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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: elfinblues on Friday 26 February 10 12:27 GMT (UK)
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Hello! I've recently discovered that I have what I believe to be huguenot ancestors. My link comes through Sarah Vasseur (b. c1772, married Samuel Johnson 1808, Christ Church, Spitalfields). She was born to James Anthony Mary (?) Vasseur and Sarah Baker.
Sarah is the first child, to the best of my knowledge, and was christened at Christ Church, Spitalfields. A FamilySearch search for James and Sarah as parents brings up a list of 9 possible children - the three most likely of which are Jacques Antoine, Jean Henri and Augusta/us Ann; however, the first two were christened at 'Threadneedle Street French Huguenot' and the third at Saint Matthew Bethnal Green. The other possible children were christened at Saint Leonard's Shoreditch. It is possible that the family moved around, and that all these children could have been born to the same parents, but I want to be sure who 'belonged' to which parents. I know the name 'Vasseur' couldn't have been an overly common one, but I do want to be as sure as I can about parentage before adding any of them to my tree. I just don't know how.
I should also point out that James Vasseur, the father, seems to have a French version of his name "on the go", too - Jacques Antoine Marie Vasseur. Although I'm sure this is perfectly possible, given his heritage, I would be sceptical that they were the same person were he not showing (by his French name) as being Jean Henri's father with Sara Baker the mother, so I am as sure as I can be that the different names apply to the same person. Another curious thing is that some of the children have what look like 'purely' French names whereas others have perfectly English names. I might have taken this difference as a sign of different parentage if Jacques Antoine and Jean Henri weren't two of the most likely children of James/Jacques and Sarah.
So, as you can probably tell, I'm rather at a loss as to how to confirm the members of this family. Ancestry doesn't throw up much after Sarah Vasseur (the eldest child); James/Jacques and Sarah's marriage does appear, as does the aforementioned Augusta, but none of the other children do. I presume this may be because the other children (or at least some of them) were christened in huguenot churches, and so further research may be required in that direction. The IGI throws up the nine possible children, but I'm aware the IGI should be treated more as an index or a signpost than as a primary resource in its own right, and it doesn't seem to throw up any results any further back than James/Jaques and Sarah.
If anyone out there has any experience of researching huguenot ancestors and is able to offer me any advice, all suggestions and help would be extremely gratefully received!! Thank you so much.
Yours, in a pickle.
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My Huguenot ancestors (Boullen family) did exactly the same things - used English and French names interchangeably, baptised their children all over the place in London and chopped and changed churches when they went elsewhere. They had the first five children baptised after each child's birth, then there was a gap of 10+ years and they had the next five baptised alltogether as a job lot. Why? - I wish I knew.
You will find a lot of Huguenot records in the non-conformist records on www.thegenealogist.co.uk. It's a subscription or pay-per-view site.
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A bit more: my French ancestors left France between 1720 and 1750, so at a similar time to when yours first appear in the English records.
I also get the impression that my Huguenots were very proud of their French ancestry - although it is 250 years since they left France, I had heard a family rumour that we had French blood and my recently discovered 4th cousin who is also descended from the same family remembers her grandmother talking about her "French grandmother" and in fact the "French grandmother" was born in London about 1815 to English-born parents. I think they must have worked hard to assimilate with their English neighbours whilst at the same time retaining their own cultural traditions.
A lesson for us all today, I think!
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That's really interesting, thank you alpinecottage. As yours did the same as mine, in moving residences and churches, how did you find connecting them? Was it easy when you knew where to look, did you have to make a lot of educated assumptions? It appears to me as if all the IGI results could have been the same family - it's getting a bit more evidence that I need to concentrate on now.
One other question (sorry for asking so many!) - how did you manage to discover when they first left France/arrived in England? That would be a wonderful discovery to make, if I could.
Thank you!
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Fortunately, I found most of the family together on 1841 census, (complete with mis-spelt surname, which has been a bit of a problem) so I knew the children's names. I have needed to check for parent's names and occupations on the parish records, to confirm I'm working on the correct family. I also discovered my 4th cousin who is as interested as I am in the family and we have worked together (online, not in the flesh). Actually I've had some lucky breaks - one died after falling downstairs under the influence, so there was a report of her inquest in the newspaper (on Gale Archive, accessible through some county libraries). Another was an acrobat who died after having an accident in practice, so there was another newspaper report on his death and I could follow his earlier career in The Era, a stage oriented newspaper also on Gale. I found an illegitimate member of the family because he was buried with other family members and was on the Manchester burials website. Of course I used Freebmd, IGI, historical directories and The Genealogist and Ancestry (free at our local library). The info on when they left France was found at the Huguenot Library in London - I didn't go but someone else had found it and it gives really interesting snippets, eg one of my earliest Boullens wore a tricorn hat and had his hair in a ponytail!
