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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: DarrenMW on Friday 26 February 10 14:59 GMT (UK)
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Thomas Richey (born 1868) married Emily (nee Wood) Surrey. 1915
8 Children born in Brighton from 1918 to 1932. I have the dates of births.
Address in 1917 given as 62, Washington Street, Brighton, Sussex
Strongly suspect local Brighton area family connection prior to that as Sussex is written on his 1914 Army attestation.
All and any direction is most sincerely appreciated.
Thanks
Darren
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Hi Darren
Have you quoted his date of birth correctly?
Born in 1868, married in 1915 (aged 47) having children up to 1932 (aged 61) ?
I can not recognise anyone on the 1871 up to 1901 census that can fit in with those dates?
Chris in 1066
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Hi Chris ....and thanks for the reply.
Yes the Thomas Richey dates are correct per his June 1915 marriage certificate and December 1914 army re-enlistment papers, both have him as 46.
I was as shocked as you were! ;D
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Was he a bachelor on marriage cert?
And what was his occupation, and fathers name?
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On his 1914 army papers there's a cut-off page which lists his next-of-kin as:
Catherine Elizabeth Fergu____
34 Exeter St, Strand W_______
(Sister)
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Ohh that links with the 1891 I was just going to post
RG12 215 54 3
418 Strand, london
Alfred ferguson 36 Engravers finisher bn Strand
Cathrine 32 bn Holborn
Sidney 14 bn Leytonstone
Alfred 11 bn Strand
Florence 7 bn Holborn
Thomas Richey 25 unm brother-in-law Army Reservist bn Holborn
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Address in 1917 given as 62, Washington Street, Brighton, Sussex
Strongly suspect local Brighton area family connection prior to that as Sussex is written on his 1914 Army attestation.
The Dec 1914 papers, however, also state that he has previously served in the "2nd Royal West Surrey Regt".
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Thanks!
yes I see that on his army papers
Catherine Elizabeth Fegruson was listed as his next of kin (sister) at Exeter Street, London WC2.
On his 1914 army papers there's a cut-off page which lists his next-of-kin as:
Catherine Elizabeth Fergu____
34 Exeter St, Strand W_______
(Sister)
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Interesting as I can see a marriage in Holborn for ....
Alfred Ferguson
Catherine Elizabeth Hollingsworth 1878 Holborn
Right area .....different name.....
Tazzie
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WOW!
This looks like the Motherload!
I couldn't figure out the link to his sister being 'ferguson' until now!
So, he was staying with his sister and her husbands family!!!!
I am SO SO grateful!
Ohh that links with the 1891 I was just going to post
RG12 215 54 3
418 Strand, london
Alfred ferguson 36 Engravers finisher bn Strand
Cathrine 32 bn Holborn
Sidney 14 bn Leytonstone
Alfred 11 bn Strand
Florence 7 bn Holborn
Thomas Richey 25 unm brother-in-law Army Reservist bn Holborn
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Just dropping in to say that I have just replied to a posting about this same Thomas Richey on the Durham board. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,440451.new.html#new
We are in danger of duplicate postings
Jennifer
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Alfred and Catherine Ferguson are at RG11 329 14 23 in 1881
Thomas Richey is not with them then, though
But there are Hollingsworth rellies there (ties in with marriage Tazzie found)
(I've just linked the threads, Jen, and suggested replies go on here. As you say we dont want people duplicating effort and wasting time looking up what has already been looked up!)
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Hi Jen!
Thank you sincerely for your post.
We have determined Thomas Richey(1868) and his sister Catherine Elizabeth Ferguson(1875) born in Holborn, London.
However, I still don't know about his father Robert Ritchie who was an actor.
There is still anagging possibility he had Durham connections.
:)
Just dropping in to say that I have just replied to a posting about this same Thomas Richey on the Durham board. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,440451.new.html#new
We are in danger of duplicate postings
Jennifer
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Liz, is there and address for them in 1881?
The only confusion i have is that Thomas Richey is given as 25 in 1891, yer 46 in 1914 on his army papers and also 46 on his marriage cert in June 1915...
Seems to be a couple years difference.
That said, the connection to the Strand (where he enlisted in 1915- Maiden Lane) and the match of next of kin sister Catherine Ferguson is impossible to ignore.
I am so appreciative of all of this treasure trove of help!
Alfred and Catherine Ferguson are at RG11 329 14 23 in 1881
Thomas Richey is not with them then, though
(I've just linked the threads, Jen, and suggested replies go on here. As you say we dont want people duplicating effort and wasting time looking up what has already been looked up!)
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Alfred and Catherine Ferguson are at RG11 329 14 23 in 1881
Thomas Richey is not with them then, though
The 1881 yields useful further relatives - a sister for Catherine (Helen HOLLINGWORTH b abt 1860 London) and an aunt (Catherine HOLLINGWORTH, unm, b abt 1826 Southampton).
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Darren, you can see a transcription of the 1881 census free on www.familysearch.org. Catherine FERGUSON appears as Katherine on this occasion. Address is 23 Mercer St, London.
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The Hollingsworth name rings a bell with my Mother who i just now spoke to, She doesnt have specifics, but recalls the name on the Richey side of the family!
Alfred and Catherine Ferguson are at RG11 329 14 23 in 1881
Thomas Richey is not with them then, though
But there are Hollingsworth rellies there (ties in with marriage Tazzie found)
(I've just linked the threads, Jen, and suggested replies go on here. As you say we dont want people duplicating effort and wasting time looking up what has already been looked up!)
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There is still a nagging possibility he had Durham connections.
Can you enlarge on this, please?
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Thanks you!!!Amazing..we just took our first step into that generation!!!
Thomas RICHEY - father was ROBERT RICHEY
yet, all Thomas sisters , Catherine and Helen, had the maiden name HOLLINGSWORTH?
It is absolutely the correct family, but maybe there was an adoption or stepfather?? hmm, confusing.
Alfred and Catherine Ferguson are at RG11 329 14 23 in 1881
Thomas Richey is not with them then, though
The 1881 yields useful further relatives - a sister for Catherine (Helen HOLLINGWORTH b abt 1860 London) and an aunt Catherine HOLLINGWORTH, unm, b abt 1826 Southampton).
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Sadly, not very much.....my sister in law ran some basic searches for Thomas Richey and Catherine Ferguson (brother and sister and our starting point) and found the only instances to be in Durham. She then matched a Robert Richey (their gathers name) in Durham too. Could be entirely coincidental.
Her research was very basic and nowhere as in depth as the wonderful details that everyone has helped me discover today.
:)
There is still a nagging possibility he had Durham connections.
Can you enlarge on this, please?
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1861
RG9 179 108 11
Portugal Street, St Clements Dane (near the Strand)
Thomas Hollingsworth 34 bookbinder bn Southampton
Isabella 33 bn London
Emily 7
Katherine 5
Helen 1 all bn London
looks like the girls!
now we need to see why brother has surname Richey ....
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Possibly Isabella dies ... no guarantees it is her
Death
Oct/Nov/Dec 1866
Holborn 1b 406
Isabella Hollingsworth age 41
I just wish I could find some or any of them in 1871
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Simply awesome stuff!!!
Yes, the Richey thing is bizarre, as it is absolutely the correct family.
Thomas Richey names Robert Richie (actor) as his father on 1914 army papers, and Catherine Ferguson ( almost certainly nee Hollingsworth) as his sister.
We know he resided with her when she was a married woman.
Yet Katherines father is listed from a very early stage as Thomas Hollingsworth (per 1861 census)
An Isabella and Thomas Hollingsworth marriage certificate may help.
Perhaps Thomas Richey was 'taken in' by the Hollingsworths,
1861
RG9 179 108 11
Portugal Street, St Clements Dane (near the Strand)
Thomas Hollingsworth 34 bookbinder bn Southampton
Isabella 33 bn London
Emily 7
Katherine 5
Helen 1 all bn London
looks like the girls!
now we need to see why brother has surname Richey ....
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Possible marriage for Thomas and Isabel[la]:
Marriage Dec qtr 1852
Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH
Isabel TAYLOR
Holborn 1b 602
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Maybe Isabella left Thomas and had an affair with Robert Richey.
Maybe Thomas Richey just made up a father because for some reason he didnt get on with his real father.
It is still a mystery.
I wish we could locate any of them in 1871 to try and piece together what may have happened.
Or a Birth reg for Thomas (either Richey or Hollingsworth)
At some stage you will have to but some certs to back up any theories.
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I think this is Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH before his marriage (has a sister Catherine whom we later see in 1881 as Cath. FERGUSON's aunt):
1851 census: HO107/1496/299/51
44 Seymour St, St Pancras, Middlesex
Cathn HOLLINGSWORTH Head Widow 45 Hants Southampton
Elizh do Daur Unm 25 Teacher of music Hants Portsmouth
Cathn do Daur Unm 24 Teacher of music Hants Southampton
Thos R. do Son Unm 23 Teacher of music Hants Southampton
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Christenings:
21 Aug 1853 St George Bllomsbury
Emily Sarah Louisa Hollingsworth
15 Jun 1856
St Andrews Holborn
Katherine Elizabeth Hollingsworth
parents on bothoccasions
Thomas Robert Hollingsworth and Isaballa Matilda Hollingsworth
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Thomas HOLLINGWORTH (this spelling), 54 b Hampshire, is an actor in 1881 lodging in Newcastle with a Durham-born MORRISON family: RG11/5059/131/25.
He's enumerated as married.
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If as seems very possible Isabella dies in Holborn late 1866, perhaps in childbirth with Thomas Richey.
Perhaps Thomas Hollingsworth ran off & left Isabella with the (girls) children, and she then had a relationship with Robert Richey which produced her son Thomas Richey.
Still some slight confusion over Thomas Richey DOB though, if he is accurate that he was born in 1868 (per his 1914 war papers showing him to be 46), and Isabella dies die in 1866 we have a concern.
In the 1891 census (living with the Fergusons on the Strand) he is recorded as 25 (making an 1866 birth- ). Oddly, his miltary records have him in Malta in 1891 - perhaps the Fergusons listed him on the Census in absentia.
Maybe Isabella left Thomas and had an affair with Robert Richey.
Maybe Thomas Richey just made up a father because for some reason he didnt get on with his real father.
It is still a mystery.
I wish we could locate any of them in 1871 to try and piece together what may have happened.
Or a Birth reg for Thomas (either Richey or Hollingsworth)
At some stage you will have to but some certs to back up any theories.
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If as seems very possible Isabella dies in Holborn late 1866, perhaps in childbirth with Thomas Richey.
Perhaps Thomas Hollingsworth ran off & left Isabella with the (girls) children, and she then had a relationship with Robert Richey which produced her son Thomas Richey.
There's no suitable birth registration at the right time/place to suggest that Isabella died as a result of giving birth to a live-born child.
Have you considered the possibility that Thomas HOLLINGWORTH (an actor in 1881) and Robert RICHEY are one and the same person - the latter possibly being a stage name for the former? Bear in mind that Thomas had a middle initial R in 1851 and a middle name Robert upon the baptism of two of his daughters (see above).
Since Thomas is "married" in the 1881 census, Thomas RICHEY the son might be a product of a relationship entered into by Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH after Isabella's death. He'd still be a half-brother to Catherine, Helen etc.
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Excellent idea....
In 1851 Thos Hollingsworth was a music teacher, aged 23 from Hants (census)
In 1881 Thos Hollingworth is an actor , aged 54 from Hants (census)
The assumed DOB's match, and music teacher to actor is a reasonable match.
He gets married in 1852 to Isabella and they have 3 girls, prior to Isabella dying (we are sure confident that's her?) in late 1866.
there's no record of them in the 1871 census???
He then appears again in Durham in 1881 census with another son Thomas Richey born 1866-1868, potentially as the result of a relationship after Isabellas death.
It is feasible to me, absolutely.
Additionally, Thomas Richey lists Robert Richey as his father in 1914, well...
Thomas 'Robert' Hollingsworth.
Perhaps Thomas went by the name Robert thru preference and simply added the stage name Richey.
Thomas Richeys oldest son (my Grandmothers brother) was born in 1915 and named ROBERT RICHEY also!
If as seems very possible Isabella dies in Holborn late 1866, perhaps in childbirth with Thomas Richey.
Perhaps Thomas Hollingsworth ran off & left Isabella with the (girls) children, and she then had a relationship with Robert Richey which produced her son Thomas Richey.
There's no suitable birth registration at the right time/place to suggest that Isabella died as a result of giving birth to a live-born child.
Have you considered the possibility that Thomas HOLLINGWORTH (an actor in 1881) and Robert RICHEY are one and the same person - the latter possibly being a stage name for the former? Bear in mind that Thomas had a middle initial R in 1851 and a middle name Robert upon the baptism of two of his daughters (see above).
Since Thomas is "married" in the 1881 census, Thomas RICHEY the son might be a product of a relationship entered into by Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH after Isabella's death. He'd still be a half-brother to Catherine, Helen etc.
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At this stage it appears very likely that Thomas Richey and Katherine Ferguson (nee Hollingsworth) listed as brother and sister on 1914 military forms are indeed HALF siblings.
a) Katherines mother Isabella dies in 1866 and her Father (Thomas Hollingsworth) fathers a son Thomas Richey.
b) Thomas Richey is the produce of Isabella having a relationship with a' Robert Richey'.
c) Thomas Richey was 'taken in' by the Hollingsworths, but then why would he later list 'Thomas Richey' as his father...I'm not sure about this theory anymore.
With the death of an Isabella Hollingsworth in 1866 I like option a better.
problem: Isabella possibly dies in 1866 aged 41, yet is listed on 1861 census as being only 33?????
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At this stage it appears very likely that Thomas Richey and Katherine Ferguson (nee Hollingsworth) listed as brother and sister on 1914 military forms are indeed HALF siblings.
a) Katherines mother Isabella dies in 1866 and her Father (Thomas Hollingsworth) fathers a son Thomas Richey.
b) Thomas Richey is the produce of Isabella having a relationship with a' Robert Richey'.
With the death of an Isabella Hollingsworth in 1866 I like option a better.
problem: Isabella possibly dies in 1866 aged 41, yet is listed on 1861 census as being only 33?????
We do not know this death is 'our isabella' - it is just something to consider.
Getting the death cert might help, to see who the informant was. That might rule it in or out as being her.
There is a difference in age, but an age given at death is only as relaible as the knowledge of the informant!
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I was just mulling over the christenings of illegitimate Thomases, just in case the Thomas k/a Robert Holl'wth k/a Richey having an affair scenario is the right one!
both St Giles Bloomsbury Workhouse births-
Thomas Syms born 17 Aug 1868
mum Hannah Syms
Thomas Fielder born 1 Dec 1869
mum Alice Fielder
No reason to think either of these is him, but you never know. He didnt seem to be registered under Richey or Hollingsworth, so maybe it was under his Mothers name, if indeed she was someone else that we havent found yet!
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Thanks for the last 2 posts Liz.....the plot thickens.
Here is what I have for the 'acting' link.
In 1915 Thomas Richey lists his father as 'Robert Richey, actor, deceased'
The entire generation are from the Holborn, Strand , Theatreland area of London.
In Dec 1914 Thomas Richey (son of Thomas Hollingsworth) gives his addr as 16, Maiden Lane which backs onto the Adelphi Theatre on the Strand. Next door at #18 was the lodgings for Adelphi actors.
In 1891 census Katherine Ferguson (nee Hollingsworth) & family plus Thomas Richey are residing at 418 The Strand, which is next door to .....the Adelphi Theatre!
The list of Adelphi actors shown in the wonderful1806-1900 research project (http://www.emich.edu/public/english/adelphi_calendar/perfactr.htm)
shows a 'Hollingsworth' performer in 1835?
Thomas Hollingsworth Mother was 29 in 1835, I assume her father was similarly aged. A connection, perhaps?
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Possible new lead: 1891 census shows Tom HOLLINGSWORTH, 64, tie maker, b Southampton, living at 4 Hermes St, Clerkenwell (parish of St Silas, Pentonville) with wife Mary (40 b London) and 7 children aged 1-20. Ref is RG12/226/121/46.
