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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: History seeker on Tuesday 16 February 10 06:05 GMT (UK)
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Hello Everyone,
Can anyone tell me what happened to orphans in about 1860 in Bathurst Nsw?
I have both parents death certificates and there were six children ages range from 18 to 4 years.
I have traced the 4 girls but the boys who were 9 and 4 years I have not been able to find and as far as I know they did not have any family in Australia.
Family is as follows
Father Michael Scullion 1816-1860 married Derry Ireland Mother Martha Mullins 1816-1857 they arrived on board the James Mathieson in 1841.
All children born Bathurst
Sarah 1842-1864
Martha 1844-1925
Rosetta 1847-1925
Mary 1850-1942
James 1851-unknown
William 1856-unknown
I have not been able to find deaths for these boys so I was wondering if many legal adoptions happened back in the 1860's or were they sent to orphan schools?
Does anyone have any suggestions.
HS
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Hi there,
There's probably a probate packet for a James Scullion - Date of Death 16/07/1930, probate Granted On 07/11/1930 at the NSW State Records office
Archives Investigator, http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Search.aspx
I think you would need to check that before confirming if it refers to your orphan lad. Sorry, but I'm not sure which organisation would have cared for the 2 boys, in that era, but I will look through some of my family history for those times and that district. The Benevolent Society of NSW was active from as early as 1800's ... and still exists today. If I find anything in my own notes, I will let you know ....
On the NSW resources board here at Rchat, there's a link to that Society and to many other online sites. Here's the NSW Resources link... http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,369703.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Unfortunately they could have been taken in by a local family and their surname changed.
The 1830 death for James Scullion has his parents as James and Martha. He died in Orange. The informant may have not known correct parents names though.
Just searching, death James (first name only) 1845-1979 with parents Michael/Martha throws up 12 of possibles, some of which can be discounted. I did the same with William. Similar results.
Trish :)
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Hi there,
On the NSW State Records Office website, there's information about Orphan schools, 1817-86
A number of series of records relating to the Orphan Schools which were run by the colonial government of NSW.
And there's a search option within that specific topic, that includes a surname, first name etc. I don't know if all the Orphan Schools have been indexed, but I hope its a starting point for you .
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online#education-and-child-welfare
Cheers, JM
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Hello,
I have a connection to Rosetta Scullion. Hoping that you can help me in my search.
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What happened to Sarah SCULLION? You have her death down as 1864 but I can't see it on NSW BDM?
My reasoning is she and Martha were old enough to look after the littlies, were they able.
Neil
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Hi Red Poppy and welcome to Rootschat ;D
History Seeker hasn't been online for around 18months lets hope she/he picks up if still has same email address as a notification will be sent to them.
If anyone here can help we will until History seeker comes back online.
Neil
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Hello Red Poppy,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I am awfully sorry but it looks like History Seeker's emails are not working as your reply has bounced back this morning from their address.
I have done a bit of a search with her details and I have not been able to find a new address for them :'(
Regards
Sarah
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Hello,
I have a connection to Rosetta Scullion. Hoping that you can help me in my search.
Hi Red Poppy,
Welcome to RChat from me too.
We are a friendly group here, and we try to help. I have quite a few offline resources, especially for NSW. I am happy try to help with your search for Rosetta Scullion, her likely siblings and her ancestors....
You will need to make two more posts to have all the benefits of RChat available to you, so the easiest way to do that is simply to reply twice more on this thread.
Just say HI or something along those lines.
Many Cheers, JM (NSW Centric)
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What happened to Sarah SCULLION? You have her death down as 1864 but I can't see it on NSW BDM?
My reasoning is she and Martha were old enough to look after the littlies, were they able.
Neil
A possibility Neil
NSW marriage
3115/1864 WILLIAMS THOR R SKILLION SARAH SOFALA
3115/1864 WILLIAMS THOMAS R SKILTION SARAH SOFALA
NSW death
5889/1864 WILLIAMS SARAH A MICHAEL MARTHA SOFALA
5891/1864 WILLIAMS MALE INFANT THOMAS SARAH A SOFALA
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:) Good find Giblet,
It is likely there will be some information missing from that 1864 marriage. There was a long running disagreement between the clergy and the civil BDM that went on and on and on. The clergy recorded the names of the parents of the bride and the groom, the occupations, the ages, and the other vital family history info, on their LOCAL parish registers, but the NSW BDM only received summary information. Of course, in most instances the local parish registers are still around, usually in the respective denominations' archives.
I did up a thread about how to overcome those hurdles, I hope it will help Red Poppy
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
I wonder if Rosetta was one of the official witnesses for Sarah's marriage. If so, that would place Rosetta at Sofala in 1864.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, That looks a definate possibilty Giblet, allowing of course for the name variation. It would be doubtful if Thomas WILLIAMS took on two young boys. That leaves the family of Martha 1844, I wonder if/when she married did she look after the boys?