I have spent more time on this than is good for me ::) and I was fortunate in that they were quite well documented and literate. From about 1850-1900, they had a chain of grocers shops in Manchester, so not too itinerant but there are still unanswered questions.
The family is quite real to me and I sometimes feel as if I could jump on a bus and pop over to see them....see, I told you I'd spent too long on them!
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Elfin Blues...I have PM`d you...you can PM Alpine Cottage with the site I have passed on...
nearly 50,000 results for Vasseur and nearly 600 results for Boullen
.allan ;)
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Hi
My Huguenot ancestors came to London inbetween 1685 and 1752. The last one was a Francois Fradin who came to England in 1752, wed in 1759 and died in 1803. I have Auber ancestors who also used the name variant of Obey.
Ben
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Hello Elfin
I have a fair bit of experience researching Huguenot ancestors, especially in Londons East End .
First off just to give context, the Huguenots came over to England in several waves, the first after the Massacre of St Bartholomews Eve in the 1500's. This didn't really leave much of a lasting impact, but the real big wave which did came a century or so later in the 1680's, following the Dragonnades and the Revocation of the Edit of Nantes in France, this probably at very least 50,000 strong. Another surge came to England between 1698-1702, maybe 10,000 -15,000, most of these having been refugees already in the Netherlands, which had seen similarly huge numbers flee to them in the 1680's. It then settled down considerably, though steady numbers continued to come at least until Louis XIV death in 1715.
There was then a slightly more favourable condition to Protestants in France, though there faith was still illegal, so not many came in the 1720's/1730's. The Protestants still in France, the 'Desert Church', felt confidant enough to start worshiping openly again around 1745/6 in some areas, in the hope they would be seen to be 'harmless' and the law might then be changed in their favour, but unfortunately this instead precipitated another back lash against them from around 1748, and for next 10 years or so, there was a fresh wave of refugees , nowehere near as big as 1680's, but still maybe between 5,000-10,000, particularly from the Normandy and Poitou provinces where the Roman Catholic Church authorities held considerable sway over the local Intendants.
The Protestants were not finally given civil status in France until the 1780's, and not full equality until under Napoleon at the turn of the 19th C. There were still small amounts of refugees coming to London (perhaps 200 or so) as late as the last decade of the persecutions, the 1770's, almost all these from the Cambresis and Picardy, on the Flemish borders, where again the cause was a particularly zeaolus regional Catholic Clergy, with much influence at local government.
Anyway apologies for the potted history lesson....but I think it is important for you as your family is using the Threadneedle Street Church at an unusual and relatively very late date, the 1790's. This is a very interesting time for the church and the French community in London. Very few of the Refugees from the original waves 1680's-1720's, were still using the church by this late a date, most had become well assimilated by the 1750s'/60's, and if not the son and daughters, then the grandsons and daughters of the original refugees certainly had mostly become Anglicised.
The congregation of Threadneedle Street at the outset of the 1790's largely then consisted of this later wave of refugees from 1748-1780, and their families, and perhaps one or two older members, surviving children of the earlier waves.
The 1790's saw the numbers of baptisms at Threadneedle Street shrink hugely again, and it would never really recover. Partly this was because no new refugees were now coming to replenish the church, but also this was the period when England went to war with Revolutionary France. Londoners have always had a reputation for being somewhat excitable and prone to the mob and rabble (e.g, the attacks on Catholics during the Gordon riots just a decade before this in 1780, and then later the attacks on German Londoners during WW1). To be seen as 'French' during this period was undoubtedly dangerous in London, so a great many Anglicised their names and switched to the English churches. In effect it greatly speeded up a process which had long already been going. By the opening decade of the 1800's only perhaps two dozen or so families still regularly used the French Church at Threadneedle Street.
Your Vasseurs are interesting because they are using the church during the 1790's, but, assuming it is the same couple, they are also using the Anglican churches. (No moving around required for this by the way, they would have most likely been living in Bethnal Green or Spitalfields, and Threadneedle Street, St Leonards, St Matthews and Christ Church were all within easy walking distance, and most Huguenot families will be found using all four of these churches, and possibly a fifth too, St Marys Whitechapel). His wifes surname Baker is English (If it had been for example Boulanger and she had Anglicised it, they would still have used the French form at Threadneedle Street) so he seems to have married a local. I'd think then he is most likely the son of a first generation refugee, who came over 1748-68, and was born in London himself, or he was bought here as a very young child at the tail end of this spectrum.