The eldest of the children in the 1891 household is Bertha, 20 b Clerkenwell.
Bertha HOLLINGSWORTH aged "22" married later that year - 24 Oct 1891 - to Arthur Horace BOLT, at St Silas Pentonville. Address for both given as 4 Hermes St. Bertha's father was described as Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, a book binder (matching "our" Thomas' occupation in 1851).
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Aaaagh!
1881 census: RG11/352/8/10
28 Northampton Rd, Clerkenwell
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH Head Mar 53 Actor Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife Mar 24 M'sex Limehouse
B do Daur Unm 12 Scholar M'sex Oxford Passage
E do Son Unm 5 Essex Walthamstow
C do Daur Unm 11 M'sex Drury Lane
W do Son Unm 8 days M'sex Clerkenwell
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Well, the dates certainly match, as does his age from other census records you all have kindly referred to.
He could well have been in Durham in 1881, as previously considered and back to London for 1891.
the link to Bertha is great...... it would seem he remarried (Mary) and began a new family (starting with Bertha in 1871) after Isabella dies in 1866,...is that how you see it?
Many thanks :)
Possible new lead: 1891 census shows Tom HOLLINGSWORTH, 64, tie maker, b Southampton, living at 4 Hermes St, Clerkenwell (parish of St Silas, Pentonville) with wife Mary (40 b London) and 7 children aged 1-20. Ref is RG12/226/121/46.
The eldest of the children in the 1891 household is Bertha, 20 b Clerkenwell.
Bertha HOLLINGSWORTH aged "22" married later that year - 24 Oct 1891 - to Arthur Horace BOLT, at St Silas Pentonville. Address for both given as 4 Hermes St. Bertha's father was described as Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, a book binder (matching "our" Thomas' occupation in 1851).
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it would seem he remarried (Mary) and began a new family (starting with Bertha in 1871) after Isabella dies in 1866,...is that how you see it?
Something like that! Marriage to Mary not yet found, and she is strangely inconsistent about her age.
Bertha's likely birth is Jun qtr 1870 as Bertha Selina W HOLLINGSWORTH
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This one totally confuses me..... ??? wife 24, daughter 12?
Did we take a wrong turn?
Thanks for your patience!
Aaaagh!
1881 census: RG11/352/8/10
28 Northampton Rd, Clerkenwell
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH Head Mar 53 Actor Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife Mar 24 M'sex Limehouse
B do Daur Unm 12 Scholar M'sex Oxford Passage
E do Son Unm 5 Essex Walthamstow
C do Daur Unm 11 M'sex Drury Lane
W do Son Unm 8 days M'sex Clerkenwell
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1901 census: RG13/251/177/60
4 Hermes St, Clerkenwell
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH Head M 61 Tie maker Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife M 42 Yorks Middlesbrough
Cecilia do Daur 20 Tie finisher London Clerkenwell
Richard do Son 20 Horsekeeper London Clerkenwell
Frederick do Son 18 Bricklayer labourer London Clerkenwell
Florence do Daur 14 London Clerkenwell
Alfred do Son 11 London Clerkenwell
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The 1881 def. says 24 for Mary's age, but either it is just an error or Thomas/Robert has had more than one lady companion after Isabella!. Also it appears Thomas/Robert was enumerated twice in 1881 (up in Newcastle and down in London). Hmmm...
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All along everything shows Robert Hollingsworth to be born around 1827, which would make him 74 ish in 1901, but he is shown as 61.......
The tie maker from Southampton gives all these listings huge credibility, just a bit of age variance...
as for the children, well, I am still jotting them all down! ;D
You have been such a wonderful asset to me today, as have others, and I am continually grateful for all that you are doing for me!
The 1881 def. says 24 for Mary's age, but it must just be an error. Also it appears Thomas/Robert was enumerated twice in 1881 (up in Newcastle and down in London). Hmmm...
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Hi all.....
leave for a few hours and it goes MAD!...
Do you have alfred Hollingsworth marriage 4 July 1915 St Anne Limehouse
Alfred Hollingsworth bach28 labourer father Robert actor
Florence Emma Marshall spin 22 .
Tazzie
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Welcome back Tazzie....and thank you!...I have merrily added Alfreds wedding to the wonderfully every increasing list!
Hi all.....
leave for a few hours and it goes MAD!...
Do you have alfred Hollingsworth marriage 4 July 1915 St Anne Limehouse
Alfred Hollingsworth bach28 labourer father Robert actor
Florence Emma Marshall spin 22 .
Tazzie
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For your list, the full complement of the 1891 children was as follows (in descending order of age):
Bertha 20
Edward 15 b Essex
Mary 11
Richard 10 (prob. same child as W aged 8 days in 1881)
Frederick 9
Florence 4
Alfred 1
all b Clerkenwell except Edward.
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On 1 July 1906 Cecilia HOLLINGSWORTH (26) married Francis James BRINE at St James Pentonville, Clerkenwell.
Cecilia's address was given as 32 Hermes St. Her father was Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, a book-binder.
NB Given Cecilia's age at marriage and in the 1901 census, I believe the 1881 census entry for daughter "C" Hollingsworth as aged 11 is likely to be an incorrect entry for this child. Perhaps it should say either 1 or 11 months?
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The age and birthplace differences for Mary are also a little strange.
We are sure she (or 'a' Mary) had Bertha in summer 1870
in 1881 Mary shows at 24
in 1891 Mary is listed as 40
In 1901 she is listed as 42 by which time Bertha is 31!
For your list, the full complement of the 1891 children was as follows (in descending order of age):
Bertha 20
Edward 15 b Essex
Mary 11
Richard 10 (prob. same child as W aged 8 days in 1881)
Frederick 9
Florence 4
Alfred 1
all b Clerkenwell except Edward.
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Yes, Mary is all over the place, to say the least. In 1901 she suddenly decided she was born in Middlesbrough! I haven't yet given her enough thought to decide whether there is likely to be more than one Mary, or whether it's all the same person and the census entries are just chaotic ;)
NB We don't actually know who Bertha's mother was - only her birth cert can tell you that. There's quite a gap between her birth and that of the next know child, Edward b abt 1876 Walthamstow.
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So it seems almost certain that Thomas Hollingsworth had
3 daughters with Isabella until 1860
no more issue from 1860-1866 when Isabella dies
Remarries with Mary (not sure when)
issue 7 children up to between 1870 and 1891.
The 1860-1866 gap is noticeable as a year period without him fathering a child is huge when viewed against the rest of his life.
And somewhere in the 1866-1868 period he acquires Thomas Richey?
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Details for son Edward:
Birth: Edward Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH Jun 1876 West Ham 4a 130
Marriage #1 to Theresa Beatrice COLE, 28 Aug 1904, St Thomas Clapton Common, his father Robert Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, bookbinder
Marriage #2 to Florence Jane REMINGTON (bride & groom both widowed), 25 Dec 1911, St John Limehouse Fields, Tower Hamlets, his father Robert Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, (deceased), actor.
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3 children with Isabella before her death in 1866
'Acquires' Thomas Richey (born Holborn 1866-1868 period)
Bertha born in 1870
more children afterwards
I am now assuming that after isabellas death, Thomas Hollingsworth (then a widower) had a relationship with woman unknown (perhaps Ms.Richey) that produced Thomas Richey.
The fact Thomas Richey does not appear any census until 1891 (living with sister Katherine Ferguson in Strand) makes me think he stayed with his mother?
he doesn't appear anywhere on the 1881 census even though he's have been 13-15 years old
He certainly does NOT appear alongside his father Thomas Hollingsworth on any census even as a child which is bizarre. i really don't get it.
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Going back to Thomas and Isabel[la], a marriage:
7 Nov 1852, Holy Trinity, Gray's Inn Road
Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH 25 Bachelor, Dramatic artist, son of Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, Dramatic artist
and
Isabel TAYLOR 24 Spinster, daughter of James TAYLOR, bookseller
both of Dyers' Buildings, Holborn
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3 children with Isabella before her death in 1866
'Acquires' Thomas Richey (born Holborn 1866-1868 period)
Bertha born in 1870
more children afterwards
I am now assuming that after isabellas death, Thomas Hollingsworth (then a widower) had a relationship with woman unknown (perhaps Ms.Richey) that produced Thomas Richey.
The fact Thomas Richey does not appear any census until 1891 (living with sister Katherine Ferguson in Strand) makes me think he stayed with his mother?
he doesn't appear anywhere on the 1881 census even though he's have been 13-15 years old
He certainly does NOT appear alongside his father Thomas Hollingsworth on any census even as a child which is bizarre. i really don't get it.
If only any of them could be found in 1871... ;)
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Wow! Even more detailed info....superb! thanks again for all of your work!
It was would interesting to see if we could locate the odd one out of Thomas Hollingsworths 11 children.
Any birth or death cert for Thomas Richey as all we know is he was born 1866-1868 in Holborn, yet no certificates for him can be found anywhere?
Per her military files I know he was overseas with the Army 1883-1895, but there is no prior record of him existing.
...it is baffling me and he is my Grandmother Father...just my luck.
Going back to Thomas and Isabel[la], a marriage:
7 Nov 1852, Holy Trinity, Gray's Inn Road
Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH 25 Bachelor, Dramatic artist, son of Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, Dramatic artist
and
Isabel TAYLOR 24 Spinster, daughter of James TAYLOR, bookseller
both of Dyers' Buildings, Holborn
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Valuable update!
THOMAS RICHEY died in Brighton, Sussex between 1932 and 1937.
this is per his daughter (my Grandmother)
the dates are know as his last child was born in 1932, and my Grandmother moved to London in 1937 and said her father (Thomas Richey) was already deceased at that time.
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Here you go:
Death Dec qtr 1938
Thomas R. RICHEY aged 73
Brighton 2b 344
:)
(Perhaps your grandmother's recollection was a year or so out? There aren't any other suitable deaths).
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Wonderful! thanks!
I've been thinking most of the evening and this morning about HOW Thomas Richey fits into the Thomas Hollingsworth son question.
I think he HAS to be an illegitimate son for sure (between the death of 1st wife Isabella and his 2nd marriage to Mary) , but no record of his birth still confuses me, as does the 1871 omission of the family.
Thanks again to you and Liz etc that helped yesterday.
I don't wish to outstay my welcome, but I am keen to keep searching as long as you are ;D
Here you go:
Death Dec qtr 1938
Thomas R. RICHEY aged 73
Brighton 2b 344
:)
(Perhaps your grandmother's recollection was a year or so out? There aren't any other suitable deaths).
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Mary HOLLINGSWORTH was at 33 Hermes St with unmarried son Frederick (plus a lodger). Mary was widowed. She wrongly (but helpfully) filled out the section on length of marriage and children, which widows didn't need to complete. The information given was as follows:
36 completed years of marriage
8 children, of whom 6 still living and 2 deceased.
Ok, my sister in law found this out. Another useful piece.
Looks like Bertha (1871) WAS hers, and was born very soon after the mysterious Thomas Richey (probably 1866, maybe 1877/8 depending of what census we believe for accuracy) who was not hers.
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I'm going to throw in a complete wild card about Thomas RICHEY, which may turn out to be absolutely unconnected but we have run out of leads for London-born candidates for him at the moment. I bear in mind the odd clues pointing to the North-East: the mysterious "Durham connection" and the mention of Middlesbrough in Mary HOLLINGSWORTH's 1901 census entry (tenuous I know).
So, what happened after 1871 to the Thomas listed below? Can he be firmly ruled out as being the Thomas RICHEY we are looking for? (Obviously some major family upheaval would be required!)
1871 census: RG10/4890/15/23
Lower East St, Middlesbrough
Patrick RICHY Head Mar 30 Puddler Ireland
Mary do Wife Mar 30 Ireland
Francis do Son 10 Scholar York Middlesbro'
Thomas do Son 5 Scholar York Middlesbro'
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Positives:
The name 'Richy'
Thomas aged 5 in 1871, giving him a likely 1866 DOB, which fits exactly with our Thomas Richey
The mysterious link to Mary of Middleboro (does this age match her 1901 census London age?- EDIT- doesn't seem to fit. 'Mary' age in 1901 is given as 42, 'this' mary is given as 30 in 1871...sadly), remember your idea that maybe TWO Marys? perhaps he brought Mary of Middlesboro and the Thomas Richy to London with him? Long shot!
He was lodging in 1881 in Durham (close kind of) with the 'Morrisons'. I know this hasn't been proven, but I think the age, profession and place of birth as Hampshire are 3 super strong factors for a city hundreds of miles away. Not many men in Durham that fitted that criteria in 1881 I don't think.
Is there any reason to think that Thomas Rich(e)y from whatever location, can NOT have been a boy 'taken in' by Thomas Hollingsworth? I mean like an orphan etc. it could explain his retaining the last name.
As you say, it may be easier to try and disproof this young Thomas Richy from M/Boro than it would be to justify him??
I'm going to throw in a complete wild card about Thomas RICHEY, which may turn out to be absolutely unconnected but we have run out of leads for London-born candidates for him at the moment. I bear in mind the odd clues pointing to the North-East: the mysterious "Durham connection" and the mention of Middlesbrough in Mary HOLLINGSWORTH's 1901 census entry (tenuous I know).
So, what happened after 1871 to the Thomas listed below? Can he be firmly ruled out as being the Thomas RICHEY we are looking for? (Obviously some major family upheaval would be required!)
1871 census: RG10/4890/15/23
Lower East St, Middlesbrough
Patrick RICHY Head Mar 30 Puddler Ireland
Mary do Wife Mar 30 Ireland
Francis do Son 10 Scholar York Middlesbro'
Thomas do Son 5 Scholar York Middlesbro'
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Children "taken in" in what we now call adoption (the modern formalities didn't exist then) did often keep their birth names in the 19th century.
Mary is still a matter of great confusion, as the 1911 census information which you have (36 yrs married, though presumably this ended with the date of Robert/Thomas' death which hasn't yet been found) suggests that the 1881, 1891, 1901 and 1911 Marys must all be the same person. If so, she was certainly very erratic about her personal information.
I'm pretty confident (for what that's worth) that the chap with the MORRISONS in 1881 is the right one, even though that means he was double-counted as he was enumerated in London at the same time.
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Yes we agree on the 'Morrisons' link.
The Ireland thing got me thinking. Again, long shot, but what if Thomas Richey was born in Ireland, that could explain why we dont have any birth record of him in 1866, and why there's no 1871 record of the Thomas Hollingsworth family. perhaps they were all abroad?
No factual basis here, just trying to think creatively :)
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Wow
Just popping in to say 'hi' and to catch up!
'Twill take me all week to catch up I think, so much has happened!
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Trying to eliminate (or otherwise) the Thomas RICHY who was in Middlesbrough (then in Stockton RD) as a son of Patrick and Mary in 1871.
I think this may be the marriage of his parents, therefore postdating the births of both Thomas (5 in 1871) and his brother Francis (10 in 1871):
Marriage Dec qtr 1868
Patrick RITCHIE
Mary McDONNELL
on same page, Stockton 10a 142 (NB there is a bride missing from the FreeBMD index so if she is another Mary she could be Patrick's bride).
Possible birth for son Thomas fitting this scenario:
Birth Sep qtr 1866
Thomas MCDONNELL
Stockton 10a 61
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Death, Mar qtr 1878
Patrick RITCHIE aged 38
Middlesbrough 9d 354
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Possible sighting of widowed Mary & son Thomas in 1881:
1881 census: RG11/4886/85/37
10 Union Cottages, Middlesbrough
Mary RICHEY Head Widow 40 Cumberland
Thomas do Son 14 Scholar Middlesbrough
Thomas GIBSON Lodger Mar 42 Labourer Ireland
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Good morning Liz and AVM! :)
I spent yesterday tracing back my Fathers side of the family with the help of a wonderful lady on this site. I truly have the genealogy bug now!
