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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: johnP-bedford on Tuesday 16 February 10 08:32 GMT (UK)
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I have Louisa Lugsdin who married Boaz Sabey at Little Staughton on 23 Mar 1849, he was 30 father Samuel Sabey; she was 21 father Robert Lugsdin.
I am looking for the marriage of father Robert, The IGI has a birth for him on 18 Sept 1806 at Little Staughton Baptist; father William & Mary.
Thanks John
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Hi John
Per Hunts Marriage Index
1825 Robert Thomas Lugsden of Lt Staughton married Sarah Gray at Gt Staughton
David
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Thanks David, Any other Lugsden from Little Staughton that were married in Hunts
Also can you find Louise & her parents on 1841 census
cheers John
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David, if you're looking at this...in 1841
?? could it be family transcribed with surname English - that I cannot make out at all..
HO107/ Piece 7 Book 15; Folio: 6; Page: 6
Little Staughton
Found them on 1851; Robert age 44 Farmer of 7 acres, born LS; wife Sarah age 47 born Croxton, Cambs, children Sarah age 12, Eliza age 9 & William age 4 all born LS
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Hi John
Just had a look at the 1841 CDRom set, which whilst faint is quite legible
Robert Lugsden 30 Ag lab Y
Sarah Lugsden 35 N
Louisa Lugsden 14 Y
Martha Lugsden 11 Y
Sarah Lugsden 2 Y
I've put in a correction on Ancestry
Don't like the gap between the last two children. 2nd marriage possibly?
No other Lt Staughton marriages in Hunts but in 1807 James of Gt Staughtom marrried Charlotte Ladds at Catworth
All the best
David
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Thanks for the 1841 decyphering
Did your 1841 reveal a John (English) age 70 & Sarah age 60 living next door or in same household as is on the Ancestry transcription.
John
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Yes, they were actually enumerated as Sanders. The third one in the family was Matilda 12, and it was a separate house to the Lugsdens.
I've put in a correction to Ancestry - there were a LOT of mistranscriptions on that page, ages as well as names
David
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Per family letters, Robert Thorn(e) Lugsdin died in Little Staughton when his son William was a boy. William was taken from a solicitor's office and apprenticed to a tailor as a boy. Robert's wife was indeed Sarah Grey/Gray.
Robert Thorn Lugsdin's father was James Lugsdin, who died on 2.4.1853. His will is dated 20.1.1853 and his then address was York Terrace, Peckham . His wife was Margaret.
Robert's siblings are believed to be William, Ann (m Excell) and Deborah (m Amos Goodliffe - executor).
I have further details of William's descendants.
Graham
Australia
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Hello Graham & welcome to RootsChat....
So if your Robert Lugsdin's father was James of Peckham; then he's not the same Robert born 1807 Little Staughton, parents William & Mary ?
cheers John
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G'day John and thanks for referring me to this v useful site!
then he's not the same Robert born 1807 Little Staughton, parents William & Mary
That's correct - Robert was son of James and Margaret. James in his Will leaves a "cottage and buildings with piece of land containing 5 acres at Little Staughton".
Old letters indicate this subsequently became the Village Farm Public House.
On my tree I do have a William b 1772 m 2/5/1796 Mary Ell, however I have no sibling info on my tree for them - maybe your Robert Thomas fitted in here?
William b 1772 had a brother James, from whom I am descended.
I am unable to trace James and Margaret into my tree.
Will continue digging.
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Hi Graham,
To stop any confusion , is your Robert & son William, the same family as we've found on 1841 & 1851 census ? In 1861 I have found a William Lugsden, age 14 and apprentice tailor & draper living in Eaton Socon. If I was unaware of your information I would have claimed him as the son of Robert & Sarah.
As to William Lugsden & Mary Ells; I notice on the new Bedford Archive search facility
http://apps.bedscc.gov.uk/bedsccis3/search.aspx
a marriage licence of William Lugsden of Little Staughton & Mary Ell of Henlow dated 2 May 1796.... & another of him to Elizabeth Ell dated 22 Feb 1796... couldn't he decide....
David - can you check Henlow PRs. thanks,
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Marriages at Henlow
23 Feb 1796 William Luxden (signs Lugsdin) of Lt Staughton & Elizabeth Ell
3 May 1796 William Lugsdin of Lt Staughton & Mary Ell
There's no sign of a burial of Elizabeth which might rule out it being the same William. Was there more than one William in Lt Staughton at the time? (It's early, school hols, brain not working!)
David
In fact I can't see burials in Beds for any of them
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is your Robert & son William, the same family as we've found on 1841 & 1851 census ?
Yes he is of the same family. Louisa having married in 1849 had moved out by 1851 presumably. I can only presume that the Louisa you are looking for comes from this line, grand dau of Robert Thorn Lugsdin not grand dau Robert Thomas Lugsdin.
In 1861 I have found a William Lugsden, age 14 and apprentice tailor & draper living in Eaton Socon. If I was unaware of your information I would have claimed him as the son of Robert & Sarah.
Correct
As to William Lugsden & Mary Ells; I notice on the new Bedford Archive search facility
http://apps.bedscc.gov.uk/bedsccis3/search.aspx
a marriage licence of William Lugsden of Little Staughton & Mary Ell of Henlow dated 2 May 1796.... & another of him to Elizabeth Ell dated 22 Feb 1796... couldn't he decide....
These are two separate Williams - William who married Ell 22 feb 1796 (father James Lugsdin , mother Marey Dobey) did infact remarry, but to Sarah Thorns of Eaton Socon on 12 Jul 1802. I have compared the two signatures and they are the same and in the second marriage of 1802 William is described as a widower.
William who married Ell 2 May 1796 had parents of William Lugsdin and Mary Sumpter.
So you can see how confusing it gets!
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Graham, To recap... put me right if I'm wrong..
The only info I have is my Louisa Lusden married Boaz Sabey in LS on 28/3/1849 - her father was Robert, she was 21 so born 1828. The only Louisa Lugsden with father Robert (& wife Sarah) I've found in 1841 is the one transcribed as English by Ancestry. It was Robert Thomas Lugsdin that married Sarah Gray in 1825 & they also had William who became the apprentice tailor age 14 on 1861 census.
Robert Lugsden was born 18/9/1806 (IGI says this is extracted entry from LS baptist church) parents William & Mary (who is the Mary Ell of Henlow) married 3 May 1796. This couple also had George 22/1/1797, Mary 5/11/1799 & William 21/3/1805.