You would expect to find their names recorded with the French forms in the French Churches, and English in the English Churches, even well before this later date, this was just the protocol for recording their names. For example a Jacques will be a James in English churches, Francois a Francis, Andre an Andrew, and so on. This is not at all unusual and doesn't really reflect what they themselves prefered to be known as day to day, so I wouldn't draw any firm conclusions from that.
I have a few of the Huguenot Societies publiciations and will look through them and see if the Vasseurs are mentioned and get back to you if I find anything of interest, but hope that helps a bit with your searches for now.
Richard
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We meet again Richard. Its me Ben, the one who I have been conversing with you on another forum and we found that I share ancestors with the Kray Twins.
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Hi Elfin
Done some looking and have some interesting news.
Seems your man likely was a first generation refugee after all.
He joined Threadneedle Street Church 30 September 1781:
Jaques Antoine Vasseur , by abjuration T. Monsieur de la Chaumette 30 Sep 1781
The abjuration means he was either born a Catholic in France or had been forced to go to mass at some point, and had to abjure before he could join at Threadneedle Street.
To display how unusual this late date is, Threadneedle Street had 35 new members join that year, nearly all children of exisiting members, or 'lapsed' former members being readmitted. He was the only 'fresh' refugee from France. (the year before has likewise seen only one family, the Normands joining as new refugees from France). In contrast at the height of the Huguenot immigration in the 1680's Threadneedle Street was getting over a thousand new members a year from all corners of France, and people could not fit into the services there without frequent casualties from crush and heat exhaustion.
Here are his two baptisms there
Vasseur - Dec 20 1789
Jacques Antoine
son of Jacques Vasseur and Sara Baker.
Godfather Francois Nicholas Vasseur,
Godmother Susanne Baker
Born 5 Dec.
Vasseur - Dec 21 1794
Jean Henri
son of Jaques Antoine Marie Vasseur and Sara Baker
Godfather Jean Henri Machu
Godmother Susanne Catherine Machu.
born 8 December
The godparents interest me as Jean Henri Machu I have previously researched before, for one of his g-g grandaughters. The Machu family were from Quievy in the Cambresis, on the Flemish borders, and were part of the latter wave of refugees. Members of this family came over to London as refugees in the 1740's/50's/60's and 70's. In fact one of their number a Phillipe Jacques Machu of Quievy in Cambresis, who came over the year after your man in 1782, may possibly holds the title ot the last ever French 'Huguenot' to come as a 'refugee' to London before the Edit of Tolerence was passed in November 1787. Quievy had a particularly troublesome Catholic governer, and the persecutions here continued long after they'd ended virtually everywhere else in France.
Many of the French Protestants in this area, including the Machus, crossed the border to the Protestant temple of Tournai in modern Belgium, for their weddings. However could not find any Vasseurs listed (perhaps he was indeed from a Catholic family in France as his abjuration suggests).
However I did find a Jacques Antoine Marie Vasseur listed on the French Family Tree site Geneanet.
http://gw5.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=wailly&lang=fr;p=jacques+antoine+marie;n=vasseur
http://gw1.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=gwoillez&lang=sv;p=jacques+antoine+marie;n=vasseur
They have him as born 1752, St Leonard, Pas De Calais, a clerk at the school of Ambleteuse and a labourer at Doudeauville.
They have him as married to a Marie Barbe Labarre in January 1783. This would seem to rule him out, but does make you wonder if he is the same person or linked to yours, as the name is quite unusual. Marie is a feminine name to my knowledge, and I've not seen a man have it as a middle name anywhere else before.
Hope that helps
Regards
Richard
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We meet again Richard. Its me Ben, the one who I have been conversing with you on another forum and we found that I share ancestors with the Kray Twins.
Hello Ben, thought it was you, good to see you around again. How are you getting on with your researches any further on the Aubers and Morins yet?
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I am doing well. Francois Fradin was the one who was born in Moncoutant in Bas Poitou, France and wed in London in 1759 to Elizabeth Morin and died in 1803 in the French Hospital.
As you found out he joined the Calvinist Church in 1752. The one born in 1731 was initally thought to be mine but it was a different one. I have found that he wed Mary Ann fearon in 1760 in Holborn and a Claudius Fradin was a witness.
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Did you ever contact the archives in Poitou about possible prison records for him Ben? It would be interesting to know the circumstances which led to him being imprisoned in France . I hope to eventually write an article on the latter wave of refugees 1748-80 and submit it to the Huguenot Society, and it would be nice to include Francois Fradins story as a case study for Poitou refugees during this time.
Funny Ben but I was thinking of you just this week what with the new Norfolk records coming online, your from up that region arn't you? Hope they have been helpful to you, I've managed to get a couple of my Norfolk lines further back.
