings. Very interesting.
Thank-you both for your continued interest and follow-ups...and I shall look further into the Guildhall Library link to see if there is any mention regarding JJ's possible apprenticeship/business dealings. I may be able to get to London in a few weeks, so could go in person.
S.
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Revisiting this .... John Jenks & wife Sarah moved to St Pancras area, Middlesex & raised a family as follows, from baptism entries:-
George Stillwell Jenks son of John & Sarah of Great Smith St, tallow chandler at St John the Evangelist, Westminster; baptised on 17 Aug 1823, born 29 Aug 1821
Sarah Maria Jenks daughter of John & Sarah, of Doughty Place, tallow chandler. St Mary at Lambeth, baptised 6 Jan 1826
Augusta Amelia Jenks daughter of John and Sarah, of Lambeth Walk, tallow chandler. 26 Nov 1826 St Mary at Lambeth
Emma Silenia Jenks, born 15 Apr 1831, baptised 15 May at St Mary’s church, Islington of daughter of John & Sarah Jenks, Gentleman of Goswell Road, Islington
Eliza Adelaide Jenks born 7 July 1833, baptised 9 July 1837, as above
Jane Lavinia Jenks, born 11 March 1837, baptised 9 July 1837, as above
However two daughters died & were buried the same day. Jane Lavinia Jenks age 2 & Emma Silenia Jenks age 7 were both buried on 13 Feb 1839 at All Souls cemetery, Kensal Green, Clerkenwell.
There was another daughter Rosina Emily Jenks that I haven’t found a baptism for, but has a birth index at Pancras in Jan-Mar quarter 1841
On 1841 census John & Sarah are with children Augusta aged 15, Alicia 7 & Lavinia 4 months
On 1851 census living at the Red Lion is John Jenks, Innkeeper, widower, with daughters Augusta age 24 born Lambeth & Rosina aged 10 born London
So did we determine that the Lavinia age 4 months on 1841 is Rosina ?
& who the *** is Alicia ? is she Eliza Adelaide ?
I'd like to find George Stillwell & Sarah Maria on 1841 census.
I have marriages for all the above 5 children so they should be there.
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Good morning John....
George in 1841
(He shows in Hamersmith in 1851 as Railway clerk) SO ....
Aldbury Herts....
George Jenks 20 Clerk rail not born in county.
HO107/440 F 20 P7
Tazzie
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Thaks Tazzie,
He was a railway clerk on his 1848 marriage cert as well as the 1851 census entry.
I wonder, as he's at Aldbury, if he was working at Tring station - just as I was driving round that area last Sunday.
John
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Hi ...
Tring station is a short walk down one of the roads. Aldbury is a lovely village and where hubbies 2xgreat grandma was born.
There is a Sarah Jenks at Wolverton station on the 1841 census age 16 female servant not born in county. HO107/59 F20 P34.
Just wondered if George helped get her the job?
Tazzie
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Thanks again Tazzie, it could be her, short of finding an alternative.
When she married William Besant Jackson in Nov 1846 at St. Pancras parish church they were both of St Pancras. On 1851 she is age 26 born Lambeth & living in Conduit Street Bedford.
John
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John,
You really are on the trail of this family! Great work by you and Tazzie.
I have a question......when looking at the London Gazette for 25th Feb; 1881, I found an article regarding a George Stillwell Jenks who was being petitioned for bankrupcy (as from 7th Feb; 1850). This petition carries on for another two issues of the paper.
It is a fairly unusual middle name I would have thought, so could this be the same person???
His address is given as 12, King Streeet, Hammersmith, Middsx; and he is described as 'Cheesemonger, Dealer and Chapman', trading under the company of Jenks & Co;.
It just doesn't tally with your locating him as a railway clerk at about the same time!
Thanks,
Shalena
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On the marriage cert George Stillwell Jenks lists himself as a railway clerk father John a Lic Victualler living New Street.
I will have a look for a cheesemonger.
Tazzie
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"What'd he say ?", "Blessed are the Cheesemakers I think"
From Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'
Anyway, the George & Eliza Jenks with 1 year old son Charles on the 1851 census living in Hammersmith who is the railway clerk says he's born Bedford. OK that is probably & then John & Sarah went home to St Pancras & baptised him later.
& from 1851 census there is a George Jenks born Bedford, married age 39 lodging in St Marylebone, without wife & family.. & he's a Ironmonger's fireman. ? toasted cheese anyone
John
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Oh dear...the cheese has gone to my head I think! Let's see where we are.