The M'Boro angle is becoming more feasible as we proceed. It brings some questions, but also some increasingly potential answers.
the dates certainly match up very nicely and the nagging Mary from Middlesboro question mark from earlier add to the intrigue.
Just re-read this and the phrase... 'nagging Mary from Middleboro' seems to do her an unintentional disservice ;D
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I am reviewing these posts and determining which/if any certificate purchases would reasonably proof/discount anyone.
I am doing the same on my Wells/Dent thread that is running concurrently.
This genealogy is fascinating, truly like a big jigsaw or great book where you just can't wait to turn he next page! I'll be like a young boy on his Birthday waiting on the doorstep when the mailman delivers the certificates! Just like in yesteryear!
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I think a key gap in the evidence is the 1871 position; in the 1871 census not one of the HOLLINGSWORTH family has been traced. You may wish to consider purchasing Bertha's 1870 birth certificate, which would identify her mother's maiden name and also provide an address in 1870 which might (or might not) help trace the family in 1871.
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Ok, I shall purchase the Berta birth cert.
I know she was born circa 1870, in the frenzy i have forgotten if we have anything more specific on her DOB to make the purchase of her birth cert easier
It is odd that that NONE of the family appear in 1871, potential acting trip to Ireland/Scotland for example? Thomas 1st wife (Isabella) has not long passed away.
In 1881 we have very likely sightings of Thomas Hollingsworth (actor, right age and place of birth) in Newcastle lodging with Morrisons and in Clerkenwell, London with new wife Mary and the 1st 4 of their batch of children.
At that stage young Thomas Richey would be 13-15 range and yet is not listed with his father which i find interesting - unless as you say young Thomas Richey was living in M'Boro with his mother!!! Makes perfect sense :)
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Bertha's likely birth is Jun qtr 1870 as Bertha Selina W HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn 1b 596
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does the Thomas Richey (interesting that his mother Mary has gone from Ritichie to Richy to Richey) in Middlesboro have any strength after the 1881 report of living in Union Cottages with Mum Mary and her 'lodger' Gibson? ???
Thanks
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How about this - someone on Anc***** has this person in their public tree:
Bertha Selina Walker HOLLINGSWORTH
b 21 Mar 1870, d (as BOLT) 18 Mar 1939 Holloway
daughter of
Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH
b 21 Jan 1827 Southampton
d 22 Nov 1907 Shoreditch
and
Sarah Eliza SMITH
b Sep 1856 London ???
[Another public tree has similar information, plus more for Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH - his parents and grandparents, plus the info that his death was in Holborn workhouse].
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Woo hoo! excellent work! I am holding onto my hat, cos we are going on another journey here!
You had previously raised the idea that maybe Bertha wasn't Mary's daughter (though we later found Mary listed her as one of the 8, you idea could still be valid if Mary classed Bertha as her own upon marriage to Thomas H)
If, and it's a long shot, Bertha is the produce of Smith, then could Thomas Richey also be? he was born a couple of years prior to Bertha.
EDIT: Sadly......Sarah Eliza Smith is only 10-12 years older than Thomas Richey would be
This link to the other family tree COULD be a goldmine, someone is obviously interested enough to create a family tree is a very good sign :)
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Oh my goodness - I think they're all SMITH in 1871:
1871 census: RG10/379/40/73
12 Crawford Passage, Clerkenwell
Robert SMITH Head Mar 44 Bookbinder Hants Southampton
Eliza do Wife Mar 35 Middlesex Shoreditch
Emily do Daur Unm [age illegible] Bookfolder Middx London
Kate do Daur Unm 15 Middx Holborn
Eliza do Daur Unm 14 Middx Strand
Alice do Daur Unm 12 Middx Strand
Ellen do Daur 10 Middx Strand
Robert do Son 6 Middx Holborn
Bertha do Daur 1 Middx Holborn
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re: the two family trees you found on another site.
The one showing Thomas Hollingsworth d. 1907 Shoreditch could be very valuable, as we know he DID die between his son Edwards 1st marriage in 1904 and his 2nd marriage in 1911.....Edward was born in West Ham and the marriages were in East London, namely...Clapton and Tower Hamlets.
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Oh my goodness - I think they're all SMITH in 1871:
I just cant keep up
Hollingsworth/Richey/Smith ....
how many names does this man have?
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re: the two family trees you found on another site.
The one showing Thomas Hollingsworth d. 1907 Shoreditch could be very valuable, as we know he DID die between his son Edwards 1st marriage in 1904 and his 2nd marriage in 1911.....Edward was born in West Ham and the marriages were in East London, namely...Clapton and Tower Hamlets.
Death, Dec qtr 1907
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH aged 67 ??? [age doesn't fit - perhaps error in index? Or the workhouse didn't know his true age?]
Shoreditch 1c 56
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Aha a death for him
I wonder if he left a will, that might mention his varous offspring by the various wives/ladies under their various names .... maybe
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1881 - Northampton Road - Clerkenwell
1891 and 1901, 4, Hermes Street, Clerkenwell
the 1871 connection to Crawford Passage, Clerkenwell fits!
I am mentally crunching the names of the kids as 'Smith' in 1871 and trying to compare to later confirmed details we have! How many, if any, match up?
Robert Smith aged 6 in 1871 fits perfectly with believed year of birth for Thomas Richey!
This is fascinating!...I agree Liz....the man is a charlatan! ;D
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1881 - Northampton Road - Clerkenwell
1891 and 1901, 4, Hermes Street, Clerkenwell
the 1871 connection to Crawford Passage, Clerkenwell fits!
I am mentally crunching the names of the kids as 'Smith' in 1871 and trying to compare to later confirmed details we have! How many, if any, match up?
Three of the older girls (Emily, Katherine/Kate, Ellen/Helen) match up satisfactorily with the family he had with Isabella per 1861 census.
Sandwiched between them are Eliza and Alice. Perhaps (1) Eliza (snr) had them in a previous relationship, or (2) they're Isabella's daughters but were elsewhere on 1861 census night, or (3) Thomas/Robt had them with Eliza whilst he was married to Isabella???
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All 3 of your options are very plausible!
I really don't know WHAT to make of this, my head is spinning now trying to equate it all.
So , he could have married Eliza as his 2nd wife...pushing Mary (who shows up in 1881 census) to the #3 wife spot on the list.
Why would he assume the name Smith?
At least our Thomas ( Richey) is back on the radar
I need a coffee or a beer, and as it's a Monday morning here, I'm going with an expresso!
This is bizarre, but absolutely fascinating!
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Robert Smith aged 6 in 1871 fits perfectly with believed year of birth for Thomas Richey!
Could this be him in 1881?
Vessels: Impregnable
[In a long list]
R. HOLLINGSWORTH Boy 2nd cl. Unm 16 St Giles M'sex
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So , he could have married (Sarah) Eliza as his 2nd wife...pushing Mary (who shows up in 1881 census) to the #3 wife spot on the list.
Mary said in 1911 she'd been married 36 years. Assuming she counted this so that it ended with Thos/Robt's death in 1907, that puts a marriage to Mary (if there really was one) at about 1871. So perhaps Sarah Eliza disappears from the scene after the 1871 census?
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1861
RG9 180 45 35
1 Chain Court, St Clemets Dane
Robert Smith 34 Printers somethnig bn Southampton
Eliza 25 bn Westminser
ELiza 4 bn Westm.
Alice 2 bn Westm.
Havent we already found him in 1861 though?
Do you think he had several families in different names in different places concurrantly? They all filled him in on the census as head of the house, even if he wasnt actually with them on census night, but was with another 'wife' and family and had told them some story .....
modified to add - yes we have found him as Hollingsworth with wife Isabella and the other children (Emily,Kate, Helen) see reply #20
Maybe he was flitting between these families, one as Thomas H and one as Robert S ....
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1861
RG9 180 45 35
1 Chain Court, St Clemets Dane
Robert Smith 34 Printers somethnig bn Southampton
Eliza 25 bn Westminser
ELiza 4 bn Westm.
Alice 2 bn Westm.
Havent we already found him in 1861 though?
Do you think he had several families in different names in different places concurrantly? They all filled him in on the census as head of the house, even if he wasnt actually with them on census night, but was with another 'wife' and family and had told them some story .....
Yikes! Yes, the family with Isabella was in Portugal St, St Clement Danes in 1861 (he as Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, 34 bookbinder b Southampton). I wonder how far that is from 1 Chain Court?
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I really looks as if he had two families - one where he was Robert Smith and one where he was Thomas Hollingsworth, and maybe he flitted between the two.
I wonder if they knew about each other? They did by 1871 if all the children were together ..... well at least the children did.
Then he adds Mary to the equation later ....
possibly taking on her son Thomas as a stepson, who calls him his father when he later marries.
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I really looks as if he had two families - one where he was Robert Smith and one where he was Thomas Hollingsworth, and maybe he flitted between the two.
I wonder if they knew about each other? They did by 1871 if all the children were together .....
His lawful wife was dead by 1871 so I suppose the children had no choice but to blend with the "other family" :o
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Liz...I am inclined to believe your theory!
In 1861 we already have him at Portugal Street, Strand married to Isabella ???
AVM....... What is the ship 'Impregnable' , a HMS navy? thats a new twist as from military records I have Thomas (Richey/Smith/Hollingsworth) as serving in the Queens (West Surrey) Regiment from 1883-1895
St.Giles = Holborn, so that fits the 1891 census where his place of birth was given as Holborn when he lived with sister Katherine and the Fergusons.
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Then he adds Mary to the equation later ....
possibly taking on her son Thomas as a stepson, who calls him his father when he later marries.
I'm thinking at the moment that Thomas is more likely to have started life as the Robert SMITH we see in 1871. Mary's a bit all over the place about her age, but if one treats 1891 as a blip she seems (probably) too young to be Thomas/Robt RICHEY's mother.
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Sorry - I hadnt looked closely enough (to be honest I have lost the plot). I was rather thinking that Mary would be the same Mary who had been married to Patrick up north and had the son Thomas Richey ....
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Liz - I agree with Thomas Smith.
I am close to discounting Robert Hollinsworth (Smith) as being the same i.e stage name as the Robert Richey that Thomas lists as Father on his 1915 marriage cert.
I think maybe he gets the Richey (from his possible birth father Patrick Ritichie husband of Mary in Midleboro) and the Robert either from lack of accurate knowledge of his real dad (Patrick) and/or Robert Hollingsworth.
No wonder Tomas Hollingworth was an actor...he'd need to be with all these simultaneous families!
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In 1881 HMS Impregnable was a training ship based at Devonport, Pymouth, hence the huge numbers of boys shown on the 1881 list.
Our Thomas Richey age has varied by a couple of years (though nowhere NEAR the variance of his name :o ), so it could well be him just priory to joining the Army (Queens West Surreys) in 1883
Robert Smith aged 6 in 1871 fits perfectly with believed year of birth for Thomas Richey!
Could this be him in 1881?
Vessels: Impregnable
[In a long list]
R. HOLLINGSWORTH Boy 2nd cl. Unm 16 St Giles M'sex
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No history of a 'Chains Court' but there is a Grange Court which is running parallel to Portugal Street, connected by St Clements Lane... a 1 minute walk
St Clements Dane is the famous church which faces the Strand, and which backs onto a road right next to St Clements Lane...a 2 minute walk
Whichever way you look at it, the two address, each with a different wife, in 1861 are no more than a couple of hundred feet apart! Surely, that is TOO close for both families NOT to know about eachother. The wives & kids would've seen each other and Thomas Hollingsworth (Smith) on a daily basis.....no way he could've kept these unsuspecting families quiet from each other if these addresses are correct,....so
1) Did both families know each other and both wives were 'accepting' of the situation
or
2) Is there more 'smoke and mirrors' regarding Hollingsworth and Smith?
1861
RG9 180 45 35
1 Chain Court, St Clemets Dane
Robert Smith 34 Printers somethnig bn Southampton
Eliza 25 bn Westminser
ELiza 4 bn Westm.
Alice 2 bn Westm.
Havent we already found him in 1861 though?
Do you think he had several families in different names in different places concurrantly? They all filled him in on the census as head of the house, even if he wasnt actually with them on census night, but was with another 'wife' and family and had told them some story .....
Yikes! Yes, the family with Isabella was in Portugal St, St Clement Danes in 1861 (he as Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, 34 bookbinder b Southampton). I wonder how far that is from 1 Chain Court?
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So if we accept that our Thomas (Richey) is the son of Hollingsworth and Sarah Eliza Smith,.............in all likelihood we have to discount the entire Mary Ritchie and son from Middlesboro thing?
that would be a shame because we are then without a lead for the name 'Richey'
Correct?
:'(
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I was trying to get my mind round that too.
Our chap cant be both the Robert Smith age 6 in London with Robert and Eliza
AND the Thomas Richey age 5 in Middlesbro with Patrick and Mary
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I agree that the boy can't be both Robert SMITH in London and Thomas RICH[E]Y in Middlesbro' at the same time in 1871.
Middlesbro' chap has a number of things in his favour - name, age, dead father so family upheaval makes sense. BUT his mother Mary is way too old to be the same as the London Mary, and in any event both Marys are enumerated separately and at different ends of the country in 1881.
Which leaves the vital question - how on earth would Middlesbro' chap have come to be connected with the HOLLINGSWORTH family (and considered a brother of the HOLLINGSWORTH girls) between 1881 and 1891?
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.... but if he is the Smith one where did he get the surname Richey from by 1891?
What a mystery this one is!
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.... but if he is the Smith one where did he get the surname Richey from by 1891?
What a mystery this one is!
Ummm...went AWOL from the Impregnable and had to change his name?
I don't know! :o
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yes, unfortunately.
I am very excited about the Smith link....it brings many answers (i.e the entire family missing 1871 census, and a name for young Thomas)
On the other side of the coin, it wipes out our one connection to 'Richey' which is a shame, as Mary and Middlesboro connected by her own words on a London census and also her marriage etc with Patrick Ritchie)
Still, it is all very exciting!
Continued thanks to you and AVM for your wonderful assistance. :)
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I have his WW1 military records, which although created in 1914 shows his previous service with Queens West Surreys from 1883-1995 in India, Burma,Egypt, South Africa, Malta.
My sister in law is going to Kew Records office (soon) to obtain the actual military record for that period.
he was almost certainly using Richey by 1883 (unless the military record is incorrect)
.... but if he is the Smith one where did he get the surname Richey from by 1891?
What a mystery this one is!
Ummm...went AWOL from the Impregnable and had to change his name?
I don't know! :o
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Again, on the HMS Impregnable link, are there any other 'R.Hollingsworth' born Holborn/St.Giles around 1865?
If not, then that strengthens our suspicions, and the link.
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I am just looking at his records on Ancestry - but there are pages and pages and I need to be off, so will have to come back tomorrow to it.
However, first page when asked if he has served before in the Royal Navy he says 'yes' which does strenghen the links with the person on the ship (Smith? Hollinsworth? I forget .... ;D) and then "discharged date....which I am trying to make out!
Sorry to leave in the lurch!
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Again, on the HMS Impregnable link, are there any other 'R.Hollingsworth' born Holborn/St.Giles around 1865?
If not, then that strengthens our suspicions, and the link.
Can't easily see anyone else fitting this description in BMD or 1871 census. See what you think on www.freebmd.org.uk in case I've missed anyone.
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Absolutely, I check there....I was always told that site wasn't very accurate?
As we're looking for Thomas, should we be worried that R.Hollingsworth, not T. Hollingsworth on the ship.
Thanks :)
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on FreeBMD
I ran 1860-1870 births for R. Hollingsworth
- just 2 ladies from London in 1862 and 1869 - not of interest to us.
I ran 1860-1870 births for T. Hollingsworth
- Thomas Charles Hollingsworth b.Bethnal Green Dec 1865?
- Thomas J.A. Hollingsworth b.City of London June 1866?
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As we're looking for Thomas, should we be worried that R.Hollingsworth, not T. Hollingsworth on the ship.
My hypothesis is that R HOLLINGSWORTH (1881) and Robert SMITH (1871) may be one and the same. Whether they are then the same person as Thomas RICHEY (1891) is another question!