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Elfin
Just a bit of additional information
The witness at the first baptism Francois Nicolas Vasseur was married 9 Aug 1792 St Marylebone London to a Margaret Janet Frost. A Marie Francoise Adelaide Vasseur and an Augustine Vasseur were both married in 1782, at St James Westminster. All 3 marriages West London rather than East, perhaps Jacques siblings?
Also Jacques enrolled his daughter Sarah, as a pupil at the Threadneedle Street Church's Charity School aged 7, Jan 1793 (His name is recorded on this record Anglicised as James Anthony Vasseur). Her birth date then would be more 1786, could not be as early as 1772 I would think.
Richard
Edit: Elfin I'm a bit puzzled as to where the 1772 date comes from Sarah, the age on the IGI Christening matches more or less with the School Record. These are the children as I have them:
Sarah Vasseur - 1787 Christchurch, Spitalfields
Jacques Antoine Vasseur - 1789 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot, London
Francis James Vasseur - 1791 St Matthew, Bethnal Green
Jean Henri Vasseur - 1794 Threadneedle Street French Huguenot, London
Augustus Ann Vasseur - 1796 St Matthew, Bethnal Green
James Anthony Vasseur - 1803 St Leonards, Shoreditch
Thomas William Vasseur - 1805 St Matthew, Bethnal Green
Mary Vasseur - 1807 St Leonards, Shoreditch
James Vasseur - b.1810, bap 1819, St Matthew Bethnal Green
The thought occurs, since he married a local girl, perhaps initaily they decided to baptise their children alternating between the Anglican Church, and French, to please both familys, a compromise? And then by 1800 with the French Church in serious decline anyway, gave up on this and settled with the local Anglican Churches.
Edit 2: Found Sarahs Threadneedle Street Charity School Admission Record which gives her date of Birth:
VASSEUR, Sarah ; d. of James Vasseur and Sarah — born 18 Sept., 1787— baptised. Christ Church, Midx., 7 Oct., 1787. Sponsors: G. Ashton, L. Mercier.
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Hi Richard
I have not contacted them yet. I need to so that I can find out which Francis is which as there were two born at roughly the same time in Poitou.
Do you have any further information on the Fradins which you may have in your records or the Obey/Aubers? I think Francis Fradin was a godfather to a few baptisms at Old Artillery Spitalfields as their transcript of registers are at Westminster Archives but I couldn't find anything else. Have you got Old Artillery registers at all?
Ben
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Hello Ben
I do have a copy of the Societys transcriptions of the Artillerys registers. Several of my family also used this church.
Are these the two you found?
Elizabeth Marie Annereau 21 July 1757 Godparents Francois Fradin and his wife Elizabeth Morin.
Gabriel Rivalin 15 Feb 1768 , son of Gabriel Rivalin and Susanne Morin, Elizabeth Fradin as the godmother.
I think I have pretty much exhuasted the records available to me on the Aubers/Morins etc. Have you been to the Huguenot Library in Euston yet Ben? They may have charity records for Francois in the 1750's there. This and contacting the archives in France about the prison record are your best avenues to move further in my opinion.
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard
I didn't know about a Huguenot Library. I might have to contact them then. Susanna Rivalin's maiden name was Morin as she was the sister of Elizabeth Fradin nee Morin.
Francis and Elizabeth didn't marry until February 1759 yet he says he was married to her in 1757. Odd.
Ben
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Ben, quite right the orig record just says Godfather Francois Fradin, Godmother Elizabeth Morin, no mention of wife, that was down to me! :o
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http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/library-and-archive.html
This is the library details Ben. I do think they charge a small fee for non students or Huguenot Society members, but they do hold later charity records there covering the 1750's. I keep meaning to get down there and try and view them for my own ancestor Francois Bellenger who came to England more or less same time as Francois Fradin. If I remember rightly your Francois may have gone to members of the Fradin family already in London, so might not have needed any charity payments, but still worth looking all the same never know what info you might find.
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Hi Richard
Thanks for the link. Francis and Elizabeth must have been together for a while before they married then. I wonder if the Annereau family connect in any way?
Ben
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Hi Ben
They had a few more kids baptised at the Artillery, and were among their parishoners who were amalgamated into Threadneedle Street when it closed in the 1780's, shortly after the death of Jacob Bourdillon who was the minister there for over 50 years.
No clues as to where they came from but a Susanne Morin is godmother to another of their daughters there in Sep 1766.