William (who married Mary Ell) had brother James 2/3/1777 & they were sons of William & Mary Sumpter. James married Edith Howard & had son John 1819 at Riseley who went off to Australia.
So where does Robert Thorn Lugsden & parents James & Margaret fit in with the above?
cheers John
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Hi John,
Just reread the Will of James married to Margaret. In it it lists the beneficiaries as DB and DS with Robert T as a DB (descendent of a brother). So that removes James and Margaret from the equation. Robert Thorn Lugsdin and Robert Thomas Lugsdin are assumed to be one and the same, with a transription error by Ancestry.
Refence to Robert Thorn Lugsdin comes from a 1929 letter from his grandson - (can't see how to attach to this post).
Cheers,
Graham
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There are references to William, James & Robert Thorns Lugsdin on the Bedford Archive Website
http://blars.adlibsoft.com/beginner/indnms.html
tyoe in LUGSDEN & press <search> to get a list & then select on the names
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As it's Wednesday went to library & archives....
From the non-conformists' records of Little Staughton baptist church.
birth 2/3/1777 James, son of William & Mary Lugsden of Little Staughton
birth 18/9/1806 Robert Williamson, son of blank & blank Lugsden of Little Staughton
birth 22/1/1797 George son of William & Mary Lugsden of Pertenhall
birth 5/11//1799 Mary daughter of William & Mary Lugsden of Pertenhall
birth 21/3/1805 William son of William & Mary Lugsden of Pertenhall
If these entries are the basis of the IGI extracted entries how come they have Robert with correct birthdate, but don't mention the 'Williamson' bit & then contrive that his parents are William & Mary.
So we have 2 families of William Lugsdens, one in Little Staughton & one in Pertenhall; This does tie up nicely from the 1803 Muster Lists, where the one in Pertenhall is class 2, a farmer age 31 with 2 children under 10; and the one in Little Staughton is class 4, a husbandman.
Also found a book in library about the Little Staughton Meeting House by H G Tibbutt, published in 1951 & it states that eight persons joined together on 10 June 1766 to set up the baptist church in Little Staughton, which included William Lugsden, Mary Lugsden, Ann Lugsden. Later James Lugsden joined the congregation, & William with James & William Peppercorn established the church.
So as the Lugsdens were baptists, does this explain why their marriages were done by licence ?
more on that later
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The "Thorn" middle name seems to have been continued with Albert Thorns Lugsdin born/died March quarter 1868 (unless Thorns is a mistranscription of Thomas!)
Where has Ancestry mistranscribed Thorn?
David
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Interesting...Found in the Methodist baptisms - St Neots circuit register
Albert Thomas Lugsdin, parents William & Elizabeth Lugsden of St Neots
baptised 31/1/1868 born 11/1/1868
Rosa Anne Thorns Lugsdin, parents William & Eilzabeth of Potton
baptised 25/12/1869 born 15/7/1869
Perhaps it is Thorns & when being transcribed if its male then it must be Thomas
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Albert is on the GRO index as Thorns
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William who married Ell 22 feb 1796 (father James Lugsdin , mother Marey Dobey) did infact remarry, but to Sarah Thorns of Eaton Socon on 12 Jul 1802.
Looking at one of the BLARS documents that John found (ref BD1171/1-5 ) the marriage date is given as 13 July 1802, with the 12th being the date of the licence if the member submission on the IGI is to be believed.
You've obviously seen the entry Graham, if you've compared signatures. Can you confirm whether the marriage date is the 12th or 13th?
David (I have the same Boaz Sabey in my tree)
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David (I have the same Boaz Sabey in my tree)
So..... I expect that means we're related somehow ! >:(
Anyway marriage licences
2/7/1802 William Lugsden of LS, farmer, widower to marry Sarah Thorns of Eaton Socon; surety given by Francis Hobson, miller of Eaton Socon. Marriage 13/7/1802
9/1/1813 James Lugsden of Little Staughton, widower to Editha Howard of LS
marriage at LS on 22/1/1813 witnesses William Ladds & Rhoda Ell
2/7/1831 Ladds William Lugsdin of Riseley to Pricilla Worth Swannell of LS, with consent of acting trustee, S Knight & mother Pricilla Knight
marriage at LS 6/7/1831 witnesses Mary Swannell, George Wells & James Ebenezer? Swannell
18/4/1843 James Lugsdin of Riseley to Mary Stonebanks of Sharnbrook
marriage at Sharnbrook 18/4/1843 his father just says Lugsden
25/11/1843 Joseph Topham of Eaton Socon to Eliza Lugsden of Riseley
marriage at Riseley 28/11/1843 her father James Lugsden
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Interesting...Found in the Methodist baptisms - St Neots circuit register
Albert Thomas Lugsdin, parents William & Elizabeth Lugsden of St Neots
baptised 31/1/1868 born 11/1/1868
Rosa Anne Thorns Lugsdin, parents William & Eilzabeth of Potton
baptised 25/12/1869 born 15/7/1869
Perhaps it is Thorns & when being transcribed if its male then it must be Thomas
Albert and Rosa were siblings to Montague William Lugsdin, Robert John Lugsdin and George Harry Lugsdin - children of William and grandchildren to Robert Thorns Lugsdin and Sarah Grey.
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There are references to William, James & Robert Thorns Lugsdin on the Bedford Archive Website
http://blars.adlibsoft.com/beginner/indnms.html
tyoe in LUGSDEN & press <search> to get a list & then select on the names
In the reference to Robert Thorns Lugsdin it states Ref BD1167-1168 his father was William whose father was James whose father was James.
As we know, William remarried Sarah Thorns 13 Jul 1802. The only birth for a Robert is for Robert Williamson in the Little Staughton Baptist Register. Could Williamson mean William's son??.
Anyway Ref BD1171/1-5 cites the "Certificate of Birth of Robt. Lugsden, 18 Sept 1806, son of the above". Above is a reference to "Certificate of marr. of Wm. Lugsden of Lt. Staughton, widower & Sarah Thorns, 13 July 1802.
So there we have it and I am related to both of you!!!. Many thanks for your help
Graham
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So Robert Thorms/Thomas Lugsden is son, born 18/9/1806, of William Lugsden & Sarah Thorns who married by licence at LS on 13 July 1802. William then was buied 1826.
We know William was a widower at this marriage,
......so who was his first wife, when did they marry, when did she die.
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We know William was a widower at this marriage,
......so who was his first wife, when did they marry, when did she die.