Thomas RICHEY was, for what it's worth, registered at death as Thomas R. RICHEY...
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- Thomas J.A. Hollingsworth b.City of London June 1866?
Likely death:
Dec qtr 1869
Thomas James A HOLLINGSWORTH aged 3, Stepney 1c 400
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Absolutely, I check there....I was always told that site wasn't very accurate?
As with any index there are errors, and it's a work in progress, but it's pretty very good for the 19th century now and it's the same index (up to 1915) used by Ancestry.
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Don't shoot the messenger...but, despite both looking like 1865 births,
could
R.Smith / R.Hollingsworth be the boy that goes into the Navy
AND
Thomas Richey (Ritchie) be the boy from Mary and Patrick in Middlesboro and who went on to join the army.
That would allow you Midlesboro link to stay viable.
As we're looking for Thomas, should we be worried that R.Hollingsworth, not T. Hollingsworth on the ship.
My hypothesis is that R HOLLINGSWORTH (1881) and Robert SMITH (1871) may be one and the same. Whether they are then the same person as Thomas RICHEY (1891) is another question!
Thomas RICHEY was, for what it's worth, registered at death as Thomas R. RICHEY...
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Yes, absolutely possible. I'm not in any hurry to abandon the Middlesbro' link to the only boy in the country with the right name/age combination!
Is there any living family member who might be able to expand on the so-called "Durham connection"? Any clue would be a good clue at this point.
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Glad we agree on the Middlesboro thing! personally, I still think thats the primary lead and that young Robert Smith/Hollingsworth is an interesting, but not critical, child of our Thomas Hollingsworth (aka Smith)
The 'Durham' connection is unlikely to help. It is a mix of ;
1) My sister in law doing a very basic search on freeBMD for Robert Richeys , I think...I'll check with her
2) My Fathers side (from Lancs) had a oral history to Durham, which in the past 48 hours (courtesy folks on this wonderful site) we have managed to confirm as factual!
What do you think about the Hollingsworth and Smith households being so close to each other in London 1871? I am strongly considering that the families knew about each other.....so close in location (less than 1/2 mile), they'd almost HAVE to run into each other.
I mean, maybe Eliza Smith and Isabel Hollingsworth both knew of the other relationship with Thomas Hollingsworth? ???
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I mean, maybe Eliza Smith and Isabel Hollingsworth both knew of the other relationship with Thomas Hollingsworth? ???
Maybe. Impossible to say, really!
Possible sighting of Alice (SMITH in 1861, 1871):
1881 census: RG11/1184/97/44
St Catherine's Home, Ventnor, IOW
Alice HOLLINGSWORTH Patient Unm 22 Bookfolder London
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There certainly seems to be a merging of the Smiths into the Hollingsworths.
I'm not saying Eliza and Isabella approved of each other necessarily (though I don't discount it in some very unusual 'bigamist' style), but i do think they very likely knew of each other simply because of the proximity of their homes...I just don't see how that sort of thing can be keep quiet 1/2 mile apart.
I would feel differently if one was in London and one in Kent for example.
at this stage, I'm not sure I'd put anything past Thomas Hollingsworth ::)
Even seeing birth registrations for the Smith children would ease my mind
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Liz - Are you referring to Thomas Richeys 1883 military service records from his stint with the Queens (Royal West Surrey) Regiment?
if so, WOW!
:o
Please don't apologize for having to leave, your help has been invaluable!
I am just looking at his records on Ancestry - but there are pages and pages and I need to be off, so will have to come back tomorrow to it.
However, first page when asked if he has served before in the Royal Navy he says 'yes' which does strenghen the links with the person on the ship (Smith? Hollinsworth? I forget .... ;D) and then "discharged date....which I am trying to make out!
Sorry to leave in the lurch!
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re: St Catherine's Home, Ventnor, IOW
I read up on this, because it seemed interesting.
Founded in 1879 with C of E support. It was a nursing home for people with respiratory illnesses.
her probable death is shown on FreeBMD. The age is off my 1 year, but nonetheless.
Deaths Mar 1882
HOLLINGSWORTH Alice E.M. 24 I.Wight 2b 445
Nice work finding Alice Hollingsworth (formerly Smith) there in 1881 'avm'!
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The Sarah Eliza Smith b.1856 listed matches up to be the daughter (Eliza) so that an error on the family tree, albeit an easy one to remedy.
Eliza the 'wife & mother' looks b.circa 1836
How about this - someone on Anc***** has this person in their public tree:
Bertha Selina Walker HOLLINGSWORTH
b 21 Mar 1870, d (as BOLT) 18 Mar 1939 Holloway
daughter of
Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH
b 21 Jan 1827 Southampton
d 22 Nov 1907 Shoreditch
and
Sarah Eliza SMITH
b Sep 1856 London ???
[Another public tree has similar information, plus more for Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH - his parents and grandparents, plus the info that his death was in Holborn workhouse].
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Liz - Are you referring to Thomas Richeys 1883 military service records from his stint with the Queens (Royal West Surrey) Regiment?
Its the WW1 records of Thomas Richey.
So far I see that he says 'yes' to have you served in the Royal Navy (links with the census finding on ship)
It is for Army Resevist (links with the census finding of the Thomas Richey with his sister)
and next of kin is stated as Catherine Ferguson (which we have found was nee Hollingsworth and incorporated with the Smiths at some times)
So (and I only have got up to page one) this guy seems very much to link all those together.
All it doesnt explain is why he used the surname Richey.
Says he was born Holborn. (Durham guy with father PAtrick looking less and less likely)
One other point - he seems to say age 42 in enlisting in 1941 - making a birth year of about 1872 not 1866, perhaps he just felt a bit old and wanted to appear younger.
Will report back any more findings of any significance as I read through.
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Ready to get a mental picture of our friend?
In 1914
Age 38 crossed out and changed to 42
Height 5'3"
Girth 40 inches
Weight 164 llbs
Blue eyes, grey hair
Tattoo on left wrist of cross and leaves
tattoo on right wrist of anchor
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Discharged 1919 - in order to re enlist with labour Corps
Address discharged to
62 Washington Street
Aslington Rd, Brighton
so that links up with the address you had in first post (that seems a long time ago now!)
So we have proof (I think we already knew this) that the Thomas Richey we are tracing is definitely brother (or half or step bro)to the the Hollingsworth girls, who were combined with the Smith family.
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Ooooh
Although passed fit for service on first form I saw, here is another one, from the Labour Corps, titled "Application for discharge of a recruit not likely to become an efficient soldier"
It is dated 9.9.14 and he is described as 42 yrs and 48 days old (so if correct we should be able to get an exact dob)
Height and weight as before
But
"this man suffers from rheumatism very badly and is too old to carry out the work required of him"
Strange as it seems he did remain doing something with the Queens throughout the war till discharged in 1919. Obviously not with the labour Corps though!
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Aha
Next form has religion on it and he says "RC" - Roman Catholic.
The Hollingsworth girls (or some of them) were christened in C of E church.
It is a conduct sheet - seems he was reprimanded twice, once for being absent from tattoo, and once for neglect of duty
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next form is to do with his pension after discharge.
Says date of birth 1868
Address 44 Washington Street Brighton
says he is myalgic (short sighted?)
(this is dated 1921)
And that was the last one
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The "RC" is definitely interesting - I wondered about his religion when looking at the Middlesbro' chap with an Irish father. Richey does seem to be an Irish name.
But I'm confused about the Royal Navy thing! These records were the first thing we started with at the beginning of the thread (that's how we got to the link with Catherine FERGUSON nee HOLLINGSWORTH) but I definitely didn't pick up on any question about Naval service. Can't get access at the moment...
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says he is myalgic (short sighted?)
The "myalgia" he suffers from is muscle pain.
(Short-sightedness is myopia ;))
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Whoops! So still his rheumatism then....
Just looking again at first page
Question says has he served in Army or navy and he says yes.
So you are right, it isnt necessarily Navy, but refers to his time as a Volunteer with the Queens?
Though I knew better by now than to see things that arent there .... :-[
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Thanks again Liz! Very interesting read.
Here's what I have from his WW1 military papers...obtained by a friend on a WW1 history site a while back.
he served previously in the Army 1883-1893 Queens (Royal West Surrey) Rgmt in India, Burma, Egypt, Malta and South Africa. withe the campaign medals listed for Burma twice, and Egypt.
Prior to re-enlisting in Dec 1917 he was in the volunteers (kinda territorial army) which was very common for veteran soldiers in those times.
he gave his age as 46.5 years old at sign up in Pimlico December 1914. he gave his home addr as 16, Maiden Lane, Strand, London WC2 and sister Catherine Ferguson as next of kin living on Exeter Street WC2.
I saw no record of the 38 or 42 years old? Interesting, you have additional papers.
I don't see that he returned to the Queens (West Surreys) I can see the different units he served with Fusiliers initially, before being moved to pretty quickly to the home based Royal Defence Corp. He didn't go overseas in teh 19140-1917 period.
I have the same discharge papers in 1917 and pension amounts etc going to Washington St, Brighton.
He was disciplined in 1916 for being absent and sentenced to 7 days jail.
He was previously reduced in rank in June 1915 (2 days after his wedding!) for allowing himself, the escort and the prisoner ( :o ) to be drunk!
I didn't see the papers with his physical description, so that is a huge bonus!
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You may have hit on something, I can't believe I didn't mention this.
My Nan - Clara King (nee Richey) (Thomas Richeys Daughter b.1920) is very religious and CATHOLIC!
All her siblings followed the same faith.
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The Catholic thing is intriguing indeed.
The only baptisms we have for children of Thomas/Robt HOLLINGSWORTH are C of E - and those are two of his daughters with Isabella.
No baptisms have been found for his children with Eliza or Mary. It is possible that Eliza and/or Mary were Catholic and hence the absence of C of E baptisms (though such absence is equally consistent with the children (a) not having been baptised, or (b) their having been baptised in C of E churches for which we don't have access to the registers).
But one still has to wonder about that Irish family in Middlesbrough...
Any red hair in the family? ;)
NB We didn't ever find a birth for the daughter Cecilia b abt 1880 who appears as Mary in 1891. Given the SMITH discovery I now wonder whether this one might be relevant?
Birth Sep qtr 1879
Mary Cecilia SMITH
Holborn 1b 745
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Several marriages of the HOLLINGSWORTH children have been traced to C of E churches. Where did Thomas RICHEY marry Emily WOOD?
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Bertha HOLLINGSWORTH and her husband Arthur Horace BOLT baptised at least two of their children at the C of E church of St Clement, City Road (1903 and 1904 respectively).
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We obtained the Thomas Richey/Emily Wood marriage cert from the Kingston records office.
the marriage took place in Surbiton, but it doesn't list a place (i.e Church).
the marriage took place in June 1915. Thomas Richey was aged 46 and Emily Irene Wood was aged 24! :o
their 1st child was (Robert T W Richey) was born late 1915 (Marylebone, London)
Uh huh,....I did the math on that too ::)
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I think the Mary Cecilia Smith 1879 Holborn birth details are a definite hit!
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the marriage took place in Surbiton, but it doesn't list a place (i.e Church).
Really? I've never seen such a thing. What does it say at the top, then?
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I am going to call my sister in law now. She is in London and has the actual marriage cert copy.
back in a few.
the marriage took place in Surbiton, but it doesn't list a place (i.e Church).
Really? I've never seen such a thing. What does it say at the top, then?
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Birth Sep qtr 1879
Mary Cecilia SMITH
Holborn 1b 745
Possible chr for her .... but for some reason I cant get the page with it on to magnify so I am struggling a bit.
St Thomas Charterhouse, Islington
chr 22 Aug 1880
birth 6 Aug 1879?
Mary Cecilia Smith
parents Thomas and Mary Elizabeth Smith
address 27 something (Finney?) Street Clerkenwell
occupation something polisher.
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occupation something polisher.
Silver polisher.
Doesn't really sound like our family, does it?
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Not 'silver polishers', not really, but Clerkenwell is prime Thomas Hollingsworth territory in his 188o's onwards phase (with mary)
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sadly, the Thomas Richey m. Emily Irene Wood marriage cert simply says...........
"marriage solemnized at the register office in the district of Kingston...."
look like no church wedding for the expectant bride. That may be due to lack of finances rather than lack of religion though?
My Nan and sisters were educated in a convent school in Brighton from 1920s onward
If Richey declares his religion as 'RC' prior to marrying in 1915 then the strong Catholic history is almost certainly from him (rather than Emily Wood)
I am going to call my sister in law now. She is in London and has the actual marriage cert copy.
back in a few.
the marriage took place in Surbiton, but it doesn't list a place (i.e Church).
Really? I've never seen such a thing. What does it say at the top, then?
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Hi
I see you are researching Cecilia Hollingsworth I think a friend of yours e mailed me on Ancestory.
My Hollingsworths came from Clerkenwell and my grt grandfather was Thomas.
If you get your contact to e mail me via ancestory i will open my tree for you as i don't normally use this website.
Regards
jan Hollingsworth- Lovett
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Hello Jan and a warm welcome - that was me who contacted you (I've just sent you a reply). This has turned into a very long thread but if you get a chance to read through you will see all the twists and turns taken so far!
Anna :)
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Jan - Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. We are almost certainly talking about the same Thomas Hollingsworth (b.Southampton) from Clerkenwell.
Anna, who along with others, has been fanatically supportive in my search, for Thomas Richey (and the Hollingsworths) and as she said we have made a plethora of amazing discoveries!
Kind regards
Darren
Anna - thank you, yet again! ;)
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Hi Darren
It would be great if you can give me any more info as i never knew about Thomas richey. I have opened my tree for Anna and i will send you copies of any info you want I;e passport of Thomas marriages ect. i also have a newspaper cutting regarding a suicide in a theatre that thoam witnessed.
Although Cecilia states that she was born in 1879 on her marriage i think she was born 10 before that as her husband was younger than her.Also My grt grandfather Had ny grandfather in 1876 (and thats another story as i found out he was a bigamist) and also Mary was born in 1880 and Richard after that. Maybe Thomas went off and had Thomas Richey in between 1876 and 1881 . DO YOU HAVE A BIRTH CERT OR THOMAS RICHEY. I look forward to hearing from you. I dont use this site at all so can i go through your friend Anna and if thats ok i will give her my e mail address..
I am so pleased i have found someone who is researching the same tree.
I look forward to hearing from you and Anna and i hope you find some interesting info from my tree.
Must dash as i am off out now i hope to hear from you tomorrow via anna on Ancestory. BYeeee.
Jan
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Jan, it's probably best if you communicate with Darren either by participating further in this thread (for which you will get e-mail notifications) or through Rootschat's personal messaging system (see little green scrolls beneath usernames in left hand margin - again you will get e-mail notifications) as I have (1) a very full-time job, (2) recent surgery to recover from, and (3) a temperamental computer. Much as I hope to see how things develop, and to assist if and when I can, I can't realistically be relied upon as a conduit going forward.
I'm delighted you're on board, I must say.
Anna :)
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Anna - i just PM'd you...you're a star!
Jan - I see your email addr, is it okay to email you directly?
We can discuss on here, but I wanted to regroup my data and email you what I have written down. That would be a great starting point where we can agree on details for certain people on the family tree and discuss others where there are conflicting dates or even omissions :)
Our mutual relative Mr. Hollingsworth was a very VERY colourful character, that is for sure :o
There is a mountain of info I need to collate, so it'll be a few hours time.
I am very happy we are in contact!
Thanks
Darren
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Jan, are you the grand-daughter of Edward (b.Walthamstow/West Ham 1876)? He is the only Hollingsworth son born that year, and your member name 'Beckton' is huge clue with it's proximity to West Ham.
I am going to gather my notes, and crunch the data and email you directly, so we have the groundwork laid. At that stage we can carry on via email or hopefully via this thread.
:)
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Hi Jan!
The following may be shocking to you, but I think there's more to Robert Hollingsworth than you know.