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Aha...checked the French Hospital Records. The parents of the girl Francois Fradin and Elizabeth Morin stood godparents to, Jean & Marie Annereau, were also first generation refugees from Mouilleron in Poitou. Marie's maiden name was Paillat and when she applied to the hospital in 1796 she gives her adress as the home of her cousin 'Rivalin'.
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Hi Richard
Wow that is good. So the Annereau's came from Mouilleron as well.
Suzanne Fradin was born in March 1765 in Spitalfields the daughter of Francois and Elizabeth Fradin nee Morin and she wed a Dennis Helsdon in 1784 in St Dunstan Stepney and they then lived in Bethnal Green.
Ben
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Ben the parish records for Mouilleron are now online. I don't think they were last year when we went through the Moncoutant records for the Fradins.
http://www.archinoe.net/cg85v6/etatcivil.php
Unfortunately though there is a big gap in the registers 1714-1737, which is probably the era you need (typical eh). But yes I'd say likely they were close relatives of the Morins.
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Hi Richard
Wait a minute - I just remembered Francis Fradin was from Moncoutant not Mouilleron. Jean Morin was and he was reconnaisanced in 1717 in La Patente Spitalfields.
Ben
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Hello Ben
Yes that's how I remember it the Morins were of Mouilleron. I think theres fair enough evidence there to say the Rivalets, Annereaus and Morins all came from there and were related, through blood and/or marriage. You might find Jean Morin in their parish records online, though it depends, as you'll remember from the Moncoutant records they only start appearing openly in the Catholic registers, often in the early days with disparaging remarks, i.e Calvinist heretics or born of a concubine, from around 1710 ish.
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Hi
I have found a few Morin baptisms but up to 1704 and no Jean yet. He joined the church in London in 1717. A Jeanne daughter of Pierre Morin was found as was a son of Jacques and Judith Morin. A Jacques Morin was a witness to Jeanne Morin's baptism.
Ben
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Whether you'll find him in the Mouilleron records Ben would depend I suppose largely on why he went through a reconnaissance in London, if it was because he was born a Catholic in France he may well be there. However given the obvious link of the Morins to lots of other Protestant families from same area in France, I think it's more likely he was born Protestant but forced to go to mass and renounce his Protestantism as an adult under duress, and if that is the case not likely a baptism that early (1685-95 ish) for a Protestant child in the Catholic registers will be found. He was likely baptised by his own Protestant minister, who may not have fled France at that point, and may still have been baptising in secret in homes etc, though they did so under threat of arrest and execution, and their temples will have of course have been closed down and in many cases demolished.
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Hi Richard
Would it be a good idea to check through Mouilleron registers up to 1717? Jean died in 1750 and is buried in Bethnal Green but no age is given however he must have been about 20 in 1717 when he had his reconnaissance.
Out of the two Francis Fradin's born in Moncoutant, it would be good to perhaps find a marriage of one of them in France or a burial which would eliminate one and the one who emigrated to London will no doubt be the other baptism.
Ben
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Hello Ben
He could have been any age when he went through his reconnaissance, but given he didn't marry and have children until a good few years after, I would have thought he was probably quite young 18-25 at best guess. It is certainly worth checking the registers, as he may have been given Catholic baptism, but as I say during that period for a Protestant child it is less likely than the latter period 1710 onwards. I had a brief look through them last night, 1692-1702 and noticed a couple of Morins, but no Jean Morin, and I didn't notice any baptism which would strike me as being to a Protestant couple.
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Hi Richard,
I have been reading your posts and was very interested to see you mention the Machu family.
I have not long discovered that my husband's Gt Gt Gt Grandmother was Catherine Elizabeth Machu b 1795 daughter to Jean Henri Machu and Suzanne Catherine Bantigny . Catherine married Nathaniel Eastland in 1817.
All of the information I have has come from family search IGI and ancestry receords as I live in Australia.
Would you be a able to point me in the right direction to find out more about this family. I know they were silk merchants and one line of the family did very well for themselves ( unfortunatley not Catherines).
Regards
Anne (Western Australia)
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Hello Richard
Well, firstly, profuse thanks to you for the time you've taken to look into and write in reply to my initial query. I am incredibly grateful to you for your kindness in helping me to progress this line of my tree, so kind. I am currently at work, and so not able to access my own files and reply in full, so I'll PM you later this evening when I'm back at home.
With thanks and very best wishes,
Steve
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Anne
The Machus were part of the latter wave of refugees from the town of Quievy, in the Cambresis. Most of the very last lot of refugess to England came from this village and nearby Wallincourt, where there were two very active Protestant temples and communities, and a very anti Protestant local Catholic Clergy.