First wife was Elizabeth Ell, b 21/2/1772, m 23/2/1796 Henlow, death unknown
Graham
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I thought who the 'ell are the Ells & how are they linking to Lugsden
We have 2 marriage licences for Henlow
William Lugsdin to Mary Ell on 2/5/1796
William Lugsdin to Elizabeth Ell 22/2/1796
On both of these surety was given by John Ell, farmer of Henlow
On the marriage of James Lugsdin to Editha Howard in 1813, we have witness Rhoda Ell
Mary, Elizabeth & Rhoda are all children og John & Elizabeth Ell, baptised at Henlow, who also 7 other children baptised there between 1768 & 1783, including 2 James Sumpter Ell (in 1776 & 1777 so I assume first one died)
Found 3 member submissions on IGI for marriage of John Ell to Elizabeth Sumpter at Graveley, Cambs on 18/11/1760 (one member thinks Graveley is in Cumberland so they need a course in England's geography)
Where's this going --- a William Lugsden married Mary Sumpter at Graveley on 7/5/1764
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Both Graveley marriages are on the PR transcript so are OK. William Lugsdin was of Lt Staughton. Both John Ell and Elizabeth Sumpter were otp
I'll have a look at the Henlow angle a bit later.
David
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William Lugsdin m Mary Sumpter
Son William m Mary Ell
Son James m Editha Howard
William Lugsdin (who m Mary Sumpter) had a brother James m Mary Dobey
Son William m1 Elizabeth Ell, m2 Sarah Thorns
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I thought who the 'ell are the Ells & how are they linking to Lugsden
I think Henlow may be a red herring, as whilst John & Elizabeth Ell lived there they were the first Ells in Henlow. John may have been baptised in Graveley in 1731 - but this John may have married Eleanor in 1755 in Graveley, amd I can't find a burial for her. Still working on them
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Also found a book in library about the Little Staughton Meeting House by H G Tibbutt, published in 1951 & it states that eight persons joined together on 10 June 1766 to set up the baptist church in Little Staughton, which included William Lugsden, Mary Lugsden, Ann Lugsden. Later James Lugsden joined the congregation, & William with James & William Peppercorn established the church.
John, was there any mention of Sabeys in the book?
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John, was there any mention of Sabeys in the book?
David, I can't say if it was or not.... I only sight-scanned the pages & was just pleased to see Lugsden name appearing. I can recheck at the weekend if I go into town.
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more marriage licences noted yesterday....
31/09/1172 Ann Lugsden of LS age 23 to marry Thomas Brawne, farmer of Raunds, Northants.
Surety by William Hall, cordwainer of Bedford
09/02/1785 Ann Lugsden, daughter of William of LS, minor to marry William Wiles, farmer of Eaton Socon.
Surety by William Lugsden, farmer of LS
13/03/1784 James Lugsdin of LS stood sutety for Thomas Flanders, carpenter of LS & Mary Lugddin, daughter of James, minor
23/04/1784 James Lugsden of LS stood surety for William Cumberland, farmer of Bolnhurst & Mary Goddard of Bolnhurst, age 21+
05/04/1794 Ann Lugsdin of Little Staughton to marry John Lugsdin farmer of LS.
Surety stood by Thomas Flanders, victually of LS
Married at LS on 08/04/1794 at LS
15/03/1796 Jemima Lugsdin of LD, 21+ to marry Benjamin Lee, son of Thomas, of Colmworth, minor. Surety by Thomas Lee, yeoman of Over, Cambs & William Lugsden, farmer of LS.
Married 21/03/1796 at LS
Note Jemima daughter of William & Mary Lugsden baptised at 1 month old at LS on 13/03/1774 along with siblings, Ann age 7, John age 4 & William age 2
cheers John
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Just reread the Will of James married to Margaret. In it it lists the beneficiaries as DB and DS with Robert T as a DB (descendent of a brother). So that removes James and Margaret from the equation.
So are you saying Graham that James and Margaret are a complete red herring and are nothing to do with the North Beds Lugsdens? They appear to have married in 1852 in Westminster.
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While we're discussing links to others - are the Lugsdens from North Beds linked to the lot from way down south at Eaton Bray ? A GrU contact's tree I've been looking at suggests there is.
John
It's been snowing here all afternoon - the traffic outside my window is building up...
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You must be psychic John. I was just putting a message together on Word.
Part of it (the rest will follow later) reads "Additional confusions are marriages in Eaton Socon and Eaton Bray, opposite ends of Beds. The Eaton Bray William Lugsden aged 62 in 1861 gives his birthplace as Comauth, Beds, which is probably Colmworth, which is where James Lugsden married Mary Dobey"
The only Lugsden entry in Colmworth is the 1760 marriage. Must check the Muster list*
This thread is too confusing. I can't what work out what is fact and what's been deleted
I've gone back to the drawing board
David
Staying in tonight. The others had a Chinese last night and three shops in Carcassonne haven't opened today! So no-one's going out to play tonight.
*Might be getting somewhere. Colmworth 1803 John Lugsden farmer, age 33, 4 children under 10 (one of whom I'm confident moved to Eaton Bray). John may have been the son of William and Mary (Sumpter) baptised in 1774 aged 4
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The 1861 census William Lugsden of Comauth; is verified later in 1871 as being born Colmworth 1798; although in 1851 it says he was born Eaton Bray 1797. Details of him wife Martha & children are found on 1841 at Eaton Bray.
Suspect he is the William Lugsden who married Martha Smith at Eaton Bray on 28/10/1823, I'd just like to check the marriage entry to see where he's from & the names of witnesses.
So is he the son of James Lugsden & Mary Dobey at Colmworth (whose brother William married Mary Sumpter) & if so where is his baptism?
Just to add to the confusion
John
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Morning John, insomnia?
No, I think he's the son of John Lugsden, baptised 1774 aged 4, son of William and Mary (Sumpter) Lugsden. This John age 33 was living in Colmworth in the 1803 Muster List with 4 children under 10, but none of them were baptised, at least not in the established church. I'm trying to piece them together at the moment.
There's also a George Lugsden 64 in Kimbolton in 1861 born in Henlow. Where he sprung from I've no idea! Not baptised, inevitably. Perhaps he's the George born 1797 at Pertenhall who you found in a non conformist register. Possibly his parents stayed on in Henlow for a few months after their marriage. Can't find him in 1841/51
I don't think I've seen a family where so few were baptised.
David
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Is this John Lugsden the one who married Ann Lugsden by licence on 8/4/1794 at Little Staugton. Surety by Thomas Flanders - who then married Mary Lugsden, daughter of James on 15/3/1784 at LS. So was the Ann another daughter James Lugsden & Mary Dobey. ?