Please bear in mind this is only what I have relating to Robert Hollingsworth and his 'wifes'.
Each 'wife' has her own colour..Eliza and her kids are blue, Isabela and her kids are red, Mary and her kids are green.
We also have a mysterious 'Robert!' in 1871 with no obvious mother. One link to HMS Impregnable is considered.
I think Robert Hollingsworth has several alias (see different colour for each name he uses) and double families living just a few hundred feet apart in St Clements 1861. Also, see how the Isabel Taylor kids end up mixed with the Eliza Smith kids in 1871 after Isabels death AND the kids are mixed in order as if he was bearing kids with both ladies during the same period.....where is Robert Hollingsworth in 1871? I think he is then going by Robert Smith?!
Somewhere in the mix we have to account for Thomas Richey also (as connected to Katherine Hollingsworth Ferguson)
I am going to compare my data to yours, and perhaps we can chat when you've done the same?
Kind regards!
Darren
EDIT: Sadly i cannot get the colors to work for 1871 the most important year!
1861
1,Chain Court, St.Clements Dane, Strand, London
Robert Smith 34, printers, b.Southampton, Hants
Eliza, 25
Eliza, 4
Alice, 2
Portugal St, St.Clements Dane , Strand, London
Robert Hollingsworth 34, Bookbinder, b.Southampton, Hants
Isabela 33, b.London
Emily, 7 b.London
Katherine, 5, b.London
Helen, 1, b.London
1871
12,Crawford Passage, Clerkenwell, London
BLUE- Robert SMITH Head Mar 44 Bookbinder Hants Southampton
BLUE- Eliza Wife Mar 35 Middlesex Shoreditch
RED- Emily, age unknown, Bookfolder b. Middlesex
RED- Kate 15 Middx Holborn
BLUE- Eliza 14 Middx Strand
BLUE- Alice 12 Middx Strand
RED- Ellen 10 Middx Strand * is probably Helen..the 3rd Isabel daughter?
BLACK- Robert 6 Middx Holborn
BLUE- Bertha 1 Middx Holborn
1881
Morrison Family , Newcastle, Durham
Thomas Hollingsworth 54, actor, (lodger) b.Southampton, Hants
28, Northampton Rd, Clerkenwell, London
Robert Hollingsworth, 53, actor, b. Southampton, Hants
Mary, 24
Bertha, 12
Edward, 5
C, 11 * I think this is either 11 months or 1 yr?..and it is Cecilia?
W, 0 * this must be the Richard we see in 1891 onwards?
1891
4, Hermes St, Clerkenwell, London
Tom Hollingsworth 64, Tiemaker, b.Southampton, Hants
Mary, 40, b. London
Bertha, 20, b.Clerkenwell, London
Edward, 15, b.West ham, London
Mary, 11 b.Clerkenwell, London * does she ties up with Cecilia above in 1881?
Richard, 10 b.Clerkenwell, London * I think this is the 'W' listed above in 1881?
Frederick, 9, b. Clerkenwell, London
Florence, 4, b. Clerkenwell, London
Alfred, 1, b. Clerkenwell, London
1901
4, Hermes St, Clerkenwell, London
Robert Hollingsworth, 61, Tie Maker, b. Southampton, Hants * age must be wrong, surely?
Mary, 42, b. Middlesboro, Yorks * age and now saying birth in Middlesboro?
Cecilia, 20, Tie Finisher, b. Clerkenwell, London
Richard, 20, Horsekeeper, b. Clerkenwell, London
Frederick, 18, Bricklayer, b.Clerkenwell, London
Florence, 14, b.Clerkenwell, London
Alfred, 11, b. Clerkenwell, London
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(http://s1038.photobucket.com/albums/a461/HazelgroveGreen/)
trying to link a picture of Thomas Richey (aged about 10) it's not displaying in this message for some reason >:(
I uploaded picture from my computer to photobucket.com and inserted link on here by using the little picture icon above. No avail.
I am really not good at the uploading stuff
update: nevermind, it is in .pdf format which we can't use here.
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Can you scan it in in some other file format, or convert it using software on your computer?
The "technical help" board may be able to assist.
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My sister in law in London scanned it in as a .pdf, and it doesn't allow my the option to 'save as' in any other format.
My wife may now, she is the computer whizz in our house ;D
I don't want to get the thread off track into a technical discussion, so i'll just wait till she can check it fore me.
Shame cos it's nice to put a face to the pic.
i wonder if Jan has a pic of the villain of the piece...Robert Hollingsworth?
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Hi darren
I'm afraid i dont have a picture the only one i have is of Thomas/Roberts father also with the same Forename and also an actor, And my Grandfather drew a caracature of him. I do have info on his passport when he went to paris when he acted in a play he had blond hair blonde eyebrows grey eyes a pointed nose, its all in french so i had to get someone to translate.I also have a song written by him called WANTED A NICE YOUNG MAN. All of this is such an Enigma. on the 1871 census there is Alice well she must be Elizas child and not Thomas/Robert as Ellen Hollingsworth/ smith is younger than alice and i have the Birth certs of Ellen, Katherine and Emily and all i have found is a birth of Alice born 1857 mother eliza and single living in Richmond upon thames. The other thing is that you mention Brighton well my uncle said that my grandfather used to send my gran and the children off to kent hop picking while he went to Brighton.
have got got a birth cert of robert smith born 1865 and also of Cecilia/Mary.
Jan
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Hi Jan
thanks for posting here on this thread, it will make things so much easier with several wonderful people assisting. Anna, in fact almost feel like family as she knows them as well as I do! ;D
In 1881 I'm certain the Robert Smith living with Eliza, is the same person as the Robert Hollingsworth living round the corner with Isabella.
Isabella dies, and Mr.Hollingsworth/Smith moves the 3 girls (Emily, Katherine, Ellen) in with Eliza. Does anyone disagree?
yes, I agree Alice is Eliza's daughter, but thanks for the wonderful new info on Eliza's location (Richmond, Surrey, pure coincidentally I used to live there!...do you have the address by chance)...Alice went to a hospital in Ventnor, Isle of Wight, and died there in 1882, aged 24.
can we discount that Robert Hollingworth is the father of Alice? You may very well be correct that Eliza got pregnant by unknown man, but I still wouldn't rule our Robert Hollingsworth until we see the Birth Cert. :D
Brighton connection is very interesting too.....I always wondered why Thomas Richey settled in Brighton in the VERY early 1910's...We had a lead that had him there in 1911..........what timeframe is your uncle talking about .
Of course, maybe the two facts are not connected, as Brighton was a primary seaside location,....but also maybe your grandfather Edward was going to visit his older half-brother Thomas (Richey)!!!!! :o
update: per my Nan,...her parents Thomas Richey moved to Brighton because his wife Emily (nee Wood) had a long line of family in Brighton.
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Jan - thanks for sharing the stories about Robert Hollingsworth (senior, shall we call him) acting, i enjoy reading about it and will come back to that as soon as I finish cross referencing all the great info on extended family you provided.
I just didn't want you to think i was ignoring those stories,........ :)
do you have any idea about Robert Hollingsworth (the b.1827 one) lodging with the Morrison family in Newcastle, Co.Durham in 1881 under the alias Thomas Hollingsworth (listed as actor, correct age, Southampton)?
great to have you involved on this site Jan!
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Do you mean you HAVE the certs for Robert Smith and Mary/Cecelia, or were you asking if i do?
I don't have birth cert for either yet,....
Robert Smith (b.1865) but if it listed anywhere I will absolutely get it!.....he is certainly a loose end that needs tying up.
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No
I was asking you if you had the certs as i cannot find them anywhere. I have pulled off Thomas Richey WW1 records.
Jan
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I have the 1881 census and Thomas/Robert Hollingsworth (or Tom) was living with my Gran in Middlesex with all the children. where was Thomas richey in 1881
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In 1881 I'm certain the Robert Smith living with Eliza, is the same person as the Robert Hollingsworth living round the corner with Isabella.
Isabella dies, and Mr.Hollingsworth/Smith moves the 3 girls (Emily, Katherine, Ellen) in with Eliza. Does anyone disagree?
I agree, except that I think you mean 1861 ;)
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i do indeed mean 1861 Anna...thanks :)
In 1881 I'm certain the Robert Smith living with Eliza, is the same person as the Robert Hollingsworth living round the corner with Isabella.
Isabella dies, and Mr.Hollingsworth/Smith moves the 3 girls (Emily, Katherine, Ellen) in with Eliza. Does anyone disagree?
I agree, except that I think you mean 1861 ;)
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Jan-
in 1881, I have Thomas Hollingsworth (age 53) Mary (age 24) living at 28, Northampton St with Bertha, Edward, Cecilia(?) and Richard.
Hopefully thats what you have, right?
That makes perfect sense, but the strange 1881 Newcastle census listing as Thomas Hollingsworth (actor, 54, Southampton) is confusing us.
maybe it is simply that he being truthful and he moved (for work???) between the census enumerator calling at the London address and then on a different day at the Newcastle address. ???
We are not sure where Thomas Richey is in 1881 - it is strange he not listed on the census anywhere, ...at least not with that name!
as you know from his military papers he joined the army, Queens (West Surrey) Regmt in 1883
One earlier post (by LIZ?) shed some doubt on his age, as we had the age '38' being crossed out and '42' inserted on some military papers ....we should check what year that was...
I have the 1881 census and Thomas/Robert Hollingsworth (or Tom) was living with my Gran in Middlesex with all the children. where was Thomas richey in 1881
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We are not sure where Thomas Richey is in 1881 - it is strange he not listed on the census anywhere, ...at least not with that name!
...unless he is the 14-yr-old Thomas RICHEY listed in Middlesbrough in 1881 with his widowed mother Mary (see reply #66 above).
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yep, good point Anna - I also remain very intrigued by the Middlesboro potential.
It would explain the name, the omission from any Hollingsworth census returns and most probably the Catholic religion. Also that boy was born 1866 or 1867.
I wish we could verify Thomas Richey age
reply #121 (liz) shows on 9.9.1914 Thomas Richey gives an age of 42 years 48 days...which equates to a July 24 1872 DOB
reply #123 (liz) shows in 1921 he is giving his YOB as 1868
His 1915 marriage and 1914 army enlistment both give his age as 46...equating to a likely 1868 YOB
In 1891 census his age is given as 25, meaning a 1865/66 YOB thanks Anna ;D
In 1911 census he is listed as 46 giving YOB of 1964/65
Death cert in 1938 aged 73 gives YOB as 1864/65
Now, what about that Robert Smith boy...
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...and at death he was supposedly 73 in 1938 - leading to a birthdate of approx 1865!
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In 1891 census his age is given as 25, meaning a 1875/76 YOB
No - 1865/66 per my mental arithmetic ;)
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Have we found the dad (Thomas/Robert Hollingsworth/Smith) 's death?
I would so like to see if he left a will and if so what children he mentions in it ...... the Smith lot? The Hollingsworth girls? 'our Thomas'?
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The death of Thomas/Robert HOLLINGSWORTH was November 1907 (reg Dec qtr 1907 as Robert HOLLINGSWORTH).
I have looked in the probate calendars for 1907-1910 and (very regrettably) found no trace of a will/grant of probate or administration for Thomas (whether as Thomas or Robert).
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Thanks for checking :)
We know he died in City Road, Holborn Workhouse (Shoreditch?) in 1907, and from Jans great info we know he was in that Workhouse from March 1904 to death in Nov 1907.
Would that mean by definition, that he was destitute? if so, we are unlikely to find him leaving anything to anyone :'(
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I seem to recall that Jan said something about his having dementia (?). In any event, he doesn't seem to have left anything to anybody which is a great pity.
I suppose it is still possible that his wife Mary might have left a will. She was still alive in 1911, but did we ever find her death (or did Jan know of it?).
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Mary died 14th Febuary 1953 aged 95. Mary was living at Highbury Terrace Islington when she passed away.The cause of Mary's death was Cardiac failure, Heart block and Senility the informant was her son frederick hollingsworth. "
per Jans records
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This probably nothing, and even if proven i've no idea where how it helps, but desperate times call for
beer desperate measures.
remember the June 1915 wedding cert for Thomas richey and Emily Wood
well, the witnesses were
Robert Young
Frederick Maret (could be maset,but unlikey)
so, I ran a search on Frederick Maret and two things eventually matched up;
1) a Frederick Maret married Ap/Ma/Ju 1875 Strand,London 1b 858. that's our Thomas Richey's place of birth and familys pivotal area for decades. Our Richey would be a kid at the time.
2) a Frederick William Maret is discharged from the 7th London Rgmt in June 1915. that's the same Rgmt Thomas Richey is in at that time!
Now way at all of confirming any link between the two Marets (same guy or not?),or either with Richey yet, but I've got my nose to the ground in hope of a lead.
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searching militray records for Frederick Maret. I found 4 images for him...
including his sign up papers June 9th 1896 and the signature on the official form is 'identical' to that on the 1915 Richey/Wood marriage cert.
Maret gives his addr as 3,Telford Rd, Kensington. age as 18 yrs 3 months. making him born early 1878, so 10 -13 years younger than Richey.
Frerick Wm. Maret died July/Sug/Sept 1924 aged 46 (meaning a 1878 DOB..very possibly our guy)
doubt this helps us, but i am certain it's the witness from the wedding as the sigs are identical....I've been watching CSI Miami ;)
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Ok, a little more info direct from my Nan (Richeys daughter)
She clearly remembers the affluent (odd as her husband Hollingsworth Snr dies in the Workhouse 1907) Granny Hollingsworth coming to visit in Brighton, I have to assume this is Mary Hollingsworth (nee Hill).
It doesn't prove whether Thomas Richey was the biological son of Robert Hollingsworth, but it does further cement the link between to the family (not that I needed any additional convincing as i think a very strong connection has been established)
Richeys occupation listed on my Nans birth cert in 1920 is 'Theatrical Property maker' .
Per Nan he is a sublime carpenter and supplier of handmade childrens toys/dolls houses to toy shops in the region.
oddly, Nans 1942 marriage cert gives father name as Thomas WILLIAM Richey....
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1891 census
84, Brook St, Lambeth.
Robert J Smith, 26, chemist, b. Clement St Danes *
Frances W Smith, 21, wife
Eliza Smith, 65, mother
Mary Smith, 30, sister
1871 census
12, Crawford Pasage, Clerkenwell
Robert Smith, 44, bookbinder, b.Southampton
Eliza Smith, 35, wife
Emily, daug
Katherine, 15, daug
Eliza, 14, daugh
Alice, 12 , daug
Ellen, 10, daug
Robert, 6,son *
Bertha, 1, daug
* I was thinking this is the same Robert Smith. Age matches, mother matches, place of birth very likely matches.
but....
Jan found a 1865 birth cert for Robert J Smith, born 1865, Brook St, lambeth, son of father Robert Smith (labourer) and Eliza Smith
1881 census
102, Drury Lane, London
Robert Smith, 34, lodger, labourer **
** look like the father of the Brook St birth that Jan found?
I know there's a connection, here but ive got screaming kids and the vacuum cleaner all raging at once, so i'll have to come back to this.
help solicited ;D
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Darren, as I said to you in my PM earlier today I think the 1891 Brook St household is much more likely to correspond with this 1871 household than with "your" SMITH family:
1871 census: RG10/118/90/27
3 Tufton St, Westminster
Thomas SMITH Head Mar 46 Ivory turner Middlesex Marylebone
Eliza do Wife Mar 45 Dressmaker Surrey Wimbledon
Thomas do Son Unm 11 Scholar St Clement Danes
Mary E do Daur Unm 9 Scholar St Clement Danes
Robert John do Son Unm 6 Scholar St Clement Danes
& his marriage:
Dec qtr 1890
Robert John SMITH
Frances Winifred MARRIOTT
St Geo Han Sq 1a 867
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We are just checking and double checking every potential.
per 1871 census...Robert Smith and Eliza
I know Smith and Hollingsworths info is an identical match, but if anyone can separate Smith and Hollingsworth into two people,.....that would be really cool ;)
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I have found a Robert James Smith born 1827 Southampton who wed Eliza Nichols who was born in 1846 ion the 05/04/1857 in st Giles Cripplegate City of London and a daughter Eliza born the year after,
Could thomas hollingsworth and robert Smith be two different people, could they be related in some way.