'Our' JJ married Sarah and they had a son, George Stillwell Jenks. The date of birth for him I have written down is 29th August 1821, with him being baptised on 17th August 1823 in London. This fits as it appears our JJ had 'connections' in Bedford (if not family - recall the William Jenks who was registered as the licencee at the Red Lion prior to John taking over). There is also the report of a John Jenks (Shopkeeper of St Pauls Bedford), prosecuting Isaac King and others in July 1820. So it is more than likely that the birth of George would have been there, and not in London.
George S. Jenks, goes on to marry Eliza, and they have a son , born 13th April 1850 in London, who they name George Charles Jenks, (the man who went to the USA in 1872, who had been in the printing trade in London, and took up as editor and a writer and critic when in the States). My notes from the paper say George S was at 12, King St, Hammersmith in Feb; 1850 and on to Feb; 1851.
This would tie in with the 1851 census showing George C Jenks as 'Charles - 1 year old'; but why the different address? Would it be one was his home address, and the other his business address? Or perhaps he had to change addresses due to the bankrupcy...and this just happened to be between the date of the court hearing and the census?
Fine so far...but who is the other George Jenks, Ironmongers fireman?? His age wouldn't fit with our George S.(who would have been 30), unless it is one of those anomalies you come across. But why a third trade? He can't have been a rail clerk, a cheesemonger and work at an ironmongers all within the same year!!!
The Life of Brian is looking pretty straight forward in comparison with this. ::)
Shalena
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In 1871 he's an accountant
Living in St Andrews Holborn is George age 49 born Bedford, accountant; & wife Eliza age 40 born St Lukes, Charles (= George) age 20 born Hammersmith, printer; Frank age 14 born St Pancras, Law writers clerk; & Annie age 12 born Paddington, Scolar
Where are these in 1861
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So George and Eliza had at least two more surviving children...Frank and Annie.
And he has now gone from being a railway clerk to an accountant!
It's funny that you are having trouble locating them on the 1861 census, as I had trouble locating our line from Augusta and Thomas Priestley during that year as well. They married in 1851 and we have her listed on the 1871 census as living at 339, Kentish Town Road, but no mention of Thomas. He could have travelling as part of his job of course. Living with them is her sister Rosina, who is noted as being a governess.
In 1881, we find them living at 37, Osney Crescent, St Pancras. Thomas has since died.
Augusta Amy Priestley-widow-54-Proprietor of a Governess Institution
Charles Albert-son-29-Builders Surveyor
Edith Rosina-daughter-24-no noted profession
Ernest Thomas-son-22-born Bedford c1858-Commercial Clerk Bidder
Herbert Walter-son-18-born c1863 Lambeth-Solicitors Clerk
Ernest Thomas is 'our line'. He marries Annie Eliza Cousens in 1889 at Hampstead. She was noted as living at Lee High Road and worked as a Cook/Servant. They had two known children, and from the 1891 census we find:-
The family are living at 44, Douglas Road, Hendon, and they have their first child Ruby W. Priestley aged 2 months.
On the 1901 census:-
Ernest Thomas-Head-42-Private Estate Agent
Annie Eliza-Wife-32
Ruby Winifred-daughter-10-Scholar
Kathleen Amy-daughter-7-Scholar.....she went on to marry Sidney Mew on 6 Jan 1916 at the Parish Church, Wimbledon. They were my Grandparents on my Fathers side.
Shalena
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On 1861 census these are mistranscribed as Pristty & Augusta aged 54
Living at 14 Fosters Street, Bedford
Augusta Priestly, head, married, age 34 born Lambeth; Commercial Traveller's wife
Charles Priestley, son, age 9 born Newington
Edith Priestley, daughter, age 5, born Kingham?, Middlesex
RG9/989 Folio 105 Page 5
Regarding Thomas Priestly do have has birth year & birth place to help the search for him.
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Thank-you John,
Have Edith Rosina born at what looks like Ringstead/Kingstead (?), Middlesex; Ernest Thomas born Bedford, and Herbert Walter born Newington.
As for Thomas's details...all we could find were the two censuses:-
1851 says he is 32 and living in Francis Street, St Pauls, Newington with his 7 year old son, also Thomas, from his first marriage (so birth year would be c1819), plus 20 years to the 1871 census and he is now noted as being 48 (which would be a birth year of c1823). Which it is I do not know for sure. Neither do I know what happened to his son as he is never mentioned after the 1851 census. As he would have been c 17yrs in 1861, I suppose he could be working/living away from home. Or maybe he died.
