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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: pinkie6 on Wednesday 17 February 10 04:39 GMT (UK)
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have found yet another couple of names for my elusive gtgtgt grandmother!! she was also know as,
Emma Rundle
Emily Ryan
Emily Snook/s
catherine Emily Ryan
Emma Runnle
Emelia Randell
Emily Randall
Emily Wall
Emily O'neil
Emily Runnle
Emelia Snooks
M Snook,
These names are all found on certs from BDM, i am wondering how she kept up with all the names she used!! does anyone have this woman anywhere in their tree??!!!!
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Hi pixie
Just adding the link to your other (earlier) thread re: Emma ... as you've given good background info which may help others identify with the family names. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,323194.html
~ Lu
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thanx lucy, I am not puter savvy so cheers for adding the link :)
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Hi Pixie
That's okay .... just thought it would save you repeating everything, on this new thread. :D
* Do you want us to "have a crack" at sorting out Emma ?
~ Lu
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hi Lucy, I would love to have help with this, although after 20yrs of searching it might be tough to crack as you can see with all her names etc!!!! and I am running out of places to look!!! if any of you awesome people can lend a hand i would be most grateful as Emily has proven to be one of the most difficult to search and also that of her descendants, she was my gtgtgt grandmother, so yes please to any help with this!!!!
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Hi pixie
Have read through the various other info you've posted and done a bit more digging based on that. Will post some questions for you shortly. ;)
* In the meantime, can you tell us what this "WALL - ALBERRY" connection is please ?
[It puzzles me greatly as I can't see how it relates to Emma ?? ]
~ Lu
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Those 2 names are a couple more maiden names emily used that are from bdm certs i recently sent for.
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Hi pixie
Okay ... first of all I can't see much wrong with all the spelling variations for RUNDLE. :)
You say on the other thread, that Emma was "not able to write" ? So obviously she would have relied on others to get "the spelling of her name correct".
Also when you think about how a name sounded when it was spoken (all the speech variations you get with say, people from different parts of England) ... that may have caused the surname to be recorded incorrectly.
OR ... maybe these old records, with their swirly handwriting, have been mis-transcribed at some point ?
The letter "u" and a lower-case "a" for example, are often mistaken.
"SNOOK / SNOOKS" ... an "s" has been added to the end of name. Probably the result - again of old-fashioned handwriting being mis-read .... lots of words were written with a flourish or upstroke at the end .... often it looked like an "s" had been added.
It's likely that Emma didn't deliberately misrepresent her name(s) ... and as these variants are spread over birth, death and marriage records for other family members, then it's quite normal for these "oddities" to occur.
~ Lu
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... Emma / Emily / Emelia / Emilia
Yip ... these are all interchangeable with each other. ;)
[I've got one in my tree too - baptised Emily / married as Emma / buried as Emilia. ]
* Can you tell us exactly when she used the names
WALL ... ALBERRY ??
* What certificate are these names shown on ??
~ Lu
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Hi again
As I read from your other thread, amongst all the other researchers of Emma, collectively you have a great many BDM records ... but you don't yet have information for Emma's last-born child ?
I'm guessing that child is "Eliza SNOOK - birth registered 1885 - parents: Emily and James". ???
I think it would be worthwhile purchasing the birth printout for Eliza. ;)
Reason: After 1880, more information was collected for births .... and on a record from 1885, the birthplaces of the parents are also listed.
~ Lu
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hi there, i do have eliza snooks birth and marriage certs. Emily born in new plymouth, james born in dorset England.
when emily and james's eldest daughter married emily put down wall as her maiden name, on her other childrens marriage certs she is Ryan or the different versions of rundle/randell/randall/runnle/rundel etc as her maiden name.
with the children born to john o'neil she is down as Alberry as her maiden name, and ryan on another.
emily died in 1900 aged 57 so was born early 1840's.
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and also on the certs emily was down as born in new plymouth, which is also on her ist intention to marry cert in 1857 when she married john ryan.
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As for snook/s, some of that family used snook some used snooks, ex: my gtnan used snooks and the eldest snook/s daughter used snooks and told her famly it was snooks, emily is buried as snooks also and in other instances james used snooks, i know what you say about other people recording the info but i wonder how she ended up with so many maiden surnames, can not find marriages/births etc to link her to them? have spent much time trawling all different variations of her names on bdm.