Neil
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And it appears that Mary never married.
NSW death
23395/1942 SCULLION MARY MICHAEL MARTHA WELLINGTON
No one else seems to be buried with her neither
Inscription for Mary Scullion
http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=8694166
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Looks like Martha married Christopher Cookson in Dubbo and had two children but I cannot see the two boys under that surname ???
Neil
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NSW ER 1930, 36, 37 MUDGEE, polling at Stuart Town
SCULLION, Mary, Burrandong, domestic Duties
Cheers, JM
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WOW Stuart Town :o The only town in Australia that ran Mr ODD out of it. ;D
Neil
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There’s a submitted tree at MUNDIA with some NSW BDM certificates uploaded ;D
Marriage Cert NSW BDM 1862 #001859 COOKSON=SCULLION
(no indication that this certificate has been reconciled by NSW BDM to the Church Registers)
11 October 1862, Cannonbar.
Christopher COOKSON, Bachelor (birthplace blank) and Martha SCULLION, Spinster (birthplace blank)
Married at Cannonbar
According to the Rites of the Church of Scotland
Christopher (age blank) a Mailman, usually residing at Cannonbar (father’s name, mother’s name and maiden surname, father’s occupation all blank)
Martha (age blank) a Servant, usually residing at Cannonbar (parents details all blank)
Christopher signed, Martha made her mark.
Witnesses were John BROWN and John BROWN Junr
The officiating minister was Colin STEWART, of the Hermitage, Bowenfels, and the Itinerating minister of the Synod of Eastern Australia
Marriage Cert NSW BDM 1894. #007289 SMITH=COOKSON
(no indication that this certificate has been reconciled by NSW BDM to the Church Registers)
3 March 1894, St John the Baptist Church, Wellington
James SMITH, Bachelor (blank for Birthplace) and Martha COOKSON, Widow (blank for birthplace_
Married in the St John the Baptist Church Wellington
According to the rites of the Church of England
James was a Boundary Rider, (blank for his age) usually residing at Burrendong (blank for his Father’s name, mother’s name and maiden surname and his Father’s occupation.
Martha was Domestic Duties, (blank for her age) usually residing at Burrendong. Her father’s name recorded as Michael Scullion. (blanks for the rest of the info about her parents)
James Signed, Martha made her mark and this was initialled by the clergyman.
The witnesses were M E BAYLY and L BAYLY.
The clergyman was R BARRY BROWN.
Death Cert NSW BDM 1925 #020017 Martha SMITH
7 December 1925 at Burrendong, Macquarie Shire.
Martha SMITH, female aged 81 years …. Senility, Fatty degeneration of the heart, some years, HJ McGRIGOR, a Registered practioner, last saw her 5 Dec 1925.
Her father was Michael SCHLLION, a FARMER, and her mother a Marther MULLION The Informant was H F McGRATH, son in law of Merrendee and the Witness to his signature was James Fisher.
Her death was registere 9th December 1925 at Wellington. She was buried 8th December 1925 in the Church of England Cemetery at Stuart Town, and the undertaker was C J Shakespeare. The minister was T W BARRY, Anglican, and the witnesses were Arthur SMITH and J M SHARLTON.
Martha was born at Bathurst N S Wales and married at Dubbo NS Wales when 18 years of age to James SMITH.
The children of the marriages are (they are no separated into each marriage)
William 62, Martha 60, Elizabeth 58, James 56, Henry 54, Emily 52, Arthur 48, Mabel 46, Florence 44, Adelaide 40
Two males and Two females deceased.
The submitted tree has offered the following story under the heading McGrath Smith family. IT HAS NOT BEEN VALIDATED. The story is quite sad. :(
“Mary Elizabeth Smith married William Blunden in Orange in 1887 and gave birth to a son soon after she committed suicide by poisoning herself she was found near Burrandong on the Mudgee river. Catherine McGrath nee Hogan raised their son. Catherine's daughter Elizabeth McGrath married William Blunden in Mudgee in 1891 they had two children and Elizabeth died in 1899 and her children were raised by Martha Smith nee Scullion the mother of William's first wife. William Blunden then married another McGrath sister Una Madeline McGrath in Orange in 1900. William Blunden died in 1907. Another of the McGrath children Herbert married Florence Sophia Smith the second youngest child of Martha Scullion and James Smith in 1903 at Wellington. "
Cheers, JM
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Methinks the two boys must have been informally adopted out as there seems little else for them.
By the way great work JM ;D certainly gives a great synopsis of Martha's life.
Neil
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Here is a report of the suicide and of Mary begging the Blunden's to look after son Tommy. It is so sad.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18958553
regards,
Ros
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I think this is the last of the certificates, any typos are mine !