One other point...Thomas's father was named James Priestley, so I have been advised.
Shalena
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The 1871 census entry says he was born Walworth, which is part of Newington
There is a baptism entry for Thomas James Priestley at St Peter's Walworth, Southwark on 30 Oct 1825, born 11 June 1825 to James & Sarah of Milk street, father was a tailor.
This couple also baptised Benjamin on 25 Nov 1827, born 23 Sept 1827
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That's wonderful news about Thomas & co; John. Thank-you.
Have to disappear until this evening, but happy hunting and enjoy your day.
Shalena
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There's an IGI baptism of Sarah George dau of Robert and Elizabeth on 31 Mar 1797 at Bedford St Mary, and they subsequently baptised a child at St Pauls. But whilst they baptised a William by the look of it at Wilstead they didn't baptise a Lucy, and I can't see that William married a Lucy.
David, I found a marriage licence dated 3 June 1820 of William George of St Pauls to Sarah Gudgin of Ampthill; married at Ampthill 5 June 1820.
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Ampthill - Of Anglo Saxon origin, first called 'Aemethyll' which literally means 'ant-heap' or 'ant infested hill'. Wonder if they got the 'Seven Year Itch' after they married there?
Shalena
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John Jenks a poss for 1871....
Poplar John Jukes hd m 76 no occ Northampton
Susan wi m 54 London
Elizabeth Joseph niece u 22? dressmaker London
The Elizabeth Joseph appears later on 1881 census in Stratford, age 32 born St Pancras, dressmaker, niece to Francis H Joseph born 1820 St George, Middx & wife Sarah.
This is Francis Henry Joseph who married Sarah Allen on 15 May 1848 at St Lukes, father Germain Joseph; who happens to be Susan Frances's father; she is 3rd wife of John Jenks.
Another loose end tied up
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Susan Frances Jenkes is found on 1881 census living at 10 Ironmongers Almshouses Shoreditch, Inmate, widower, Annuitant, age 65, born St James Middlesex
RG11/402 Folio 85 page 9
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now going back to 1820 Bedford...
John Jenks ls is in business as a shopkeeper in St Paul’s, as from the Beds Archives, at the Midsummer Quarter Sessions dated 10 July 1820 there is a recognizance entry for him, to attend in the case against 5 boys accused of stealing 4 & ¼ yards of printed cotton & 2lbs of bacon.
Another shopkeeper, Henry Norman along with wife Mary of St Mary’s also had a recognizance issued, & these gave details regarding the theft of cotton so I assume that John Jenks lost his bacon.
The accused were Isaac King, Thomas Dowell, Thomas Johnson, Samuel Richards & Samuel Langham. Police constable George Asplin gave evidence.
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Great detective work John!
I think I have this straight now...Susan Frances Jenks (nee Joseph and Allen), and Francis Henry Joseph were brother and sister...their father being Germain Joseph. Elizabeth Joseph was niece to them both, thereby supposing that she was the daughter of another of their siblings...a brother if she was given the surname Joseph. Phew!
What a shame Susan ended up on her own in the Almshouse. That was life back then though I suppose.
Thank you so much for all this information you have located...I would never have got anywhere near all this detail without your help, time and patience...and that of your co-researchers. A big thank-you to you all!
Shalena
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There's an IGI baptism of Sarah George dau of Robert and Elizabeth on 31 Mar 1797 at Bedford St Mary, and they subsequently baptised a child at St Pauls. But whilst they baptised a William by the look of it at Wilstead they didn't baptise a Lucy, and I can't see that William married a Lucy.
David, I found a marriage licence dated 3 June 1820 of William George of St Pauls to Sarah Gudgin of Ampthill; married at Ampthill 5 June 1820.
.... and what's more a witness to the marriage was John Jenks, the other was Hannah Gudgin.
On 1841 census living with a butcher in Ampthill is a Thomas Gudgin age 24, journeyman & William George age 18 Apprentice. This William is most likely son of William & Sarah George, born 6 Jul 1822 & baptised 25 May 1825 in Ampthill. On 1851 William George, master pork butcher says he's born Bedford.
So assuming William George & Sarah George are related, if anyone can find Willam & Sarah (ne Gudgun) George on 1841 & 1851 we could determine their family.
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Well done John.
I am just about keeping up with all the intricacy!