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when emily and james's eldest daughter married emily put down wall as her maiden name,
on her other childrens marriage certs she is Ryan or the different versions of rundle/randell/randall/runnle/rundel etc as her maiden name.
with the children born to john o'neil she is down as Alberry as her maiden name, and ryan on another.
Hi pixie
Cheers for that.
The thing is though, that on these marriage records for her children, it is not Emily herself who is providing the information ... it is the bride and groom (the son or daughter of Emily).
As Emily (Emma) had had two marriages (and a relationship with Mr O'Neill) ... then it can be understood there might be confusion amongst her children, as to which of Emily's surnames was in fact her maiden name. :)
And any children who married after her death, wouldn't have had the benefit of asking their Mum. Nowadays we'd all be able to quote our mother's maiden name ... but things were so much simpler back then, and having that knowledge, wouldn't have been a priority.
Emily Randall
Emily Wall
Emily O'neil
The "WALL" and "ALBERRY" names seem odd ???
Although, when I look at the names grouped together as above ... I can see that if badly written on a document, "wall" could possibly be "o'neill" ? ::)
~ Lu
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hi there, i do have eliza snooks birth and marriage certs. Emily born in new plymouth, james born in dorset England.
emily died in 1900 aged 57 so was born early 1840's.
Hi pixie
You'll be thinking by now that I'm a terrible nitpicker ! :D
[Really though it just about considering other possibilities ... and thinking "outside of the square". ]
Emily (Emma) doesn't seem to have been connected to the Richard RUNDLE family of Taranaki, does she ?
[I expect you have already seen Richard RUNDLE's very detailed obituary which was published in the "Taranaki Herald" - 12 February 1894 ? And none of his children were of an age to have been a parent to Emily.]
1840-ish is very early for a New Zealand birth ... and if Emily was born in New Plymouth, you'd be hopeful there might be some evidence of that ... perhaps a church baptism record, a mention of a father or mother in some other record .... perhaps some siblings ? So the other thing to consider, is that Emily was born elsewhere (despite "New Plymouth" being shown on the ITM and marriage / birth records. )
I wonder if this might be her ?
FREE BMD (UK)
BIRTHS - JUNE - 1839
RUNDLE - Emily
Registered at Plymouth (Devon) ???
~ Lu
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.... there was also this listing.
FREE BMD (UK)
BIRTHS - JUNE 1841
RUNDLE - Emma
Registered at Kingsbridge (Devon) ???
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Pixie ... did Emily's children have any distinctive christian names ?
* Can you list the children's names please ?
It might be worth checking out the UK for 1851 to see if Emily can be found ?
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Hi there, it is definitely Wall on emily's eldest daughters marriage cert.
The children she had with james snook/s are as follows 9and no worries about your 'nitpicking' lol, be good to dort this!!)
emily catherine/catherine emily born feb 1870 patea, married william parker
ellen/helen born 31-7-1876 patea married first to william carradus then mr hickey
william john born 20-101878 patea haven't found any info on what happened to him?
elesha/alicia/alice born 1880 patea had a family with william gerrand
eliza born 1885 patea married alfred gill.
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so far we have not found any record of her parents, or mention of any other place of birth except new plymouth, from memory i looked up many emma rundles in england for the timeline of her birth, on her husbands death cert she is as emily catherine ryan, so catherine her middle name. cheers for this help lucy.
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i am wondering how i would narrow it down to find the exact surname for emily, as she used so many different variations, as for her not writing I do have one birth certs for one of her children/grandchildren (from memory) to say that she had informed in writing the evidence of registration, she used Alberry and Ryan as maiden surnames for the births of children with john o'neil, we know ryan was her first husbands surname, but Wall was out of the blue for her eldest daughters marriage and she was still alive when her daughter married.
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I do have one birth certs for one of her children/grandchildren (from memory) to say that she had informed in writing the evidence of registration,
Hi pixie
Just before answering your other question(s) .... can you tell us exactly what it is, that is written on the certificate you mention above ? [It might be of real importance ? :D ]
~ Lu
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hi lucy, it was on a grandaughter of emily's birth cert in 1894 (for the descrition of informant bit), it says, 'agent duly authorised in writing by emma snook who was present at birth', i doubt they have kept the writing at bdm as i know prior to 1972 they had not kept evidence of registrations as the bdm lady told me. ex:, when i got grandads birth (he wasn't regd til he was 30yrs old in 1950) there was a signed affidavit but that was not kept and that is when the bdm lady said about eveidence like that not being kept, so i guess we may never know as on other certs emily's mark, signature is a x!!