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Yes, that's the marriage, and yes, I think your supposition about Ann is correct. I'm assuming that John and Ann were cousins, purely on the basis that there seems to have been only two Lugsden families in Lt Staughton at that time
With no baptisms it's a case of having to reconstruct the families on a "what's the most likely" scenario
David
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John, the NBI has very few Lugsden burials after 1800, yet there should be loads of them. The BLARS extracts that you found refer to Louisa's grandfather William as having been buried at the Dissenter burial ground in Lt Staughton.
Any chance that the next time you're in the Archives you could see if they have a register for these burials? Might shed some light on the Sabeys too. These burials appear to be on the NBI but only up to 1796, plus 1806.
David
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1851 has George Lugsden, unmarried aged 30 born Henlow; journeyman Baker living in Great Staughton with Alfred Powers a Baker from Blunham - mistranscribed as Leysden
HO107/1750 Folio 466, Page 23
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Good find!
It's a rotten figure, but I think it's 50 not 30 (I've just noticed that for once I agree with Ancestry!)
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John, was there any mention of Sabeys in the book?
I have this book - no mention of Sabeys in it.
Would be interested to know if any grave transcriptions were done before the LS Meeting House was demolished to make way for the airfield in June 1944 - the absence of burials in LS after those at All Saints LS cease in 1767, points to burials at the LS Meeting House given the establishment of the LS Meeting House in 1766.
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Per family letters, Robert Thorn(e) Lugsdin died in Little Staughton when his son William was a boy. William was taken from a solicitor's office and apprenticed to a tailor as a boy. Robert's wife was indeed Sarah Grey/Gray.
Graham; When did Robert Lugsdin & wife Sarah die. As I have them on 1861 census as farmer in Little Staughton, Robert 54 & Sarah 57. (OK I have now updated Ancestry with the correct name). Also I have death index for Robert Lugsdin in Sept 1861 & Sarah Lugsden in Dec 1866 age 62, both in St Neots RD. In 1861 son William age 14 was apprenticed as tailor in Eaton Socon.
Your story (well to me) suggested that William was apprenticed after father Robert had died & he was a young boy rather than a growing lad.
Cheers John
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A snippet:
in the parliamentary election for the two knights of the shire of the county of Bedford in 1784 it was a close run thing for the second knight. St Andrew St John had 974 votes and Lord Ongley 973. http://www.rabancourt.co.uk/abacus/p84head.jpg
Lord Ongley challenged the vote of William Lugsden of Lt Staughton as being intended for himself. All 2,998 votes were then scrutinised, and 297 were disqualified for various reasons - some shouldn't have been eligible to vote as they had freeholds with a value of less than 40s, or were copyholders or leaseholders, some were under 21, and some voted twice. St John still won. (History of Bedfordshire, Joyce Godber 1969)
I assume this must have been the William Lugsden who was married to Mary Sumpter
David
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John, was there any mention of Sabeys in the book?
I have this book - no mention of Sabeys in it.
Thanks for checking Graham. That's unfortunate. I was hoping that perhaps we might have been able to solve the Bolnhurst Sabey problem as they too attended Lt Staughton Baptist church
David
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David; I assume you've seen the Pollbook of Bedfordshire 1784 mentions William Lugsden of Little Staughton & James Lugsden of Wilden.
http://www.rabancourt.co.uk/abacus/p1784ind.html
I think that James of Wilden is son of a William Lugsden of LS (but not the one in the Pollbook) as they are mentioned in the BLARS ref BD1171/1-5 (extract of will of Wm Longsdin dated 3 May 1767).
As to polling, I will check out the 2 BHRS publications 'How Bedfordshire Voted' to see if they get a mention
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Hi John
A quick one before I go down to the market. Yes, I'd see the Pollbook (and posted the link to the front page which gave the result - see my post three lower down). I was wondering where Wilden came into the picture though.
I'm looking at a couple of Lugsdens in London - James son of James who married Margaret Nix in Westminster in 1852, who Graham says died in 1853 in Peckham - don't have his age though, and can't find a burial. There's a burial of Margaret Lugsdin in 1859 age 57, which is probably her, as I'm not aware of any other Margaret Lugsdens. Don't know which James he is.
There's also a Jabez Lugsdin married in London in 1832 who on 1851 (Lergsdier) age 42 was born in Beds, which must have been north Beds as the Eaton Bray lot hadn't started in 1809. Don't know where he fits in either, although as both he and James and Margaret were in Westminster they may be connected. Jabez died in 1859 so we don't get a second bite at the cherry for his birthplace
Have a good one
David
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Graham; When did Robert Lugsdin & wife Sarah die. As I have them on 1861 census as farmer in Little Staughton, Robert 54 & Sarah 57. (OK I have now updated Ancestry with the correct name). Also I have death index for Robert Lugsdin in Sept 1861 & Sarah Lugsden in Dec 1866 age 62, both in St Neots RD. In 1861 son William age 14 was apprenticed as tailor in Eaton Socon.
Your story (well to me) suggested that William was apprenticed after father Robert had died & he was a young boy rather than a growing lad.
Cheers John
Hi John, I do not have death dates for either Robert or Sarah.
Re William - the letter from his son in 1929 said " William was taken from a solicitor's office and apprenticed to a tailor as a boy", so presumably he didn't know his father's age at the time.
Cheers,
Graham
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There's also a George Lugsden 64 in Kimbolton in 1861 born in Henlow. Where he sprung from I've no idea! Not baptised, inevitably. Perhaps he's the George born 1797 at Pertenhall who you found in a non conformist register. Possibly his parents stayed on in Henlow for a few months after their marriage. Can't find him in 1841/51
I have a Will of a George Lugsdin of Buckingham Row, Westminster dated 5/7/1845, died 7 May 1846, leaving funds to father John (presumably married to Ann Lugsdin), brother William, brother Jabez, sister Mary Battams and sister Sophia Lugsdin. So maybe the George in 1861 is the George at Pertenhall, who also had a brother William and a sister Mary.
Why couldn't they have had names like Bruce, Kylie, or Barry???
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There's a Mary Lugsden that married John Battams on 25 July 1822 at Totternhoe; not so far from Eaton Bray.
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And in 1851 Sophia Lugsden sister in law was living with the Battams in Herts. Sophia gives her birthplace as Colmworth, the same as the originator of the Eaton Bray line
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Why couldn't they have had names like Bruce, Kylie, or Barry???