Help this is giving me a bad headache.
Jan
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I have found a Robert James Smith born 1827 Southampton who wed Eliza Nichols who was born in 1846 ion the 05/04/1857 in st Giles Cripplegate City of London and a daughter Eliza born the year after,
Jan, this confuses me.
I see a Robert J. SMITH b Southampton, unmarried and lodging in Whitechapel (as a plasterer) in 1861. He is aged 32 in 1861, suggesting a birthdate of about 1829. [RG9/272/99/24].
I also see a marriage of (bachelor) Robert James SMITH to Eliza NICHOLAS at St Giles Cripplegate on 5 April 1857. This Robert is aged 20 at marriage, suggesting a birthdate of 1836-37. His occupation is warehouseman.
Surely they are not the same person? (And neither of them can be the same person as the Robert SMITH we think is Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH in disguise - as below in 1861):
RG9 180 45 35
1 Chain Court, St Clement Danes
Robert Smith 34 Printer's pressman bn Southampton
Eliza 25 bn Westminser
Eliza 4 bn Westm.
Alice 2 bn Westm.
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Jan - thanks for the copy of the 1857 wedding entry.
it shows Eliza as 16, so i think you may accidently put 1846 instead of 1840/1841?
it shows
Robert as 20
Eliza as 16
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for the first time since we began this search for Thomas Richey, I am beginning to feel a little disheartened about it.
It is really frustrating me, as I have no idea where to turn next.
I am all fired up to put in some elbow grease to make some progress, but not a clue about which direction to go now.
So many of you have been great helps, and I am truly grateful for all that you've done.
:-\
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Re Reply #147
Having trouble digesting all the pages of talk at this point, and don't think I can be of much help, but just wanted to point out that the Bertha Selina Walker Hollingsworth on Ancestry trees was apparently born on 21 Mar 1870 - Holborn, Middlesex, England
to parents:
Thomas Robert Hollingsworth ("born in Southampton 21 Jan 1827")
and
SARAH Eliza Smith ("born Sep 1856 in London")
(This tree details Birtha's descendants)
I'm not sure if this information has already been thrown into the pot.
JUST ADDED LATER:
Ooops... Sorry - see now that it had been thrown in! :-[
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Hi
thank you for your help i already have Berthas birth certificate it's cecilias that is the problem. Once again thank you very much i appreciate any help that is given as the Hollingsworth's are a nightmare including my Grandfather.
Jan
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Just joined in on this. I have been contacted on my ancestry web page by AVM. My husband is the grandson of Thomas Ritchie. His mother is a daughter of Emily and Thomas. I have no new info to add to the thread as I have faced similar difficulties. It would be good to know who you all are and how you are related.
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Hi Jane:
I received your message of Ancestry, and replied. I am glad we share Thomas Richey as a relative, and I DO remember your husband!
I am glad you signed up here, I have received such wonderful support in my research, and have made contact with a wonderful relative Jan Hollingsworth (Beckton) who's Grandfather is Thomas Richeys half-brother.
You will find this Thomas Richey journey we have shared on this site to be full of everything, well everything expect who he really was!
I also created a message inquiry thread about Emily Wood in the Sussex lookup request section on this site.... that also has a few surprises about Ms.Wood and her family.
So much I want to share with you, but it's late here (I live in USA)
I'll be back in a few hours.
Kind regards
Darren
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Hi darren
I went to London to see a show and i walked down the road our ancestor lived in it is Maiden lane and my sister took a photo of it so as soon as i get the pikkys from her i will send then to you. and it is now an Indian restaurant.
Jan
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How cool!
I used to partake in a few beers in The Maple Leaf pub adjacent from #16, Maiden Lane, and ate regularly in the Mongolian Barbeque restaurant that is 2 doors away! bizarre!
Hope you enjoyed the show! Was there anyone named Hollingsworth on the card? :o
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Hi darren
no no one named hollingsworth. My sister texed me to say that her grandaughter Madi is going to be in a film she is only 6 so the acting proffesion is coming out in that generation.
I will send you some more paperwork soon.
speak soon.
Jan
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Hi
I think i have found Eliza and Robert Smith's daughter Eliza's info. she was born 26/12/1856 and Christened 15/02/1857 at st lukess westminster.
She wed william betts in 1877 strand middx.and they had at least 6 children twin boys included. the twins were born in 1880/81 and John samuel died that year, also a daughter Eliza betts was born in 1879 and she also died in 1881. Eliza's husband william was born in 1883 and he died in 1890 Islington. I have added theses to my tree as i feel 95% that it is the same family.
Regards
Jan
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Nice work Jan!
I am going to read back thru all this later on.
Was there any joy from the local historical/theatrical group you contacted up North about Hollingsworth tour up there?
Darren
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No reply from them at all.
I have just found the birth of Edith Richey and her middle name was Bertha C how strange that Thomas named his daughter from Eliza Smith Bertha. I wonder if the C stands for cecilia as thats his other daughters name. What i find strange is that on berthas birth cert she is HOLLINGSWORTH but Eliza and Alice surname was Smith but the same mother.
It's getting stranger and stranger.
Jan
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Jan - here's what I know about the Richey children (my Nan nad her siblings). Allexcept Robert were born in Brighton. Note that Thomas Richey names his 1st born son 'ROBERT THOMAS'!
Robert b.1915 Marylebone - died in Palestine when young man?
Marie b.1918 - lived in Brixton, died in the 90's I think. I went to funeral.
Clara b.1920 - My lovely Nan, just turned 90. Alive and well in SW London.
Edith b. 1921 - deceased
Rose b. 1922 - 'Rene', mother in law of 'JMB44'. Alive in SW London.
Aubrey b. 1924 - Not 'Audrey' as listed on BDM. He moved to Canada.
Reginald b.1927- died 1931 in Brighton.
Ann b.1927 - 'Theresa'. Alive, living in Ireland.
Muriel b.1932 - deceased
I have more info that I will expand on via email, but not such how relevant much of their life history will be to you, and I just wanted to give you a brief rundown.
:)
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Thanks darren
I will add that to my tree.
Jan
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Its been a year,...shall we open up the 'Cold Case Files'??
Robert Smith aged 6 on 1871 census is as good a place as any to start.
right age, family, and place of birth (Holborn)
;D
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Hi Darren
At last you are back. Hope all is well. Did you get the Playbills i emailed you.
Yes i also think that Robert Smith and Thomas Richey are the same person. But who is the mother.? It would mean that our Grt Grandad had i fling with someone else while he was with Sarah Eliza as Bertha was born after Robert "Smith" and we know that Bertha was the daughter of Eliza Smith and Tom Hollingsworth. My god how confussing.
I wonder if there is anyone out there who knows any different.
I so wish we could solve this once and for all.
Bye for now Coz.
Jan :-*
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Hello again - I'd (almost) forgotten about this quest!
Robert SMITH (6 in 1871) could have been borne by Isabella HOLLINGSWORTH before her (supposed) death in Dec qtr 1866 - has that death cert been obtained to confirm whether or not it's the right Isabella?
Also please could somebody remind me of the full details of Bertha's birth certificate? Was SMITH the maiden name given for her mother Eliza?
I'll try to post a bit of chronological round-up so that we can all see where we are.
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Thank you SO much,...it is wonderful to see you again. I can now appreciate how Elllington felt when he saw the Prussians ariving to render aid at Waterloo! :)
Jan (Beckton) and i have remained in very close contact, and I have asked her to address the Bertha/Eliza question today.
Jan has worked endlessly in attempt to resolve this Richey riddle.
I'm headed to office now, but will be free this afternoon and evening.
Thanks again!
Darren
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Here's a bit of chronology by way of round-up (which can be amended and added to of course).
BACKGROUND: EVENTS PRE-1850
1823 (22 Apr): Marriage at St Mary's, Portsea, Hants of Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH and Catherine SIDNEY
1823 (25 Jul): Baptism at St George, Bloomsbury of Isabella Matilda TAYLOR (born 24 May), daughter of James TAYLOR, stationer, and Sarah, of Holborn.
1827 (27 Jan): Baptism at St Michael's, Southampton of Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, son of Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH and Catherine [Other baptisms to the same couple: Elizabeth on 13 Jun 1824 and Catherine Sarah on 6 or 16 November 1825]
EVENTS IN THE 1850S
1851 census
44 Seymour St, St Pancras, Middlesex: HO107/1496/299/51
Cathn HOLLINGSWORTH Head Widow 45 Hants Southampton
Elizh do Daur Unm 25 Teacher of music Hants Portsmouth
Cathn do Daur Unm 24 Teacher of music Hants Southampton
Thos R. do Son Unm 23 Teacher of music Hants Southampton
1852 (7 Nov): Marriage at Holy Trinity, Gray’s Inn Rd of Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, 25, dramatic artist, and Isabel TAYLOR, 24, both of Dyer’s Buildings, Holborn. His father: Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, dramatic artist; her father James TAYLOR, bookseller.
1853 (21 Aug): Baptism at St George, Bloomsbury of Emily Sarah Louisa HOLLINGSWORTH (born 6 May), d/o Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, bookbinder, and Isabella Matilda, of Warwick Square
1856 (15 Jun): Baptism at St Andrew, Holborn of Katharine Elizabeth HOLLINGSWORTH (born 1 Mar), d/o Thomas Robert HOLLINGSWORTH, bookbinder, and Isabella Matilda, of Thavies Inn
1856 (Dec qtr): Birth reg of Eliza Hollingsworth WALKER, Strand
1859 (Mar qtr): Birth reg of Alice Ellen Hollingsworth WALKER, Strand
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on the 1911 census, Thomas Richey resides at 16,Maiden lane, London, WC2, occupying one 'flat'
He gives his relationship to head of household as 'son', but is only one listed.
That raises 3 points:
a) is his parent owner of the entire building, or merely the 'renter of the particular flat'?
b) was that parent just not home on census night?
c) Who is the parent? their name was be a huge breakthru
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EVENTS IN THE 1860s
1860 (approx): Birth of Helen/Ellen HOLLINGSWORTH, Strand [not found]
1861 census (1)
1 Chain Chair Court, St. Clement Danes: RG9/180/45/35
Robert SMITH, 34, Printer's pressman b. Southampton
Eliza 25 bn Westminster
Eliza 4 bn Westminster
Alice 2 bn Westminster
1861 census (2)
15 Portugal St, St. Clement Danes: RG9/179/108/11
Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH Head M 34 Bookbinder b. Southampton
Isabella do Wife M 33 London
Emily 7 London
Katherine 5 London
Helen 1 London
1864 (23 May): Birth of Robert Thomas Hollingsworth WALKER, 10 Brookes Market, St Andrew Holborn - parents' details given as "Robert WALKER, comedian, and Eliza formerly PICKFORD".
1866 (Dec qtr): Death of Isabella HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn, aged 41 [identity confirmed from certificate. Death was from ovarian cancer.]
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EVENTS IN THE 1870S
1870 (21 Mar): Birth of Bertha Selina Walker HOLLINGSWORTH, mother's name given as Sarah Eliza nee SMITH
1871 census
12 Crawford Passage, Clerkenwell: RG10/379/40/73
Robert SMITH Head M 44 bookbinder Southampton
Eliza do Wife M 35 Shoreditch
Emily do Daur [age illegible] bookfolder Shoreditch
Kate do Daur 15 Holborn
Eliza do Daur 14 Strand
Alice do Daur 12 Strand
Ellen do Daur 10 Strand
Robert do Son 6 Holborn
Bertha do Daur 1 Holborn
1871 (21 Sep): Marriage of Emily HOLLINGSWORTH to Charles MOODY in Bethnal Green, her father Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH, book binder
1874 (Sep qtr): Death of Eliza HOLLINGSWORTH, aged 39, West Ham
1876 (29 Mar): Birth of Edward Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH at Maryland Rd, Walthamstow to Thomas R HOLLINGSWORTH, bookbinder, and Mary Helen nee HILL.
1876 (Jun qtr): Death of Eliza HOLLINGSWORTH, aged 19, West Ham
1877 (approx): Birth of Sidney, poss. illegit. child of Catharine/Katharine HOLLINGSWORTH, Leytonstone (he appears in her family as FERGUSON in 1881-1901 but was born before her marriage) [not found]
1878 (Dec qtr): Marriage of Catharine E HOLLINGSWORTH to Alfred FERGUSON, Holborn
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EVENTS IN THE 1880s
1880 (approx): Birth of Cecilia/Mary*, Drury Lane or Clerkenwell [*NB Not the Mary Cecilia SMITH registered Holborn 1879 who had the wrong parents & died in infancy]
1881 census (1)
28 Northampton Rd, Clerkenwell: RG11/352/8/10
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH Head Mar 53 Actor Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife Mar 24 M'sex Limehouse
B do Daur Unm 12 Scholar M'sex Oxford Passage
E do Son Unm 5 Essex Walthamstow
C do Daur Unm 11* M'sex Drury Lane [*prob in fact either 1 yr or 11mo]
W do Son Unm 8 days M'sex Clerkenwell
1881 census (2)
6 Brunswick Place, Newcastle upon Tyne: RG11/5059/131/25
[Lodging with a MORRISON family, along with 2 other actors]
Thos. HOLLINGWORTH Boarder Mar 54 Actor Southampton
1881 census (3)
Vessels: Impregnable
[In a long list]
R. HOLLINGSWORTH Boy 2nd cl. Unm 16 St Giles M'sex
1881 census (4)
St Catherine's Home, Ventnor, IOW: RG11/1184/97/44
Alice HOLLINGSWORTH Patient Unm 22 Bookfolder London
1881 (Jun qtr): Birth reg of Richard HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn (likely to be the 8-day-old “W” from the 1881 census)
1882 (Mar qtr): Death of Alice E.M. HOLLINGSWORTH aged 24, Isle of Wight
1882 (Sep qtr): Birth reg of Frederick HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn
1887 (Jun qtr): Birth reg of Florence HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn
1889 (Sep qtr): Birth reg of Alfred HOLLINGSWORTH, Holborn
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EVENTS IN THE 1890s
1891 census
4 Hermes St, Clerkenwell: RG12/226/121/46
Tom HOLLINGSWORTH Head M 64 Tie maker Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife 40 Tie maker London N.K.
Bertha do 20 Tie maker Clerkenwell
Edward do 15 Horse minder Essex
Mary do 11 Scholar Clerkenwell
Richard do 10 Scholar Clerkenwell
Frederick do 9 Scholar Clerkenwell
Florence do 4 Scholar Clerkenwell
Alfred do 1 Scholar Clerkenwell
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1900 ONWARDS
1901 census
4 Hermes St, Clerkenwell: RG13/251/177/60
Robert HOLLINGSWORTH Head M 61 Tie maker Hants Southampton
Mary do Wife M 42 Yorks Middlesbrough
Cecilia do Daur 20 Tie finisher London Clerkenwell
Richard do Son 20 Horsekeeper London Clerkenwell
Frederick do Son 18 Bricklayer labourer London Clerkenwell
Florence do Daur 14 London Clerkenwell
Alfred do Son 11 London Clerkenwell
1904 Robert HOLLINGSWORTH (snr) enters Holborn Workhouse, Shoreditch
1907 (Dec qtr): Death of Robert HOLLINGSWORTH (snr) in Holborn Workhouse, Shoreditch
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Thomas Richey lists his father on only 2 noted occasions;
1) Military paperwork 'Father- Robert Richie- actor'
2) 1915 marriage cert 'Father- Robert Thomas Richey - actor'
always lists Next of kin as 'Catherine Hollingsworth Ferguson' as 'sister', with whom he resided in 1891 census @ Strand , London.
Catherine is proven daughter of Ths Hollingsworth.