Some of these names are familiar to me .... Dr Machattie, in particular. :)
NSW BDM Death Cert 1860 #003062 Michael SCULLION
Second November 1860 at Winburndale, Roxburgh
Michael SCULLION, Farmer, male aged 44 years
Of Disease of heart, 12 months duration, last attended Richard MACHATTIE, Surgeon, 12 October 1860 …
Informant was Sarah SCULLION, Daughter, Spinster, of Winburndale, Roxburgh His parents names were not known to Sarah.
His death was registered third November 1860 at Bathurst and he was buried fourth November 1860 at Bathurst, by Sebastian HODGE, undertaker of Bathurst. The minister was James McGIRR, of the Roman Catholic religion, and the witnesses were Thomas LAWSON and Denis O’BRIEN.
He was born in County Derry Ireland, and had been about 20 years in New South Wales.
He had married at Co Derry, Ireland at 21 years of age to Martha MULLENS.
Their children were
Sarah Ann, 16, Martha 14, Rosa, 12, Mary 10, James 8 and William 4.
There were 1 boy and 1 girl dead.
NSW BDM Death Cert 1857 #002181 Martha SCULLION
Twentieth August 1857, at William Street, Bathurst.
Martha SCULLION, wife of Labourer, a female about 46 years
Of Pneumonia of twenty days duration, last seen by Jas J Connell, Surgeon on 31st July 1857.
Her parents were George MULLEN, Carpenter and Sarah formerly DAY. The informant was Dennis GAY, a Tenant, of William St, (a Publican) Bathurst.
Her death was registered Twenty fourth of August 1857 at Bathurst. She was buried twenty first of August 1857 at Bathurst by James SMITH, and the Minister was J PHELAN, Roman Catholic with John BRYNE and John JONES as Witnesses.
Martha was born at Worth (or North) of Ireland and had been Fifteen years in New South Wales. She was married in Ireland, when aged about twenty years to Michael Scullion.
The children of the marriage were
Sally 15, Martha 11, Rosa 8, Mary 5, James 3, William months,
2 boys dead.
BAPTISM 1847, Vol 162b, line 3018 Rosa SCHOLLEN
Rosa was born 28 February 1847 and Baptised 6 Oct 1847 in the Parish of Bathurst, County of Bathurst.
Her parents were Michael SCHOLLEN and Martha MOLLEN, living in Bathurst.
V BOURGEOIS, performed the Roman Catholic Ceremony.
BIRTH NSW 1856 #003204 William SCULIL
First October 1856, at Winburndale Creek,
A male chiild, unnamed, and not present
Father: Michael SCULIL, Farmer, aged about 40 born Ballaskillion, co Derry Ireland.
Married about 1835 at Ballaskillion.
Children : Sarah Ann 12, Martha 10, Rosa 8, Mary 6, James 4 and 1 boy 1 girl dead.
Mother Martha formerly MULLENS abt 40, born Ballaskillion
Michael SCULIL was the informant, he was the baby’s father, and he lived at Winburndale Creek. He made his mark (JM notes that explains the mistake in his surname)
He registed the baby on Twenty nine October 1856 at Bathurst.
JM NOTES in the final column there is an entry
“Name if added after Registration of birth”
“Baptized by the name of William by Rev J GRANT D.D. at Bathurst November 16, 1856.
It has been a while since I last transcribed. Fingers crossed there's enough to help Red Poppy.
I can confirm that Sally is definitely a pet name for Sarah, particularly in the 19th Century.
Cheers, JM
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On NSW BDM there are deaths recorded for the sons of both William Scullion with wife Clare no marriage NSW. Son was Richard Charles SCULLION and he died 1982. Also son of James and Martha SCULLION no marriage recorded. Son james died Orange 1930.
They possibly married interstate or did not marry. There are no deaths recorded for either of these two families in NSW, IE : William & Clare or James & Martha. :P Now which State did they die ???
Neil
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Methinks the two boys must have been informally adopted out as there seems little else for them.
That's a possibility,or they may have been placed in a Roman Catholic Orphanage in NSW or perhaps in Victoria? Here's some links for NSW
The Roman Catholic Diocese of Bathurst commenced 1865. Before then it was a series of Missions, part of the Sydney Diocese. Bathurst Diocese http://www.bathurst.catholic.org.au/?i=74&diocesan-archives
http://www.findandconnect.gov.au/nsw/biogs/NE00489b.htm
Roman Catholic Orphan School (1844-1886) From 1859 it was managed by the Sisters of the Good Shepherd.