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Hi pixie
Cheers. That info's helpful, as it clarifies that even by 1894, Emma was not able to write.
I should think also, that she was probably unable to read as well, and this is why the variations in the spelling of her surname have occurred ?
I don't think that Emma (Emily) has deliberately set out to be deceptive, but just that she has had to rely on other people to get the spelling of her name (more or less) correct. [And who knows, the people who helped her out in this regard, might only have guessed at a particular spelling. ?)
~ Lu
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i am wondering how i would narrow it down to find the exact surname for emily,
Okay ... to narrow this down.
The only certs. (or printouts) you should really pay attention to (at this point), are those where Emma (Emily) was in a position to offer information, herself. [Those for which she has provided the information - firstly at her marriages, and then at the births of her children.]
* Marriage to John RYAN - 1857 Emma RUNDLE
* Marriage to James SNOOK(s) - 1869 Emily RYAN
So, what maiden name has she given on her second marriage to Mr. SNOOK(s) ????
~ Lu
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... and her children's births.
* What maiden name is given for Emma, on these ?
[I'm presuming you have all the birth records - doesn't matter though if you don't. ]
emily catherine/catherine emily -- born feb 1870 patea,
ellen/helen -- born 31-7-1876 patea
william john -- born 20-101878 patea
elesha/alicia/alice -- born 1880 patea
eliza -- born 1885 patea
* And ... what is the name of the informant to each of these births.
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ok the maiden name when marrying james snook/s was Ryan understandable as she was widowed when john ryan vc winner died in 1863.
maiden names on her childrens birth are as follows,
catherine emily mother emily snook nee Randall. informant j snook father.
ellen/helen mother emily snook formerly ryan informant james snook father.
william john 9i haven't found him yet to send for cert)
elesha/alicia/alice mother emily snook nee rundel informant not given on the cert i have.
eliza mother emily snook nee rundle. informant emily snook.
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i cannot seem to find william john, a date i had was 20/10/1878 but cannot find it on the bdm historical records site and haven't yet found a marriage or death for him.
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Oooh ... you were quick with that reply. :) [I'd just had to race off to try and unblock a drain ... bleedin' thing !]
Well looking at that info, I think I would be plumping for
RUNDLE. :)
* Was the first husband, John RYAN, able to read and write (or did he also sign "his X mark") ?
~ Lu
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hehe have been doing this a long time hence the quick reply had to get all the paperwork out! damn drains, know what u mean, anyway on the marriage cert of john ryan and emily they both have made their mark as X, so john ryan couldn't write either!.
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i have thought maybe emily was an illigitimate daughter of richard rundle? as richard and his wife ann nee veale had all their children accounted for and an extensive history has been published on his family, i think richard had another brother come out but from all the tree i was given there is no one matching up to be emily.
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Hi pixie
Ah ha, .... was rather hoping John RYAN was one who could read and write. :D Drat.
The thing is though, here you have a very young girl (Emma), who didn't have permission from a near relative (or anybody else) to marry ... all alone (apparently), .... in New Plymouth.
I don't know much about the wars (or soldiers) in the 'Naki area, in those very early years, but I do wonder if Emma might have arrived in NZ as a family member of a soldier perhaps ?
Someone must have known her, known her name and how to spell it ?
~ Lu
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i have thought maybe emily was an illigitimate daughter of richard rundle? as richard and his wife ann nee veale had all their children accounted for and an extensive history has been published on his family, i think richard had another brother come out but from all the tree i was given there is no one matching up to be emily.
I haven't looked too closely at Richard RUNDLE's background, except that his obituary painted him as a fine upstanding character who'd had an education. [I'd doubted if Emma had been of that RUNDLE branch - because unless she'd been abandoned by them, then she too would probably have had an education of sorts.]
Hmmm. Still lots to ponder. ;D
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I haven't yet seen any other rundles with her in their tree for nz, with the rundles being in new plymouth the same time as her one can imagine all sorts of scenarios eh!
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hi lucy2, was wondering if you had pondered over this since last time?
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Hi pinkie6,
I'm answering in the hope that Lucy2 will read it and respond to you.
spades
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thanx ;p :)