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on the 1911 census, Thomas Richey resides at 16,Maiden lane, London, WC2, occupying one 'flat'
He gives his relationship to head of household as 'son', but is only one listed.
That raises 3 points:
a) is his parent owner of the entire building, or merely the 'renter of the particular flat'?
b) was that parent just not home on census night?
c) Who is the parent? their name was be a huge breakthru
I think we looked at this before? His parent (though that could include step-parent) would have been the usual occupier, though one cannot tell whether as owner or tenant. Flats in this location are likely to have been leased to tenants and owned by a substantial landowner.
I think it likely that the usual occupier was his stepmother Mary HOLLINGSWORTH, who I recall was found elsewhere on 1911 census night with her son Frederick. Robert H was of course deceased by this point.
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Looking at the chronology above, and taking into account the fact that Jan has said that Mary HOLLINGSWORTH's maiden name was HILL, here is another candidate for the missing birth of Mary/Cecilia (aged 11 in 1891 & 20 in 1901):
Birth, Sep qtr 1879
Marie Cecilia L HILL
Islington 1b 324
Any thoughts welcome!
EDIT: No, she can be ruled out - appears elsewhere in 1881/1891
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Thomas Richey links to Hollingsworth...
1) Richey lists Catherine (nee Hollingsworth) Ferguson as his next of kin on all military papers for many years.
2) Richey is residing, in 1891, with Catherine Hollingsworth Ferguson & family at Strand, London.
3) Thomas Robert Hollingsworth Snr fathered Thomas Robert Hollingsworth jnr..... Richey was named Thomas Robert, and named his 1st son Robert Thomas...circumstantial i know, but still.
4) Hollingsworths were actors. In 1911 Richey living 16, maiden lane directly behind Adelphi Theatre, occupation 'Theatrical Stage Hand'
5) Richey daughter (my grandmother) vividly recalls a Granny Hollingsworth
6) Richey lists his father on military papers and marriage cert as Robert Richie, or Robert Richey - actor.
7) Richey lists his place of birth as St Albans, Holborn, London, which is prime Hollingsworth territory.
Im rushing here, but this is off top of my head...
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reply #147 is very important, as it shows the combining of the Smith and Hollingsworth broods.
At one point, both 'mans' children are with Mr.Smith, at a different stage both 'mans' children are with Mr.Hollingsworth.
I think they are the same person, living under two guises. Discounting this would mean we believe that messrs Smith and Hollingsworth were separate people, born same year in Southampton who raised eachothers children at some point while each naming ALL the children as their own produce.
Jan, I know you feel they are two separate men, and of course I'm happy to explore that :)
Anna et all,....opinions solicited.
thanks!
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Thomas Richey....
1865 (circa) b. Holborn.
1871 no census record found?
1881 no census record found?
1883-1895 Serving overseas with British Army (Queens Royal West Surreys)....source: military records.
1891 living Strand, London as 'brother in law-military reservist' with Catherine Hollingsworth Ferguson.
1911 living 16, Maiden Lane, London, WC2 occupation theatrical Stage Hand
1914 enlists British Army, listing addr as 16, Maiden Lane, next of kin 'Catherine Ferguson-sister'
1915 marries Emma Wood (actually Emily Wood) Kingston, Surrey. Living in Long Ditton, Kingston,. Surrey.
1917 departs Army, now residing Brighton, Sussex.
1938 dies Brighton ,Sussex.
of all the troubling points, the complete lack of a Birth cert and ANY listing as a child on 1871 and 1881 census is baffling. I can only assume he was living under another name at that stage.
Richey had an anchor tattoo on his arm, per his military records,.....link to navy as a youth perhaps?
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Darren, have you had a look at this naval record?
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/details-result.asp?Edoc_Id=6855098&queryType=1&resultcount=2
I would be intrigued to know the contents of this record. Sorry if it's already been covered!
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AHA!
A birth registration, the date of which is consistent with the birthdate of 23 May 1864 on that naval record. (NB - remember Bertha's second middle name of Walker?).
Birth, Jun qtr 1864
Robert Thomas Hollingsworth WALKER
Holborn 1b 522
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Great stuff!
the 'Walker' match definately warrants the raising of half an eyebrow. This Master Hollingsworth may or may not be the Robert Smith we see in 1871, and may or may not be the engimatic Thomas Richey, but I am now convinced he is a valid piece of this puzzle.
This Walker -Hollingsworth name combination is far too strong to be coincidental.
Robert Thomas Walker Hollingsworth was born May(ish) 1864.
Bertha Selina Walker Hollingsworth was born March 1870.
have we proven the Father of Bertha Selina?
Tom Hollingsworth 1st wife Isabella dies in between these two children
s birth.
AHA!
A birth registration, the date of which is consistent with the birthdate of 23 May 1864 on that naval record. (NB - remember Bertha's second middle name of Walker?).
Birth, Jun qtr 1864
Robert Thomas Hollingsworth WALKER
Holborn 1b 522
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any thoughts of the Robert Smith = Tom Robert Hoillingsworth theory. it gets very confusing.
???
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'Thomas Richey' names his first born.....' Robert Thomas'...I aint sayin',....I'm just saying' ;)
AHA!
A birth registration, the date of which is consistent with the birthdate of 23 May 1864 on that naval record. (NB - remember Bertha's second middle name of Walker?).
Birth, Jun qtr 1864
Robert Thomas Hollingsworth WALKER
Holborn 1b 522
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Darren - any chance you might be minded to invest the £3.50 for that naval record of Robert Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH (b 23 May 1864)? I don't know how much it will give you, but still...
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have we proven the Father of Bertha Selina?
Jan has the birth certificate and told me this about it in a PM (hope Jan doesn't mind me reproducing it here):
"Berthas birth cert she was born 21/03/1870 i cant read the address but its in the district of St andrews Holborn Middx daughter of Thomas Robert Hollingsworth and Sarah Eliza Hollingsworth nee Smith. Sarah signed the cert the address could be 29 Newham street Grays Inn Rd."
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Im still thinking mr Hollingsworth assumed Ms Smith last name , as reflected on 1871 census.
given that she gives her maiden name as Smith.
So Im sure the lad Robert Thomas Walker Hollingsworth is realted to Bertha Selina Walker Hollingsworth, is there any sight of the lad after 1871? the navy sighting in 1881 still viable?
I'm inclined to think Walker is a family name as was common in those days;intrguing.
Thanks
Darren
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For the price of a pint, I'd be delighted to make that purchase!
Do you know if a mailing scenario, or is something I could review almost instantly?
I'll try and do from here in USA, if that doesnt work, I'll call my brother in UK and have him attend to it this afternoon.
back soon,...work calls,...I hate being in a different time zone to y'all
Darren - any chance you might be minded to invest the £3.50 for that naval record of Robert Thomas HOLLINGSWORTH (b 23 May 1864)? I don't know how much it will give you, but still...
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Im still thinking mr Hollingsworth assumed Ms Smith last name , as reflected on 1871 census.
given that she gives her maiden name as Smith.
Despite Bertha's certificate I'm not yet persuaded that (Sarah) Eliza really was nee SMITH - could be wrong, but the name WALKER seems to have particular significance. I wonder what details appear on Robert Thomas Hollingsworth Walker's birth certificate.
SMITH could of course just be a convenient alias for a family in disguise...
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For the price of a pint, I'd be delighted to make that purchase!
Do you know if a mailing scenario, or is something I could review almost instantly?
I'll try and do from here in USA, if that doesnt work, I'll call my brother in UK and have him attend to it this afternoon.
back soon,...work calls,...I hate being in a different time zone to y'all
You get a link to view/download the document instantly.
I don't want to get too excited about it because I suspect this may be rather a brief record, but in a case like this any clue is a good one!
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Hi Anna
you are marvellous. I have seen the info you have found regarding Robert Thomas Walker so i am now going to order the birth cert.
I dont know how to thank you as Darren and I have been searching for ages.
Many Thanks
Jan
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I have purchased and viewed the Naval record for Hollingsworth. hers what we learn...
Name: Robert Thomas Hollingsworth.
DOB: 23 May 1864 St,Giles, Middx.
Height: 5 feet 5/10
Hair: Lt brown
Eyes: Lt brown
Complexion: Fair
Trade: Printer
'Date & period of C.S. Engagement': 23-5-1882 10 years *
Rank : Boy 2nd Class.
Ships served in:
'Boscawen' 28-11-1879 to 31-3-1881 **
'Impregnable' 1-4-1881 to ?
'Impregnable' 15-6-1881 to 20-7-1881 ***
behaviour on Impregnable was bad and though the notes are difficult to determine, it shows he was sent to shore and Bodmin Gaol (which I searched and was used as a naval prison in Cornwall). I'm still reviewing the details.
* this is the date he'd turn 18 and become a navy sailor (pensions date etc).
** Navy training ship, located Portland, Dorset in 1879
*** Navy training ship, located Devonport-Plymouth, Devon in 1881.
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1861 census. Robert Smith lists occupation as printer.
same as young Robert Thomas Hollingsworth lists on navy papers.
I'm becoming convinced the Robert Smith (1871 census) and Robert Hollingsworth (1881 navy boy) are the same person.
Matching.....Age, place of birth, Smith/Hollingsworth link, occupation all appeal to me.
Do we find a death for him, or does he become the Thomas Richey living with his sister Catherine Hollingsworth Ferguson in 1891?
I'm getting excited.......I really think we're making progress here!
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Hmmm...
Name: Robert Thomas Hollingsworth.
DOB: 23 May 1864 St,Giles, Middx.
Height: 5 feet 5/10
Hair: Lt brown
Eyes: Lt brown
Complexion: Fair
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And Thomas RICHEY's description:
Ready to get a mental picture of our friend?
In 1914
Age 38 crossed out and changed to 42
Height 5'3"
Girth 40 inches
Weight 164 llbs
Blue eyes, grey hair
Tattoo on left wrist of cross and leaves
tattoo on right wrist of anchor
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i know,...my hope sank when i saw the eyes colour.
However, in the bigger picture, IF multiple pieces were in place, I wouldn't let simply a difference in eye colour negate all else.
If young Hollingsworth disappears from record, at the same time that Richey appears (and living with Catherine Hollingsorth in 1891), that is potentially strong circumstantial evidence.
This message is brought to you courtesy of the 'Half Glass Full Society'
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This message is brought to you courtesy of the 'Half Glass Full Society'
;D ;D ;D
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Do the naval records for young Hollingsworth contain any examples of his handwriting, to compare with that of Thomas Richey?
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Well Darren
I thought that about the colour of his eyes but hay ho. I have just ordered the birth cert so in about 10 days we shall see.
Fron the courtesy of the always full glass of Vodka society
::)
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HA!
i cannot wait for THAT certificate.
Is it ok to call about 530 your time, or after,..i dont wanna call when your eating dinner etc.
Well Darren
I thought that about the colour of his eyes but hay ho. I have just ordered the birth cert so in about 10 days we shall see.
Fron the courtesy of the always full glass of Vodka society
::)
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Sadly no handwriting, or next of kin. I felt sure they'd have shown NoK for sure.
Handwriting matches confirm Richey's 1919 military pensions (at my grandmothers childhood address) and his earlier 1914 military papers (showing NoK as sister Catherine Hollingsworth Ferguson) were written by the same person.
Do the naval records for young Hollingsworth contain any examples of his handwriting, to compare with that of Thomas Richey?
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level of confidence on any of the following;
Robert Thomas Hollingsworth Walker (d.JUN qtr 1864 Holborn) is the same as:
a) Robert Thomas Hollingsworth d. 23-5-1864, from the naval cert.
b) Robert Smith aged 6 on the 1871 census
We need to see if we can find any records of Hollingsworth(Walker) to disprove he becomes Richey.
and what is the Walker connection. i tried seraching for Sarah (and/or Eliza) Walker b. London circa 1835, but fruitless matching so far.
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6 pm would be betterif thats ok by you.
Jan
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level of confidence on any of the following;
Robert Thomas Hollingsworth Walker (d.JUN qtr 1864 Holborn) is the same as:
a) Robert Thomas Hollingsworth d. 23-5-1864, from the naval cert.
b) Robert Smith aged 6 on the 1871 census
I am pretty confident/hopeful (in a "glass half-full of G&T" sort of way) these are all the same person. Hope that certificate comes quickly! It will be fascinating. I too have searched in vain for a suitable Ms Walker.
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Hi Anna
Through your brilliant work i have found the births of Alice and Eliza the two other children of Thomas Hollingswowrth and Eliza again their names were Hollingsworth walker. Now Sarah Eliza (Smith) must have been Walker so now its finding a birth for her. i have found one Eliza Walker born 1839 City of London (i Wonder) Many Many Thanks Anna.
Jan
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Wow - that's great Jan! :) I will insert them into the timelines above.
Could she have been a SMITH who became a WALKER? I seem to recall seeing a marriage in the early 1850s between a Reuben WALKER and Eliza SMITH. Reuben then seemed to disappear. Might be worth a look...
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Anna
I will check that one out. Have you any idea what could have happened to Elizabeth Hollingsworth born 1824 Southampton sister of Tom Hollingsworth Occupation teacher of music as she appears in one census then in the next census she is not there and then she appears in the following census and then thats where nothing more is heard of her.
Thanks again
Jan
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great stuff again Jan!....these past few days have encouraged me greatly.
And yes, I concur,...Anna you are wonderful :)
Now unless anyone can find any sighting (alive or dead
) of Robert Thos Hollingsworth Walker (b.23.5.1864) I will remain VERY positive that this is our guy.
Hi Anna
Through your brilliant work i have found the births of Alice and Eliza the two other children of Thomas Hollingswowrth and Eliza again their names were Hollingsworth walker. Now Sarah Eliza (Smith) must have been Walker so now its finding a birth for her. i have found one Eliza Walker born 1839 City of London (i Wonder) Many Many Thanks Anna.
Jan
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Anna...Jan and i spoke for ages last night. We are in agreement that after Robert Thos Hollingsworth (Walker) was thrown in jail by the navy and discharged in 1872, it is viable that he adopts the name Richey and joins the army in 1883.
The name change could be explained by not wanting to disclose to the Army his real identity in case;
a) they didnt accept him as a recent felon, and one that was just thrown out of the Navy.
b) He was on the run!
We discussed, and agreed, that recruiting background checks werent so stringent in Victorian times!
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Yes, I agree with all of that. If this hypothesis is correct I wasn't all that far off in reply #99 (p7 of the thread)! ;)
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Anna
I will check that one out. Have you any idea what could have happened to Elizabeth Hollingsworth born 1824 Southampton sister of Tom Hollingsworth Occupation teacher of music as she appears in one census then in the next census she is not there and then she appears in the following census and then thats where nothing more is heard of her.
Thanks again
Jan
Jan - Elizabeth was (as you say) a teacher of music in 1851. I don't recall seeing her after that - can you remind me?
If we don't see her after 1851 there is a possible death in Southampton, Dec qtr 1858.
Also missing in action is Helen/Ellen Hollingsworth b abt 1860, whom I can't trace after 1881. Come to think of it, I can't find any record of a birth, baptism, marriage or death for her - if it wasn't for the censuses 1861-1881 we wouldn't know she existed!
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Anna
the story of ellen Margaret Hollingsworth is born 1860 to Thomas r hollingsworth and isabella she is on the 1861 1871 1881 census, she wed William Custance Meadwell and they had 8 children apparently william left Ellen (not sure how true that is) she then weds Frederick Joseph Morant Jones in 1911 in Edmonton. I have a page from a dairy that states her and fred had a boarding house and that they were a happy fun loving family and that they were spiritulists. Ellen died in 1920.
Noe elizabeth Hollingsworth appears in 1841 St Clement danes and 1851 census St pancras then she missing in the 1861 census there is just Catherine het mother and catherine her sister then shes back in the 1871 census with mother and sister in St george London then thats the last that she is heard of.
Jan
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Hi Jan- yes I had just found Ellen Margaret (born Jun qtr 1860 West London) and her 1884 marriage to Mr Meadwell. How nice that you have inherited a diary giving a bit of colour to her family life!