Because the family weren't Australian at that stage! I imagine that in 100 years time Australian researchers will be begging for the odd John or Sarah amongst the Bruces and Kylies.
Thanks for this information Graham. It all helps to fit the family together in the absence of baptisms
David
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Ann Lugsdin married Benjamin Excell on 29 May 1833 at St Nicholas Brighthelmstone, Sussex. They appeared in 1841 in Brighthelmstone, Ann 30 not born in Sussex. Benjamin died in 1842 and in 1851 she was a widow, Anne Exall 48 born Huntingdonshire. According to some online trees she died in Australia in 1888.
She may have been the daughter of John Lugsdin of Sawtry All Saints who married Lucy Allen at Kimbolton in 1800. I think it was this John who was buried on 22 Nov 1803 at Sawtry All Saints,(confirmation required from the parish register) as a Lucy Lugsden widow married James Knighton of Gt Gidding in Sawtry AS in 1804.
It appears as though Ann was living with her uncle, James Lugsdin, in Brighton, as there’s a marriage on 20 May 1828 at St Michael Bassishaw, City of London, between James Lugsdin widower of St Nicholas Brighthelmstone, Sussex, & Martha Lidgould spinster. Can’t trace his first marriage, yet.
1841 census
Hove Sussex
James Lugsden 70 Ind; Martha Lugsden 61. Neither b in Sussex
1851 census
Stoke Newington Middlesex
James Lugsden head widower 80 gentleman b Bedford
I think the 1852 marriage to Margaret Nix was this James, and the 1853 will that Graham has mentioned was him.
Graham has told me that the 1853 will mentioned no children, but that various nephews and nieces were named, including Ann Excell. I'm still working my way through these, but Mary Battams and Sophia are named
David
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A couple more references possibly relating to the James Lugsdin in the previous message-
- in 1835 a James Lugsdin of 29 Great James St, Bedford Row, was one of the signatories to a letter to Lord Melbourne, Home Secretary, appealing for clemency for a cripple convicted of selling unstamped newspapers. I can't find any reference to the type of business he was operating though. (Parliamentary papers, Volume 46 by Great Britain Parliament. House of Commons
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BVASAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP257&dq=lugsdin&lr=&as_brr=3&cd=11#v=onepage&q=lugsdin&f=false )
- there's a marriage on 10 Aug 1807 at St Andrew Holborn between James Lugsdin and Esther Bailey, who might be the missing first wife. Unless I find a burial for Esther pre 1828 I doubt that I'll ever be able to prove it though.*
David
* 10 March edit. Gaye has kindly given me the burial of Esther Lugsdin age 53 at Brighton on 7 April 17271827, which provides the link
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There's a Mary Lugsden that married John Battams on 25 July 1822 at Totternhoe; not so far from Eaton Bray.
The Totternhoe mariage confirms Mary Lugsden was of Eaton Bray, married by licence which offers no more info; & witnesses were James Battams & Ann Battams
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Suspect he is the William Lugsden who married Martha Smith at Eaton Bray on 28/10/1823, I'd just like to check the marriage entry to see where he's from & the names of witnesses.
The Eaton Bray marriage says William Lugsden was from Edlesborough, Bucks - witnesses were Richard Gadsden & Mary Smith.
Nice if it had said he was from Colmworth or Staughton
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William Lugsdin m Mary Sumpter
Son William m Mary Ell
Son James m Editha Howard
William Lugsdin (who m Mary Sumpter) had a brother James m Mary Dobey
Son William m1 Elizabeth Ell, m2 Sarah Thorns
So to recap William (m Mary Sumpter) baptised 25/7/1736 & James (m Mary Dobey) baptised 4/8/1734 were brothers & I assume are the sons of William Lugsden & Ann Peppercorn.
Is he the William, son of William Lugsdin baptised at Little Staughton 12/3/1697 ?
When William Lugsden married Ann Peppercorn at St Paul's Bedford on 10/04/1732 it confirms that he was from Little Staughton; and he was a widower.
So who was his first wife & when did she die ?
Little Staughton has a burial on 19/07/1724 of Dorothy, wife of Wm Logsden, after the marriage of William Logsden, labourer to Dorothy Fann on 30 Sept 1723. William, labourer & Dorothy also baptised a son named William (of course) on 19 July 1724 - what became of him.
Well we know that William who married Ann Peppercorn was a farmer, while William who married Dorothy was just a labourer; AND if William & Dorothy had son William - & assume he survived - then why would William & Ann have their child named William. So I suspect these are not the same Williams. What do you think ?
John
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And I've just found yet another Ell connection
In 1861 Clara Elizabeth Lugsdin, dau of William b 1805 at Pertenhall, son of Mary (Ell) was a visitor in Henlow with John Ell 64 unmarried farmer. Clara's father was in Clifton, whilst her mother was a visitor at one of Clara's brothers in Islington.
I can't work out John Ell's relationship to Mary Ell, but nephew seems to be the most likely. And I don't know why William should have been living alone in Clifton in 1851, as there's no obvious connection that I can see - he was born in Pertenhall and seems to have spent his adult life in Islington where he worked for the GPO.
Just when I think I've got them sorted I get thrown a curve ball.
I've not looked at the older Lugsdens but I'll have a look in the morning. Eyes have gone tonight, and brain is also in neutral.
David
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So to recap William (m Mary Sumpter) baptised 25/7/1736 & James (m Mary Dobey) baptised 4/8/1734 were brothers & I assume are the sons of William Lugsden & Ann Peppercorn.
Is he the William, son of William Lugsdin baptised at Little Staughton 12/3/1697 ?
John
I am of the belief that William and James are sons of William baptised 13 Mar 1697.
In the Will dated 12 Jan 1767 of William Lougsdin of the parish of Little Staughton, he bequeaths to his son James Lougsdin all his freehold estate at Wilden and to his son William two freehold estates in Little Staughton as well as to his daughters Mary, Ann and Elanor Wells £180, plus to his sister Elanor Peppercorn £10. Signed in the prescence of Dorothy Barnard, Jacob Patridge and Thomas Smith.
So who was his first wife & when did she die ?
Little Staughton has a burial on 19/07/1724 of Dorothy, wife of Wm Logsden, after the marriage of William Logsden, labourer to Dorothy Fann on 30 Sept 1723. William, labourer & Dorothy also baptised a son named William (of course) on 19 July 1724 - what became of him.