Shalena
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from the list of licencees of the Red Lion (from the Beds Archives article)
William Tebbs, senior 1841 - 1844
Mary Tebbs, 1844 - 1847
William Jenks, 1849
John Jenks, 1850 - 1854
I think William Jenks is a non-entity ....
I was looking at the Petty Sessions records at the Beds Archives this morning. It contains licencing applications & transfers and every September there is a record of the licencees for each public house in Bedford town parishes.
For the Red Lion, High Street, St Paul's
Sept 1846 & 1847 Mary Tebbs, widow
Sept 1848 to 1852 John Jenks
Sept 1853 to 1855 Thomas Peatling
On 7 April 1848 John Jenks applied for a transfer of the licence from Mary Tebbs.
On 8 July 1853 John Jenks applied to transfer the licence to sell exciseable liquors in the house of his occupation to Thomas Peatling & Sons - Application refused
On 5 August 1853 John Jenks applied again & it was approved
Interesting to see that on these lists of licencees, one Thomas Partridge of 'The Cherry Tree' public house in St Mary's up to Sept 1849, he being brother to my gt-gt-grandfather
cheers John
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So the brother of your gt; gt; grandfather...Thomas Partridge of 'The Cherry Tree'... was there in Bedford at the same time, doing the same job, and presumably, had knowledge of our John Jenks who was the Father of Augusta who married my Gt; Gt; Grandfather, Thomas Priestley. :D
What a small world this is, John...wonder if your gt; gt; grandfather knew them as well? ;D
Shalena
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Regarding Sarah George seems to be William George's sister. Still don't know who Lucy is though.
Following up David's suggestion earlier in this dialogue; there is a marriage licence index dated 6 Feb 1793 that has Robert George, bach, age 21&over, marrying Elizabeth Dunham, spinster, minor, daughter of Samuel of Wilstead; surety given by Sam Dunham, farmer of Wilstead.
Robert & Elizabeth baptised son William Samuel at Wilstead on 11 Feb 1794, and later children around Bedford parsihes. At St Johns, Martin 20/9/1795 & Charles 26/4/1802. At St Marys, Sarah 31/3/1797 & Betsy 7/8/1799. At St Pauls, Elizabeth 13/11/1809. I am assuming it is the same Robert & Elizabeth, but why would they have an Elizabeth after a Betsy - when I can't find a burial of the first one.
There are burials at Bedford St Pauls of Elizabeth, wife of Robert (at Old Meeting) on 11 Nov 1811 & of Robert on 5 Jul 1818 age 46 making him born 1772.
From a contact off Ancestry I have this information. Penelope Church, b 1811, Higham Gobion married in Welwyn, Herts on 15 Oct 1856, William George widower, b 1794,Wilshamstead. From the marriage certificate William's father is Robert George, farmer. Witnesses are George Shaw & Susan Shaw.William's residence is Houghton Conquest,Beds. Wife Sarah was buried Houghton Conquest on 3/6/1843 age 46. In 1841, William & Sarah plus a 4 month old Emma are living at How End in Houghton Conquest. In 1851 Penelope Chuch was house keeper to son William George, master butcher in Ampthill.
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This Houghton Conquest connect intrigues me. In 1841 we have William & Sarah George farming in How End. On that same census we have William & Mary Tebbs farming in How Hill. If this Tebbs couple then go on to be licencees of the Red Lion has not been proven. Then if John Jenks & wife Sarah George were to go visiting her brother in HC then they might be aquantained with the Tebbs which could account for him marrying Mary in 1847.
Any thoughts ?
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Fantastic work John...
It seems entirely possible that JJ (having visited William with his then wife Sarah), would have met/known Mary and her then husband William if both families were farming in the same area. Communities were much smaller then, and tended to know each other well...whether they liked each other or not!
As for the problem regarding the birth of an Elizabeth (after a Betsy that does not seem to have died), I have something to throw into the pot. What if Robert & Elizabeth were not the 'real' parents, but their daughter Sarah was (at age 12 or so), and they just took her on as theirs? I add this because we have come across another very young birth in a part of our family (again 12 yrs old), and this baby was taken on by her parents before finally being re-united with her 'real' mother later when she married.
I have no idea how this could be proved one way or the other...but it may be a possibility.
Shalena
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I was looking through the 1867 Ampthill Directory and found the following:-
William George - Butcher - Bedford Street.........and
Elizabeth Gudgin - Butcher - Woburn Street....(just round the corner).
So, not only was William still trading there but it seems a possible relative of his Father's 1st wife, Sarah, was a rival butcher too...a woman butcher at that! Didn't know they had female butchers back then.