http://www.findandconnect.gov.au/nsw/biogs/NE00817b.htm Some records of the Roman Catholic Orphan School are held at Mater Dei School, Camden
St Josephs Orphanage, Bathurst 1867-1975 Sisters of Mercy http://www.clan.org.au/homes_details.php?homesID=186
James SCULLION, baptised 1851, son of Michael and Martha (Vol 68, line 1780)
William SCULIL, civil registration 1856 at Bathurst, son of Michael and Martha (see earlier post)
Two interesting baptisms
1854, William SKULLION, son of Michael and Martha, vol 162B line 2453
1856, William SKULLION, son of Michael and Martha, vol 162B line 3453
Cheers, JM
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“Mary Elizabeth Smith married William Blunden in Orange in 1887 and gave birth to a son soon after she committed suicide by poisoning herself she was found near Burrandong on the Mudgee river. Catherine McGrath nee Hogan raised their son. Catherine's daughter Elizabeth McGrath married William Blunden in Mudgee in 1891 they had two children and Elizabeth died in 1899 and her children were raised by Martha Smith nee Scullion the mother of William's first wife. William Blunden then married another McGrath sister Una Madeline McGrath in Orange in 1900. William Blunden died in 1907. Another of the McGrath children Herbert married Florence Sophia Smith the second youngest child of Martha Scullion and James Smith in 1903 at Wellington. "
I have tried separating each likely fact and then adding the likely NSW BDM reference that would support that fact. I have NOT sought to find other NSW BDM reference that may contradict the likely fact.
Mary Elizabeth Smith married William Blunden in Orange in 1887
1887 NSW BDM #6859, Mary E SMITH
and gave birth to a son
1887 NSW BDM #35750, Thomas BLUNDEN,
soon after she committed suicide by poisoning herself
1888 NSW BDM #13565, Mary E BLUNDEN,
she was found near Burrandong on the Mudgee river.
INQUEST held 22 June 1888 (Coroner's Inquest Index, not a NSW BDM reference, but the inquest OUGHT to be noted on the NSW BDM dc)
Catherine McGrath nee Hogan raised their son.
Catherine's daughter Elizabeth McGrath married William Blunden in Mudgee in 1891
1891 NSW BDM #5457, Elizabeth MACGRATH/MCGRATH
they had two children
JM suggests they Possibly had THREE children :
1894 John H BLUNDEN, #36861 registered Wellington BDM district:
1896 Ernest S BLUNDEN #32577 registered Mudgee BDM district:
1899 Harold W BLUNDEN, #5080 registered Mudgee BDM district. I think he may have have been an infant who did not survive, 1899 NSW BDM #3804 Harold W BLUNDEN, registered Wellington BDM district.
and Elizabeth died in 1899
1899 NSW BDM #6414, Elizabeth BLUNDEN,
and her children were raised by Martha Smith nee Scullion the mother of William's first wife.
William Blunden then married another McGrath sister Una Madeline McGrath in Orange in 1900.
1900 NSW BDM #9383, Madeline U MACGRATH/MCGRATH
William Blunden died in 1907.
1907 NSW BDM #16249 William BLUNDEN
Another of the McGrath children Herbert married Florence Sophia Smith the second youngest child of Martha Scullion and James Smith in 1903 at Wellington. "
1903 NSW BDM #9641 Florence S SMITH
That's quite a lot of NSW BDM certificates needed for validating the info. May I suggest that there is an alternative to purchasing the expensive "real deal" certificates. The NSW BDM website offers the alternative as they have licenced OFFICIAL transcripton agents. :)
These are cheaper and quicker as they come by email attachment :D
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html#transcription
Cheers, JM
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Thankyou all for helping me with the Scullions. I would also like some photos if possible, but perhaps not many to find.
Also looking for info on Ellen Paton - married William Collins.
I think her mother was Ellen Donohoe -married John Paton -son of Robert and Elizabeth Aull.
Has anyone any info on any of these?
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I think William Collins was at Tomingley late 1800's and was then a publican in Sydney returning to Burrendong as punt master early 1900's. Ellen's mothers family elusive.
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To red poppy:- Majm. The record of Michael Scullion and Martha Mullen in that they were married in Ballyscullion, Co. Derry Northern Ireland. This is part of the UK. As is stated Michael Scullion made his mark hence the misspelling. I am from this area and know it well so hope this helps. Also there are a lot of Scullions in this area and the history of the Scullions pre the 14 century is very interesting.
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Is it possible that the brothers were returned to Family in this area. It would mean communicating with the local Church were they were born to explore this line of inquire. The local Catholic church for Ballyscullion is in Bellaghy. Or perhaps ship records. Just a thought.
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Hi,
I'm history seeker sorry I put the family history aside for a few years. I recently received a message that gave me the kick in the backside I needed to finish what I started with my grandma.
Red Poppy hope you're still following this post. I maybe able to help. Martha scullion/ smith is my gggrandmother.
I've managed to find one of the boys James he never married and died in orange due to burns at the age of 80.
This family has had so much tragedy in their lives it's heartbreaking just reading about it.