I will have another look for Elizabeth.
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Anna,...reply #99......an eternity ago!.....this thread certainly ran and ran.
I assume there's no wedding for Hollingsworth and Eliza Walker,....it wouldnt be THAt simple would it, especially as Mr.Hollingsworth never felt being married to one lady was a restraining factor for raising families with other ones :o
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I don't think there's a marriage. Thomas/Robert Hollingsworth was of course free to remarry after Isabella's death in 1866, but he doesn't seem to have been too bothered about social niceties - and of course Eliza may already have been married to someone else in any event...
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no sighting of Robert Thomas Hollingsworth (Walker) post 1882 at Bodmin Gaol, courtesy HM Navy?
Any such sighting would have serious implications to the theory that he morphs into Thomas Richey circa 1883 (Richeys enlistment in army)
No such sighting would certainly be addition by subtraction!
:)
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No sightings by me! Unfortunately the National Archives page at http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=Naval_prisons suggests that naval prisoners' records have not survived. (BTW did the record you downloaded explain why he ended up there?).
While I think of it, am I right in remembering that Thomas Richey has not been traced in the 1901 census? If so, did his Army records assist on where he was at that time (South Africa perhaps)?
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The reason for his prison term was tough to decipher on is naval record. Something about 'going to shore.' To warrant dismissal from the navy as well as a prison term as a first offence for a young boy, one may assume it was the Captain's wife he mustve taken to shore! :o
I will upload onto Ances*** and invite you to view it if that is an option?
Richeys miltary record does list him as being in Sth Africa just prior to his leaving the army in 1895. However this doesnt marry up with his regiments official movements at the time, which was just prior to the Zulu wars.
Per an army historian, movement between units was fairly commonplace. i need to check further. Family gossip was that he also served in Ireland, something that is missing from his record, although British Army certainly were present in Ireland at that time.
I have no concerte proof of his Army service post 1895 though;yet.
I still feel military after 1895 is highly likely.
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Blimey darren where did you get all this infor from.
I hope you can upload them as i would love to see it.
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In a fascinating development, Jan has PM'd me to give the details from the recently-arrived birth certificate for Thomas Robert Hollingsworth WALKER, who was born on 23 May 1864 at 10 Brookes Market, St Andrew Holborn - parents' details given as "Robert WALKER, comedian, and Eliza formerly PICKFORD". I have added these details to the timeline on page 14 of this thread.
Brookes Market no longer has an active market, but still exists: http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/738853
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i saw that, and honestly didnt know what to make of it.
I certainly think its our guy, with Mr Hollingsworth assuming yet another alias.
What are your thoughts Anna?
I'll fetch the gin and vodka!
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Agreed it's the same guy/family - helpfully the birthdate is exactly right for the Robert HOLLINGSWORTH whose naval records you have and who was on the Impregnable in 1881.
But PICKFORD? As if we didn't have enough surnames going on! From Jan's discoveries of the births of Alice and Eliza in the 1850s (both as WALKER with middle name Hollingsworth) it appears that our thespian's unofficial family were using WALKER from an early stage. But of course SMITH then appears as their surname in the 1861 census and as Bertha's mother's supposed maiden name in 1870.
If they were trying to cover their tracks, they did a good job ::).
Mine's a Bloody Mary...
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same birthdate as the navy lad Robert Hollingsworth!
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same birthdate as the navy lad Robert Hollingsworth!
Indeed. We like that :)
Now all we need is Thomas RICHEY's birthday!
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Ok, a period of reflection is called for.
So are we thinking Walker, like Smith, was yet another assumed name for Eliza, or perhaps a married name?
all hands on deck to locate Eliza Pickford. this truly is a bizarre set of events.
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on the 1911 census Richey lists his place of birth as 'St.Alban's, Holborn'.
My recollection of London is that Brookes Market is going to be VERY close to the St.Alban's area of Holborn (roight by Grays Inn Road).
if so, another strong piece of circumstantial evidence.
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I went back to the 1861 census for Robert and Eliza "SMITH" to see whether there were any clues we had missed (PICKFORD in-laws perhaps?). No such luck. But I was able to clarify the address, which we had previously read as Chain Court. In fact it was Chair Court, described as follows in in Seymour's "History of the Parishes of London and Westminster," written in 1734:
"A little above St. Clement's Well, of note for its excellent spring water, is Plough Alley, which, with three turnings, goes into a street by the Plough stables, which fronts the playhouse by Lincoln's Inn Grange, in Little Lincoln's Inn Fields. More towards Clare Market is Horseshoe Court, a pretty handsome place, with a freestone pavement, having a prospect into St. Clement's Inn Gardens. And opposite to this court is Yates' Court, not over good nor large. Between Temple Bar and the turning into St. Clement's Inn, on the north side of the Butcher's Row, are several courts, most of which are but small. The first is Ship Yard, a thoroughfare into Little Shear Lane, with a pretty broad passage; on the east side is an open place going into a small court called Chair Court, with a fair freestone pavement. Next to Ship Yard are these courts: Swan Court, very small; Star Court, indifferent, good, and large, with an open air; White Hart Court, long but narrow; Lock Alley, long, but small; Windmill Court very small and inconsiderable: Crown Court hath an open air about the midst, and leadeth into Little Shear Lane. Bear and Harrow Court is so called from such a sign, belonging to a noted eating-house, at the entrance into it. This court (or rather alley, from its length and narrowness) runs into Boswell Court."From: 'St Clement Danes: The law courts', Old and New London: Volume 3 (1878), pp. 15-25. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=45127
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on the 1911 census Richey lists his place of birth as 'St.Alban's, Holborn'.
My recollection of London is that Brookes Market is going to be VERY close to the St.Alban's area of Holborn (roight by Grays Inn Road).
if so, another strong piece of circumstantial evidence.
I think St Alban the Martyr's church is either in Brookes Market or its adjacent street (Brooke Street).
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on the 1911 census Richey lists his place of birth as 'St.Alban's, Holborn'.
My recollection of London is that Brookes Market is going to be VERY close to the St.Alban's area of Holborn (roight by Grays Inn Road).
if so, another strong piece of circumstantial evidence.
I think St Alban the Martyr's church is either in Brookes Market or its adjacent street (Brooke Street).
Indeed it is, Anna! I now have absolute confidence that this Robert Thomas Hollingsworth Walker is indeed Thomas Robert Richey. ;D
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Eureka! ;D
That was a fantastic spot, Darren.
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Jan had shared some criminal transcript findings from the Central Criminal Court (Old Bailey). i've been trying to cross reference any info from them.
One was in 1878 and listed a Thomas Hollingsworth acquited of unlawful stopping of a railway engine, or something along those lines (no pun intended!)
There were two co defendents,...a Tom Jordan and a 2nd less visable appeared to be Frederick 'Pretlove' (i'll check for Pickford).... I'm going to see if that leads anywhere, as at least one was from St Pancras which isHollingsworth hunting grounds.
Could be our boy, or Hollingsworth snr,...or neither....
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I'm assuming there's no Eliza Pickford eagerly waving from the census records?
Her probable birth of circa 1835 would not be on F-BMD,..but A***stry perhaps.
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St Albans was built in 1863 so was virtually brand new when our boy was born in 1864.
There is some colourful stuff on the parish website about the character of its small parish at the outset:
"...the parish of S. Alban's was quite small and at the time of the original church no fewer than 8,000 people were crammed into a space measuring roughly 500 by 200 yards. There were cows, too, kept for milking in a shed in Brooke Street and it was a place of appalling destitution, a rookery of lodging houses, children's brothels, workshops and thieves' kitchens.
Some changes are now evident! Dickens drew on his knowledge of the area for Oliver Twist, where he describes it as "one of the lowest and worst that improvement has left in the midst of London". Indeed the font of the church was built on the site of one such 'thieves' kitchen'..."
http://www.stalbans-holborn.com/History%20Overview.htm
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thanks Anna,.....I just find the particular area of Holborn (St Albans) that Richey listed in 1911 to be so specfic in relation to the factual Brookes Market birth of Hollingsworth Walker that its almost impossible to make a case for them NOT being the same person.
Eureka! ;D
That was a fantastic spot, Darren.
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I'm assuming there's no Eliza Pickford eagerly waving from the census records?
No - scarcely a candidate to be seen.
There is a Henry PICKFORD/Mary Ann SMITH marriage at St Andrew Holborn, 4 Aug 1827, which may be worth following up for any offspring - I can't easily see them thereafter though.
Edited: They may have been the Henry and Mary Ann PICKFORD who baptised a daughter Jane Maria in Southwark in 1828.
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yes indeed! Saffron Hill (Fagin's Den) is just around the corner, though Twist was set in 1830's I believe.
Dickens actually lived on Grays Inn Road.
Imagining just how things looked in those days is a fascinating component of the genealogy fixation for me. It's so easy to get lost in data crunching, that we often lose sight of how our ancestors actually lived.
St Albans was built in 1863 so was virtually brand new when our boy was born in 1864.
There is some colourful stuff on the parish website about the character of its small parish at the outset:
"...the parish of S. Alban's was quite small and at the time of the original church no fewer than 8,000 people were crammed into a space measuring roughly 500 by 200 yards. There were cows, too, kept for milking in a shed in Brooke Street and it was a place of appalling destitution, a rookery of lodging houses, children's brothels, workshops and thieves' kitchens.
Some changes are now evident! Dickens drew on his knowledge of the area for Oliver Twist, where he describes it as "one of the lowest and worst that improvement has left in the midst of London". Indeed the font of the church was built on the site of one such 'thieves' kitchen'..."
http://www.stalbans-holborn.com/History%20Overview.htm
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Eliza's place of birth , as listed on censuses. isnt uniform either. No surprise there.
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I can't wait to see what names she's thought up for herself on the birth certificates of her first two daughters! (Jan has them on order...)
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Do you think Pickering is a valid name for Eliza?
the match of Smith and Pickford (both names used by Eliza) in a marriage in HOLBORN is already drawing my attention.
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Pickering as opposed to Pickford?
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mea culpa.
what a waste of an hour THAT has been searching in vain for a Henry Pickering sighting on Anc**try ::)
Pickering as opposed to Pickford?
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I found a London hatter named Henry Pickering, who in 1819 was the victim of atheft from his store in St.Giles, London!
case was at the Old Bailey.
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I've edited my post above about the Pickford/Smith marriage in 1827 - looks like they may have drifted south of the river and baptised a daughter Jane Maria in Southwark in 1828. No obvious sign of any other children.
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The irony of the Pickford name, and the constant upheaval isn't lost on me :)
Surprised there's no record on her birth though.
I've edited my post above about the Pickford/Smith marriage in 1827 - looks like they may have drifted south of the river and baptised a daughter Jane Maria in Southwark in 1828. No obvious sign of any other children.
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We still haven't got to the bottom of where WALKER came from. One rather gets the feeling that names were plucked out of the air on a whim.
???
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rechecking everything Anna.
Would purchasing this be beneficial? What does a UK Death cert generally divulge.
I'll certainly purchase it, just wondering what can be expected.
Thanks!
Here you go:
Death Dec qtr 1938
Thomas R. RICHEY aged 73
Brighton 2b 344
:)
(Perhaps your grandmother's recollection was a year or so out? There aren't any other suitable deaths).
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Unfortunately the death certificate is unlikely to add a great deal - see
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
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Incidentally I took a short cycle detour through Brooke Street/Brookes Market yesterday to see whether I could take a photo of no.10 for you - but other than the church which looms over the north-west corner of the market there is nothing still there which would have been there in the 1860s.
There's a bit more on the reshaping of the area from old slums to large-scale social housing here: http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=44898335723&topic=5127.
St Alban's school (albeit in newer buildings) seems to be going strong, if the lunchtime noise from the playground is anything to go by! I wonder where the Hollingsworth/Smith/Walker children went to school?
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Interestingly St Alban the Martyr's church is strongly Anglo-Catholic - perhaps our boy received his early spiritual education there and turned to the Roman Catholic church later on. Alternatively it may be that Eliza was always Roman Catholic and brought her children up in that faith - I don't think we have yet found a Church of England baptism for any of Eliza's children (in contrast to Isabella's).
Do the naval records give a religion for young Hollingsworth in the 1880s?
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Jan-Anna...Apologies for my short sabatical, I've been very busy and what with Easter etc.....
A couple of isues I'm drawn to as i comb over everything once again.
The Hollingsworth clan drift East at somepoint after 1871. We see Eliza (Tom's spouse) dying in 1874 in West Ham.
18 months later , in Mar 1876 Tom and Mary Hill (any sign of a wedding or definate birth location for Mary?) produce Edward T.Hollingsworth in Maryland Road, Walthamstow (any specifics on the cert Jan?)
Eliza (Tom's daughter) dies in West Ham 1876.
I'm trying to unearth any info on Tom (and his boy who i'm convinced becomes Richey) in the 1871-1881 period.
Secondly,...
To Anna's great point re: 1911 census where Thomas Richey is at 16, Maiden Lane , aged 46 (ergo b.1864 whoop whoop Hollingsworth Walker if you please!) . Perhaps Richey lists himself as 'son' as Mary Hill, his defacto stepmother since aged 12, is the resident as is merely absent on census night 1911. in fact, i believe she is with one of her sons that night.
Jan, do you have anything on Mary for the period after Tom goes into Workhouse in 1904?
:)
D
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Hi darren
Great to have you back on board. Right i will be getting the death certs of Eliza 1 and 2 also Alice this week so i will e mail them to you. I have also sent you an email i sent to I.O.W regarding Alice and i have to send off for paperwork from them regarding info on St catherines. As far as i can tell it was a home for children with TB as Alice was i think 22 then perhaps she was a nurse.
I have no Birth or marriage cert of Mary nee Hill. My granfather Edward was born in 1876 as i have his cert (do you want a copy of that).
I have the 1911 census and mary was living in Hermes street with her son frederick and his wife to be Lilian Ponsford no sign of Thomas Richey Hollingsworth Smith Walker etc. I am keeping an open mind about the Toms being the same person as one cant change their eye colour or grow taller as the years go by. I think we still have some researching to do on that.
Talk soon COZ Jan
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Thanks for the IoW Ventnor email Jan, I did see that.
I'd like to see the Edward Hollingsworth birth cert, yes please.
I'm trying to see why they all move East from Clerkenwell after 1871, and what I can learn of their life there. The move back before 1881.
That addr in marland Road or any bits and pieces will help...thanks!
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Hi Darren
I get that done for you i am going to e mail you the death certs of the Eliza and her two daughters they all died of TB.
My grandfather was born in the march as Eliza junior died in the April. although our grt was a bit o a so n so he did have a sad life.
Let me know what you think of the certs.
Jan
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Hi Darren
Do you know the middle names of Thomas Richeys children i know one is Bertha after Thomas's sister.
Do you or anyone out there know anything about Robert Thomas W Richey born 1915 on how to obtain a death cert as he was killed in Palestine or any info regarding the Palestinian war..I guess he was there about 1938 onwards
I may have found Eliza info, on one census she said she was born in Shorditch, i found her and her family in the 1841 census living in Shoreditch. In another census she said she was born in Holborn where in the 1851 census she is there with the same family as in the 1841 census.
I now think that Thomas and Robert are the same person as 1871 and 1881 Robert Hollingsworth is there and not Thomas Richey and in the 1891 and 1911 census Thomas Richey is there but not Robert hollingsworth.
Complicated isn't it.
??? Jan
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Happy 148th Birthday Mr. Richey,........what an enigma you, and your family, were! ;D
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Hi darren
Yes Happy Birthday Thomas. I certainley am an Enigma thats a Hollingsworth trait so i suppose that makes you the same Ha Ha.
Jan
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Hiya Jan,.....yes I have the details regarding Robert T W Richey death. i shall email them to you.
Ive got the ancestry bug back again :)
D
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Darren
About time to0ooo i was wondering what happened to you. I didn't like to pester as i know you are a busy busy bee.
Ilook forward to the info.
Jan