I found some early 1900's photos of the two streets, and a few were of butchers in both Bedford and Woburn Street...but not knowing the address of either, I couldn't make out if any were of either of their properties. Very interesting to see what they may have been like 30 odd years before, as apparently they hadn't changed all that much.
Shalena
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from the list of licencees of the Red Lion (from the Beds Archives article)
William Tebbs, senior 1841 - 1844
Mary Tebbs, 1844 - 1847
William Jenks, 1849
John Jenks, 1850 - 1854
For the Red Lion, High Street, St Paul's
Sept 1846 & 1847 Mary Tebbs, widow
Sept 1848 to 1852 John Jenks
Sept 1853 to 1855 Thomas Peatling
Further delving in the Petty Sessions minutes yesterday for 1840- 1844 Beds Archives reference PS BB1/1
William Tebbs is listed as the licencee of the Red Lion in Sept of every year 1840 - 1845; however it turns out that for 1840, 41 & 42 it is William Tebbs, the younger; who on 8th May 1843 applied for consent to transfer licence of The Red Lion, High Street to William Tebbs, ther elder - Consent Granted. Thus William Tebbs & wife Mary were only licencees from 1843 onwards.
On 12th May 1843 Elizabeth Bass applied to transfer the licence of The George Inn, High Street to William Tebbs, the younger, as from Sept 1843 onwards he was licencee of The George until his death in 18512, when the licence transfered to his wife Eliza.
Move on a few years, on 21 Mar 1863 there is an entry for the licence of The New Inn on Tavistock street, St Pauls to be endowed to John Jenks. Then on 13 April 1863 a licence to sell excisable liquors at New Inn, Tavistock Street was granted to John Jenks. However JJ was only there the one year.
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Thank-you for the new information you have found John. I did have amongst my notes that JJ was at The New Inn in 1864...but I am still a bit perplexed about these dates as different sources say slightly different time spans. Let me see if I have it correct up to now:
c 1847 - JJ goes to Bedford to marry Mary.
1848 - 1853 - JJ is running the Red Lion Inn and living there before handing it over to Thomas Peatling.
1853 - 1861 - He marries Susan in 1859, but there is no mention of where he is living, or what he is doing.
1861 - census says that he is an Innkeeper, but no mention of where.
- no mention of living at any address at time of bankrupcy on 10th April.
- appears to have moved into 7, Union Street, Bedford and working as a Lime Burner.
1863-64 - The New Inn is endowed to JJ and he takes over the running of the place for a year.
1864 - 1871 - it is not known where JJ and Susan are until they turn up on the census in Poplar, London in 1871, where he lives until his death in 1873.
Does that sound about right to you? :)
Shalena
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Shalena, You are correct in most things.
On his marriage to Susan Probutt in 1859 it says that JJ is Innkeeper of High Street Bedford.
On his son George Stillwell Jenks' marriage in Oct 1848 it says JJ is licenced victaller.
On his daughter Augusta Amelia marriage in May 1851 JJ is hotel keeper of St Paul's (his daughters address)
Jun 1854 advert in Beds Times says John Jenks of Red Lion, Bedord
On his daughter Eliza Adelaide marriage in July 1854 JJ is Innkeeper of High Street.
On 1861 JJ is an Innkeeper still at the Red Lion, although not the licencee.
1863/1864 JJ is licencee of New Inn Tavistock Street
Melville's Bedford directory on 1867 has JJ lime burner of 7 Union Street
By 1871 JJ & wife Susan are back in Stratford Le Bow, Tower Hamlets
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Good-afternoon John,
Thank-you for clearing all that up for me!
I seem to have got muddled up between when JJ was the actual licencee at the Red Lion, and when he was just working there.
It seems that JJ was at Union Street later than I thought, in 1867, not the early 1860's.
Hopefully I will soon be able to get all this collated properly and typed up...will certainly clear up some of the scribbled notes that lay higglety-pigglety over the desk. :D
Many thanks for your help once again......hope you and yours have a lovely Easter.
Shalena
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found this regarding George Stillwell Jenks, the cheesemaker, dated Oct 1850
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18501021-name-722&div=t18501021-1827#highlight
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That trial transcript was interesting...thank-you John.
I wouldn't have thought that the name 'Stillwell' would have been all that common, especially with exactly the same christian and surnames, and both living in the same area at the same time...but what do I know!