Well we know that William who married Ann Peppercorn was a farmer, while William who married Dorothy was just a labourer; AND if William & Dorothy had son William - & assume he survived - then why would William & Ann have their child named William. So I suspect these are not the same Williams. What do you think ?
John
Interesting in the last para of John's post that the burial of Dorothy and the baptism of William occurred on the same day, she presumably dying in labour.
Graham
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1851 has George Lugsden, unmarried aged 30 born Henlow; journeyman Baker living in Great Staughton with Alfred Powers a Baker from Blunham - mistranscribed as Leysden
HO107/1750 Folio 466, Page 23
Good find!
It's a rotten figure, but I think it's 50 not 30 (I've just noticed that for once I agree with Ancestry!)
There's also a George Lugsden 64 in Kimbolton in 1861 born in Henlow. Where he sprung from I've no idea! Not baptised, inevitably. Perhaps he's the George born 1797 at Pertenhall who you found in a non conformist register. Possibly his parents stayed on in Henlow for a few months after their marriage. Can't find him in 1841/51
I am concluding that this George is the George, son of William Lugsdin and Mary (Ell). The George, son of John Lugsdin and Ann (Lugsdin) having died in 1846, thus accounting for him.
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It appears as though Ann was living with her uncle, James Lugsdin, in Brighton, as there’s a marriage on 20 May 1828 at St Michael Bassishaw, City of London, between James Lugsdin widower of St Nicholas Brighthelmstone, Sussex, & Martha Lidgould spinster. Can’t trace his first marriage, yet.
1841 census
Hove Sussex
James Lugsden 70 Ind; Martha Lugsden 61. Neither b in Sussex
1851 census
Stoke Newington Middlesex
James Lugsden head widower 80 gentleman b Bedford
I think the 1852 marriage to Margaret Nix was this James, and the 1853 will that Graham has mentioned was him.
Graham has told me that the 1853 will mentioned no children, but that various nephews and nieces were named, including Ann Excell. I'm still working my way through these, but Mary Battams and Sophia are named
David
David are you thinking James was married three times? -
m1 - unknown, possibly Esther Bailey 1807
m2 - Martha Lidgould 1828
m3 - Margaret Nix 1852
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I can't work out John Ell's relationship to Mary Ell, .................
David, hope you're refreshed this morning .
John Ell aged 64 in 1861; could he be the John Ell baptised 22 Sep 1796 at Henlow, son of Charles Ell & Mary Stevens who married 28 Jul 1789 ay Henlow. They also baptised a James Sumpter Ell on 16 July 1799.
Is this Charles Ell baptised Gravely 23 Aug 1761, son of John Ell & Elizabeth ne Sumpter, who later moved to Henlow & baptised daughters Mary & Elizabeth who married the William Lugdsens.
* on the 1861 census, John Ell has widowed sister Elizabeth Hare b 1803. Elizabeth Ell married John Hare at Henlow 24 Nov 1831; & she was baptised 6 Aug 1802 daughter of Charles & Mary Ell
cheers John
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In the Will dated 12 Jan 1767 of William Lougsdin..... bequeaths to his daughters Mary, Ann and Elanor Wells £180, plus to his sister Elanor Peppercorn £10.
So are these Mary Lugsden who married John Cope on 23 May 1774; Ann Lugsden who married Thomas Brawne on 14 Sept 1772 & Eleanor Lugsden who married Thomas Wells at LS on 23 Apr 1764. I cannot find baptisms for these daughters.
Also as to his sister, is this any data of Eleanor Lugsden marrying a Peppercorn
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I can't work out John Ell's relationship to Mary Ell, .................
Is this Charles Ell baptised Gravely 23 Aug 1761, son of John Ell & Elizabeth ne Sumpter, who later moved to Henlow & baptised daughters Mary & Elizabeth who married the William Lugdsens.
I'm sure you're right John, which confirms my gut feeling last night that John Ell was nephew to the Ells who married Lugsdins.
Wish I could say I was refreshed and rarin' to go, but perhaps the strong black coffee which is half consumed might help!
David
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David are you thinking James was married three times? -
m1 - unknown, possibly Esther Bailey 1807
m2 - Martha Lidgould 1828
m3 - Margaret Nix 1852
Yes
The James who married Martha was a widower, and we know his age from the 1841 census when he was living with Martha. What is missing is confirmation that he was the James who married Margaret Nix. I'm not sure the marriage cert would give his age - it may just say "of full age", which at 81 he certainly was! and "widower" - but the clincher would be his age at death, so his death certificate is needed. Unfortunately I can't find his burial, although I have Margaret's, who was a widow when she died in 1859. And as I can't find any other James Lugsdin deaths on FreeBMD between 1852 and 1859 I assume the 1853 death was the husband of Margaret.
In 1851 James 80 was living in Stoke Newington, part of Hackney registration district. In the June quarter 1851 in Hackney there's a death registered of Martha Lugsden, which is a slight anomaly as James was a widower on 30 March! Possibly she died at the end of March and her death wasn't registered until the very beginning of April.
It all points to it being James widower of Martha who married Margaret Nix.
David
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At the archives yesterday I looked at documents BD1171/1-5
The "marriage certificate" is a piece of paper that says William Lugsden of Little Staughton, widower to Sarah Thoms, spinster of this parish, on 13 Aug 1802 married by licence, in presence of Francis Hobson & Ann Thorns. Signed by rector of Eaton Socon on 21 Sept 1832.
This ties up with the marriage licence data, where surety was given by Francis Hobson, miller of Eaton Socon.
I noticed another marriage at Eaton Socon on 7 Oct 1802 of John Barker of London to Ann Thornes of E.S., also by licence & also surety given by the same Francis Hobson, yeoman.
I am assuming Sarah & Ann are sisters, daughters of William & Mary Thorns of Eaton Socon, Sarah baptised 30 Aug 1767 & Ann baptised 29 Jul 1764.
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William and Mary (Ell) had three known children, all born at Pertenhall, as John pointed out in reply #16
George b 1797 didn't marry, and in all censuses gave his birthplace as Henlow. Died in 1875 age 77
Mary b 1799 Married William Watts at Leighton Bromswold Hunts 22 Feb 1819. Buried Leighton Bromswold 21 Jun 1860 age 60. Appears on 1851 census at Little Catworth Hunts Farmer 100 acres b Pertenhall.
William b 1805 Married Clara Hawkins 16 Oct 1831 St Paul Canonbury, Middlesex. Children all b Islington: Henry 1832, William 1834, James 1840, Charles 1844, Benjamin 1845, Clara Elizabeth b 1847. Died in 1870 in Islington age 65.