The town has a website.
http://quievy.free.fr/index.html
I don't know how your French is but there is a very good section on the Protestants there (7 pages long) with photos of the Temple etc:
http://quievy.free.fr/protestant1.htm
There is also this site, a personal site by a Protestant of Quievy, which notes his family history and that of the town.
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/geneadavoine/
In addition Jean Paul Roellys excellent site on the Protestants of Picardy has a lot covering Quievy, and there are Machus mentioned on his site:
http://huguenots.picards.free.fr/donnees/cattelain/html/idx4d0.htm
http://huguenots.picards.free.fr/documents/etud1935.htm
http://huguenots.picards.free.fr/documents/quievy.pdf
Like most of the Protestants of this region they tended to trek across the border in disguise to celebrate their marriage at the Tournai Temple in Belgium. There are 9 Machu marriages there, all from Quievy:
15/02/1756 MACHU Jean Antoine of QUIEVY & DELWARD Marie Claire of QUIEVY
15/03/1761 MACHU Henry of QUIEVY & LEFEBVRE Marie Anne of MONTBREHAIN
08/11/1761 MACHU Jean Antoine of QUIEVY & LANGREND Marie Bertine of QUIEVY
04/07/1762 MACHU Jean Baptiste of QUIEVY & WATREMEZ Marie Angéliqueof QUIEVY
11/07/1762 MACHU Jacques Joseph of QUIEVY & GAUTIER Robertine Joseph of BETHENCOURT
15/09/1764 MACHU Jean François of QUIEVY & VILETTE Marie Philippe of QUIEVY
25/05/1765 MACHU Jean Philippe of QUIEVY & WAXIN Catherine Cécile of QUIEVY
09/06/1765 MACHU Michée of QUIEVY & MERESSE Marie Françoise of QUIEVY
31/10/1773 MACHU Pierre Antoine of QUIEVY & LORIAUX Marie Philippe of QUIEVY
The name is spelt variously in the English Huguenot records, Machu/Machue/Machut/Massu, but I believe is the same family, and where origin is given it is always Quievy, so I think it is a fair bet Jean Henri was originally of there.
These are the members who joined Threadneedle Street in London:
Machut, Jean Jacques, of Quievy in Flanders, Testimony of Monsieur Roy, 31 Aug 1740.
Massu, Jean Phillipe, by abjuration, 30 Sep 1750.
Massu, Abraham, Testimony of Monsieur Romilly, 25 May 1766.
Massu, Phillippe Jacques of Quievy in Cambrai, 31 March 1782.
The following three couples baptised children there:
Abraham Massu Jan 1 1749 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Marie Madeliane Massu Oct 24 1750 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Jacques Massu March 21 1754 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Jacques Massue Oct 6 1756 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Jean Massu March 3 1759 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Jacques Massu Feb 11 1759 to Jean Jacques Massu and Marie Madeliane.
Pierre Louis Machu Feb 10 1792 to Pierre Phillipe Machu and Marie Bantigny (Godmother Susanne Catherine Bantigny)
Pierre Henri Machu March 2 1794 to Pierre Phillipe Machu and Marie Bantigny. (Godfather Jean Henri Machu).
Jean Pierre Machu May 15 1796 to Pierre Phillipe Machu and Marie Bantigny.
Marie Ann Machu April 8 1798 to Pierre Phillipe Machu and Marie Bantigny. (Godfather Jean Henri Machu, Godmother Susanne Catherine Machu).
Marie Caroline Machu Dec 29 1799 to Pierre Phillipe Machu and Marie Bantigny.
Jean Henri Massu (altered to Machu) March 10 1793 to Jean Henri Machu and Susanne Catherine Bantigny.
Catherine Elizabeth Machu Sept 20 1795 to Jean Henri Machu and Susanne Catherine Bantigny .
Marie Machu Feb 4 1798 to Jean Henri Machu and Susanne Catherine Bantigny (Godfather Pierre Phillipe Machu, Godmother Marie Machu).
Sara Machu Oct 13 1799 to Jean Henri Machu and Susanne Catherine Bantigny (Godmother Marie Machu).
Jacques Louis Machu Jan 23 1803 to Jean Henri Machu and Susanne Catherine Bantigny .
In addition Jean Henri Machu is Mentioned in a couple of trials at the central criminal courts in London (whether the father or the son I do not know) with his witness statements. They can be read online here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=uq0DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA575&dq=%22John+henry+machu%22&lr=&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%22John%20henry%20machu%22&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a4DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=%22John+henry+machu%22&lr=&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22John%20henry%20machu%22&f=false
Hope that helps
Richard
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Hello Richard
Well, firstly, profuse thanks to you for the time you've taken to look into and write in reply to my initial query. I am incredibly grateful to you for your kindness in helping me to progress this line of my tree, so kind. I am currently at work, and so not able to access my own files and reply in full, so I'll PM you later this evening when I'm back at home.