Hopefully this shows that they are indeed two different people, who just happen to share a name...maybe from some kind of family link somewhere in the extended family?
When writing up all your research, I have not included this part in the general body...just as additional notes so that someone, at some time, can follow it up if they so wish.
Regards, Shalena
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From the Beds Archives - they have a copy of the will of William Tebbs, of Bedford, Innkeeper, signed & dated 5 June 1845, witnessed by George Witt, M.D,, Bedford & George Bryant, builder, Bedford. It says " I bequeath all my real & personal estate to my wife Mary Tebbs......" . Proved on 18 Oct 1845 ... 'personal estate at time of death did not amount to the sum of fifteen hundred pounds'
Fair enough - he left everything to his wife, no mention of son, William Tebbs the younger.
Moving on....... I have copy of last will & testament of Mary Jenks (late Mary Tebbs widow) now the wife of John Jenks, late of Seymour Street, Euston Square in Middlesex, an officer in the Establishment of the London & North Western Railway Company but now of the town of Bedford, Innkeeper; whereas previous to my marriage to the said John Jenks, a marriage settlement was executed whereby all my personal estate & effects was assigned unto Mr Edward Langley & Mr William Harrison Upon trust for my separate use during the joint lives of the said John Jenks any myself And if I should be the survivor in trust for me absolutely But in case I should die in the lifetime of the said John Jenks them immediately after my decease upon trust to dispose of the same and after payment of expenses to raise & retain the sum of three hundred pounds sterling .......................
......... & bequeath the said sum of three hundred pounds unto my natural daughter Jane Savage the wife of John Savage of St Marys, Bedford, Glover & Breeches-maker & shall appoint the said Edward Langley & William Harrison to pay the whole sum of three hundred pounds unto her....
The will is dated 8 Dec 1848 - a year after she marries JJ, it is proved 31 March 1851 where 'the personal estate was under the value of two hundred pounds at time of decease'
It should be noted that Edward Langley was a witness at marriage if JJ to Mary Tebbs, & that William Harrison is a witness at marriage of JJ to Susan Probutt
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What a find...how interesting to see what was bequeathed and to find out that Mary and William (I trust William was the father!?), had a daughter, Jane.
The sums of money talked about are interesting. £150 would have been approx: £13,100 RPI and £116,000 ae in 2008; £300 = £26,200 RPI & £232,000ae; £1,000 = £80,000 RPI & £772,000ae. Quite considerable sums in those times. Not bad for now either!
It seems that the same old names keep cropping up when following this family through their lives. But then Bedford would have been a relatively small community, I think around 7 thousand in the mid-1800's if my memory is working properly; and London/Middx; were not as populated as they are now.
Thanks John, great work,
Shalena
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Greetings Shalena
I see you are researching the Priestley family. I am also researching this family for a dear friend. She descends from Maria Louisa PRIESTLEY. I would be interested in discussing this further.
Thanks
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Good afternoon phveens,
I have only just picked up your message, so apologise for the delay in responding to you. Having just checked the little information I have about the PRIESTLEY's in our line, I have not managed to locate anyone named Maria Louisa. If you could give some more detail as to her birth, marriage etc; then I may find a link with 'our's' as someone that we were not aware of.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards, Shalena
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I have a Thomas James Priestley b 1825 Newington (son of Thomas James Priestley & Sarah). He was one of 7 siblings, Maria Louisa being one of them. Other siblings were Nancy, Sarah, Hannah, Amelia, Jonathan & Benjamin, all born Newington, Surrey.
I think you wrote in one of your messages that John Jenks was the Father of Augusta Amelia who married your ggg grandfather, Thomas Priestley and I was thinking perhaps he and Maria Louisa might be brother and sister but perhaps not.
Do any other names ring any bells??
Thanks
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The Thomas Priestley that married Augusta Amelia Jenks on 19/05/1851 at Newington St Marys was a widower & has that his father is James Priestley, deceased on the marriage certificate. On 1851 census in Newington there is Thomas Priestly, widower age 32 born Newington, commercial traveller (soup) along with 7 year old son Thomas.
When did your Maria Louisa Priestly marry, & to whom. FreeBMD has 2 marriages, the first in Dec 1839 in Newington. The marriage cert (as per Anc*'s London marriages) has this on 7 Nov 1839 to John Kemp. Her father was James Priestly, tailor & a witness is named as Amelia Priestley. Her baptism is online, dated 23 Oct 1814 parents James & Sarah, father was a tailor.