David
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Ladds Lugsden, born Riseley 1808, son of James and Charlotte (Ladds) was a bit of a Ladd.
He's named in bastardy proceedings in 1831 with Lucy Tebbitt, who baptised a daughter Eliza on 10 July 1831, four days after Ladds married Priscilla Worth Swannell at Lt Staughton.
So the numerous Canadian descendants of Ladds have some half cousins in England
David
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Priscilla Worth Swannell is daughter of Joseph Swannell of Felmersham & Priscilla Worth of Harrold, who married at Harrold on 11 July 1810. I don't know when Joseph died but Priscilla Swannell, widow of St John's Bedford married James Knight, widower of Little Staughton on 15. May 1824 at Bedford St John's.
It states Priscilla Kight mother as giving surety on the marriage licence dated 2/7/1831 of Ladds Lugsden of Riseley to Priscilla Worth Swannell of LS.
Baptism of Priscilla Worth Swannell at the Harpur St Weslyan on 12 Nov 1812, born 9 April 1811
On 1851 census Priscilla Knight is a visitor age 62 born Harrold
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I noticed this morning that a James Lugsdin Bailey emigrated to New Zealand in 1850 (see http://www.angelfire.com/az/nzgenweb/diaryjlb.html ) and thought there must be a connection.
He was born at Datchet, Berks, on 22 July 1827, son of Ann and William Bailey. In the link above he mentions his Uncle Lugsdin
Marriage 10 Aug 1807 at Holborn: James Lugsdin bach of St Giles Cripplegate & Esther Bailey spinster of St Andrew Holborn. Witnesses: Joseph Harrip & E Jacques
Marriage 20 May 1828 in the City of London: James Lugsdin widower of St Nicholas Brighthelmstone Sussex & Martha Lidgould spinster. Witnesses: Ann Newbery; William Bailey (was this his first wife's brother? Probably, as in 1827 William Bailey named his son for James, and it seems as though they were still close in 1839 when James was involved in arranging the schooling of William's son James Lugsdin Bailey at the City of London school)
In 1841 William Bailey was a baptist minister in Datchet
I think this helps establish the link between the first two marriages. I think William and Esther were siblings
David
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More info gleaned on Wednesday..........
From 'How Bedfordshire Voted 1716 - 1735' BHRS vol 87
1 Sept 1727 William Lugsden/Lugsden of Stoughton Parva with freehold in Wilden
County election of 1734 William Logsdale ? of Great Staughton with freehold in Widen
Also listed is.... but with no hint of residence
21 Mar 1721 Thomas Lodgsden
15 Aug 1727 Thomas Lodgsdon
27 Jan 1731 Thomas Logsden
He is previously in vol 85 1685 - 1715
General Election 1705 Borough of Bedford
Thomas Lodgson
This Thomas could be the Thomas Lodgsden who married Eliz Child on 25 May 1676 at St Paul's Bedford
John
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In the Will dated 12 Jan 1767 of William Lougsdin..... bequeaths to his daughters Mary, Ann and Elanor Wells £180, plus to his sister Elanor Peppercorn £10.
So are these Mary Lugsden who married John Cope on 23 May 1774; Ann Lugsden who married Thomas Brawne on 14 Sept 1772 & Eleanor Lugsden who married Thomas Wells at LS on 23 Apr 1764. I cannot find baptisms for these daughters.
I am assuming so.
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See topic ... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,432244.0.html
There's a suggestion that the horse thief James Wiles was son of William Wiles & Ann Lugsden
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Possibly unconnected perhaps, but interesting I thought......
From Roxton parish records
11 Nov 1663 John Logsden married Elizabeth Day
26 Aug 1664 baptism of John son of John Logsden
21 Sept 1665, baptisms of Faith, Hope, Charity & Mercy, four daughters of John Lugsden
25 Oct 1664 burial of John, son of John Logsden
24 Sept 1665 burials of Faith, Hope, Charity & Mercy, daughters of John Logsden
5 Oct 1665 burial of Elizabeth, wife of John Logsden
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Ann Lugsdin married Benjamin Excell on 29 May 1833 at St Nicholas Brighthelmstone, Sussex. They appeared in 1841 in Brighthelmstone, Ann 30 not born in Sussex. Benjamin died in 1842 and in 1851 she was a widow, Anne Exall 48 born Huntingdonshire. According to some online trees she died in Australia in 1888.
She may have been the daughter of John Lugsdin of Sawtry All Saints who married Lucy Allen at Kimbolton in 1800. I think it was this John who was buried on 22 Nov 1803 at Sawtry All Saints,(confirmation required from the parish register) as a Lucy Lugsden widow married James Knighton of Gt Gidding in Sawtry AS in 1804.
It appears as though Ann was living with her uncle, James Lugsdin, in Brighton, as there’s a marriage on 20 May 1828 at St Michael Bassishaw, City of London, between James Lugsdin widower of St Nicholas Brighthelmstone, Sussex, & Martha Lidgould spinster. Can’t trace his first marriage, yet.
1841 census
Hove Sussex
James Lugsden 70 Ind; Martha Lugsden 61. Neither b in Sussex
1851 census
Stoke Newington Middlesex
James Lugsden head widower 80 gentleman b Bedford
I think the 1852 marriage to Margaret Nix was this James, and the 1853 will that Graham has mentioned was him.
Graham has told me that the 1853 will mentioned no children, but that various nephews and nieces were named, including Ann Excell. I'm still working my way through these, but Mary Battams and Sophia are named
David
David -
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Trying to contact David [Bedfordshire Boy] and others researching this LUGSDIN line which mentions Ann EXCELL [nee LUGSDIN]. This Ann LUGSDIN who married Benjamin EXCELL is my great great grandmother and for many years I have been trying to find out her parents. Benjamin EXCELL died aged 30 on 17 March 1842 in Brighton and in 1857 Ann EXCELL nee LuGSDIN emigrated to Castlemaine in Victoria, Australia with her son, Harry EXCELL, [my great grandfather]. As you have discovered Ann died in Castlemaine in 1888. Harry and his family emigrated to New Zealand in 1879, as did a daughter of Ann's Elizabeth [Bessie] PRESCOTT nee EXCELL with her husband and family. The other son of Benjamin and Ann had earlier emigrated to South Australia. His name was John Wickens EXCELL and he came out to his Uncle, also John Wickens EXCELL. Any more assistance anyone can give me on Ann EXCELL [nee LUGSDIN] would be much appreciated.