With thanks and very best wishes,
Steve
No problem at all Steve, happy to be of help. I have a particular interest in these latter wave of refugees to London, my own ancestor being among them, and it tends to get overlooked, in favour of the larger waves that came 1680-1720. I have even read accounts where it has been stated that all Huguenot immigration to England had ceased by 1740, which as you see is absolutely not the case!
Best Regards
Richard
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Anne
Interesting point, I noticed your Jean Henri Machu and his wife only ever appear as godparents outside their own family once, the baptism of Steve's family member Jean Henri Vasseur in 1795 (named after his godfather Jean Henri Machu?). In addition your husbands ancestor Catherine Machu's godfather was a Daniel Le Bailley. He was a master silk weaver, and my own ancestor Julien Francois Bellenger, was his apprentice (both their families were original from Athis, in Normandy and came over in the 1750's). So all 3 of our ancestors obviously used the church at same time and knew each other quite well. Thought I would mention this as it shows just how small and insular the French Huguenot community in London had become by 1780's and 1790's!
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard & Allan,
Thankyou so much for your replies . I have a lot to look at now. Sees so strange that you Richard are helping with my queries yet our ancestors were probable close friends. If they could see us now.
Richard, you mention a Gt Gt Granddaugher of Jean Henri Machu . Do you think she might want contact from a cousin?
Once again thankyou so much
Anne
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Hello Anne.
It is a strange thought our ancestors rubbing shoulders so long ago, and us here swapping notes on them, does make you wonder what they would have made of it all!
I went back through my notes and actually the lady I was thinking of was researching the Gransart family, who were also of Quievy and came over with this last wave of refugees. I did research the Machu's when I had a thread running on another website (not sure if you can name them here...), but have just found it and it was for an Anne so it may have been yourself also (about 2 years ago).
Regards
Richard
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Hi Richard
I was reading about Ben's progress on the Fradins and Morin. I hope Ben sees this note. I am pleased that at least we known where some of our common Huguenot ancestors came from. (By the way, if anyone is interested, the novel 'Angelique in Revolt' one of a well regarded series of French historical novels by Sergeanne Golon is partly set in the Poitou region of the 1670s among Huguenot families).
But that is not why I write. Matilda Auber (my grandmother's grandmother and descendant of the Fradins) married a George Rowley in 1868. The Rowleys were from Pattingham, S. Staffordshire, but otherwise nothing remarkable as far as I know.
Two things: I recall noticing that Pattingham parish records seem to have some significance with the Huguenot Society. Do you know if this is correct, and if so, eaxctly why - apart fom the obvious?
I had also come across JP Roelly's website (the London Fradins are listed on the site interestingly).
Could the Pattingam Rowleys also be of Huguenot descent? I have no reason to think they were, but I have been puzzled by George's marriage to someone from the Hoxton/ Clerkenwell area.
I would like you opinion, Richard.
Cheers.
PaulW
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Hello Paul
I can't say I am personally aware of the Huguenot link to Pattingham. I have not come across this info before myself. I would have thought though by that late a date 1868, a seperate 'Huguenot' community marrying within their own, and over great distances, was more or less a thing of the past, even for the latter refugees. The Huguenot Society was set up to increase knowledge of the Huguenots as a historical people in London only a decade and a bit after this.
Regards
Richard
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Richard
It is a late date and there is no obvious Huguenot connection back to the 1860s. The surname Rowley may be a local name. JP Roelly's website though is nevertheless an interesting co-incidence.
Paul W
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Rowley/Roelly agree is a coincidence. Perhaps it does have a French origin and was one of those the Normans bought over..
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Richard
You are probably right, but I wll keep an eye open for any leads.
Paul w
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The name I am researching is TUTCHIN which is prominent in BKM and DEV from 1540's and appears with several variants such as TOUCHIN;TUCHIN;TWICHINGE etc which is understandable.
Also in London there are TYCHEN (two baptisms 1609 and 1612) and TUTCHINGE (two more baptisms 1613 and 1614) with the same parents recorded at St Dunstan's Stepney whilst at St Botolph Bishopsgate and St James Clerkenwell there are several with more name variations,within what appears to be the same stock with names like TOUTCHIN and TUTCHING and TOUCHEN from 1620 to the late 1700's all within a very narrow (1.5 mile) radius.
I can find no evidence that the name(s) were from a Huguenot source .... but it sounds perhaps(?) likely.
There is an odd one though which is the baptism of Pier TEUCHIN at the Walloon or strangers church in January 1699 and his father was Isaac.