The other marriage is in June 1850 in Richmond, is this your Maria? Do you have the marriage certificate?
Regards John
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There is a marriage of Thomas James Priestley to Emma Blackman at Newington on 6 Aug 1848, Thomas was a mariner & his father was Thomas James Priestley, Tailor.
Amelia Priestly married George Picton at Newington on 27 Mar 1842, her father was James Priestly, Tailor
Hannah Priestly (baptised 1/3/1818) married William Buckland on 15 Apr 1839 at Newington, her father James Priestley, Tailor.
It seems Maria Louisa, plus Thomas James, Amelia, Hannah are all children of Thomas James or just plain James Priestley, the tailor & wife Sarah. While Thomas who married Augusta Amelia Jenks was a widower I cannot find death/burial of the wife Emma he married in 1848 but then I cannot find a Thomas & Emma on 1851 census.
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Good evening John, thank you for looking into this topic.
You said you could not locate Thomas James & his first wife Emma in 1851, (thank-you for locating her name by the way, I did not know it). I do not know anything about what happened with Emma, but, we have Thomas James Priestley & his son Thomas, aged 7yrs, on the 1851 census as living at 35, Francis Street, St Mary, Newington, where he is noted as a widower...on 19th May of that same year, he married Augusta Amelia Jenks at Newington Parish Church. Where Augusta was living at that time I do not know.
Shalena
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Regarding the 7 year old son Thomas Priestly born Bedford found with Thomas P senior on the 1851 census at Newington. His birth index is Sept 1843 Bedford ref 6/27 - it'd be good if you got his birth certificate so we can get mother's name. I cannot find a baptism for him on the IGI
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Shalina; On the 1851 marriage cert Augusta Amelia Jenks was of St Pauls Bedford. On 1851 census she was living with father John Jenks in High St Bedford (The Red Lion). Back to the marriage cert, one of the witnesses was Godfrey Young who is Thomas Priestley's neighbour also living in Francis Street Newington on 1851 census.
Thomas & Augusta baptised 3 children in Newington; Charles Albert on 17 Apr 1853, Augusta Ann on 10 Sep 1854 (she was buried at 4 months on 8 Oct 1854) & Edith Rosina on 20 Jul 1856. On the 1st 2 Thomas is described as a Gent, on the 3rd he is a commercial traveller. Charles & Edith are with mother Augusta in Bedford on 1861 census. Augusta was married but I have not found husband Thomas Priestley on 1861 or 1871. On 1871 Augusta (still as married) has 2 further children Ernest Thomas b 1859 Bedford & Herbert Walter b 1863 Lambeth. On 1881 Augusta is down as a widow.
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Anc* has a online public tree that features Thomas Priestley who married Augusta Jenks, & they have him baptised 14 Dec 1817 (born 11 Sept 1817) at Southwark St Saviour to parents James & Ann Priestley, James is a shop merchant. James P married Ann Trueman (or Tuesman) on 5 Jan 1806 at St Saviours, one witness was John Priestley.
If this is verified then the Thomas Priestley connected to the Jenks family is not the one with sister Maria Louisa, children of James & Sarah P, the tailor.
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Just found the burial on 22 Jan 1855 of Thomas Priestley aged 11 at Walworth St Peter Southwark The abode being Newington Crescent which is the abode given on the baptisms of Charles Albert & Augusta Ann.
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A lot to catch up with John, but thank-you so much for helping out. Where to start...
I did know about Thom J's son Thomas being born in Bedford, and the date. With things as they are here at the moment, I will not be able to apply for the certificate for a while, but as things progress I will keep that in mind.
My mistake! I did have that Augusta Amelia was living with her father in Bedford prior to the marriage...I will blame the medication. ::)
I did not know a witness to Thom J's 1st marriage was a Godfrey Young, neighbour.
We have noted about Charles Albert, Edith Rosina and, later, Herbert Walter. Your locating Augusta Ann was a surprise though. Commercial Traveller is what we had Thomas J as...'a gent' may be stretching the point!
Have Augusta Amelia in Bedford on 1861 census, with 2 of her children. Still have not been able to locate where our Ernest Thomas was though...he would have been c 2yrs old. Neither have we located Thomas J for that year, but being a comm; trav; he could have been boarding anywhere.
In 1871, we have Augusta at 339, Kentish Town, London...along with her children and her sister Rosina Amelia who is working as a governess.
That same year, we have Thomas J as boarding at 30, William Street, St George the Martyr, Southwark...he being 48 and still a comm; trav; of, (so it states), Walworth. This would make his birth year something like 1823. That's some leeway between all possible dates of birth for him so far.