Gaye
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Ann was, I believe, the daughter of John Lugsdin c1766-1803 who married Lucy Allen at Kimbolton Hunts and who was buried at Sawtry Hunts on 22 Nov 1803. In the 1851 census Ann gives her birthplace as Huntingdonshire. Without a baptism I can't state categorically that she was his daughter, but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. The family was seriously baptist, who didn't do infant baptisms, so it's not been straightforward piecing them together. Graham on this thread has wills of some of the Lugsdins which have helped in putting them together.
I put a tree on Ancestry a few days ago but it doesn't yet show in the search. If you send me a personal message with your email address I'll send you an invitation to the tree. I haven't added Ann's children to it yet, but as it's snowing here I'm not going outside, so that's my job for the day!
David
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Priscilla Worth Swannell is daughter of Joseph Swannell of Felmersham & Priscilla Worth of Harrold, who married at Harrold on 11 July 1810. I don't know when Joseph died ...... . . . .... on the marriage licence dated 2/7/1831 of Ladds Lugsden of Riseley to Priscilla Worth Swannell of LS.
Joseph Swanell died 2 Nov 1817 & is buried in Radwell Chapell. He is son of William Swannell & Martha Wright. His sister Martha baptised 1762 Pavenham married my gt-gt-gt grandfather Thomas Partridge at Felmersham in 1780.
cheers John
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Downloaded the will of James Lugsdin dated 20 Jan 1853 from TNA yesterday. Loads of legalese and instructions about trustees, but the guts of it reads"
"This is the last Will and Testament of me James Lugsdin of York Terrace, Queens Rd, Peckham in the County of Surrey, Gentleman.
First I direct that all my just debts, funeral and testamentary expenses be fully paid and satisfied. I nominate and appoint my dear wife Margaret Lugsdin, Mr Charles Teede (he was the husband of James’ niece by marriage, Ann Bailey, sister of James Lugsdin Bailey) of Mincing Lane, City of London, Grocer, and Mr Amos Goodliffe of Worthing in the county of Sussex, schoolmaster, Executrix and Executors of this my will ...
I give devise and bequeath all that my freehold messuage cottage hereditaments and the outbuildings thereto belonging with the piece of land appurtenant or near thereto containing one acre or thereabouts with the rights members and appurtenances situate and being on the Green at Little Staughton in the county of Bedford now in the occupation of Mrs Minney unto and to the use of my nephew Robert Thorn Lugsdin of Little Staughton aforesaid his heirs and assigns absolutely and for ever.
.....paying such equal part or share unto each of my nephews and nieces following namely: William Lugsdin and Jabez Lugsdin the sons of my sister Ann Lugsdin deceased, William Lugsdin the son of my younger brother John Lugsdin deceased, the said Robert Thorn Lugsdin, Mary Battams, Sophia Lugsdin, Ann Excell and Deborah Goodliffe share and share alike....."
Pity he doesn't name the parents of his nieces, but it's pretty clear who they must be.
David
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I keep coming back to the Lugsdens when I'm running short of other names to research!
I'm still not convinced about Robert Thorns Lugsden. I've no doubt that he was Robert Thorns Lugsden son of William and Sarah (Thorns) Lugsden. There are too many references to him in wills and other documents for there to be any possibility that they're all errors of Thorns for Thomas.
What is nagging at me is the birth record in Lt Staughton Baptist Church of Robert Lugsden on 18 Sept 1806 son of William and MARY, after William and Mary had recorded the births of three other children. They married in Henlow and their eldest son George always put Henlow as his place of birth, the second child Mary gave Pertenhall as her place of birth in 1851, and the third, William, born 1805 also gave Pertenhall. In 1803 the family appeared in the Muster list in Pertenhall. Robert Thorns always gave Lt Staughton as his place of birth, thus differentiating him from William and Mary.
What has been assumed is that the Baptist Church book is in error and the parents should be William and Sarah, who also appear to be dissenters. But equally the register could be correct and this Richard was among the numerous Lugsdens in Lt Staughton/Pertenhall for whom no burials can be traced.
Which would leave Robert Thorns Lugsden with no birth/baptism record
Not a question, but sometimes it helps to write it down to help clear my head!
David
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Hi David,
Some information for your Lugsden/Lugsdin tree:
#007530-00 (Hastings Co): Walter Edwin LUGSDIN, 32, accountant, Toronto, same, s/o William L. LUGSDIN & Elizabeth EMERY, married Flora Fanny GREEN, 24, England, Belleville, d/o John GREEN & Susan KENT, witn: G. Arthur ROBERTS & Clara P. LUGSDIN, both of Toronto, 19 June 1900 at Belleville
From here: http://homepages.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maryc/hast00.htm
I was looking for information on Clara and a google search turned this up. I saw on your tree you didn't have a surname for Flora or definite marriage date, so thought this might be handy.
Crista
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I keep coming back to the Lugsdens when I'm running short of other names to research!
I'm still not convinced about Robert Thorns Lugsden. I've no doubt that he was Robert Thorns Lugsden son of William and Sarah (Thorns) Lugsden. There are too many references to him in wills and other documents for there to be any possibility that they're all errors of Thorns for Thomas.
What is nagging at me is the birth record in Lt Staughton Baptist Church of Robert Lugsden on 18 Sept 1806 son of William and MARY, after William and Mary had recorded the births of three other children. They married in Henlow and their eldest son George always put Henlow as his place of birth, the second child Mary gave Pertenhall as her place of birth in 1851, and the third, William, born 1805 also gave Pertenhall. In 1803 the family appeared in the Muster list in Pertenhall. Robert Thorns always gave Lt Staughton as his place of birth, thus differentiating him from William and Mary.
What has been assumed is that the Baptist Church book is in error and the parents should be William and Sarah, who also appear to be dissenters. But equally the register could be correct and this Richard was among the numerous Lugsdens in Lt Staughton/Pertenhall for whom no burials can be traced.
Which would leave Robert Thorns Lugsden with no birth/baptism record
Not a question, but sometimes it helps to write it down to help clear my head!
David
So is it the same William that married both Mary and Sarah? Did Robert Thomas die? It just seems odd that if the same William is father to both Robert Thomas and Robert Thorns, he would have 2 sons with the same first name.
Also, I saw today on IGI Sarah's name written as Sarah Thomas in a marriage record. Below it was another one for Sarah Thorns. The marriage dates were a day apart, but obviously to the same spouse. The Lugsdin branch of my tree confuses me, I wish I'd just stopped with my Ell ancestors...