Any input or advice would be much appreciated.
Joe
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Hello Joe
I cannot say it is a name I have come across before in my own researches (mostly London based) into the Huguenot communities in England. If the name was already prominent in England as early as the 1540's I'd say that probably points strongly against a Huguenot origin. Edward VI put the first charter in place late that decade (1547) for the the first French Protestant Church to be set up in England, at London (Threadneedle Street), so this is the very earliest possible date for any refugees. But very few would have come until the religious wars broke out in France 1562-1598 and even these did not leave a particularly lasting impact as many returned to France after them. The vast majority of Britians Huguenot families would instead be traceable to those who came from the late 1670's onwards during the later persecutions under Louis XIV.
Regards
Richard
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Thank you Richard ....... that allows me to refocus on saxon origins.
Much appreciated.
Joe
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Joboy,
Just seen your posting about Tutchins. My Tutchins come from Bridport in Dorset, which might be a lead worth following.
Happy hunting,
Emma.
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[Post no.2]
Excuse me chaps and chapesses; just getting to three posts for this account in order to activate the personal messaging...
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[post no.3]
Apologies again.
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Hi everyone,
Hope you don't mind me crashing in on your discussions regarding the above subject, but I have been tracing my French family of GOULLEE (wood carvers/cabinet makers/weavers) for some time now. My ancestor Timothy Goullee came over around the late 1600's and settled in the Spitalfields/Bethnal Green and surrounding parishes. I too have mention of a Marie VASSEUR who married Pierre Finet, had daughter Marie Magdelaine 1720 who married Paul Bachellier 1742, had daughter Elisabeth 1754 who married Gilbert Goullee, the family I am researching. I have heaps of records on Gilbert's side but the one thing that eludes me is a baptism for him, and therefore parents (I have an idea but need confirmation). I have a record of his marriage, in 1837 there is a mention of him at the French Hospital age 82, in 1841 census at 85, and death in 1846 at 92, making his birth between 1754 and 1756. I can't get to the London records in person and would really appreciate any help there is out there. I have trawled online as many records as possible.
Thanks guys,
Val
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How does one determine between which are Huguenot and those who were Norman?.
I find ancestral names in both camps which is a worry considering the timeline was many hundreds of years apart.
Joe
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Hi, I also have a similar help request. My Huguenot surname is Gruzelier & they settled in Cornwall in the latter part of the 1600's. Anne Gruzelier was born in Madron, Cornwall in 1701 to parents Jean Gruzelier (b1670) & Magdalene Bilbau (b1680). That is the only information I have & researching Huguenot genealogy is a new venture for me, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
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I think it was you, Richard, that made such a difference to my research when I gave you the name Denoa and you said you thought it should be Deniord
Can you tell me if there are any recordson the death of William Deniord born around 1848. He was living in Bethnal Green at the time and on the death cert it states he died from a violent injury. But was accidently. I think it said to " wrist"
He died in London hospital on 21feb 1873.Coroners report 22feb 1873
I have tried to find out from the records office also newspaper offices, but I dont have any subscriptions to them.
Also I cant find anything on his son, William, born 1868c , only on the 1871 census in bethnal green.
Thank you again.
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Hi
My Huguenot ancestors came to London inbetween 1685 and 1752. The last one was a Francois Fradin who came to England in 1752, wed in 1759 and died in 1803. I have Auber ancestors who also used the name variant of Obey.
Ben
Hi Ben, I'm even newer to rootschat (today). I too am looking for huguenot links to my family. I think it is Wallis from Haverhill (who were baptised in Canterbury (non-conformist) but also have Fairweather in Suffolk (Saxtead mainly).
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Hi, I also have a similar help request. My Huguenot surname is Gruzelier & they settled in Cornwall in the latter part of the 1600's. Anne Gruzelier was born in Madron, Cornwall in 1701 to parents Jean Gruzelier (b1670) & Magdalene Bilbau (b1680). That is the only information I have & researching Huguenot genealogy is a new venture for me, so any help would be greatly appreciated.
I think I can help , my g'grandfather Thomas Gruzelierwas born in 1733 his parents were Jean Gruzelier and magdalene Bilbaude this part of the family settled in Stoke Demeral Devon
Regards Maureen
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For Elfinblues . Hello there and welcome to the world of Ancestry on Rootschat . May i suggest a good website called The Huguenots of Spitalfields as a starter for your research . I myself have Huguenot ancestors who fled to London/Essex going back 9 generations.. My 10th G Grandfather was a French Cleric Jacob de Rouffignac and i have many documents about this Family from the Ancestry website. Family history is a never ending journey of discovery and well worth the time. Good luck with your research .