The lists written up on Anc*** regarding Maria Louisa seem pretty close to a lot of what we have about this Priestley line...always assuming we have the correct info! It is entirely possible she would have been, (along with the other siblings noted), allied to Thomas and the Benjamin we had already have, but have not followed up.
If phveens can get hold of some documented names and dates then that should be easily resolved.
That was fantastic locating the burial of the young Thomas. Wondered if he had died as we had not found anything positive about him in later years, but not persued it too much.
Thank you John...Shalena
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Yes, it'd be nice if phveens could tell us more about her Priestley family.
I did not say that Emma Blackman was the first wife of the Thomas Priestley who then married Augusta Jenks; she did marriy a Thomas James Priestly (Mariner) in 1848, son of TJP the tailor - who I am assuming is the brother of Maria Louisa.
That aside - James Priestly, bach ( the tailor) married Sarah Priestley, spinster at St Marys Newington on 1 Sept 1811. They are on 1841 census living in Boundary Lane, Newington, James born 1791 & Sarah born 1788, both not in Surrey. Both were buried Walworth St Peters; James age 58 on 18/2/1859 and Sarah age 66 on 24/6/1854 - but I cannot find them on 1851 census.
Was this Sarah (1788) a sibling to the James P (1785) who married Ann Trueman in 1806 & they had our Thomas Priestley in 1817 ?
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Thank-you John. Hopefully I now have it computed correctly.
1: Emma B did marry a Thom J Priestley, (son of a T J Priestley who was a tailor), and he is a possible brother of
Maria Louisa. But this is not the family of 'our' Thom J Priestley. Just one with similar names/area/trade.
2: A James Priestley (1791), marries a Sarah Priestley (1788). She happend to have the same surname as his.
A James Priestley (1785), marries an Ann Trueman.
a) You are wondering if Sarah (1788), was a sibling to James P (1785)?
b) And maybe 'our' TJP's parents are not James and Sarah, (as we thought), but James and Ann?
Phew!
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I have just joined this site tonite and the first thing I find is people talking about my family tree - James Priestley and Sarah Priestley are my great great great grandparents, their daughter Maria Louisa who people have mentioned is my great great grandmother, I have the whole tree done, and Amelia Picton is Maria's sister, I can help anyone who wants to know more, and I would like to know more too. Are there missing relatives of mine there. I am from Wellington, New Zealand, what a small world. I am just new to this site so dont know how to use it yet. Please help!!
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Welcome to Rootschat.
Without knowing what you have in your tree it's a bit difficult for us to know if you have any missing relatives!
This board is best for when you have specific queries which we might be able to help with.
I know at least two of the contributors to this thread have none of the names mentioned in their own trees but are happy to help resolve queries which others may have.
David
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I posted a new query after reading the other people's postings on this site. They were talking about Maria Louisa and James Priestley, Amelia Picton nee Priestley etc. Maria and James are my gt gt gt grandparents, I have their mge cert in 1811. I can't understand the reply I got to my query saying people need to know who I am looking for before they can help as I thought I had explained it all in my message. Am I doing something wrong. It looks like I am related to Shalena who has posted messages about my family.
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I see Shalina is doing research on the priestleys, which it looks like its her ancesters, these are my ancesters too, so we are distantly related. As I am new to this can anybody explain some things for me, what does the "quote" button mean, when I see all your messages, especially shalina's, does every one see my messages, and can I contact shalina by email out of the chat room as we are related and I have the complete Priestley tree done and can help her or do I have to do that via the chat room. I found the info for new people to this site didnt answer my questions I need to know. Thanks
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As I am new to this can anybody explain some things for me, what does the "quote" button mean, when I see all your messages, especially shalina's, does every one see my messages, and can I contact shalina by email out of the chat room
When you reply using the quote button it quotes the message to which you are referring, which you can amend, as I've done above.
Yes, when you post a message everyone can see it. This is a message board, not a chat room
You can send Shalena a personal message by clicking on her name at the left of the post and then clicking on Send this rootschatter a personal message. No-one else can see personal messages.
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bedfordshire boy,
Thank-you for responding to the messages from aitchiva. I appreciate that.
I have been away dealing with some health problems, and not able to be on the computer for a while now.
Will respond to the messages within the next few days...meanwhile, I shall send a pm so it is not thought that I am ignoring the messages posted.
Thanks again!
Shalena